Obit: Rev Fred Phelps, (1929-2014)

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 01:59 PM

If we keep doing such great work, we may have to transfer this thread to 'above the line'.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 01:58 PM

Both good songs!

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Musket
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 12:16 PM

Or Tom Robinson's Sing if You're Glad to be Gay?

I usually find that those who actively condemn people who are wired differently have a repressed dilemma in their heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Mar 14 - 09:33 AM

....could we find another song?

No problem! How about the Stones' "Sympathy For The Devil"?

;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: GUEST,Guest in Topeka
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:17 PM

My hope is that God takes him into heaven and annoints Matthew Shepherd as his mentor...

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 07:28 PM

I don't know Phelps.

And I hate Kumbaya (oh shit, there's my hate mongering dark side---maybe Phelps and I will do some jamming together in hell)......could we find another song?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:42 PM

Larry, we cross-posted.

...doesn't mean I have to deny all their humanity.

Fair enough.

Give me say, a half-dozen examples of Phelps' "humanity" & I'll sing a chorus of Kumbaya with ya for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:13 PM

Oh, and Larry? If it makes you feel better to call me a "hate monger" & equate me with Phelps and deny reality & engage in wishful thinking, by all means knock your self out.


Frank and Jesse James were a product of their environment
They were sent out into the woods by their parents
To forage for berries, truffles, rutabagas and roots of all sorts
Put yourself in their place: you'da been mean too

Kingston Trio -

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:13 PM

Yes, I do believe there is evil in the world. I believe it's a continuum.......even those of us who do mostly 'good' have a dark side, and (which I know from working for many years as a therapist in prison working with rapists, murderers, and people who have committed a number of horrific crimes) amongst those who do a lot of evil things there are glimmers of compassion, love, and a desire to do 'good' things.

I can't explain it!   So I feel very humble.........and (while doing everything possible to ensure that these people who do such evil things are never in a position to inflict them on others) and want to focus on developing that other side.

I do believe that much of this evil comes from a wound.

And that all of us, if given a choice, would rather feel 'connected' rather than separate.   But people who perpetrate these evil acts often aren't able to even consider the possibility that there is another choice that can work for them.

I also believe in the importance of having very strong consequences for people who perpetrate such acts-----whether they be corporate polluters, capitalist exploiters, those who spew hate, or those who commit horrendous crimes.    But believing in strong consequences doesn't mean I have to deny all their humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Wesley S
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:09 PM

"Ya figure the same for Stalin, Himmler, Pol Pot, Ivan the Terrible & on & on, do ya?"

Ivan the Terrible - sure.One chorus of Kumbaya would have been enough. The others - not so much. They would have needed an anti-bullying seminar at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:01 PM

So Larry, tell me. Do you believe that there is evil in the world?

The right words or song from a caring person may have saved the world from all the vitriol this man spewed...

Idiotic. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Ya figure the same for Stalin, Himmler, Pol Pot, Ivan the Terrible & on & on, do ya?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 04:00 PM

Greg F, the article you posted on the New Messiah is very interesting. It illustrates how 'fanatacism'-whatever side it falls, is a trait in itself. Steve Drains is a great example. He would go from one extreme to the other.

This is why I think that the many posters on this thread who are working on developing the antithesis of the hatred that Phelps espoused----and are also trying to feel some 'mercy' or compassion for Phelps and his lot, even while reinforcing the abhorrence of their views-------are much less likely to become hate mongers than people like yourself, who make fun of them and think in such black and white terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM

The right words or song from a caring person may have saved the world from all the vitriol this man spewed all over kind souls in this country. Or maybe posing as a bible boss kept him from becoming a serial killer.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 02:01 PM

Anyone taking odds on whether April 20 will change Phelps' situation?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 09:19 PM

I bet he was involved with a priest as a child and could never admit it. His compensation behavior became purely pathological.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 08:47 PM

"Their hatred inspired compassion and tolerance in the hearts of countless thousands. May his troubled soul finally rest in peace."

Not much chance of that Joe, there will be Gays and Blacks in both Heaven and Hell.

Poetic justice!

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 06:34 PM

You've got to be taught to hate and fear,

You've got to be taught from year to year,

It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear,

You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid

Of people whose eyes are oddly made,

And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,

You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,

Before you are six or seven or eight,

To hate all the people your relatives hate,

You've got to be carefully taught!

(Thank you Mr Rodgers and Mr Hammerstein)

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:18 PM



The New Messiah

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 10:54 AM

Pol Pot could use a little mercy now
The fruits of his labors
The thousands buried in the ground
His work was comprehensive
All those folks that were cut down
Poor old Pol Pot, the man could use some mercy now

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 10:38 AM

We all sing to the crowd Joe.

Musical masturbation isn't my scene and waving placards at empty cars wasn't his.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 09:26 AM

what we're saying is that the efforts of Phelps and his ilk have backfired.

Not so's you'd notice, Joe. There's thousands of his "ilk" out there.
Some have been elected to Congress. Some are State governors. Some are just foot-soldiers in God's bigot army.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Janie
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 11:38 PM

Mercy Now

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 10:49 PM

Phelps' Whelps Belch?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 10:41 PM

Musket, in his usual pontifical fashion, states: Fascinating that some are saying that without disgraceful bigotry, decent behaviour and outlooks wouldn't get appreciated.

Well, no - what we're saying is that the efforts of Phelps and his ilk have backfired.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Janie
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 02:53 PM

*sigh*

I know better than to wade into these threads. Only myself to blame.

Take care, Greg.

All the best,

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 02:41 PM

Will the new church be called Phelps' Whelps?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 02:19 PM

the behaviors of Phelps and the Westboro gang had some positive consequences not intended by the Westboro congregation.

So we should therefore appreciate, condone or excuse these assholes because of unintended consequences of their atrocious actions?

I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Janie
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 01:38 PM

Really?

Merely in the fwiw department, it seems to me that Sins posted a statement made by Ms. Shepherd. I'm not aware that Ms. Shepherd herself has posted here, though I suppose I have no way of knowing. Nor have I read any posts here- but maybe I missed something or have forgotten- that assert decent behaviors and outlooks are appreciated only in the face of bigotry.

It seems to me that the posts of Sins and some others call attention to the reality that the behaviors of Phelps and the Westboro gang had some positive consequences not intended by the Westboro congregation.

Only my interpretation, mind you.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Musket
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 11:41 AM

I do.

For instance, from above..

Matthew Shepherd's mother says she thanks God every day for Rev. Phelps. Without his hateful, spiteful, vicious attacks her son would have been just another victim. Phelps turned him into a martyr and a cause. Phelps was his own worst enemy.

I believe that he like millions and millions before him has played his part and is gone. I thank him for calling attention to the plight of gays and lesbians.

My hope is that his funeral goes unnoticed. Let his family put his body to rest without the interfering rabble disrupting their grieving and calling attention to his version of the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Janie
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 10:22 AM

Fascinating that some are saying that without disgraceful bigotry, decent behaviour and outlooks wouldn't get appreciated.

Musket, I don't interpret any post to this thread as saying that.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM

Fascinating that some are saying that without disgraceful bigotry, decent behaviour and outlooks wouldn't get appreciated.

Not needing a bloke in a dog collar to tell me how to be moral, I find it odd that Phelps has been heralded as accidentally promoting decency by the reaction to his religious beliefs.

So.... How many people wouldn't know how to act civilly without demonstrations of the opposite?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 09:32 AM

Good for the non-church folks.

So the Westboro asshloles are still at it without Phelps, eh Stilly?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 10:20 PM

Look below the first photo - that is of the Westboro group at work in the past. The lower photos are of non-church folks giving an example of how Westboro should have behaved.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:21 PM

So the Westboro asshloles are still at it without Phelps, eh Stilly?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:04 PM

A classy response.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:14 PM

there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate
kindness and compassion.

Fred Phelps and his followers excepted, of course.

His Westboro Baptist Church had 40 members...

You're not maintaining that there are only 40 "God Hates Fags" hateful bigots running around loose, are you? What about the "countless thousands" of similar fundagelicl idiots that support Phelps' outlook?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:21 PM

The death of Fred Phelps is a good occasion for saying gentle, nonaggressive things about tolerance, which is what we all seek, if we are people of good will. I've seen many good photos and quotations on Facebook over the last day. Amos posted a photo of a smiling, gentle Dalai Lama with this quote:

Whether one believes in a religion or not,
and whether one believes in rebirth or not,
there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate
kindness and compassion.
Amen.

Fred Phelps was a talented, dynamic man who appeared to be full of hate. But his hatred led many people to go in the opposite direction - toward kindness, tolerance, and compassion. His Westboro Baptist Church had 40 members - it was certainly not a megachurch. Their hatred inspired compassion and tolerance in the hearts of countless thousands. May his troubled soul finally rest in peace.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 11:25 AM

If all you've seen of Phelps, his family, and "his" church has been the news of their picketings, as will likely be the case for most here(?), a "short book length" article giving a fairly complete biography is available and should be of interest.

An introduction to the book, quoted here, as it typically appears at a number of sites, explains the rather curious way in which it was "unpublished, sealed by the court, but public information anyway."

Addicted to Hate: The Fred Phelps Story

[quote]

Cover (Notes from the Anti-Phelps Underground)
IMPORTANT NOTES FROM THE ANTI-PHELPS UNDERGROUND

On June 29, 1994 Jon Michael Bell, a former reporter hired to investigate Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church by Stauffer Communications, Inc.,filed a lawsuit in Shawnee County District Court in Topeka, Kansas against Stauffer Communications alleging the Topeka Capital-Journal owed him compensation for overtime and to clarify ownership of his notes and work product. The work product in question, "Addicted to Hate" chronicling the life and times of Fred Phelps, was attached to the lawsuit as Exhibit A making it, therefore, a public document.

Learning of the suit, members of Topeka's anti-Phelps underground delivered a certified copy of the lawsuit to a copy shop near the courthouse.

Within 48 hours, Stauffer Communications had written all area media outlets and issued veiled warnings about using the information contained in "Addicted to Hate". A rival Topeka newspaper, the Metro News, announced it was considering publishing the lawsuit in it entirety. The Kansas City Star abided by Stauffer Communication's wishes, but several other media outlets aired or printed portions of the manuscript. Within 48 hours of the filing, Stauffer Communications persuaded a judge to seal the suit so the Clerk of the District Court could no longer make copies for the public. No matter - no such order was issued to the copy shop or to the hundreds of citizens that already had copies.

On July 8 the Capital-Journal, which had deep-sixed the Phelps project and fired the publisher who authorized it when it was completed last fall, suddenly began its watered-down, copyrighted series on Phelps that they had earlier claimed they wouldn't print.

Bell also withdrew his suit the same day.

By this time, however, TV networks, wire services, and eastern newspapers had obtained copies of the manuscript, and Stauffer's unprecedented attempt to suppress media discussion of the document attracted the interest of several major East Coast newspapers on First Amendment grounds.

...

[End quote]

The "book" is about 100 pages as I saved it in a single Word .doc, and doesn't take long to read. As posted at this site, it's about 10 separate "Chapter" downloads if you want to save it and put it all together into a single file, but a menu of links lets you jump from chapter to chapter if you just want to read it.

(It has been posted at a number of sites, and you might find it elsewhere in more convenient form. Most sites should show up in a search for "Addicted to Hate.")

John

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 11:23 AM

Fred's dead, a situation to which I give a silent nod and my humble approval.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 10:50 AM

Thanks for the answer, Greg. I guess you never have considered it.

Not so Larry - I gave it the due consideration it deserved & rejected it as nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:41 AM

Stim nailed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Musket
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:20 AM

True. Without professional media interest, bigots would only have outlets such as social media with which to spew their bile.

One more dead, but quite a few to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps (1929-2014)
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:21 AM

I think Stim's right on!

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 11:46 PM

Phelps & Co. were like the geeks in the carnival freak show, who could be counted on to do something disgusting whenever a TV camera was pointed at them, and they boosted news ratings whenever they showed up.

Had the media chosen to ignore them, they would have been an amusing footnote, much like those characters with the "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand" sandwich boards that used to loiter on the fringes of public gatherings.The media chose pushed them into the national spotlight however, and it kept them there.

Cynical types might say that the "Liberal Media" used them to characterized those who oppose gay rights as frothing at the mouth sociopaths, but I don't believe the media has a hidden agenda. I think it was all done for the ratings.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 10:31 PM

Thanks for the answer, Greg. I guess you never have considered it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:08 PM

"But was one of the very few lawyers in that part of the nation the ACLU could count on being willing to take on cases that fought racial discrimination."

As long as the blacks he represented weren't gay!

Sorry Janie, it's not enough.

Hell has a new occupant who deserves extra specially severe treatment.

No tears here for his passing and no respect for his good side, if he even had one, which is doubtful.

That is not hatred, or vengeance! Just a dispassionate assessment of the man and his abhorrent nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:43 PM

your posts that espouse hatred and intolerance

Hello, Larry? What the fook are you talking about?

If Fred Phelps had the capacity to recognize what was truly behind his own hatred

Which he didn't.

I'm wondering if that could have been a first step toward change.

Which it wasn't.

And now.......maybe some of his followers?

Slim chance - but get back to me on that once you have documentation that his asshole "Christian"[sic] followers have had second thoughts and/or converted to tolerance and rationality.

The more we villify a person

Proven villians deserve villification. Or do you want to give this turd a pass?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:56 PM

I'm glad he's gone and wish more of his minions were, but...
The way he and his 'church' treated LGBT people caused a backlash of protectiveness and kindness from average folks that really was a change. Motorcycle gangs protected grieving families, and all sorts of people stepped forward when they never had before. Great evil requires great good to balance out, and often call it forth from where it never existed before.

Life works as a series of pendulum swings. It goes one way, then another, until it slowly works to achieve equilibrium. I figure if it ever does that, it's all over. I don't think there's much chance that'll happen, though. We mostly want evil to be gone, but we need it a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:50 PM

Vilifying is Greg's stock-in-trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Rev Fred Phelps
From: Larry The Radio Guy
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:44 PM

So Greg F, I'm wondering if you've even considered the possibility that your posts that espouse hatred and intolerance (despite that 9:37 A.M. post denying it) are actually the other side of the same coin?

I'm not asking you to 'agree'........but whether you've even considered that possibility and 'explored 'it.....rather than totally discounting it.

If Fred Phelps had the capacity to recognize what was truly behind his own hatred, I'm wondering if that could have been a first step toward change.    And now.......maybe some of his followers?

The more we villify a person, the more invested they are in defending themselves and making their point even 'louder'.