BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:59 PM

"She said its quite unimaginable, what people are having to live through. Apparently its like driving through the sea.

totally unforgiveable. London governance at its grossest."

That's rich! London is to blame for the worst weather since 1760.

They really should have known it was going to happen every 254 years.

If that's Scottish logic, God help them!

Bottom line, I don't care if Scotland leaves. I'll be English again.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 04:19 PM

On a lighter note, I've just bought a special nightie for my visit to my sis in August. I call it my Scottish Nightie. It's long and made of thick winceyette. Should keep me warm. Sis is disgusted; she says I've become soft and a wimp from too long down here, and that August is warm up there. Ha ha, I doubt it!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 01:20 PM

From one of Scotland's greatest socialists, and a special hero of mine.

The rose of all the world is not for me.

I want for my part

Only the little white rose of Scotland

That smells sharp and sweet—and breaks the heart.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 01:19 PM

It's called self determination, Musket, hence Scots living outside can't vote but Englishmen/women, Chinese, Welsh .... I could go one, all will be able to vote.
And Eliza, if you're happy with the way things are, then vote no. I see the NHS in rUK is gradually being sold off

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 12:38 PM

You are correct Jim, this is not simply a "nationalist" issue.
My son, who works for the "Yes" campaign, says that there are large numbers of traditional Labour voter and some Labour Party members, who intend to vote for independence.

Of course N.A.A.N.T.A.....would like people to think that only SNP voters want independence. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 12:21 PM

My sis also said in her fuming email that they're finding it nigh on impossible to recruit any docs or consultants at Ninewells Dundee until this situation is clarified. Scotland seems to be a no-no for filling vacant hospital posts at present.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 12:07 PM

The NHS pension scheme in England is unfunded. I always assumed the Scottish one was too? My better half had to get her house years in Edinburgh transferred when she moved, but I assumed it was an accountancy move, not a monetary transfer.

It could be an issue. Already, Jersey, Isle of Man.. They have trouble recruiting doctors as the NHS pension situation is complicated, and with the rules altering it will be even harder to sort out.

Although The NHS pension scheme is not as attractive as it was, it still beats other schemes open to higher paid NHS staff. Unless Scotland NHS have a pension pot, it is another huge drain on the coffers. (The CHD, cancer, substance misuse is another huge disproportional drain on NHS Scotland too, but I digress.)

Jim. You say it isn't a nationalist issue? What else can an attempt to form an independent nation be but nationalist? Watch out that by sitting with the men in bowler hats that they don't thank you for delivering their agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 11:52 AM

Eliza, don't just listen to the scaremongers and doom and gloom merchants. Douglas Frazer is an independent economist and writes in his BBC blog ..

An independent Scotland could delay the rise in the state pension age by 12 years, according to economic analysis.
It could benefit from a lower cost of providing pensions as Scots, on average, have shorter lives than the rest of the UK (rUK).
The data suggests those receiving private pensions in Scotland could be helped by higher yields on their government bond investments.

This man has no axe to grind and is totally independent and has nothing to do with Alex Salmond. Again don't forget that after independence Slamond may not be in government.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,G
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 10:59 AM

The true facts of Scottish Independence!

Yes Jim I assume it is trust too. The ditty was composed by WILLIAM DUGUID

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 08:53 AM

My sis (hospital doc in Dundee) has just sent an e mail saying she's very worried about her pension should Scotland become independent, as she retires in 2 yrs' time, and has worked her whole medical career in Scotland. She says many of the consultants are looking to put their pensions in offshore accounts, as there are doubts as to whether pensions could be afforded to be paid by the new 'state'. In her opinion it would be disastrous for Scotland. She says Salmond is a tricky guy and a lot of what he promises just couldn't happen. She's a feisty lass, but I've never known her as angry as this!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 08:50 AM

Nice one Jock!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 08:42 AM

Giok, excellent! I assume the last word was a typo for "trust".

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 08:14 AM

EPISTLE TO ALISTAIR DARLING

Wee, sleekit, glowerin', troublous Darling,
O what a panic's set thee snarling!
Thy bare-faced claims we can't use sterling
Dinna convince.
The imprecations thou keep'st hurling
Are full o' mince.

I ken wherefore thou art sae crabbit,
Thy fizzog like a startled rabbit,
Thy point of view sae parched and scabbit,
Thine aspect grim.
Faith! Thou maun earn a handsome habit
Wi' ermine trim.

I doubt na but thy denigration
O' Scotia's self-determination
Is based on wild imagination,
Or pauchlin' lies!
Such mischief bears its indication
In blinkin' eyes.

Thy Project Fear has fallen tae ruin!
The Cybernats gave it a doin',
Noo all deride its idle spewin'
O' stories strange,
And bold September's wind's ensuin':
The wind o' change!

Thou saw Carmichael, bare and wast,
And moothy Sarwar, speakin' fast,
And Michael Moore, in ancient past,
For mercy plead,
By Nicola's scything wit outclassed
And left for deid.

O Grand Panjandrum o' Finance,
Wha reads White Papers at a glance,
Whose style o' banking governance
Was fair found wantin',
It's nae surprise we look askance
At a' thy rantin'!

Gowk, thou maun learn the lesson plain:
Thy negativity is vain,
Awa' back hame and think again,
Thy scheme's agley.
An' nought remains but grief and pain
On voting day!

How drab thy lot, compared wi' me!
Westminster only toucheth thee,
And, as I backward cast my e'e,
It turns tae dust,
While forward, though I canna see,
I hope and true!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:58 AM

Musket, this is not just a nationalist issue. I am not a nationalist, and there are many groups wanting independence who are not nationalist .. the Greens, Labour for Independence, Women for Independence, Scottish Socialist Party .. The NO campaign focusses on Get Alex Salmon, listen to Alistair Darling who cannot talk for two minutes without mentioning Salmon and the SNP about three times in every sentence. They have no argument argument against independence and continually project fear and doubt, nothing positive.
Van, you've just admitted reading the Sunday Post .... shame on you!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Van
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:52 AM

Giok,
Surely after a yes vote it would be the English army and you could fight against them.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:41 AM

But Davie Cameron says he loves us!.....Says even the Tories love us!

How much did they love us when we were given the "billet doux" of the Poll Tax, or when our industries were being decimated in favour of "financial services"?

Let them kiss oor erses fur a chinge!!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:31 AM

Whst would the British army do without the 5 Scots battalions, as cannon fodder?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:03 AM

The UK is a member, as per the treaty of Rome.

The UK isn't going to disappear regardless of the vote. The only uncertainty is whether Scotland would get automatic entry as it is presently part of a member.

Incidentally, Spain did ask, hence promising the veto to prevent a precedent for Catalonia.

I genuinely want the people of Scotland to exercise their opinion. I just can't see how they can whilst a tissue of lies props up the yes vote and you get labelled by being in the no camp.

If Scotland wants the pound, it was made quite clear that therefore Scotland would be subjected to British currency control. Interest rates etc. If it wants the Euro, it will have to be a member of The EU. Cameron is going out of his way to not spell it out as that would be seen a a threat.

Whilst ever silly misty eyed petty nationalism sees reality as a threat, they do the people of Scotland a huge injustice. Independence may have its benefits, but I have yet to see a costed possible advantage put forward.

One Scotland eh? You can't even support football teams without religious lines getting in the way. You get almost as many orange marches as Northern Ireland and you speak of one Scotland.

Defence? Fiscal policy? Salmond has the answers, he just hasn't asked if The UK will do as he asks yet.

Keep banging the rocks together. Petty nationalism is a thing of the past. But there again.........

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Van
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 06:44 AM

Jim reading Our Willie in the Post doesn't qualify you as an economist

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 04:36 AM

So, Musket, you must be the only person in the UK that knows for sure the position of the RUK and Scotland regarding entry/exit from the EU after independence. Westminster could find out tomorrow if it applied for clarity, only Westminster can, but silence .. just posturing.
Switzerland is an interesting case in point. There are so many bilateral agreements between them and the EU that the Swiss, who are not members, seemeto be able to negotiate their way round almost any supposedly EU restrictions.They have accepted the freedom of movement of people but the recent referendum, closely, came out in favour of restrictions. This was met with "possible" trade sanctions from the EU.
Scotland could stay with OUR pound or peg a new currency to the EURO which has kept its strength agains the Dollar and GBP (and Swiss Franc) or it could even join the EURO which I think will happen eventually, even the rUK will join. Staying with Sterling I think is the pragmatic way forward, for the time being.
Van, you want to take a look at Scotland's economic position by doing a bit of reading away from the mainstream rags who are all opposed to independence. Have a look at Scotland's balance sheet, compare Scotland's GDP ratio to a share of the current debt and that's just for starters .. all this can be found at a touch of the button.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 04:08 AM

It would appear the immigration vote in Switzerland was just enough to give a mandate for something The EU don't like. So.. Access to free markets, movement of people, etc are at risk for Switzerland.

If Scotland gets independence, it will have to apply to join The EU. Spain's veto apart, there would be a long period where Scotland was similar to Norway, Switzerland etc, subject to EU rules if they want to survive but not able to influence in any way.

Let me repeat. The United Kingdom is not at risk. The United Kingdom will still be a member of Europe, so any new application is an application. If it were at risk, it's inhabitants would be given a referendum on splitting it. It would be far more responsible for the Scottish Yes campaign to factor in reality rather than promising haggis it hasn't even gone out on the moors to catch yet.

Hence my observation that Mr Salmond wishes to be bound by EU in order to exist at all, but seems happy not to be able to influence it. As Switzerland is waking up this morning to find out. (Any application by any new country would need a German vote in favour too. Forget all this being bound by the Bank of England. It's either Euro or get stuffed. Out of interest, I would welcome the Euro in The UK but that's another story.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Van
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 03:47 AM

"Scotland has a sound economy" only if you believe Wee Eck. Share out the national debt and the money the Scottish banks owe and yes vote gives you a bankrupt country.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 05:37 PM

Shouldn't that be "The low road"?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 05:11 PM

Dr Johnson"The noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England!"

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 03:02 PM

Musket, all your arguments are based on weird misplaced beliefs. "Salmond wants all the rules but none of th say" what the he'll does that mean? And where does xenophobia come in? "The Scottish experiment in Utopia planning is based on good will of others". The Scottish people are as hardworking as anyone else and not sitting on their backsides, living off your taxes. We have a sound economy and the old argument that Scotland is too poor and stupid to run itself has beenblown out of the water a long time ago except for those so blind they cannot see. If Cameron and his crew get into Westminster next time, hopefully an independent Scotland will not be part of it. "Scotland's application will be further away" does not make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 12:35 PM

No problem with government, no problem with being governed by those with a different view to me.

That's democracy.

But the spread of how local governance has to be in terms of what they influence is where we have issues. A Westminster government of one party will hamper a council of the other party etc. It is down to where autonomy lies. I still think it is possible to have autonomy at regional level in regional affairs, local autonomy in local affairs. Yes, Westminster autonomy in fundamental affairs.

Why? Because you can't throw away a system based on the incompetence of those running it. You vote otherwise next time.

The Scottish experiment in Utopia planning is based on goodwill of others. Xenophobia usually means that you don't give foreigners an even break though. Switzerland has a hung referendum result on immigration. They aren't part of The EU, they don't gave a vote in The EU, but if the vote was to go against EU immigration criteria, they would be punished through trade tariffs, freedom of movement, visa restrictions etc.

This is the status Salmond wants. All the rules but none of the say.

Having read Cameron's latest speech, I wouldn't want to be in an "independent" Scotland if he gets a majority government next time. As a UK out referendum wouldn't win, his shallow Col. blimp back benchers would, presumably, force him to veto any further Euro integration.

Scotland's application would get further away.

Sorry, but we can't eat enough haggis or drink enough malt to finance Scotland's public sector, let alone the welfare bill. Especially if EU trade doesn't apply. Tariffs and all that...

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 12:12 PM

a totally unanswerable case, the way you put it Jim.

we all know the UK isn't being run in an efficient manner. Left of centre? well god knows the wealth has to be rested somehow fromthehands of the ultra wealthy and set to work. no country could support an unproductive aristocracy the way we do.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 09:51 AM

Musket, there is not much more Scotland can do. We sent 80% of our MPs as Labout MPs to the Westminster government but the majority of English, Welsh and Northern Ireland MPs put together gave us a Tory led government. Your analogy about running away with the ball is interesting ..... we cannae even get a kick at the noo!
We cannot do much more. Maybe a Independent Scottish left of centre government might show our friends outside Scotland what can be done by kicking out the Tories. Unfortunately they'll have to fight UKIP as well.
I think that's where Scotland scores, we have an alternative.
And, Giok, at the moment our fishermen need a voice at the top table in Europe. Despite two thirds of the UK industry being based in Scotland, Scottish Ministers have not been allowed to speak on behalf of the UK in Europe, even on occasions where the interest is almost exclusively Scottish. This means that Scotland's representatives - who are closest to the needs of the Scottish fishing sector - are not able to ensure that their voice is properly heard.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 08:22 AM

Exactly Mr Musket!

What Somerset is going through now is grounds for a UDI. I was chatting on the phone to Una from No Fixed Abode. They had to drive through Somerset to a gig a couple of days ago, She said its quite unimaginable, what people are having to live through. Apparently its like driving through the sea.

totally unforgiveable. London governance at its grossest.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 04:49 AM

From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 03:48 PM   Was me, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 02:52 AM

Away from the political and economic debates, as they will play themselves out regardless of outcome; I have concerns that Al somewhat alludes to;

A hell of a lot of England have never voted for this lot ruling Westminster either. At least Scotland has a veneer of devolution. We have to put up with a combination of questionable mandate from No 10 coupled with Scottish MPs voting through legislation that only affects England.

So yeah, The UK needs to look at how to maximise democracy. The childish attempts to run away with the ball rather than engage in helping the whole of The UK develop governance does the parochial fools no favours.

Tell me, what percentage of Scottish jobs are public sector?

Interesting...

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: gnu
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 11:21 PM

Big Al... "It only really cares about itself."

Ain't that the shit heard around the world?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 11:06 PM

I suppose the truth is that none of us really know what will happen if Scotland secedes from the UK. one thing is quite certain though, if Scotland does leave us , it will be our fault.

all England is too London centric. Fifty miles outside London and they don't give a damn any industry or infra structure.

In Scotland's case, the Thatcher government really stuck it to them with the poll tax. They won't forget that in a hurry.

Perhaps the answer is for the government in London to secede from the rest of us. It only really cares about itself.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 07:53 PM

The sooner we leave the EU the better.
Europe would still want to buy what we produce, "Scotland" is still a premier brand, the UK is not.
Tourism, whisky, lamb, beef, fish, renewable energy etc...add the wee word "Scottish" and you have something that the world wants.

Anyone know the date for the Independence gathering in Glasgow?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 03:48 PM

"There are many labour supporters who would never vote for the SNP or the Tories but say they will vote YES in the referendum"
That's because the SNP is more socialist than the Labour party. Which in the central belt of Scotland is a religion rather than a political party.
My heart says yes, but my head says. NO WAY.
The majority of the shellfish caught in Scotland, ends up on the tables of France and Spain. However it is caught by French and Spanish boats, and goes directly from Scotland to Europe in fridge lorries. We get SFA all out of it, and our boats are struggling, and declining in number. Should we leave the EC, then they would still want our shellfi8sh, but would have to pay us for it, and thus provide employment, and income, to Scottish fishermen. I mean, even the lorries have long distance fuel tanks, so they can avoid buying fuel in the UK, at our exorbitant prices! So that's one more thing we don't get any benefit from.
They built, at great expense, auction markets in Lochinver, and Kinlochbervie, to sell the catch of Scottish boats. Both markets are now virtually redundant. What a waste of money that was! 25 years ago, they were paying off truck drivers at Lochinver, due to declining catches, don't imagine it's got any better.
EC? Don't make me laugh!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 10:23 AM

Allan, as you say, the Sate's name changed from The United Kingdom of Great Britain by ADDING Ireland to it. There were three kingdoms in 1707, but only two united, the Scottish and the English making the United Kingdom of Great Britain.
The crowns weren't united in 1603 as is commonly stated. All three kingdoms were independent of each other but shared a common king until 1707 when only Scotland and England became politically united, Ireland still being outside this political union as a separate Kingdom with a separate parliament.
If a new United KIngdom is created to go by the name of Great Britain, then surely one can logically say that this new State is a United Kingdom of Great Britian? (pre the joining of Ireland).

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:59 AM

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain as stated in artical 4 of the Acts of Union. Ireland joined the UK in 1801 but left about 120 years later, so you are playing with words but cannot alter the substance."

To be fair though there is a subtle difference in the wordings Jim. In the 1707 Treaty of Union as passed through the Scottish parliament it definitely states that a new United Kingdom is being created and article after article repeats that phrase United Kingdom. However article one deals with the name and specifically states "be united into one Kingdom by the name of Great Britain". It reads to me afterwards that the term United Kingdom is being used to describe Great Britain rather than being part of the official name. However in the 1801 Act with Ireland it specifically states that the name of the new kingdom "shall be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland"

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:40 AM

If you had had a Passport prior to 1921 it would have stated the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In 1927, the country name changed from "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" to "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Example:

British passport

Should Scotland vote for independence then the Union with Northern Ireland would still be in effect, the UK would still be a member of the EU, a member of NATO and bound by all its treaties and alliances.

Scotland by voting Yes in the referendum votes to leave the United Kingdom, an EU member state, so in effect they vote to leave the EU - so expulsion of EU members does not enter into it - you have voluntarily elected to leave.

All of the countries you detail there are bound to adopt the Euro as their currency Lithuania for example will have the Euro by 2017. By the way it started out by having to create its own currency, then revert to it's old pre-soviet currency which they had to peg to the US$ then once recognised it had to peg it to the Euro and it is now in the process of adopting the Euro. There IS no choice - Join the EU the Euro becomes your currency except for the UK and Denmark.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:38 AM

"Alex Salmond and the SNP have been told exactly what the score would be by both the EU and by Westminster and the BOE."

That simply is not so though. The EU has not given any kind of official statement either publicly or directly to the Scottish gvt. There have been some personal opinions by various officials, some high ranking right enough, and lawyers mooted that is all. As to the UK gvt the House Of Commons Library Research Paper came to the conclusion that there is no legal precedent and it will in the end come down to direct negotiations between the Scottish gvt and the EU.

The article in Scotland On Sunday this week suggested that there were various possible options for an independent Scotland within the EU.

1.        Formal sterling currency union with the rest of the UK which is the SNP's favoured choice but of course would need to be agreed by the remaining UK too.
2.        Informal sterling currency union with the rest of the UK though this is seem as problematic and very unlikely
3.        Scotland's own currency fixed. That is pegged to the pound as the punt originally was, or to the Euro as the Danish krone currently is
4.        Scotland's own currency floating.
5.        Euro – a formal currency union
6.        Euro – an informal currency union like Montenegro currently has where that country uses the Euro but is not within the Eurozone. Again viewed as unlikely

"On health and education you do not at present pay for it you contribute towards it,"

Health and education are paid for from the Scottish budget. We contribute to it but the figures show that we contribute slightly more than we are given back. Hence we pay for it.

As to the various other posters suggesting we couldn't afford to go alone. Come one the debate in Scotland has moved well past the "cannae dae it" old arguments where it was suggested Scotland couldn't afford it. No serious commentators now revert to that old tune. It is now in the "is it best tae dae it or no" phase and has been for some time. The subsidy junkie myth was just that a myth!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:34 AM

Sorry, I am using an Ipad and it's so sensitive that I lose my place!
As I was saying, last week's FT showed how well off Scotland is and how much better off with oil and gas revenues it would be. The McCrone report of 1974, commissioned by the then Tory government and then hidden by the later incoming Labour government, said Scotland would be as rich as Switzerland with a pound which would have been the strongest in Europe. This report was kept secret until a couple of years ago when it was revealed under the FOI. The oil and gas revenues were squandered by later Tory and Labour administrations.
At the moment Scotland raise or lower tax by 3% so a different tax system could work now. RUK will not set the tax rates in an independent Sctland, the independent Bank of England will.
So don't kid yourself, Scotland's economy is strong. Have a look at the BBC's web site on Scotland's current GDP compared with the rUK. Whisky contributes 25% of all food and drink export from the current UK and accounts for over £4.3 billion .. I could go on but it has been documented elsewhere many times.
But the main reason for independence is to have a government voted in by the people of Scotland. At the moment, we have a Westmister government run by two parties which came third and fourth in Scotland.

Enough for now.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:16 AM

Some good points Teribus. However, please try to understand words when you use them. The UK's trade within The EU is trade. Two way street. I include imports within that.

Political union is is someways another matter. For a common market to exist, monetary union is beneficial. But for that to exist, interest rates etc need to harmonise, which requires similar GDP spend which required harmonised government spending which requires er...   Political harmonisation.

My view is more trade based than level field based. We cannot even begin to live up to the corruption of Italy or Greece, nor can we have the balls to invest in manufacturing expertise like the Germans.

Scotland doesn't appear to have been given facts on how they will pay their way, nor indeed what they will spend it on. It is difficult to see merit in independence until somebody, not from either side of the battle, sets out what independence means. To date, I see no more than hating Westminster. Not the best argument to hold hands and jump into the unknown. The Scottish Parliament is no less stymied by rhetoric.

Still, I admire the social programme. But there again, Greece used to have a cradle to the grave system worthy of note.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 09:16 AM

My passport says The United Kingom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. .. remove NI from that line and you have The United Kingdom of Great Britain as stated in artical 4 of the Acts of Union. Ireland joined the UK in 1801 but left about 120 years later, so you are playing with words but cannot alter the substance. If either Scotland or England (Wales wasn't a signatory) left, the union would be dissolved so two new states.
On currency, Denmark and the UK had opt outs, Sweden can suit itself as can Bugaria, Czech Republic, Croatia, Lithuania, Hungary, Romania and Poland, who by the way has been in the EU for a number of years and has immediate wish to adopt the Euro.
There are no rules dealing with expulsion of EU members, quite the opposite, look at the state of Ukrain and the EU is desperate for it to join.
Governor Carney made it quite clear that, being independent, the Bank of England would make any arrangement between its members work. Any country going into an arrangement with another would have to cede some of its sovereignty and that applies to England too.He said a currency deal was desirable.
Where do you get the idea that Scotland couldn't affords a health service, education, defence? Read las week' FT where

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 08:28 AM

Rather a lot of twaddle being spouted here on the Independence thing.

"Scotland and England formed the UK so there is no reason to believe that RUK would still exist as the Former UK" - Jim Mclean

The Acts of Union of 1706 & 1707 respectively formed the united Kingdom of Great Britain it did not form the United Kingdom that was formed in 1801 when the official title of the Kingdom became The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

EU membership should Scotland vote yes - Scotland according to the EU President and according to the President of the EU Commission will have to apply for membership. That will be a process that will take at least ten years possibly more. Even having managed to comply with the criteria for joining the matter is ultimately decided by a vote by all current member states and that vote must be unanimous - at the moment excluding the UK I can think of at least six member states that would block Scotland's entry in order that no precedent is set that would challenge their sovereignty.

Musket mentioned trade and how important the EU is to the UK (either with or without Scotland). Nowhere in his argument did I ever see any mention of the EU's trade with the UK feature - Within the EU Britain is Germany's biggest export market - they are not daft enough to cut off their own nose to spite their face. I think about four or five months ago Britain's trade with the rest of the world amounted to something like 56% of the total it is more if you look at where British goods go to from Rotterdam, at the moment as it goes to Rotterdam it is counted as trade with Europe irrespective of the final destination of the goods. There is a ready market for the UK in the anglo-sphere. When I voted last on Europe I voted to join a trading group not a political partnership - I did not vote to join the United Socialist States of Europe where the unelected and the unelectable (Neil Kinnock - Britten - Mandelson) dictate as Commissioners how my country is run.

On currency Alex Salmond and the SNP have been told exactly what the score would be by both the EU and by Westminster and the BOE. Your choices are not great Jim. Only two nations in the EU today can retain their currencies, the United Kingdom ( which will remain being referred to as the United Kingdom even if Scotland leaves in 2016) and Denmark. The deliberate manipulation of criteria by Sweden is just a holding action, ultimately they will either have to join or leave. Prior to being accepted for EU membership Scotland will have to fulfill the financial criteria that Sweden plays about with, if Scotland joins the EU Scotland will have to adopt the Euro - there is no choice. In the interim if Scotland continues to use the £Sterling then exchange rates are set by the UK, its interest rates are set by the UK its international borrowing is governed by the Bank of England. Under these circumstances I would doubt very much if you retained your financial services industry. The last and least desirable would be for Scotland to create its own currency. In which case your path to membership of the EU would take more like 20 years to attain.

On health and education you do not at present pay for it you contribute towards it, after having voted yes you will have to bear all the costs for Scotland's health and education schemes. You do not have to worry about the costs for an air force or for any sort of defence force - you will not have one, none of the voters in the Glasgow/Edinburgh belt will vote for it - taking over 9.4% of Britain's military hardware would act like a millstone around your necks, you simply could not afford to run it.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket forgetting to say Musket
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 04:14 AM

That guest above was me.

Sorry aboot that.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 12:48 PM

You can only leave by referendum or legitimate Parliamentary decision. You can be thrown out for not abiding by agreements, unless you are fucking France but I digress.

Not sure independence by one part of a member contradicts The Treat of Rome. After all, Spain is a member, we are a member and we both claim Gibraltar.

I wouldn't take THAT much pleasure in suggesting Leith gets a coach up for a fact finding trip to Iceland via Ireland.

Some of the comments above remind me of the song from South West Scotland, If it wasn't for the weavers. You can sense them sat around a table nodding to each other about how right they are, how much the economy depends on them. I suppose the big difference is that they weren't indigenous but were from Lancashire.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 11:03 AM

As to the EU thing I think a lot of people faff a bit when speaking about this. The conclusion by many people seems to be that the remaining UK would automatically remain as the existing member with 100% certainty. However the UK gvts own report on that "Scotland analysis: Devolution and the implications of Scottish independence" which was published last year didn't even claim that.....though it did say that it was the probable outcome. Cut and paste below....

"The position of an independent Scottish state and the continuing UK in international law
2.14 Professors Crawford and Boyle set out three possible outcomes under international law for an independent Scotland:
•        The remainder of the UK is the continuing state and would exercise the existing UK's international rights and obligations, and Scotland becomes a new successor state.59
•        Two successor states are created and neither would continue the international legal personality of the UK, which would cease to exist.60
•        The remainder of the UK is the continuing state and Scotland reverts to the status of the pre-1707 Scottish state.61

2.15 As the Opinion makes clear, the overwhelming weight of international precedent suggests that the first outcome is the most likely: the remainder of the UK would be considered the continuing state and an independent Scotland would be a new state.62"

I think it seems pretty likely that would be the outcome and no-one of any prominence in the SNP suggests otherwise in all truth.

We then though get the Unionists who spin the scare stories that Scotland will be kicked out the EU and there would be real difficulties for us etc. Again the UK gvt's own report says it is likely that we would be admitted as new members but that though not a 100% automatic process – it should be a pretty straightforward process and the report's author agreed that the SNPs stated timescale is realistic. We would be applying for readmission but for all intents and purposes applying from within! There would be certain areas where we may or may not get what we want. Blue clicky at the bottom………

So far all we have is opinions as it is a first situation of its kind. I find it strange that the Better Together campaign will troll for spokesmen across Europe who suggest difficulty whilst ignoring the report commissioned by their own UK gvt. Likewise I personally witnessed a local Tory politician suggest that Better Together had found a new ally in the Spanish PM. Sorry but I thought whatever the Scottish people's decision we should all be working for Scotland's benefit. And not applauding foreigners who'd look to trip Scotland up. Especially when the trip wire is being put there not for the Scots but to stifle democracy within Catalonia.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/scottish-independence-blog/2013/feb/11/nicolasturgeon-scotland-treaties-legal

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 10:32 AM

SCOTLAND SMALL? (poem by Hugh MacDiarmid)

Scotland small? Our multiform, our infinite Scotland small?
Only as a patch of hillside may be a cliché corner
To a fool who cries 'Nothing but heather!' where in September another
Sitting there and resting and gazing round
Sees not only the heather but blaeberries
With bright green leaves and leaves already turned scarlet,
Hiding ripe blue berries; and amongst the sage-green leaves
Of the bog-myrtle the golden flowers of the tormentil shining;
And on the small bare places, where the little Blackface sheep
Found grazing, milkworts blue as summer skies;
And down in neglected peat-hags, not worked
Within living memory, sphagnum moss in pastel shades
Of yellow, green, and pink; sundew and butterwort
Waiting with wide-open sticky leaves for their tiny winged prey;
And nodding harebells vying in their colour
With the blue butterflies that poise themselves delicately upon them,
And stunted rowans with harsh dry leaves of glorious colour.
'Nothing but heather!' – How marvellously descriptive!
And incomplete!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 10:16 AM

"From time to time I hear that some little-bitty place wants its independence. I suggest they calculate the costs of the following:an air force a health system a good educational system, from pre-school to post grad."

Leeniea but Scotland already pays for its own seperate educational and health systems. The fundings for those come out of the current Scottish Budget and all the figures show that Scotland still pays in slightly more to the pot than is taken out! As to the Air Force well what we contribute to that is calculated on a per head of population basis - so we currently pay our share of UK Armed Forces. What spending would be done in a future Scotland as far as defense goes would be up to a future Scottish gvt. One can't surmise what future policy would be but I can't imagine an indepedent Scotland would wish to strut the world stage, or pay for nuclear arsenals etc, like we do at present as part of the UK forces. No reason to surmise spending on defense would be more than it is at present surely?
As to the little-bitty place thing well Scotland would be as large or larger than many European countries. By population it would be about 25th out of 40 plus odd countries. So by no means large but also not one of the very small countries!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 09:09 AM

Musket, Scotland and England formed the UK so there is no reason to believe that RUK would still exist as the Former UK (I couldn't bring myself to use an acronym). It can easily be resolved if Cameron would ask the EU for clarification ... only he has the power to do so. Why doesn't he? I think Alistair Darling must be a phenomenal speed reader as his pronouncements on the White Paper were out before the ink was dry.
Pete Jennings, my wife comes from Durham and she always says she just made it!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 08:47 AM

I have read the white paper Jim.

As someone with much to lose or gain, I am taking an interest. I have personally invested in both companies and property north of the border, and a letter the other week from one of the companies said that should business risk he increased by the outcome, the board (of which I am a non executive director) would consider relocating. Not much in itself, although say that to the 67 people who would have to relocate or leave, but many others are looking and waiting. I repeat once again the BP stance.

I would also reiterate that it is right that only those resident should vote but anyone with an interest can and should throw a view.

Out of interest, I hadn't read Darling's withering review of the white paper before I came to many similar conclusions as he did.

The UK would still exist and would not require itself to reapply to The EU. If that were the case, Cameron would welcome Scot independence as a tool for his backbenchers to wield.

Sorry but I remain astonished how blinkered many people are to facts here. If the electorate can sort fact from opinion, then fine but my faith in democracy is borne of necessity rather than reason .....