BS: Odd ideas

Subject: BS: Odd ideas
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 01:51 PM

Over in the Darwin's Witnesses thread I mentioned we sometimes come across ideas given in all seriousness that don't bear much scrutiny. I don't mean things where significant numbers of people hold differing views, but one's which appear entirely self generated ... somehow. And I'd like to concentrate on things adults say.

Here are three of the kind of things I mean.

a) Wind is caused by tree branches waving

b) 'North' is just another word for 'the direction I am facing'; 'South' just means 'behind me'

c) A certain pier was built on floating tanks. The question was how they got these things with gun barrels and caterpillar tracks to float.

Please add other examples that made you say 'Whaaaat???'

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: gnu
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 02:15 PM

c)... what?

They floated them on tanks didn't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 02:15 PM

North is up, south is down. Hence failing is going south, being killed is gone south, etc.

That stock is going south. Bail out quick.
That stock is going north. Get in on the ground floor.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 02:18 PM

c) Gnu, I didn't see anything wrong with this one either.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 02:32 PM

Really? The pier was built on tanks as in large cylindrical air filled 'barrels', not military equipment.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 02:51 PM

DMcG

One of your problems seems to be a dictionary with some pages missing. I'm sure that with a little searching, you can find an applicable definition of tanks.

I think the "trees causing wind" thing is a trick that bored legislators play on reporters to trick them into staying awake during speeches.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 02:56 PM

When my father bought his place in Vermont, a little before I was born, the owner pointed out as a particular amenity the huge maple tree next to the house. "There's always a cool breeze comes out of that tree", he said. It's gone now.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 02:57 PM

Perhaps I should make clear that all these are things people said to me in all seriousness in general conversation with adults, most of whom have degrees. They were not deliberate obtuseness to entertain.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 03:36 PM

Such concepts are rarely completely "self-generated", but mainly consequences of misunderstandings, often paired with ideological predispositions. As in the case of Mudcat's favourite "mondegreens", few such errors seem too weird not to be shared by many others.

I am no longer following the "Darwin's Witnesses" thread, but I know exactly what you are talking about in that context. Science, religion, history, and politics capture the imaginations of imaginative people.

Quite a number of books have been written about common misconceptions - common but often caused independently by a large number of inventors, including serious journalists and scientists.

Of course, most authors of those books appear as patronizing and sneering; I do not want such a reputation if there is no acute necessity. Still, whoever joins a discussion has the responsibility to correct the other participants' relevant misunderstandings, often very basic ones. Tedious and dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 04:06 PM

In both cases below I thought, whaaaat?

On a radio talk show I heard a caller say " I believe in free speech, but people are saying the wrong things, and we have to do something about it."

Another caller was complaining about foreign ownership of local coastal land. He said, "the Germans are coming here and paying big prices for shore front land, much more than the locals can afford - and buying it all up. Pretty soon, there won't be any coastal land left for local white folks"

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 04:28 PM

Well all the Germans I've come across have been various shades of pink or beige.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 05:19 PM

"Still, whoever joins a discussion has the responsibility to correct the other participants' relevant misunderstandings,"

Griska, when you are right you are right.

DMcG, Obviously the Pier was built on tanks from definition 1. and had enough air for buoyancy.

tank
taNGk/
noun
plural noun: tanks

    1.
    a large receptacle or storage chamber, esp. for liquid or gas.
       the container holding the fuel supply in a motor vehicle.
       synonyms:        container, receptacle, vat, cistern, repository, reservoir, basin More
       "a hot water tank"
       a receptacle with transparent sides in which to keep fish; an aquarium.
       synonyms:        aquarium, bowl More
       "a tank full of fish"
    2.
    a heavy armored fighting vehicle carrying guns and moving on a continuous articulated metal track.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 06:09 PM

Yes, I agree. What astonished me was how anyone thought definition 2 made more sense

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 06:26 PM

They were joking?

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 06:33 PM

No, they weren't. Absolutely serious. All I can offer in evidence is their reaction when I explained.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 06:40 PM

Anyway, that's enough on tanks. Does anyone have an idea how a fully functioning 20+ year old can make it through the education system without having grasped what North means?

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 06:52 PM

One possible hint about the "North" gaff: hold a conventional map normally, and you're "facing north", in terms of reading the map.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 07:07 PM

My ex-wife, 55 years ago, squishing the heel of her hand into the bathtub drain: "Oh, because it makes the water go out faster." (she was a brilliant scholar otherwise)

Woman on a radio talk show in Kansas, 45 years ago, replying to a discussion over whether white barbers should be required to cut the hair of African-Americans: "Oh, they don't even HAVE real hair. It's just a sort of wool!" To his credit, the host corrected her immediately.

Old woman on talk show about the same time, replying to the newly instituted daylight savings time: "I am against it! It will confuse the chickens!"

Yes, I heard all of those.

*thinking of more in recent years*

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 07:38 PM

I've noticed that quite a few people (younger that I am!) have little grasp of history, or engineering for that matter, which would explain the 'tanks' confusion.
Armoured Fighting Vehicles were originally code-named 'tanks' whilst being built in numbers for the first time, in an attempt to hide their purpose from spies during WWI. So I understand.
Civilian English people aren't very fond of acronyms, and the name stuck.
There once were 'swimming tanks' that floated.

Sorry, it just triggered an old memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Bert
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 07:58 PM

When I lived in Alabama, a friend asked me where I was from. I said I was born in England, have worked in The Middle East and have lived in Dallas and Colorado - I guess I'm Nomadic. She said "Where's That?"

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 08:26 PM

Oh... I am reminded by the above: Someone related being in France and going to an American movie which was about WWII. The film was subtitled in English for the French.

Two American soldiers were huddled in a ditch, looking frightened, when a rumbling was heard. One of the soldiers peeked over the top, and turned to his buddy as he pointed and shouted, "Tanks!"



and the subtitle said: "Merci!"

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: JennieG
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 10:06 PM

Last time we had a census a few years ago, during discussion at my quilt group, I mentioned that Himself and I would be filling in our forms online......to which one of the women replied, "oh I wouldn't do that because I don't want the government to know about me, I use the paper form".

And of course the government doesn't read that, do they? Nooooo.......

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 21 Feb 14 - 11:15 PM

My ex-wife, 55 years ago, squishing the heel of her hand into the bathtub drain: "Oh, because it makes the water go out faster." (she was a brilliant scholar otherwise)

If the outlet pipe is partially blocked by some soft gunge, squishing the heel of the hand into the bathtub drain might have the effect of a makeshift plunger and, indeed, help the water go out faster.

Perhaps she was more brilliant than you realised.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 12:32 AM

I am reminded of the Senate gentleman who argued against wind-power because it would slow the planet down.

This kind of rampant ignorance and the inability to perform a simple physics experiment in one's head is a sad sign of the kind of idiocy that has always inspired the anti-intelligentsia `. They resort to a code of conclusive ignorance which celebrates the black mindlessness of the unthinking soul. It is enough to make Jesus weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Bert
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 01:20 AM

...it would slow the planet down...

I said that on Mudcat once - but it was a joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 03:14 AM

I got into trouble with my niece for telling her daughter that wind farms are there to cool the planet down and prevent global warming....

Regarding North. I bought a map of the world when I was in New Zealand which had NZ on top of the world. South upwards as it were. Excellent.

Let's not forget, back in the superstitious beginnings of cartography, maps had East to the top, as that was the way to Jerusalem.

The oddest thing I ever heard was that Sheffield United played football.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 12:21 PM

"might have the effect of a makeshift plunger and, indeed, help the water go out faster."

Yes, but that was not the case.... and she did concede the point I made after discussion.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
*remembering a comment made by a woman who worried about losing or forgetting her list of email addresses & Passwords*: "So I keep a small notebook beside the computer with them listed."

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 12:39 PM

I don't think that technical vocabularies have the same usefulness they once did. Why learn a glossary when you have the information in your palm? Why learn about North and south and maps when you can just tell your phone where you want to go and it will tell you, turn by turn, how to get there?

Wind being caused by branches waving is a puzzle, unless your most vivid experience with trees in in Peter Jackson movies ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: gnu
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 12:42 PM

Bill D... love it!

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 01:38 PM

*remembering a comment made by a woman who worried about losing or forgetting her list of email addresses & Passwords*: "So I keep a small notebook beside the computer with them listed."

You can laugh at that, but she won't have to reconstruct a whole pile of passwords if her hard drive fries. : )

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 01:45 PM

Am I thick, or missing something? I too keep a little book beside the computer, with all my email addresses, usernames and passwords in it. I couldn't possibly remember them all in my head. What's wrong/funny about that eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 01:46 PM

Then again, I don't really do anything on this thing that puts me at any more risk of financial or identity theft than using a credit card at a store does anyhow, so I was thinking more about convenience than about security.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 05:05 PM

Many ideas seem odd (or are even declared falsified), but are later seen to be valid, and vice versa. Therefore, precise argumentation is a good idea, even towards people whom you do not judge as qualified. If you cannot be bothered, at least refrain from sneering.

For example, keeping copies of important data on paper can be a good idea for various reasons. Encrypt them if necessary. As for ex-Mrs.D's bathtub drain, I would not be too sure either. Besides: Why is she ex? (No answer expected.)

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 03:55 AM

That's so, Grishka, and to some extent I can do so on two of the three ideas that opened the thread. Take trees causing wind, for example. It doesn't take much thought to decide that's false - places where there is wind without trees, or questioning how the trees agree to create the wind at a particular time - but it does have a proto-science to it: someone has observed that when the branches are still there is no wind and when the branches are moving there is, so they have decided there's a connection, quite correctly. They have certainly gone for the wrong connection, but they were at least trying to explain something they have observed.

Similarly, the tanks. It isn't often remarked on but there are captured cannon, twisted and vanquished, at around knee level built into the Brandenburg Gate. This idea goes back to at least Ancient Greece - demonstrate the defeat of an enemy by taking their weapons and using them for some triumphal purpose in which the weapons are retained but useless. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that a country could capture enemy tanks and use them as foundations for something.

On the other hand, I can't explain the North one precisely because so many people must have encountered it and not noticed. How many teachers must have marked homework that seemed strange? How many strangers in the street have asked for directions? How did she listen to directions, come to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 07:07 AM

DMcG, no need to explain it to us, but to the originators of the "odd ideas" if you feel that the situation requires you to correct them. When I wrote "you", I did not only mean you (DMcG), but Bill and others as well. I know quite a number of married couples where one partner complains that the other keeps correcting her or him in a mortifying style. Often both partners of a couple pronounce this complaint ...

Your examples b) and c) are matters of definition, so that a dictionary suffices for explaining. Example a) is more tricky, because it involves physics and even philosophy ("What is a cause?"...). An encyclopedia should be convincing enough, though.

The crucial point is: lack of knowledge is something distinct from lack of logic. Sneerers who confuse the two are guilty of fallacy themselves. Nevertheless, I feel that people who boast a degree in humanities should be demanded to acquire a good knowledge in all sciences, since these do have consequences even in the softest of all humanities. I for one treasure my school education.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 08:42 AM

But, of course one needs to be careful and precise when correcting - to avoid offending those easily offended, or sending the discussion off in aa unrelared area. This often occurs on this site, as posters are fired up to fight old battles.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 09:20 AM

I just wish the news media would question politicians and religious leaders when they say things that are obviously illogical or ignorant.

Things like, "I'm being discriminated against by being forced to live in a society where I don't get to discriminate against other people".

Or, "Our Founding Fathers, the ones who wrote the first Amendment to the Constitution, were Christian. Therefore we should have laws that force people to live according to Christian ideas."

Or someone who believes that "Creation Science" isn't an oxymoron and ought to be taught along with biology in science classes.

Or, "In the United States the majority rules."

Or someone who eats ham sandwiches and wears poly-cotton blends proudly and hatefully claiming that gay marriage ought to be illegal because The Bible says homosexuality is a sin.

Or someone who passes laws that are obviously unconstitutional and then rails against "activist judges" when the laws are struck down. Who was the activist here?

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 10:29 AM

While I agree with that, GUEST, I'd rather we left the religious to other threads, of which there are plenty. On the main point, though, definitely. One of the most irritating verbs politicians in the UK use that goes unquestioned here is the nice, positive 'encourage'. As in 'encourage people back to work'. And what is the nature of this encouragement? Why, cutting benefits of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: GUEST,Girhska
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 11:21 AM

Purposeful propaganda is of course quite a different thing from misunderstandings; it may well be their counterpart, so to speak. Nevertheless, some propagandists are so convincing that eventually they believe their own lies - usually marking their downfall.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 12:24 PM

".. What's wrong/funny about that eh? "

Well, if security is relevant enough to need passwords to a site or program that you wish to keep private, a notebook beside the computer kinda defeats the purpose. If you simply don't have ANY info or data that you wish to keep private, *shrug*... But if your bank account password is in that notebook, good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: GUEST,eldergirl on another computer
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 09:00 PM

stars twinkle: planets don't. that's how you can tell the difference.
now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the twinkling was caused by the Earth's atmosphere refracting(?) the light as it arrived..
but my old college chum was convinced that planets do not twinkle because their light is only reflected light.
help?

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 10:04 PM

You were right.
The difference results from the apparent size of the light source.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 10:14 PM

I've never seen Venus or Jupiter. I figured that is because they were close enough to be seen as a disk.

This fellow agrees and explains it technically.

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=117

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 10:48 PM

Is venus not normally seen early morning, as it is nearer the sun?

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 11:11 PM

I am reminded of the "wolf sentence" -

That's the best salad I ever put in my whole mouth!

And others like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Feb 14 - 11:59 PM

Venus is a morning or an evening star for the reason Ed gives.
Jupiter is visible all night just now.
I think Jack meant to say he has never seen them twinkle.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 12:31 AM

I did mean that! In fact I remember typing "twinkle." Sometimes the touch pad accidentally deletes words at the end of lines. I can't swear that happened. But that is probable.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Allan C.
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 08:39 AM

I think DMcG was onto something. It does sometimes come down to a matter of education. I won't begin to say that people with a modicum of education cannot be duped by misinformation, but I think that the lack of education or correct information makes it easier for people to absorb odd ideas.

In an airplane on my way to boot camp I found myself seated next to a fellow recruit who gave me to realize, after very brief conversation, that he was from way back in the hill country. He also quickly demonstrated that he was probably not the brightest of his peers. As the jet made ready for takeoff I came to know he had never flown before. As a joke I offered an explanation of the takeoff process. I told him that as the plane gained enough speed the wing flaps would angle upward to aid the plane in getting off the ground. Then the wheels would retract as they were no longer needed. And then I told him that the wings would also retract because the full length of them was only necessary for takeoff. As proof I told him he would notice that the wings would appear shorter as we gained in altitude.

Convincing that young man was easy because he lacked enough information to refute that odd idea. Odd ideas are, I believe, mostly based upon lack of information or upon a store of misinformation. Imagine how easily you could convince someone who knows little of snakes that snakes can't possibly swim because they don't have any appendages to use as paddles.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 09:33 AM

Allen if this was in the early 70's what you said to him was fairly plausible because the state of the art fighter at the time the F14 Tomcat, performed almost just as you described.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 09:40 AM

Wind is made by tree branches waving. That is why we now have to have wind farms. Due to deforestation there are not enough trees to make the wind so we have to have these windmills all over the place generating it. Farmed wind is not half as good as proper free range wind like we had when I was a lad though.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 09:46 AM

I hear ya man. I don't like orchard wind. Too regular and short. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 11:46 AM

In Juneau, Alaska, wind is predictable. The lacy mists hugging the mountain sides pull them into town. Never fails. We would use them to generate electricitous power but they are really not needed- the winds that are pulled in by the mists pull rains in their wake- we use hydropower.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 11:49 AM

Ebbie do not deny that it is the trees! We know ya got lots of em!

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Allan C.
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 02:00 PM

JTS, plausibility is the foundation of misinformation and many pranks. (As we were landing I told him that his ears were bleeding.)

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Bert
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 04:28 PM

But children can be forgiven for odd ideas. I remember as a kid my sister had just read a book about an earthquake where the ground had opened up. We came across a dried up mud puddle, where there were big cracks in the mud. We gave it a wide berth in case it swallowed us up.

Subject: RE: BS: Odd ideas
From: Eldergirl
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:58 AM

Keith A of H, thanks for the confirmation.
Farmed wind!! LOL!
I thought that was the result of all those cattle ranches in S America, giving off methane?
Uh, wrong kind of wind.
Ok, I'll go back to sleep now..
;-D