BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:34 PM

Same applies to you, Sawzaw.

Back up your allegation with solid, verifiable documentation or be relegated to the same waste basket as Goofus.

I'm sure you can find some stuff like the World Net Daily or a number of Republican or other Right Wing websites who will back you up, but--

I said solid and verifiable documentation. Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly ain't gonna cut it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:27 PM

"Only IF they are really interested in pursuing the whole story, and getting to the truth.."

Sounds like the fabled 100MPG carburetor we used to hear about. All the conspiracy folk KNEW it existed- they'd heard about it (from each other) for years! The reason it wasn't available because it was hidden by "Big Oil". It was clear that we had never seen one... because it was hidden!

Once a certain crowd is absolutely convinced of a plot or characteristic, they see only stuff that reinforces their belief- even if the argument is almost totally circular. Then, any items that do seem to fit their theory are hammered as 'proof', no matter how few or significant.
I could list a hundred counter examples to "they all do it", and it would make no difference, because the conclusion is already foregone.... and any you couldn't find problems with are just sneakier than the others. (They are probably complicit in hiding that carburetor.)

and round and round we go...

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Sawzaw
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:25 PM

The reality of Democratopia. Democrats have been in charge of Detroit since 1962, not Capitalists.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 02:18 PM

See post by Don Firth.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 01:36 PM

SRS: "You think someone here is going to fall for that challenge?"

Only IF they are really interested in pursuing the whole story, and getting to the truth...problem is, as seen here, is that those who are hook-line-and-sinker into an ideology are going to cherry pick whatever 'news' source they WANT to believe, while dismissing anything seen as critical of 'their' chosen ideology....that's WHY I posted the page with ALL the links.
While pretending to be for one side or the other, once money and/or favors enters the scene, as a way of bribing, influencing, covering up, or obligating legislators, whether they claim to be liberal OR conservative, that corrupted practice IS a form of 'capitalism' at its worse!...AND ultimately results in freedoms being taken away from the people who these phonies are SUPPOSED to be representing!...and instead, what we get, is policies that are dictated, in alliance ideologically, to allow such corrupt behavior....and have people look away, as if "My side is 'winning', so it's excusable because it's for the 'right cause'"....when in reality it is corruption, and it is wrong, and those who think otherwise have become foolish, in their own 'wisdoms'!!!

These people in government are SERVANTS of the people, NOT RULERS!...using their feigned pretenses for their own advantage.
It happens on both sides...because the corrupt perpetrators are not stupid enough to only go after 'one's' side' They need BOTH, to control the national dialogue, and 'resolve the problem' with a compromise, not in the interest of the people..but for themselves. Meanwhile, WE have to 'settle' for policies and laws, regulations and freedom choking, while they make off like bandits!

It's on BOTH sides, and often working with each other, to create an illusion that caters to the ideologues. Just take a look at what has been happening all around you for the last few years...including the past administrations, both parties!

If you'd (or anybody) would get off their ideological high horses, and stand for the truth, no matter where the chips fall, this would be highly visible, and easy to see with clarity.
But as long as you try to fit the corruption, and look the other way, because you THINK it is working on 'your side's' benefit, you are self deluding yourselves, and are tolerating the destruction of all of our freedoms.

Like music...do you only like one kind, and the rest are 'no good'???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 12:30 PM

SRS: "People can say anything - it's finding the reputable sources that is the challenge."

Then pick some you think would be reliable...there are sure a lot of them!

GfS

You think someone here is going to fall for that challenge?

You want to take on Barney Frank, you do the work. But not the half-assed stuff you've presented so far. Why are only those sources appearing? Because you are being lazy or you can't find evidence because it doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:58 AM

Well gee golly, ake,... I believe it is dishonest to do many things that we humans do in order to elbow their way around in various circles.

I also believe it is careless, lazy thinking to 'find' simplistic, knee-jerk answers to extremely complex issues. "They ALL do it!" is a way to avoid even looking for ways to elect those who do NOT do it.

I am aware that access to economic & political power can tempt many to abuse their position. I am also aware that honest politicians must of necessity play by certain rules & learn to compromise and adjust their thinking in order to compete with the obviously dishonest ones. Think: "50% of something is better than 100% of nothing"!

In the US sadly, it is very difficult to get elected without being a good fund raiser... or at least having backers with deep pockets. But one former Senator from Wisconsin, William Proxmire actually refused to accept campaign money in later campaigns. People did not always agree with his votes and reasoning, but no one could say he was 'owned'.


Another one from Wisconsin, Russ Feingold, followed similar paths.

During his 1998 re-election campaign, Feingold once again eschewed big-money campaigning, despite the fact that the National Republican Senatorial Committee had targeted him for defeat.[57][58] Feingold placed a cap on his own fundraising, refusing to raise or spend more than $3.8 million (one dollar for every citizen of Wisconsin) during the campaign.

Both of these... and more I could list... did much to counter the "everyone does it" culture- but they knew they had to work within the system.

It is very hard to work for campaign finance reform when the big money that wants to control things keeps electing those who will vote against it. It seems to be even harder for many in the electorate to bother LOOKING for guys like Feingold & Proxmire... and former Senator Wayne Morse of Oregon...etc. JUst so much easier to wave one's arms and chant.."It's hopeless... they're ALL corrupt!"..hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 11:56 AM

Stu....They know that they cannot regulate Capitalism.
Capitalism is free to roam anywhere in the world in search of victims why should it allow itself to be regulated?
I only really benefits the few with a Capital stake.....no one else really matters.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stu
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 07:39 AM

"But it's the sign of someone who doesn't bother to think come election time."

Except here in the UK we have discovered a significant number of our politicians were crooks, and it's destroyed the faith of the electorate utterly. Even the 'honest' ones were often on the take, with the exception of the odd one or two. Our MP was one of these thieves and the chap that they parachuted in is a carpetbagger with obvious aspirations to the higher echelons on the party, and won't express an opinion for love nor money (even on local issues), nice chap though he seems.

Of course, another reason they are so utterly distrusted is because they won't regulate capitalism and now the middle classes have twigged they might be on wrong side of the comfort fence everyone is at a loss about who to vote for. This is the reason the right has done so well in the UK recently as they have hoodwinked part of the electorate they are anti-establishment, despite being about as establishment as they come.

Libor, the crash, rigging of markets etc etc etc and not a single prosecution. Nick half a pound of cheddar from Tesco's though and they'll throw the book at you.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Jul 14 - 04:06 AM

But Bill, do you not think it is dishonest to conceal the true nature of Capitalism?   They ALL do it, "left" and "right", they all try to persuade us that we control capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:15 PM

"Glickman was reportedly part of the coverup.   .."

By WHOM? You presented no clear evidence by anyone asserting that he was involved in ANY scandal....

GfS...most of the Yahoo links in your search about Frank are 404s. Most of them are also spurious claims by right-wing mud factories.

I am aware that you will CHOOSE to believe and/or repeat any assertion of that sort... especially about Liberals. Get some with some substance or quit huffing & puffing.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:30 PM

The problem between smart questions and foolish answers is quite like the problem between foolish questions and smart answers.

Neither arrive at the meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 09:26 PM

A reliable source for YOUR claim, Goofus.

It's the person making the assertion that is obligated, when challenged, to provide a reliable source, NOT the person challenging the assertion. (Philosophy 115 - first year Logic).

YOU made the statement. YOU back it up.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:51 PM

SRS: "People can say anything - it's finding the reputable sources that is the challenge."

Then pick some you think would be reliable...there are sure a lot of them!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 07:36 PM

I find the post from Gfs scurrilous.

Accusation after accusation, no sources or explication.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:49 PM

Posting a link to Yahoo search results in which all of the links are iffy no-name sources is not a ringing indictment against Barney Frank. People can say anything - it's finding the reputable sources that is the challenge. Try to come up with some of those.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 05:19 PM

Patty Murray, Maria Cantwell, Jim McDermott, Jamie Pederson, for openers, some legislators I know personally. But I could go on and build a pretty long list.

There are a lot of honest politicians.

Smartass cynicism is a dead-end street. It's easy to simply say, "Oh, hell, they're all just a bunch of crooks." But it's the sign of someone who doesn't bother to think come election time. If he votes at all.

It takes some intelligence and awareness of what's going on to pick out the honest candidates from the rest and vote for them. Dismissing them all is the lazy ploy of someone who feels he can shut off his mind (if any) and go out for a beer, while other people are deciding who should run the country.

That doesn't stop him from incessant bitching and complaining, however.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:46 PM

Barney Frank......check it out...HE even admitted that he is corrupt

Here's a bit about Glickman...(besides the Pigford mess):

"Cong. DAN GLICKMAN (D-Kansas)
In the Clinton administration he became head of the Department of Agriculture. BCCI/Banca Nazionale del Lavoro were implicated in a huge Atlanta scandal where billions of U.S. dollars disguised as "Agriculture" loans, were used by Daddy Bush to supply weapons to Iraqi strongman Saddam Hussein. Glickman was reportedly part of the coverup.   

Cong. ROBERT MICHEL (R-Illinois) When faced with an apparent Chicago U.S. Bankruptcy scandal also involving his son, he left Congress.

Cong. RICHARD DURBIN (D-Illinois)      


U.S. SENATE

Here is the reported payoff list of U.S. senators, as of 1990.

Some have since retired or lost elections. Senators....



Steve Symms (Idaho)

Richard Shelby (Alabama) **

Wyche Fowler (Georgia)Alan Dixon (Illinois)

Orrin Hatch (Utah) **

Hank Brown (Colorado) **

Larry Craig (Idaho) **

David Durenberger (Minnesota)

Mark Hatfield (Oregon) **

Howell Heflin (Alabama) **

Daniel Inouye (Hawaii) **

Alfonse D'Amato (New York) **

Wendell Ford (Kentucky) **

Tom Harkin (Iowa) **

Robert Kasten (Wisconsin)

Dan Quayle (Indiana)

Donald Riegle (Michigan)

James Sasser (Tennessee)

Richard Lugar (Indiana) **

Patrick Leahy (Vermont) **

Sam Nunn (Georgia) **

Robert Graham (Florida) **

[** indicates currently in office] [[Note: As of 1995]]"

He appears to be one of those guys who, while working for Bush's corruption, does not get attacked by the 'right'....

More on this scandal and the Bushes

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:06 PM

Dan Glickman has not been in politics since 2001.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 04:03 PM

All politicians are dishonest, they know the nature of Capitalism, which is cyclical, but never impart that knowledge to the "lumpen electorate"
Capitalism, to work well for the few cannot be regulated, when conditions become difficult, finance moves on to greener pastures.
Capitalism uses stolen resources and exploitation of labour to generate profit, when resources become too expensive and labour rates and conditions become unsustainable, Capitalists invest elsewhere.

What happens to the "lumpen electorate"? They live on "monopoly money," watch Big Brother on TV, listen to Justin Beiber, play the lottery, eat junk food and DREAM OF EQUALITY!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:53 PM

"Read his record with the housing outfit.."

Well that's vague enough! You know something I don't? Explain it...clearly.. or post a link


".. the guy who voted for the health bill, and didn't even read it?"

?? What health bill? Glickman has been retired for years. Now in private sector.

" the 'truthfulness' of our fearless leader!"

You first...like certain NON Democrats, you throw mud, hoping some will stick. I debate and/or research specifics, not impassioned arm waving.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 03:34 PM

Barney Frank????!!! You've GOT to be kidding!! Read his record with the housing outfit...corrupt as the day is long!!...Dan Glickman??...Oh, you mean the guy who voted for the health bill, and didn't even read it???...after he swore to uphold the Constitution???..and represent the PEOPLE...instead of his 'party' who was in the pockets of the insurance crooks??...and big pharma..Jeez, just shows you how belonging to a party, causes one to use talking point excuses, in place of the truth!

BTW, nobody is mentioning the 'truthfulness' of our fearless leader!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 01:04 PM

"Can you name ONE honest politician?." just one?

Bernie Sanders...

just retired after 30+ years Barney Frank

I can do more.. in fact, as far as I can tell so far, my own Representative, Chris Van Hollen, fits.

In 1978 in Kansas, I worked for the campaign of Dan Glickman who served 18 years, then became Sec. of Agriculture and a respected member of the Intelligence committee. I heard of some who disagreed with him, but never heard anyone accuse him of dishonesty.

It is not necessarily the case that being in politics automatically means 'dishonest'.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:41 PM

I can think of a honest politician or two this side of the pond and I am sure there are some your side too.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:28 PM

Corruption is corruption...simple as that. Can you name ONE honest politician?..If you think you can, maybe it's only that his/hers corrupted lies have corrupted your minds, as well!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:14 PM

The only issue with that would be to accept Goofus is presenting a solution rather than a problem. For once.

Looks like you are going to have to look further....

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:13 PM

The Koch charities deserve a thread to themselves, many of which are supportive of "economic freedom."

Others support cancer research, nature conservancy.

The latter tend to disguise the first.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:10 PM

Capitalism is not the problem....corruption is!
Communism is not the problem.... corruption is!
Socialism isn't the problem....corruption is!

...and as long as they keep firing us with lying rhetoric, we FAIL to see the REAL problem...and turn one against another!!!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 12:05 PM

Ed T, much you say is true. The sane voices in favor of regulation and moderation are drowned out.
The loud, strident voices must be met by sane political parties who can explain to members how balanced economies can be achieved- and members (the public) who do not idolize "big winners."

Somehow, the best we can hope for is muddling through, with periodic casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 14 - 11:37 AM

There is nothing wrong with Capitalism... in abstract theory.... just as there is little wrong with Communism.... in abstract theory. (And, there is nothing wrong with labor unions... in abstract theory.)

Trouble is, almost any institution tends to desire as little regulation as possible and to maximize its influence and ability to control.... which almost invariably leads to some degree of abuse.

In the US, labor unions fought for years to get recognition and power to combat the repression of corporations; then when they did, they often became as greedy & corrupt AS the corporations.... and thus lost much of their influence.
Now, with the help of the Conservative packed Supreme Court and less regulation, the cycle is starting over.... with certain hard to clarify differences due to the WWW and international trade.
At the same time, there is a new movement for increasing the minimum wage which is gaining strength... and the predictable resistance from many businesses.

My point? ALL institutions need regulation to keep a sane balance on things, but those who care little about "sane balance" work very hard to become the active force in the regulation! There are SO few voices trying to advocate a balanced system, as most ... on either side... just spout hyperbole about their side of the issues.

One of the latest revelations is that the Koch Brothers, who have billions to play with, have been busy donating to many colleges & endowing chairs in areas designed to tilt the playing field towards NON-regulation and **free market** commerce (translation: "we get to do anything we want")

King Canute had it easy...

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 12:07 PM

Jus pointing out that rise and fall of commodity prices are carefully followed by investors. The effect on subsections of society is inevitable.

Presently, unemployment is at 6.1 percent. The bottom 4 percent of this section is effectively unemployable.
Capitalism is alive and recovering rapidly from 2008. Some controls are in effect, but more will be needed.

A problem exists, however; the middle income group is being squeezed and no one seems to have a solution. The purchasing power of this group is reduced and is having a negative effect on the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Stu
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 12:00 PM

"Capitalism is doing just fine. Thing is, too many people are broke."

That is capitalism. You need poor people to build your stuff cheaply so you can sell it on at a profit. Inequality is built into the system. Someone has to suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

Truer words was never spoke.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 11:43 AM

Q ably points out a fault and considers it a virtue.

I thought I was a dirty rotten stinking capitalist but life is full of surprises.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 14 - 10:46 AM

House demand is up. Some friends who bought up housing at depressed prices are reaping a rich harvest.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 11:20 PM

Ed T, that is an excellent and insightful article. Thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

One side of the tracks - people without homes.

The other? Repossessed homes with no people in.

Er?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jul 14 - 05:43 PM

a perspective from one of the .01 percent 

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 Jun 14 - 01:26 PM

Capitalism is doing just fine. Thing is, too many people are broke.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 04:38 PM

Send more rocks.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 04:19 PM

So.. You allow the likes of Danny Joe Morrismo to purchase guns eh?

How are you getting on with those rocks I gave you?

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 04:19 PM

When I buy a car, I like to know where it is made, as much as what badge is on the front.
Quality in design can be negated by poor workmanship, as has been experienced in some locals by all brands, seeking to get an advantage from a cheap workforce (in addition to access to new markets).

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: GUEST,Danny Joe Morrisimo
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:59 PM

The prodigious number of liberal morons in the country is the foremost danger to the U.S.A.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:58 PM

It seems that the future car is an international game, with many of the old tariff barriers worked outnor crumbling.

A major concern seems to be quality, beyond design, as workforce isdues have noof been worked out, in all cases.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 03:45 PM

Not building in The USA.

Case rested.

Belguim built Ford Kugas are sold to China though.....

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 01:32 PM

More digression.
No crisis in U. S. auto manufacture.
Ed. T's figures show that the high stakes game in motor vehicle sales is China.
Some details-
1. VW 183,000
2. Hyundai 84,000
3. and 4. Nissan + Toyota, 91,000
5. and 6. Buick and Chevrolet, 124,000
Ford, 73,000 sales set for 2014.

Ford is building its 5th factory in China, playing catch-up to GM, which has 12% 0f the market.
GM is investing 12 billion, including a 1.3 billion dollar plant to make Cadillacs. GM Shanghai plant has 13% of Asian sales. GM is aiming at a total of 5 million cars/year.
(Total China sales all makes now about 22 million/year.)

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 08:01 AM

Where did that come from?

An early draft!

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Musket
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 08:00 AM

Q. True except let's just point out Ford Europe bailed out Ford Inc. Opel, (GM in Europe to include Vauxhall) wasn't in a position to bail out GM.

You can't point out UK sales and point to America. They are different companies building different cars for a different market.

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 06:52 AM

An interesting developmentbin the auto production world, Thailand a challenge to Indias auto production growth.

Thialand emerging player in auto manufacturing 

Subject: RE: BS: The crisis of capitalism in the USA
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Jun 14 - 06:35 AM

Background figures of motor vehicle production by country.

motor vehicle production by country