BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 02:58 PM

I fear that if independence goes forward, they won't be able afford Mother's Pride, let alone national pride.

Before anyone goes off on one, I am saddened by the concept rather than mocking it. To think that as the world gets smaller, global communication and joint efforts, sometimes misplaced, to cure ills and promote harmony encouraged by all... Attempts at parochial nationalism just don't fit the mould.

If Salmond and his mates convince enough people, I won't be laughing at the eventual predicament, I shall be a sad onlooker. Not much GDP in service industries...... Seriously reviewing the property portfolio. I used to think Edinburgh was rock solid but the student accommodation in Morningside has actually gone down in value over the last two years. Fears for the economy then aren't exactly groundless. Not worried for my beer fund, that can look after itself. Just concerned for a place I spend lots of time in and used to call home for a short while years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:10 PM

Don't be sad Ian, I TOLD you we'd give you your nukes back!
Find somewhere else to dump them.

No more adventures in unwinnable wars for Johnny Bull.

"Broken faimlies in lan's we've harried, will curse "Scotlan' the Brave" nae mair, nae, mair."

"Freedom comeallye!" Hamish Henderson.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:34 PM

> No more adventures in unwinnable wars for Johnny Bull.

I hadn't heard that Britain's gone back to conscription....

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 07:05 PM

"but only because the culture of the Gael is in terminal decline." It is of course true that Gaelic (as well as Scots)language culture has declined but there is of course another factor also. I'd imagine that a pretty hefty proportion of folk in the Lowlands are at least of part Highland extraction. For instance my own paternal ancestors came from the Highlands in the late 18thC early 19thC. The Lowlands are filled with Highland names and those who haven't got Highland names probably have Highland ancestors at least somewhere in the female line. There simply isn't really a them and us.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 07:28 PM

"Late in the 19th century 100,000 residents of Cape Breton spoke Gaelic, today fewer than 1,000 speak it in the province," I often wonder about the figures banded about and isn't it true that the Canadian census doesn't even differentiate between Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic. I know wiki gives the figure as between 500 and 1,000 but for instance the attached Nova Scotian site suggests there are less than 500 speakers of Scottish Gaelic left in the whole of Nova Scotia - never mind just Cape Breton. hence if that is so Nova Scotia has a lot less Gaelic speakers per head than even the most un-Gaelic parts of Scotland like the Borders and Northern Isles. Though it is great that the language is still spoken there it probably is true that the only place where Gaelic is a viable community language is in the Western Isles of Scotland.

"Today there are estimated to be less than 500 native Gaelic speakers in Nova Scotia, many of these seniors in the community; whereas 100 years ago there were over 50,000 native speakers. In 1901, Gaelic speakers in some areas of eastern Nova Scotia, particularly in over half of Cape Breton, Gaelic speakers comprised 75 to 100 percent of the population."

https://www.novascotia.ca/oga/pubs/GaelicStrategy-English.pdf


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 07:56 PM

Additional info. from the N.S. Office of Gaelic Affairs:

gaelic in Nova Scotia 

""It is difficult to determine the total number of Gaelic speakers in the province (Nova Scotia) because no formal census specific to the Gaelic community has ever been done. Estimates from the community indicate that there are approximately 2000 speakers of Gaelic. While the numbers of speakers indicates a perilous position for the language, some 227,000 Nova Scotians claim to be descended from Gaelic speaking settlers and a much larger number of Nova Scotians are involved in cultural activities, such as music, song and dance, which stem from the Gaelic language. The Gaelic Nova Scotia study links a $23 million economy with Gaelic and Gaelic-related events, business and activities in the province.

There are 28 Gaelic-related societies, organizations and institutions in the province. Gaelic language instruction is offered in six schools in the province at varying levels. Gaelic Studies is offered in 15 schools and is expanding. There are nine communities across the province were adult immersion learning programs are active and ongoing.""

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 02:55 AM

Again though it depends on what you mean by Gaelic speaker. Re the link below figures supposedly from the Canadian Census

"2. Gaelic in Nova Scotia It is estimated that there are now less than 500 native speakers of Gaelic in Nova Scotia (Gaelic Development Steering Group, 2004, 10; the 2001 Canadian census indicated that there were 415 native speakers of 'Gaelic languages' (which would
presumably include Irish) in Nova Scotia: www.statscan.ca), although this number is supplemented somewhat by people who have learned Gaelic as a second language"

So the figures about 500 actually means there are 415 native speakers of a Gaelic language - and as I previously said the Canadian census does not differentiate between Scottish and Irish Gaelic so the 415 includes any Irish speakers there. When talking about a language community you are generally talking about native speakers. The higher figures which the site you posted suggests no doubt includes people who have learned a wee bit of Gaelic perhaps out of interest perhaps some are pretty fluid. But it isn't the same! I know quite a few people here who learned French and speak it to a reasonable level but wouldn't suggest they are part of a French speaking community in Scotland.

All I'm saying is that on the net you often get people suggesting Nova Scotia is somehow a bastion of Gaelic but the actual figures just don't back it up. Even if there actually 2000 native speakers left it would still only be a small fraction of the Gaelic community in Scotland itself. In truth there are wee parishes in the Western Isles which have more Gaelic speakers than there are in the whole of Nova Scotia.

In Scotland itself within the Gaelic activists (as there was within Scots activists) there were two viewpoints. Some argued that shwoing the real decline gave more emphasis to the need for funding etc. Others argued that by including your Auntie Jessie and her mates who went to a few Gaelic lessons as Gaelic speakers then by exaggerating the numbers you could claim that the community is bigger than it is hence you could argue for more funding.

Personally I support funding for Gaelic but not necessarily how the money is spent. It should be aimed specifically at the heartland and not wasted on window dressing elsewhere in Scotland. In Scotland too some fool themselves. They celebrate the fact that speakers have increased in Edinburgh etc whilst real native speakers in the heartlands continue to decline.

https://www.novascotia.ca/oga/pubs/Minority_Language_Renewal_Gaelic_In_Nova_Scotia.pdf


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 04:22 AM

There must be some form of revival in Gaelic going on as BBC Alba, which I can get down here in London, has kiddies' programs such as Bob the Builder, Thomas the Tank Engine, Peppa Pig and many more all in Gaelic. I was born in Paisley and my father's family came from Mull. My Grandfather spoke Gaelic and, funnily enough, the Mod was held in Paisley this year!
By the way, don't rise to Musket's doom and gloom rants. Have a look at the BBC's website on Scotland's economy. GDP is almost identical with England's and that's without oil and gas revenues. Looking forward to a happy and prosperous New Year and I mean 2015.

The Royal National Mòd (Scottish Gaelic: Am Mòd Nàiseanta Rìoghail) is the most important of several major Mòds that are held annually, mostly in Scotland. It is the main festival of Scottish Gaelic literature, song, arts and culture, and one of the more notable peripatetic cultural festivals in Scotland. It is often referred to simply as the Mòd.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 05:28 AM

I agree with most of the points made by Jim and Allan, but the important point surely is that "the language" was part and parcel of a culture which is no more, a semi tribal culture, based on self sufficiency, a culture that even today could be made sustainable; whereas our present day culture of materialism, consumerism and waste, will be fortunate to survive another few decades.
The never ending search for "energy" will see to that.

I don't see that resurrection of the language in isolation will do any good at all, as most folks today have no understanding of the type of society to which it belonged.
The crofters and fishermen, blacksmiths, masons and their wives and children that I remember were poor in monetary terms, but their heritage of music, stories and "life wisdom" went back a thousand years.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 05:30 AM

There is Jim but the problem is when you look closer at the figures is it the type of revival which is going to halt the decline in native Gaelic speakers? Much of it is window dressing.

The GRO for Scotland site has some pretty detailed stats on the language and reading them more closely shows the problems. For instance between 1991 and 2001 the amount of people who said they could read Gaelic rose by 7% - however the amount who could actually speak it fell by 11%. The number of 5 to 9 year olds who could speak Gaelic rose in the same period - however the figures actually fell in the Gaelic heartlands of Eilean Siar and Skye & Lochalsh. A telling stat is that when both partners are Gaelic speakers you end up with 75% of their children being Gaelic speakers but if only one parent is a Gaelic speaker then only 25% of the children are Gaelic speakers.

It seems obvious that the only way to truly ensure the decline of Gaelic is to halt its decline in its own heartland. Someone, quite often an incomer to Scotland, putting their kids through Gaelic Medium Education in Edinburgh or somewhere else isn't in the long run going to replace another Gaelic speaker lost in the languages stronghold. They should encourage and make it easier for people in the Highlands and Hebrides to put their kids through Gaelic Medium Education and (I know the Highlands are like the Borders in that youngsters will often want to leave for better opportunities) have some real economic regeneration on the islands and western seaboard so there is more opportunity to stay if they want to.

As to gvt strategy! Making the like of Borders General Hospital and other institutions like that throughout Scotland have Gaelic Language Plans etc is silly and probably counter productive anyway. Protecting a langauge in an area where there is no significant community of speakers; where there is no need and no call for the said measures; whilst at the same time ignoring the actual language of that area just doesn't make sense. We should have a single language plan for all of Scotland taking into account both of Scotland's languages and properly earmarking funds rather than wasting them. Just a high horse thing :-)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 05:45 AM

I suspect when the Cdn cencus refers to "native speakers" it refers to a response to a question like, what is your "mother tongue" rather than one that makes some attempt to determine the level of proficiency. I believe it is an attempt to get a general idea of changes in the countries language profile (in particular the French-English mix) rather than be an accurate refection of languages spoken. I suspect the more local provincial estimate may make a more genuine attempt at doing an estimate from their contacts with local sources for info- though there is no accurate figures.

Personally, I know many French speakers who have a greater command of French than those classified as "native speakers" by Statistics Canada's Census-but would not be captured by the Census, as the first language they spoke was not French. It is likely a similar situation - though all one can do is speculate (from either angle) as only indirect numbers have been captured.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 07:00 AM

I think, though, that a learning or relearning of Gaelic will allow an understanding and appreciation of Gaelic literature and song which cannot be anything but good. BBC Alba has some very interesting programs (with English subtitles) and great traditional music and song.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 07:11 AM

Quite agree with you Jim. I'm not in any way saying that someone for instance learning Gaelic in Duns or Kelso is a bad thing so apologise if it kind of comes across as that. It's just that a new Gaelic speaker in kelso does not replace a native Gaelic speaker being lost in the actual Gaelic speaking community. And that, or something like that, is what seems to be happening. The language can only truly survive if native speakers hold on to it.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 07:38 AM

"The language can only truly survive if native speakers hold on to it."

That seems to be the single-approach-theory in Canada, as it relates to French (outside of Quebec and New Brunswick, that is). In that case, concerns with cultural loss are inter-twined with concerns with loss of language. IMO, investing all energies on one theory-approach seems odd, especially when opportunities exist to look at multi-approaches to reduce a total loss through investments in new speakers. But, that seems to miss the purists who cling to the cultural past, whi tend to under value the potential of new approaches.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 08:12 AM

The other NS gvt post I posted said there were less than 500 people in Nova Scotia who spoke Gaelic as a native tongue. That is they learned and speak Gaelic in the home. This of course is only a tiny fraction compared with Scotland. The url below claims there is a total of between 1000 and 2000 people in Nova Scotia who are either native Gaelic speakers or are learners. That is they know Gaelic to some degree. Even if you take the higher figure (so doubling what it might actually be) and ignore the fact that they don't differentiate between Irish and Scottish Gaelic the figures for NS as a whole are still small compared to Scotland. The higher figure is only 0.216% of the Nova Scotia population. There were 78,402 people in Scotland who could either read, write,speak or understand Gaelic which amounts to about 1.537% of the population. The figure for the Scottish Borders, which is one of the places with the least amount of Gaelic speakers, is 0.6%. Hence taking the two NS estimates the Scottish Borders has somehwere between about 5 times to 3 times the amount of Gaelic speakers/learners per head of population that NS does.   

I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing just pointing out the reality!!

http://www.novascotia.ca/cch/stories/gaelic-spirit/?Lang=EN

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 08:23 AM

"But, that seems to miss the purists who cling to the cultural past, whi tend to under value the potential of new approaches."

No it is realistic. Someone learning a bit of Gaelic at a Kelso night school who may never even get the chance to speak with others much outside their class is not replacing a genuine Gaelic speaker living within the Gaelic community. That is common sense. Likewise a kid learning the language for a couple of years in an Edinburgh school then again never much using the language again after that does not replace a genuine Gaelic speaker being lost. It depends on whether you see a language as a living community language or as a relic for hobbysits. No doubt it can be both. No harm in that but I see the living language as of vital importance. It is still a credible living community language in the Western Isles. That is the point!!! As I pointed out before if one parent speaks gaelic then it is only passed on to 25% of their children. For it to survive as a living, working, community language it must survive in families in the community.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 09:03 AM

> For it to survive as a living, working, community language it must survive in families in the community.

Very true. But when families find some other language is more conducive to the lives they wish to live, they discard the old one.

That's true everywhere.

Hebrew was quickly and successfully resurrected as a living, everyday language in Israel because immigrants wanted to speak it as part of a new Hebrew-speaking community.

So language resurrection can happen, but only if large numbers of eager speakers want it to.

After nearly a hundred years of vigorous government and private promotion of Irish Gaelic, English remains the overwhelmingly preferred everyday language in the Republic of Ireland.

Because people would rather speak English.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 09:04 AM

Eliza, above, mentioned those greasy, mutton pies. I order them every now and again from here

Crombies of Edinburgh
97 - 101 Broughton Street
EH1 3RZ Edinburgh
United Kingdom
[e-mail]

They deliver direct to me in London, they phone to make sure you'll be in and the delivery comes in a cool box. Excellent service, 12 plus expensive postage cost about £23.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 10:22 AM

As to my reference to French in Canada, (outside Quebec and New Brunswick) there is a clear decline in children of francophones taking it up as their first language (likely because of the lure of English in society). However, that does not mean that there are not fully bilingual speakers who have learned it in schools. However, "the purists" dismiss these folks,-although many have a better command of French than the francophones- as they do not add to a desire among some to "save the culture". I suspect some of those factors may also be in play (though possibly to a lesser degree) when it comes to Gaelic. However,like many, I am not directly involved and am speculating from past observations (and also my sense, which may or not be common:).

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 12:04 PM

Last post was me

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 12:18 PM

Jim, thank you very much! I had a boyfriend called Crombie when in Edinburgh. I wonder if he opened a pie-shop? And if I received 12 at a time, I just know I'd eat the blooming lot in one go and end up on one of those obese TV shows!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 08:08 PM

...well, where to start? incredible string band,anyone? john martyn (yes, i know...) karine polwart? michael marra? celtic? road to applecross. applecross. scotia bar. celtic connections festival, from where we have just returned - glasgow wonderful and life-affirming as ever. for those of you exiles who miss it, get radio scotland on this machine - always good in the evenings with the folk, jazz and country and old hippy or new singer songwriters music. and if you don't think scotland could prosper without the posh boy millionaire westminster robbers - well, you havn't been there for many years. this is a thriving, confident and politically advanced nation. we don't need your american bombs or racist, little england shite. and get used to the name siobhan wilson.....

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 02:50 AM

Would be a noble abd interesting experiment to see scotland go independent

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:35 AM

By the way, Alistair Darling is also a posh, Westminter boy. He was born in London and educated at the private school Loretto.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:51 AM

Aye and Bonny Prince Charlie was French....

Not wanting to drag this down to argument over independence but if you can't make a case on merit, peoples' background is a bit desperate isn't it? I note the large Polish community in the Edinburgh suburbs have been out forward by Salmond as a shining example of Scottish inclusiveness. Are you saying they shouldn't either vote nor influence then? Darling is a politician involved in the Scottish debate, with a Scottish constituency he democratically represents.

Adam Smith. Now there's a Scottish bloke.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:44 AM

Regarding the Mod, when I lived 'up there', I'm sure I remember a little Indian or Pakistani girl winning the children's recitation section. Her Gaelic was beautiful and her delivery perfect. I also seem to remember a bit of controversy (ie racism!) about it. In those days, there were dozens of enterprising immigrant families opening grocery stores and running grocery delivery vans around the Isles. Good for her, I say.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 07:09 AM

As I type this there's a haggis in the oven, should be ready in an hour. Get in!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 07:21 AM

Musket makes the point, correctly, that it's the people who live and work in Scotland, irrespective of nationality, who are able to vote for the future of Scotland. I was merely pointing out that the 'posh Westminster, privately educated boys' pejoratively described by Labour and the SNP are not all English, Scotland has it's share.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 09:57 AM

> people who live and work in Scotland, irrespective of nationality

And who have no sentimental attachment to a fortunately superseded and innately tyrannical clan system.

BTW, why would Scottish independence be such a "noble and interesting experiment"? The American Revolution replaced overseas, dictatorial colonial rule with constitutional democracy. Is that the sort of improvement that Scottish independence would bring?

Just asking.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 09:58 AM

I totally agree with you Lighter. You can give a language a fair deal and a level playing field but that doesn't mean you force it on anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 10:02 AM

I think the difference between Gaelic and French is that the French language itself is not in danger of extinction as a living community language anytime soon. Hence me harping on about losing native speakers of Gaelic.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Stu
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 10:46 AM

"By the way, Alistair Darling is also a posh, Westminter boy."

Does being born somewhere apart from Scotland make him any less Scottish if he considers Scotland home?

Not trying to start an argument, just wondering where we draw the line when regarding someone has having an equal voice in the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 10:47 AM

Stu, read my previous post.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 11:04 AM

I agree, Allan. I hated to see Cornish go. But that doesn't mean there would be any benefit in trying to resurrect it that would override the expense, inconvenience, and (let's face it) isolating and exclusionary effect of having everybody in Cornwall speaking it.

The world requires easier and more understandable communication, not less.

It always has, but the need in the eighteenth century was presumably less urgent.

It would be cool to be fluent in Pictish. But beyond that, why bother?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 12:19 PM

Yer welcome, G.

Very interesting discussion! A lot of great comments and knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:06 PM

"Aye and Bonny Prince Charlie was French...." Wasn't he more British/Italian on his father's side and Polish/German on his mother's side. Born and brought up in Italy. Certainly when he refused to carry on with the rising Lord Elcho (I think) supposedly shouted something like "there you go for a damned Italian coward"

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 04:41 AM

I recall having to know a bit about him for a history paper forty years ago, and yes, the mixed (inbred) lineage is something I do remember for some obscure reason.

My "French" accusation was based on a combination of where he plotted and that as a result, for many years, French and Foreign were colloquially interchangeable. Lampooning of him by the English at the time seemed, according to what I recall being told, his Italian attributes when pointing out his diminutive size and French when questioning his sexuality.

Xenophobia seems to have a noble tradition......

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 05:25 AM

I have no doubt that gaelic will and likely has ended as being a language of the people. I suspect its future willn take a different path. If it survives in some form, I suspsct the main hope if through new and different routes than in the past,

There are abiriginal (First Nations) languages that have been very close to being lost. T
Fortunately, through interest from academics, strives have been made to save these languages, and new interest and pride in those communities to encourage their use, even with the lure of the dominant English language. Will there be long term success?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 05:58 AM

on the other hand

its cold
when its not cold you get bitten by midges
it rains a lot
its a long way away
they talk a bit funny

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 07:02 AM

Climbing the Waverley Steps from the station, the wind whistles through you like a knife. If you can survive that, you'll manage to withstand the cold. If not, turn round and get the next train south!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 08:24 AM

Scotland in the historical period has always been multi-lingual so we haven't really had a language 'of the people' probably until the modern period when Scottish Standard English is certainly understood by virtually everyone bar some new immigrants. So I never suggested that Gaelic was or should be the language of the people. However in certain communities it still is a living vibrant language. For instance in Eilean Siar 18,423 out of 25,745 people have Gaelic language ability according to the 2001 census. The number of people with the language dropped from 19,738 in the 10 years since the 1991 census. However this wasn't necessarily down to a drop in speakers per head of population. It was as likely down to a drop in the population from 28,569. There is a new Highland Clearance going on as people head elsewhere looking for opportunities. All I'm saying is a real regeneration of Scotland's rural areas including the Gaelic speaking areas enabling people more easily to stay in their locality would help with the preservation of the language as a living community language rather than it being an academic subject only or a hobby. The same goes for other areas etc. I know people who can't get away from the Borders quick enough but I've known plenty of others who'd have loved to have stayed had they the opportunity for work.

Some might say why bother? That is fair enough. Why bother trying to preserve the panda? Or ancient buildings etc? You either think something is worth the saving or you don't!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: bubblyrat
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 08:48 AM

I still have fond and vivid memories of travelling up to Arbroath on the night sleeper train ( to play at a military band contest at HMS Condor) , and being at anchor off Lossiemouth ,and going ashore for a pint or two in "The Steamboat" , and passing the Old Man Of Hoy early on a summer's morning , aboard aircraft carrier HMS Eagle (1967/68 ).Visiting Edinburgh by sea was different , too ; we (and Canadian carrier HMCS Bonaventure ) secured to buoys below the Forth Bridge ,and "libertymen" were landed by Fleet Tender at South Queensferry . I shall refrain from commenting too deeply on Danube Street ,but it was interesting (architecturally , of course ).

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 09:10 AM

Well, if you breed pandas, you get pandas. If you preserve ancient buildings, you have the buildings.

And people from all over can enjoy the pandas and the buildings.

But if you encourage a population to learn and speak a complex language they know little about and have little practical use for, you'll simply annoy most of them. In the long run you may get some great works of literature, but the writers of that literature would presumably write it anyway - except it would be in the other language.

And if you do succeed in re-establishing the language in a serious way, you'll have set up one more barrier, limited or not, between one ethnicity and everyone else in the world. Is it worth it?

I'm completely in favor of teaching moribund languages as an educational elective for interested students: that's how it's done with Latin, which is arguably deader than Gaelic. And it's deader
despite the efforts of the Vatican, which keeps coming up with cumbersome "New Latin" terms for things like smart phones.

But using limited funds and class time to train a nation to fluency in a new language that few feel a need for, and then expect them to speak it every day, sounds like a romantic-nationalist (even reactionary) fantasy offering few advantages to anyone but hobbyists and the makers of textbooks.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 10:24 AM

I agree, Lighter, that language evolves naturally, and by means of actual speakers. One can't force it; it either survives, changes or dies. But Latin is a different matter. It isn't completely 'dead' in that it forms the basis of all the Romance languages and a good proportion of English too. Understanding the meaning of Latin 'root' words and word-parts helps us increase our vocabulary. I chose to study French, Linguistics and Phonetics at Edinburgh Uni, and to my horror (and that of my teachers) we found Latin 'O' level was de rigeur in order to be accepted on the course. (The old 'Attestation of Fitness') I spent my 2 yrs in the sixth form cramming Latin and wading through Caesar's Gallic Wars. But I'm so glad I did. It's amazing how it's helped me in many literary matters. But regarding actually enforcing a spoken but dying lingo, well you can't! Interesting to know what people here think of the situation in Wales, where, I understand, it's pushed to the fore in schools and in the media etc.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 10:28 AM

"But if you encourage a population to learn and speak a complex language they know little about and have little practical use for, you'll simply annoy most of them."

Except I'm not suggesting that people are encouraged to learn and speak any language. Actually I am kind of saying the opposite. Money is spent and wasted at the moment on a lot of window dressing. For instance making companies and institutions in places like the Borders have Gaelic language plans. It is not needed and as you suggest not wanted. All I am saying is that there is an existing Gaelic speaking community in certain areas of Scotland and they, along with rural people in non-Gaelic speaking areas, should be helped to stay working in these communities if they prefer. Invest in rural communities. I'm saying spreading it around. Not everyone need go and work in the eastern central belt! Or move to England or abroad. All I am saying is the best way to keep Gaelic as a living language is to help the existing Gaelic community prosper in their heartland.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:35 AM

I agree with that 100% Allan.
I think, before long, small self -sufficient communities will spring up all over Scotland
The population's disgust and disillusionment with big government is very evident.
But it will never happen without independence.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 02:40 PM

state of languages 

While the plight of Gaelic is a legitimate concern, nthere are many world languages in a sorry state, as indicated by this UNESCO map (and quite a few are in developed countries,)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 07:07 PM

There are many languages in in the world under pressure. That of course is true. I don't quite understand what you are getting at though in that last post. Should we not concern ourselves too much with the preservation of the Scottish wildcat because while that is a legitimate concern the rhino and other mammals elsewhere are also under pressure?

I'm just finding it a bit weird that on a folk music forum some people seem to have a wee bit of an issue with the idea of people trying to safeguard the linguistic aprects of their country's culture. Generally in Scotland the vast bulk of people interested in folk music tend to also be interested in other aspects of the culture too.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 07:48 PM

"I don't quite understand what you are getting at though in that last post"

I am not "getting at" anything beyond sharing information related to a topic that I participated in. I am puzzled by your odd reaction and interpretation of this common occurance of information sharing on mudcat? I am not challenging your concern for the futurev of this or any language, as it is a concern I share.

Maybe you missed it, but my previous posts indicated that people are aware, concerned and are trying to do something about declining languages (btw, gaelic is also listed on the map, if you choose to look) at different levels While you seem to have downplay some of these focused efforts, maybe they will in the end have as much, or more of an impact than relying on traditional speakers and culture, that are currently facing poor odds from change. Will these languages ever recover to former use, unlikely. Can their richness be preserved, possibly yes for some through a variety of approaches.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 Reasons to love Scotland
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 07:57 PM

100! How nice, to have gone from a "bit o`fun" OP to an interesting and cilvilized discussion. I'm pleased. Well done, Mudcatters.