BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 07:14 AM

Interesting point about the Euro still being strong, Jim. Not so long back it was only worth about £1.45-ish. Now it's been hovering at £1.15 throughout all of the "financial chaos" in Europe. What's that all about? Beats me.

As for Scotland, well, I was born about 22 miles north of Hadrian's wall...in England (!!??). My mother's father was a Cameron, but swore he had no Scots in him, and my father's father was full-blooded Irish from Mayo.

Where's ma troosers? Where are the aspirin??

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 05:17 AM

Musket, you make lots of good points. I have said many times that England should have its own parliament and a possible CONfederation would work (as distinct from a federation).

In an interview with the Financial Times published today (3 February), García-Margallo said: "We don't interfere in other countries' internal affairs. If Britain's constitutional order allows – and it seems that it does allow – Scotland to choose independence, we have nothing to say about this."   

They could, of course, use the veto later but this would exclude their fishermen from Scottish waters ... highly unlikely.

There are many opt outs available but I don't see EU members ejecting Scotland from the EU for I numer of reasons. The rUK would also be a new state and would have to renegotiate subsidies which presently apply to the whole of the UK. I am a firm believer in the EU and see a not too distant future when the Euro will be the common currency. It's quite amazing that even after the financial mess we have seen, the Euro is still very strong.

On defence and other matters, if you're interested enough, I suggest you get a copy of the white paper "Scotland's Future".

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 04:10 AM

England can keep Northern Ireland and Wales,......We will either accept or reject the idea of Scotland as a sovereign nation once again, without any assistance from people to whom the question does not apply

Should our campaign fail, remember Bruce and the spider; we are not going to sit and take the punishment which will surely be handed down "our masters" in Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 03:08 AM

My point over The EU is that with trade funding any and every social welfare infrastructure, parochialism can never be the answer.

I for one don't want to see The UK, with or without Scotland, either hampered by trade tariffs or subjected to EU policies without the benefit of being part of it. And neither do the companies responsible for the tangible tax take.

The relevance of this for Scotland is quite important. Forgive me if I am wrong, but as Spain is adamant that Catalonia cannot do a similar trick to Scotland, they will veto, as is their right, any attempt by Scotland to join The EU. Meanwhile Germany has said any application from current sections would have to be on the basis of The Euro.

I genuinely understand that some people will vote yes because the no campaign is doom and gloom, but ignorance is no reason to create a dog's dinner. I admire many of the social aims of The SNP and applaud their stance on a fair society, especially this week's dismissal of bigotry. But misty eyed independence on terms they physically cannot deliver, I hope the Scottish electorate are more sophisticated than Salmond gives them credit for.

Between now and September, there is ample time to question in between rallying and sabre rattling. I'd start with his promises on Sterling, EU and defence myself.

But quite rightly, although I personally have much to lose or gain, I can't vote. I can give a view though. That view is we should keep The UK but devolve properly, including an England parliament. A Westminster function could be more of a federal responsibility, defence, Sterling, FCO etc.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 07:06 PM

I wish this forum had a rule against members posting as GUESTS,
or GUESTS posting without a "handle"

Its not always easy to work out who one is actually addressing.
Of course it's usually just the same sad troll.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 06:43 PM

OK with me, just as long as you take back all the Westminster MPs with constituencies in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 05:31 PM

I have been hearing this too. There are many labour supporters who would never vote for the SNP or the Tories but say they will vote YES in the referendum. There are so many people fed up with the doom laden, negativity from the NO side, the world will come to an end, the sky will fall in and your puppies will die, we cannot support ourselves, we need the UK, better a Tory government than one decided by us ... why can' t these people shake off the cobwebs, shake the chips off their shoulders, stand upright and take the opportunity to share in a new Scotland, an international Scotland in today's world. The ship is not sinking even though some of the mice are jumping overboard.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 04:52 PM

"First things first", that's how I see it too Jim.

Amazing how we are denigrated as scroungers, yet the denigrators seem desperate to hold on to us within the Union, none of their arguments make sense. :0)

One of my sons works for the "yes" campaign and says that there is a definite move for independence in the wind.
I noticed this about a couple of months ago, the Scottish electorate are not ALL contributors to Twitter, Facebook, or other media whorehouses.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:45 PM

What I'm saying Akenaton is that at the moment we have three tiers of governance 1) Brussels, 2) Westminster, 3) Scotland. With independence we can at least cut out one level of government. There are other options, of course, EFTA. After independence Scotland could have a different type of administration and questions of republicanism, different currency etc., can be considered. look at countries which have left the UK .. Ireland, Australia, New Zealand ... they all kept Sterling for quite a while, 20, 30, 40 years before having their own currency. First things first IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 03:23 PM

I agree with Giok here Jim. Although I will be voting "aye", I don't see how Alex can say we are a fully independent country if we are still tied to the legislators of Brussles.

Membership of the EC is highly unpopular in the UK as a whole, folks just don't like our social and economic rules determined by a shower of faceless bureaucrats, I don't see how it will be any more popular in Scotland. Look at the huge advances made by UKIP on this one issue alone!
UKIP of course have also been talking about nationalising the banking system and re-nationalising many public utilities....a stance that the first sovereign Scottish government might consider adopting?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 02:16 PM

Musket, Scotland is advocating staying in the EU so I don't understand the rationale of your last post. I was pointing out to Giok that joining the Euro is not a done deal after independence. As you know, there is a scenario that should Scotland votes NO, the UK government could take us out of the EU. Again, I believe that independence gives Scotland a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: gnu
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 01:48 PM

"The planet is small."

United we stand...... ?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 01:12 PM

Interesting.

I personally would consider stopping work and start my pension if we, UK that is, left The EU.

Before I sold up etc I was group CEO of a group of manufacturing companies and personally owned the UK operation. I cannot and will not accept the stupid gormless parochialism that surrounds the UK out campaign.

Fine.

But forget your welfare programmes, forget your benefits, NHS, state pensions, state funded care etc.

Without trade we are fucked.

Before anybody mentions Norway etc, they are bound by EU dictats but no vote. It's the price of tariff free trade.

The UKIP and Tory argument is as damaging to The UK as independence is to Scotland.

I don't mind paying 45% tax funnily enough. I resent ignorant twats making contributions irrelevant in the long term though. If you don't understand trade, don't talk about The EU as if it is a burden. Considering US tariffs, The EU is the only reason we can afford to exist.

The UK of old relied on a combination of industry and military muscle in The Empire. The former is tenuous, the latter a stain on our history.

The planet is small.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 01:04 PM

Giok, Scotland doesn't have to join the euro. Look at Sweden's position.

Sweden does not have an opt-out from the euro but did not join ERM II and thus deliberately failed to fulfil the criteria for introducing the euro. Sweden later voted against euro introduction in a referendum in 2003, and the issue is currently dormant. The European Commission and the European Central Bank have stated they would tacitly accept this derogation for the time being. Swedish governments have repeatedly stated they will only introduce the euro after a referendum approving this move has been held.

At least with independence Scotland has a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 11:30 AM

Financial services, tourism, and whisky, contribute vast amounts to the UK tax take, we don't just rely on oil, albeit, "a nice little earner"
I shall be voting no, because I want out from under the thumb of Brussels, far more than the thumb of Westminster. Wee Fish is desperate to remain a part of the EC, and should he win independence, I have no doubt that Brussels will insist we adopt the Euro, as a quid pro quo, before letting us join their swindle machine.
So It's a no brainer for me. I want out of the EC, while we still have some fish, and fishermen left.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 08:32 AM

Aye and look at how much the Scottish economy depends on oil.

Note my comments on an earlier thread regarding BP buying up coastal brown field land in Geordieville.

Taking the piss out of Salmond's shaky economic plans to pay for his social programme isn't helpful to either side in the debate.

As isn't cherry picking forecasts that happen to a) support one side and b) be in the minority. I'm looking at you Gutcher...

Those with the responsibility of a vote need to start getting good at separating the wheat from the chaff.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 08:25 AM

Midges - Try Skin So Soft lotion by Avon. Works wonders but it is difficult to get hold of as most is bought up by the Scots :-)

Scotch pies - OK baked but wonderful deep fried. Heart attack waiting to happen though.

I usually leave Scotland when we run out of things to drink :-) We are going in 2 weeks so I will see how long we last this time. Hopefully at least 2 days!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Feb 14 - 08:02 AM

The recent comments from Bob Dudley of BP got tremendous media coverage. Have a look at the real Bob Dudley here.
http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2014/02/05/bob-bob-bobbing-along/

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,gutcher
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 07:53 PM

For those who are in any doubt about handouts from Big Brother I would refer them to the recent Financial Times article which details the relative facts about where an independant Scotland would stand relative to our Southern neighbours. From memory {it being too late at night to check the article] it shows that every man woman and child in Scotland would be £1300 better off with independance.
Even the most rabid pro-no voter would not claim that the F.T. is a paper with a strong Scottish bias.
The article can be accessed on the site "Wings Over Scotland" under the heading "Unleashing a Firestorm" or on the F.Ts own web site for Sunday 2/2/14.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 04:06 PM

Davie is a great Scot who loves his country and his culture
Davie hates hypocrisy!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 04:04 PM

Davie Robertson..... one of Scotland's finest songwriters.

Kilts.
The modern confection of kilt, Prince Charlie jacket, and big white socks bears
about as much resemblance to authentic traditional Highland dress as the
Papuan penis-sheath. Quite apart from that, it seems to me that wafting the
tartan around is a poor substitute for working at a real culture.


Although ma country I revere,
Juist let me make yin thing quite clear:
I'll say withoot a trace o guilt,
Ye'll never catch me in a kilt!
Away amang the Hielan peaks,
When Hielan laddies wore nae breeks,
Insteid a substitute they made –
A garment ca'ed the belted plaid.
An this affair, when richtly duin,
Claithed erse an shooders aw in yin.
It let ye climb hills at the gallop,
An when in need required nae ballop.
But then some joker, for a laugh,
Cut the hail shootin-match in half,
Then tucked it roond his nice white shirt,
An made his-sel a kin o skirt.
The Hielanders then didnae care
Tae wear the damn thing ony mair,
An donning overalls on their crofts,
Left kilts tae Yanks, pipe bands, an toffs.
Yet here in this degenerate age,
Noo wearin kilts is aw the rage,
An lads wi legs like pluckit chookies
Are wrappin kilts roond their bahookies.
Tae weddins they resort in flocks
Wi cute wee daggers doon their socks;
An no, yer auld een dinae fail ye –
Deid badgers ower their genitalia!
As Heilan chief ye'll shairly make it,
Togged oot in a Prince Chairlie jaiket;
And awbody kens that real hard cases
Wear dancing pumps wi criss-cross laces.
They think that warriors they resemble –
The very sicht wuid make ye tremble;
But no wi fear! For nae sicht dafter,
E'er made man pish his-sel wi laughter.
These buggers must be oot the box,
Paradin roond in big white socks!
God help sic puir bare-leggit losers:
I'll rest content wi wearin troosers!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 03:34 PM

The handouts will remain though. The difference being

A) we will put it on the foreign aid budget

B) It will have to rise.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 11:09 AM

A yes vote for Scottish independence will benefit more than just Union hating Scots.

I'll be very pleased to be able to call myself English again and have a government composed of my own countrymen.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 11:05 AM

Scotlands existing educational system is already one of the worlds best.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 10:33 AM

From time to time I hear that some little-bitty place wants its independence. I suggest they calculate the costs of the following:

an air force
a health system
a good educational system, from pre-school to post grad.
=========
I've been to the Highlands twice and met no mosquitoes or midges. They don't occur all the time, you know. And I didn't see tartan everywhere, either.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 09:32 AM

I do like all the tartans. Mine is a very nice dark green and black affair. But the tartan thing can go too far. Not a reason to leave, but a bit irritating, for example Balmoral; tartan curtains, sofas, wallpaper, carpets, cushions etc etc ad nausea. My Scots friends up there used to moan that we English stereotype them as tartan-kilt-wearing funny-speaking bagpipe-playing haggis-eating people, but they ARE like that. They brandish their Scottishness at visitors like anything.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 08:08 AM

Whilst I'm at it. One thing the SNP led government is putting right is today's final debate which will result in equal access to marrying your loved one.

Welcome to civilisation my tartan admiring neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 07:42 AM

Just so long as a reason to leave Scotland doesn't become because you work for BP eh? (Not to mention silicon glen.)

I love haggis. I don't mind grease pies occasionally and shortbread isn't that bad either.

No, the food wouldn't be a reason to leave. (Last year, dined in three Michelin starred restaurants in as many nights.).

I don't like being bit, so arrange walking holidays to avoid them. Friend in Fife don't get to see us during winter either. Back in the '80s I ran a depot in Airdrie for a while and lived in a hotel four nights a week in Stirling. I was rather sad to leave and even considered taking the manager job there and giving someone a stab at my own national job. Glad I didn't because once the steel and precast industry started dying off, the company (I'd moved on by then) dropped their presence in Scotland.

In Edinburgh next week actually. (Assuming I can leave France. We are getting good snow here in Tignes and the roads down the valley.....)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 07:41 AM

"How come only the Scots get to vote on whether Scotland should leave the Union?"       ????????????????
This seems very unfair and un-democratic! The English and Welsh should have every right to vote themselves out of the Union as well!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 07:25 AM

Yes, Gutcher, for example in Sunday's Observer Will Hutton first called the SNP the Scottish Nationalist Party, not the Scottish National Party and writes "...... along with its purported high values, bubbles some atavistic and unloved hatred of its southern neighbours."
It has been observed elsewhere that this campaign for Scottish Independence has been carried out without even a bottle being thrown, no hatred, in fact there are many Englishmen and women living in Scotland who say they will vote for Independence, underlining Guther's post.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,gutcher
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 06:30 AM

One of my sisters mentioned a recent conversation she had with her son-inlaw, a Southener, who drives weekly in his homeland and he claims that he cannot return there to live as he could not afford the cost.
He dreads a no vote in the coming referendum as he reckons Westminster will put the boot in and reduce us to the level of his not so beloved homeland.
His is a view shared by many of my English friends living here.

For bile and racist comments T.B. should read the forums attached to any article on Scotland printed in the English press, these I now no longer read but I am sure J. McL. can confirm that if they were refering to any other ethnic group the race relations board would find themselves working overtime.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 06:15 PM

Ah'm teetotal mahsell noo Tattie, so ah widnae know...:0)

Dublin's rerr, ah wis oan holiday therr in 1965, went tae O'Donohues an aw the venues tae hear wit thae ca'ed "the ballads"
Hope yer enjoyin' yersell.....wish ah wis therr fur the terr.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: John J
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 06:05 PM

Scotland is a wonderful place, I backpack through the Highlands every May - just before the midges get seriously active. Sadly, the deer ticks are very active - especially in the west / central Highlands.

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 05:58 PM

Whisky - no e - shame on you Ake (says she in Dublin richt noo, where it dis hae an e!)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Bert
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 04:48 PM

...Especially the Glaswegians...

I stand corrected Brian.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 04:21 PM

In my youth deer were uncommon in these parts, the Forestry Commission keepers culled them to protect the young trees; subsequently the deer kept to the high tops even in winter.
The sheep ticks would grow to about the size of ones finger nail if left in position....working dogs always had a few.

There is nothing I don't like about Scotland, we still have a national identity, against all the odds, beautiful scenery, a varied climate and best of all a scurrilous, double dealing, parasitical "Auld Enemy", who have become so fond of our haggis and whiskey, that they just can't bear to live without us!
Dream on Sassenachs!!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 01:45 PM

In my last house, many deer visited my huge garden. (Not in Scotland, but 'bear with me', as they say) I often had ticks attached to my legs, which I merely pulled off. Then, I got a typical 'bullseye' inflammation and fled to my GP. He quickly prescribed antibiotics, telling me that in Norfolk, Lyme disease from deer ticks is endemic. Luckily, blood tests after the event were negative and I heaved a sigh of relief. There were never any sheep in my garden. My sis (the doc) told me that the red deer up there carry ticks with Lyme disease.
Another reason to leave Scotland and live in Norfolk are things called Hills, and Mountains. I like it Flat, thank you!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 01:18 PM

Can't think of a single reason to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 06:53 AM

Doc.Tom, it's called self determination, only the people living and paying taxes in Scotland can vote, irrespective of nationality. Can you imagine how Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia would have fared if all of Russia had a say in their independence?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 06:33 AM

tics are nasty, they have a special little tool in A and E for extracting them.

talking of little tools.....

Have you ever read Forum, the magazine for things related to sex. There was once this story about a boy scout (a rover) who went commando style wearing his kilt to the continent on holiday. Anyway he went all through France and Germay satisfying the curiosity of everyone he met as to what is worn under the kilt.

When he returned home he found he had developed a yearning to flash hither and thus, accordingly he hung around in windy places, glass sided lifts, and places with long steep staircases. And now he was addicted to flashing.

This sad cautionary tale has stuck with me longer then the tale of many Scottish folk tales and preambles to ballads that Ewan MacColl used to regale us with. Just goes to show - you can't control what excites your imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 06:32 AM

"the people are nice (even the Glaswegians)"

Especially the Glaswegians.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,gutcher
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 06:16 AM

I bow to the superior knowledge of previous posters--all I can say is that in near 8o years in the country I have never yet met anyone who has had a blood sucking tic attached to them, consultations will be held with a wheen lifelong ootbye herds who have had extensive pratical knowlege of sheep and tics. I seem to recollect that armchair critics have in the past denied that foxes kill lambs, just a thought.

Now take clegs,they certainly are expert blood suckers although I must say that its many's the long day since I personally played host to one.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 05:49 AM

. . . I meant even without the sheep.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 05:48 AM

Ticks are also found on deer, so there are probably some in Scotland even without the ticks.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 05:33 AM

Ticks are pretty rare in the west of Scotland these days...we used to call them "sheep ticks" when we were kids and we were always picking them off ourselves.
Most of the sheep have gone now and the ticks seem to have gone with them.......maybe children's habits have changed regarding play, we were out all day exploring the burns and moorland, making "dens" and thatching them with dry grass.
Now weans prefer to get their excitement from video war games. :0(

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: doc.tom
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 05:29 AM

How come only the Scots get to vote on whether Scotland should leave the Union?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Bill the Collie
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 05:19 AM

So Laurence Oates had the nickname "Titus"?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 05:00 AM

Ticks most certainly do attach themselves to Homo sapiens.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 04:54 AM

Ake, I've been a Catter langer than a Stomper! Jist use the same name on baith. First posted here in Oct 2000.

Gutcher, respect your views. Shan't call you names.
Humans can and do get bitten by ticks: just look up Lyme Disease: potentially very serious.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,gutcher
Date: 03 Feb 14 - 04:47 AM

T.B.    I see no harm in letting folk know the truth on any forum having the most tenuous connection to the important subject of the referendum. As regards bad language on a forum I plead guilty to having once used the "f" word in a direct quote from McTaggart, the subject of that forum being the fact that the "hero" "Titus" Oates fathered a child on a 12 year old girl.

Even one of Mr. Darlings conservative colleagues on the No campaign let the mask slip when he showed the contempt Darling is held in on all sides by referring to him as "flipper" Darling in public.

Anent ticks, as far as I am aware they do not attach themselves to homo-sapiens--sheep, dogs and cats being favourite targets.