BS: Real Non-belief/not militant

Subject: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 12:23 PM

Real non-belief

Real non-belief by rationale human beings is not a militant movement but an abiding
view that eschews the need for religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 01:48 PM

Interesting piece. I'm in total agreement. If religious belief helps someone live their life, fine - it works for them so who am I to gainsay that. By the same token I do not want 'believers' labeling me as evil or immoral because I don't need their belief.

IMHO religion has been used as a method of control over the general population - do as 'God' says or you will suffer the consequences. To some degree that still happens today - these are the rules to live by and those who don't follow them can't be good people.

I look at my grandchildren, neither of whom has been brought up with any religious background. Both know the difference between right and wrong, both are caring, considerate children. They really did not need to be frightened into good behaviour with threats of eternal punishment. Compare that to the right wing religious nuts who picket military funerals in the name of their God. I know who I feel are the better human beings.

I volunteer to teach needlecrafts at our local women's shelter, supplying the equipment myself with the help of very generous donations from others who know of this work. I do this because I feel that I can make a difference, no matter how small, in the lives of some of these women and that teaching the crafts that I love sends the ripples out further than I can see. One of my ladies, now back in Virginia, is teaching her daughter to knit, as I taught her. The local homeless shelter had a good consignment of hats ans scarves last Thanksgiving, all made by my ladies and Project Linus and the breast cancer unit of a local hospital have all been beneficiaries of their work. I didn't need any religious body to point me in that direction, just a need to give back to the community in some way.

Problem is, religion can be very divisive. Even within the Christian church there are vast differences in belief, leading to turmoil among those who, supposedly, worship the same entity. The need for validation of one's own particular creed does lead to the production of literature as mentioned in the article - my way is the RIGHT way is the credo.

I find it amusing that the pastor mentioned in the article thinks that only religious rules stop he and his flock from being lecherous drunken murderers. Well, maybe that's true and so religion has a purpose. Most of my non-religious friends don't seem to have this problem and we're really quite a happy bunch!

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 02:02 PM

the pastor mentioned in the article thinks that only religious rules stop he and his flock from being lecherous drunken murderers

Standard bigotry & delusion. Nuthin' new. Maybe its projection on the pastor's part?

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 02:12 PM

jacqui.c, sadly a lot of what you say is only too true. Sometimes, as a practising Christian I feel ashamed of what is said and done in the name of religion. I do admire your work with your needlecraft and knitting which helps the folk at the women's shelter and also the recipients of the items you all make. It's obvious you're a lovely, kind person.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 02:19 PM

Behavior trumps ideology and what you do and how you act is more important than what you profess to believe. Labeling and setting up meaningless distinctions, whether religious or otherwise, is a windmill tilt that sets up hostility whereby communal agreement can render productive activities and positive social action.

In short, don't rubber stamp. We are all complicated creatures.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Amos
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 03:34 PM

Whether Christian or Muslim
Or Hindu or Jew
By their fruits, ye shall know them
Has always been true.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 03:58 PM

I don't mind what people believe. I do wish from time to time that some would stfu about it, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 04:18 PM

"the pastor mentioned in the article thinks that only religious rules stop he and his flock from being lecherous drunken murderers"

I don't think that he thinks that at all.


the pastor mentioned in the article thinks that only religious rules stop he and his flock from being lecherous drunken murderers

"The pastor wanted his audience to be clear that the resurrection of Jesus wasn't merely some spiritual metaphor. "If the resurrection didn't literally happen," he shouted, "there is no reason for us to be here! If the resurrection didn't literally happen—there are parties to be had! There are women to be had! There are guns to shoot! There are people to shoot!""

I think he was being colorful, rhetorical and metaphorical for sure. But people go to church, especially high tech megachurch, to be entertained as well as enlightened. I think that he also, like many pastors have the incentive to have them awake when the offering plate is passed around.

From the artcle "You caught the subtext? Atheists (and even liberal Christians) have no basis for morality. Nothing—and I mean nothing!—stands between a godless person and debauchery or lechery or even violence. "

I didn't catch that subtext at all. I don't think he was talking to or about "Atheists (and even liberal Christians)" at all. I think he was talking to and about the people in his pews (or comfy stadium seats as the case may be.) He, if you didn't notice, was speaking about himself. What do you think he would say if it was pointed out to him that some atheists don't party, or drink or shoot. He was making the case that Jesus' sacrifice was for himself and for the people in his church. He is implying to his audience that they need that sacrifice to be moral. I happen to believe that one can follow Jesus as a teacher with or without the sacrifice, clearly the Pastor and his flock do not. That's good for them.

Penn and Teller, and those other 23 people on stringsinger's link believe that they have their own way. More power to them. I am glad they have chosen to be moral and to enjoy creation even though they believe it to be a combination of a clockwork journey from energy to entropy beginning with the Big Bang.   I also believe that but I believe there is more to it than just that. I like to call that mystery "God." I'm not harming anyone with my beliefs so I'll stick with them because they do me good.

I also don't think the Pastor is doing any harm in telling his flock to be moral in the way they want to hear it by being colorful, rhetorical and metaphorical.

I don't think by any means that the people in his church believe that all people who do not believe exactly as they do on these issues are partying, gun toting, drunken killers. But it is possible they think that some of their number, including their own selves might be without Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 05:00 PM

I do wish from time to time that some would stfu about it, though.

And/Or stop trying to shove it down other folks' throats.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 06:32 PM

Especially kids' throats.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 06:41 PM

Amen, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 07:40 PM

Well, yes, Frank....and no.

The ideal of both non-belief and belief should be positive, nurturing, and non-aggressive. But the reality is that there are both believers and non-believers who are militant about their positions.

It's important to not lump everybody together. Blame aggressive and combative and violent people for their aggression - but don't blame others simply because they share belief or non-belief with the aggressors.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 08:19 PM

What Joe said.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 08:52 PM

Unfortunately, there is a fairly common idea that moral behavior comes 'only' from some higher authority. Many people DO believe that all the rules they abide by were dictated by God, Allah, Buddha, The Great Spirit ... whatever. Otherwise, they think, standards of morality would be merely arbitrary and would not be observed. Well.... what do they think IS the case?
Since 'believing' in a supreme being and rule giver is itself arbitrary, it is fairly easy (from the outside) to see that there IS a certain arbitrary nature to the decision(s) about what moral code, if any, to follow.

But some have never even thought about why basic moral principles are... well... basic... and practical. Everyone has been told as child.. "what if everyone did that?" (Like throwing trash out the car window, or drawing on the walls with crayons.)

Mother to misbehaving kid: "Johnny, please be good!" "Mom...I'll be good for a quarter!". "But, why can't you be good for nothing, like your father?"

But because the reasonable, practical side of morality seems so easy to get at, it is also an obvious topic for serious philosophical analysis. From the Greeks on, deep thinkers have worked on how to express the value of "being good for nothing"... or usually 'because it just works out better'.

One of the most detailed and complex works on the issues was Kant's Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysic_of_Morals It is a long dissertation saying that it is obvious to anyone who thinks hard enough that moral behavior is practical.

But perhaps the simplest form came from Mammy Yokum, the mother of L'il Abner, who stated clearly... "Good is better'n evil, 'cause it's nicer!"

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 02:31 AM

DICTIONARY OF ANCIENT DEITIES, Patricia Turner and Charles Russell Coulter, Oxford University Press, Copyright © 2000 by Patricia Turner and the estate of Charles Russell Coulter, ISBN-13 978-0-19-514504-5.

Approximately 10,000 Deities' names listed, each of which at one time and place has been "the one true (best) God" for one or another of a significant number of people. ALL OF WHICH demanded rather similar "observances, moral codes, sacrifices and the like," and ALL OF WHICH promised (according to their priests) similar protections and benefits for their "true believers."

(Multiple names for what were essentially the same deities in different places/times reduces the number of distinct and separate ones to about 8,000.)

Take your pick if you need "something else" to take resposnsibility for your life, or take responsibility for yourself if you think you can.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 03:35 AM

Bill, I think the truth of the matter is that moral behavior comes 'only' from individuals who make their own choices.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 03:36 AM

It seems to me, that the only folks who care a damn about morality today are those with faith in a "higher power"

Self gratification is the new morality. Family values and self sacrifice are sneered at, children are viewed as a hindrance, consumers......even commodities to be bought and sold.

I don't know if society will ever regain its self respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 03:38 AM

What early missionaries believed was that no matter how well-organised, functional and socially profitable to all a 'primitive' society, if they didn't know about Jesus they were jolly well going to change, by cruelty and force if necessary. This view, that all 'primitive' tribes and societies were despicably 'unevolved', is still held today in many forms. I studied social anthropology at Uni as an extra, and one theme that struck me was how terribly arrogant and chauvinist many 'Christian' and 'Muslim' interferers were and are. There are areas of Africa where animism is the general belief. This isn't a religion, merely a tenet that all nature has a voice and a power. These folk are just as moral, organised, socially responsible etc as any religious group. But if it isn't the Muslims it's the Christians barging in and ordering them around. I agree totally with many comments above that among the atheists in the world are many millions of good, kind, generous, benevolent people. I have known many over the years. The problem is, there's a tendency to think ones own mindset is The Correct One. A big mistake IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 04:11 AM

I agree with your views on "primitive societies" Eliza, but you only have to look at our modern society to see the things that I have pointed our above. I's nothing to do with a "mindset", it's fact of modern life.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Musket
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 04:54 AM

You don't need religion to be a contributing moral member of society. As is obvious around here, you don't need religion to be bigoted either.

Jack, I think you are reading too deep into what the pastor is saying. If his waters were running deep, he should know better as the words in a superficial sense feed the crass stupidity most of us read.   In any case, if he said that without the resurrection being real, there is no point us being here, I would say that er.. we are here. Most of the humans on this planet haven't heard of any resurrection, and 99.999999999% of all other creatures haven't either.

Probably says more about the resurrection fable than why we are here.

I remain very hopeful for society, and see huge benefits with each generation. Yes, our awareness of what is wrong leads to a sense of things going wrong, but that is because as less people use a superstition to judge, we see issues on other shores as issues for people like us, rather than "heathens."

Long term that is good. What isn't good is getting there. But the marginalisation of superstition and the takeup of objective faith where people need it conspire to make society a better place.

Just got to ignore those with placards outside football grounds telling us we are sinners.   Cheeky buggers.....

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 11:41 AM

"It seems to me, that the only folks who care a damn about morality today are those with faith in a "higher power"

Self gratification is the new morality. Family values and self sacrifice are sneered at, children are viewed as a hindrance, consumers......even commodities to be bought and sold.

I don't know if society will ever regain its self respect."

The only person you can speak for is yourself, you miserable puritan.

Religion plays no part in my life and neither does hedonism.

I do care for those who are different, and believe in "live and let live", "do as you would by done by". I would not dream of committing a crime or hurting another human being and there is not a bigotted bone in my body nor thought in my head.

I simply pity you for your dislike of your fellow humans and hope that they think more of you than you do of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 12:13 PM

"Self gratification is the new morality. Family values and self sacrifice are sneered at, children are viewed as a hindrance, consumers......even commodities to be bought and sold."

I read years ago of a very similar sentiment found scribbled on the walls of Pompeii. In fact, almost every society seems to have those who decry the moral decay and dissolution as THEY see it. In the Victorian era, when all was superficially prim & proper, there were vices and sin galore behind closed doors.

Sorry, ake, but you are projecting based on YOUR notion of
'what ought to be'. It is easy to point at society's problems and make lists of statistics. We had a fellow, Anthony Comstock here in the US in the 1870s-to-1890s who made a career of 'fighting vice & immorality' as **he** saw it. In the same era, we had John_Harvey_Kellogg, the cereal magnate, who wrote books and gave speeches on similar lines...(famous for suggesting that parents spy on their kids lest they indulge in "solitary vice"... and tie their hands if they caught 'em!).

I know I would not care to have YOU, ake, get the power that Comstock had, nor the prominence that Kellogg had.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 12:54 PM

Man, I just wish it were as acceptable to be of no faith as it is to be of a different faith, for those who accept that much...

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 01:35 PM

"The ideal of both non-belief and belief should be positive, nurturing, and non-aggressive. But the reality is that there are both believers and non-believers who are militant about their positions."

Sure, Joe, but this militancy belies their sincerity. It's a form of didacticism that is more prevalent among religious folk than non-believers. Most religious folk are not positive, nurturing and non-agressive and suffer from projected their problems onto non-believers.

"Man, I just wish it were as acceptable to be of no faith as it is to be of a different faith, for those who accept that much..."

Me too. Then we wouldn't have to listen to arguments such as "militant atheism" as if it were some kind of norm, which it is not.

Non-belief is more and more on the rise because the old superstitious model of religion just doesn't work any more. So we see a reaction by those attempting to denigrate non-belief
as "militant" or "weird" or other epithets.

I needed to answer the "militant" label by attempting to inform religious folks that non-believers are not all the same and for some, militancy might just be rationality and for others vice versa.

I accept that religious folks are not all the same and as a non-believer, I have great respect for religious institutions such as the Quakers (AFSC) because they act more in alleviating social ills then talking about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 02:25 PM

Bill the examples you quote are not what I have in mind when I discuss "morality".
I think more on the modern ideal of self gratification, before the improvement of society. How it is in the process of destroying everything which stands in its way.
Of course we are encouraged by our system to think in such a manner

We talk about the wealth gap, the inequality of living standards, there is also the generation gap, ever widening, as family structures are attacked.
The extended family was an on going educational and psycological course, the absorbed wisdom of the old imparted to the very young, the energy and positivity of youth transferred to old bones and tired minds.....having grown up in such a loving and fulfilling environment, I see why the folks have adopted Mrs Thatcher's premise, that there is "no such thing as society."

I find it slightly insulting that you think I am some sort of Victorian killjoy, everyone has a notion of "what aught to be"
Sex is wonderful, unbridled promiscuity is dangerous and diminishing to everyone who takes part in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 03:11 PM

"I think more on the modern ideal of self gratification, before the improvement of society. How it is in the process of destroying everything which stands in its way."

Modern? Modern? It has always been thus. That is the principle and often repeated lesson of the Old Testament. People are bad. People act badly. God punishes the World. But he promised Noah, he would not punish the World again. Some Jewish Prophets said that he would punish anyone who would mess with Israel , but unless by punish the meant give Israel's enemies which lasted hundreds of years, that didn't exactly work out. But in the New Testament, we are each responsible for our own bad behavior, we are not responsible for the bad behavior of our family, our people our tribe or our nation. This is a great relief. This is a great responsibility.

Akenaton, let us worry about our own morals as we would have others worry or not about theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 04:57 PM

"...you think I am some sort of Victorian killjoy..."

All I think is that you, in various ways and on various topics, express more concern than usual about the ills of society and the causes thereof. Your recent post explicitly says this. Given your posting history in general, I would, as I said, be concerned if you were suddenly in a position to control & influence actual laws & procedures to any marked degree.

(How's that for genteel avoidance of direct insult?)

The guy who wrote on the walls of Pompeii said very similar stuff to YOUR screed.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:05 PM

Society is under attack Bill, and the church is under siege.
Even I, as presently an atheist, can see that.

I suppose I have about ten years of life left, so I wont see the worst effects.....but that does not mean that I don't care about the world my descendants will inherit.

Given YOUR posting history, I am extremely worried that people like you already HAVE the power (through the media), to adversely affect the sort of world my grand children and great grandchildren, will and are being, born into.
You think you speak for society and "human rights", don't flatter yourself, the world is a very large place and society is made up of myriad opinions

"Everyone has a notion of "how things aught to be"

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:09 PM

Though I love this place, it is a goldfish bowl...highly unrepresentative of society in general.....comforting and homely for some of the "big fish".....:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:17 PM

"Akenaton, let us worry about our own morals as we would have others worry or not about theirs."

Come on Jack, let's be REAL Christian, let's NOT pass on the other side!
I might even be thinking of joining you, I have relations in Canada who think and speak much as you do.   :0)
I do have problems with the afterlife though. :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:20 PM

The man who wrote it on the walls of Pompeii was very likely quite right, talking about the time in which he was living.

Times change, and things change over time. At any time there are likely to be some things getting better and other things getting worse. It reasonable to expect that there will be periods when more things, and more important things, are getting worse than are getting better.

Think about something like being able to get a job, or get a roof over your heads, just for example. Definitely a lot worse than a generation or two back. Think about physical access for people in wheelchairs. Definitely a lot better.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:31 PM

"Society is under attack Bill, and the church is under siege."

What a fascinating, empty generalization. It is simply rhetorical hyperbole that vaguely expresses a discontent... with no specifics.

", I am extremely worried that people like you already HAVE the power (through the media), to adversely affect the sort of world my grand children and great grandchildren, will and are being, born into."

We over here have "the media" on every conceivable 'side' of every issue. It takes only moments to find a TV channel or web site to echo whatever odd cause you care to study. *I* have only the power of one vote, and various conservatives are working on limiting the vote to THEIR side.

,... and BTW, I have never in my life presumed to " speak for society and "human rights". If you study my posting history in excruciating detail, you'd see that much of my opinions center on examining the style, logic and flaws in various stances. Some of my personal opinions do, of course, come to light in this process, but if you think you see any specific one you quibble with, I will try to give clear, concise explicit reasons for my position
"...the world is a very large place and society is made up of myriad opinions. Ain't it the truth... ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:40 PM

Its a little tough to process an atheist complaining that the "church" is under siege. The Church is not under siege. The Church simply has to adjust to not being the center of our culture and the filter through which all things must be seen. I think that is a good thing.

You a   re a "conservative" aren't you? what about the marketplace of ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 07:58 PM

Jack, I'm a socialist politically, and a conservative socially....does that sound a bit daft?
It isn't really if you think about it.
Don't understand why you don't see the church and people of faith as being under pressure from the "liberal intelligentsia":0)....just look on these pages for a start, they want to see an end to all conservatism, social and political. In fact "Thatchers dream", the "end of society", brought about by "liberals".....How ironic.
Only Mr McGrath has the intellect to appreciate THAT joke!
I think the church can guide people in good way, over here we tend to be less aggressive in promoting faith, than some US Christians
I think Jesus lived and promoted a philosophy of common sense and understanding, for the time in which he lived.....though most of it is still valid today.

The afterlife is too big a step for me, I don't think the idea of Heaven, Hell, the Holy spirit, was meant to be taken literally, but they certainly have meaning for all sorts of people in all sorts of personal ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 08:14 PM

I agree with your post Mr McGrath, but I once as a child, learned a great truth.
My uncle who had withered legs, had no wheelchair, or access, he had crutches which he carved for himself from tree branches. His life was a constant struggle as he worked felling trees by the great strength of his arms.
When I childishly asked him why he did it, why he drove himself harder than his brothers, he said "Alex, its only the struggle to be really independent that makes life worthwhile"
He was one of the kindest bravest people I have ever known.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 08:21 PM

"Jack, I'm a socialist politically, and a conservative socially....does that sound a bit daft?"

Not at all. George Lakoff would call you a "bi-conceptual" (which has nothing to do with sexual proclivities). Check out his books, "Moral Politics" and "Don't Think of an Elephant".

"Its a little tough to process an atheist complaining that the "church" is under siege."

Why? The "church"has been under siege for years. Many non-believers come from the congregations that spawned their non-belief and most non-believers know more about the so-called "church" than many who attend their services. This is why they leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 08:34 PM

You have a socialist media Bill?.....are you sure?....just a tiny one?....:0).

And here was me thinkin' your political and economic ststem was a corporate capitalist rat race, assisted by woolly "liberal" Quislings...Oh how silly of me!!

I suppose that's why I post all those pesky "empty generalisations" and "vague rhetorical hyperbole".....with NO specifics no less!!

My, but your are a great great man! How lucky I am to be the recipient of nice genteel insults from someone so elevated....   :0)

Perhaps you could find the time to post me your "bum paper"....jist whin yer finished wey it..like?........Ake the Unworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 08:39 PM

Thanks Frank...you're one of the good guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 09:29 PM

We have 'some' Socialist media, to be sure. We have one Senator, (Bernie Sanders of Vermont) who says he IS 'socialist'.... but he is one of the sanest, most reasonable, intelligent politicians you'll ever meet.... and you'd not recognize him as socialist easily if you sat and talked to him.
Some of his **wishes** tend toward a socialism... of sorts.., but he's not an authoritarian, and allows democracy to churn onward.

Bum paper? (It's 'toilet paper' here.) Sure...I use good quality. You might get 2-3 uses from it. Send me your address by PM. ;>) (Stop the "vague rhetorical hyperbole", and I'll include a new sheet with each two used ones.) We 'liberals' can be very liberal in a good cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 10:00 PM

I think there are good moral people is all walks of life.

Snotty ex scientists and Internet posters saying silly things about religion doesn't ad up to a siege.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 02:57 AM

Society is what you make of it and what you can do to contribute to it. I believe one of your past Presidents said something along those lines.

I find it both sad and ultimately unhelpful when some people judge society by their own failings.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 04:08 AM

It seems to me, that the only folks who care a damn about morality today are those with faith in a "higher power"

Did you actually read the item linked in the opening post? It contains the views of 20 people who have no faith in a higher power but do seem to care about morality. They are just a sample. There are millions of others I can assure you. What I realised years ago is that most people are intrinsically good. It is the bad ones, of whatever faith or otherwise, who make the news because they are the exceptions.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 04:42 AM

Bill....all of your latest post was a "cop out".....even the bum paper!

Your media stinks, just like ours!

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 08:23 AM

We have one Senator, (Bernie Sanders of Vermont) who says he IS 'socialist'.... but he is one of the sanest, most reasonable, intelligent politicians you'll ever meet.

Why "but"??

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 10:14 AM

"Did you actually read the item linked in the opening post? It contains the views of 20 people who have no faith in a higher power but do seem to care about morality."

A word of warning DtG

Did you read it? A lot of the people did not mention morality. Awe and beauty were very common themes of the quotes. Anyone who reads what you said above and then actually reads the piece you sarcastically suggested that Ake did not read is likely to form a negative opinion of the veracity of your opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 10:18 AM

"Why "but"?? "

Socialists famous in this country, Mao, Stalin, Castro, Hugo Chavez and others, do not have the reputation for calm measured reason that Mr. Sanders enjoys.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 10:29 AM

Thanks, Jack... I would have spent 4 paragraphs saying it. You got it in one sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 10:33 AM

Steve... you can read about Bernie here.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 10:35 AM

The assumption that what people believe can be neatly arranged around a single axis - typically expressed as left/right or conservative/liberal etc - does not really bear close examination.

For all kind of things there is no natural connection between where we stand on issues. Gun control, abortion, climate change, capital punishment - none of those bear any natural connection with any of the others, let alone with whether we believe in socialist economics. Even where there might seem a natural connection, in practice it often isn't found. For example being against capital punishment and abortion might seem a natural connection.

A more accurate way of placing people would one involving more than one axis - for example a three dimensional model, with the left right axis at right angles with the permissive/authoritarian one, and a third one perhaps at right angles again relating to religious belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Real Non-belief/not militant
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 10:43 AM

A word of warning DtG
Did you read it?

Yes I did. Every bit, thanks.

My words: Did you actually read the item linked in the opening post?

Your reply: you sarcastically suggested that Ake did not read...

How on earth can you glean any amount of sarcasm from a simple question such as that is beyond me I'm afraid. As Ake seemed to take it in the way it was intended I am at a loss as to what you are on about.

DtG