BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 09:47 AM

On the Anniversary of Atomic Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki:


major anniversaries 

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Musket
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 09:05 AM

And after ensuring the table legs were covered for decency sake, step out in the midday sun to oversee tying a few natives to the mouths of cannons.

To be fair, such self assurance is indeed a weakness.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 08:53 AM

Ed T - take it from a citizen of the country that conquered the country that produced the kama sutra, whilst furtively covering up piano legs the world over - theres real weakness in that kind of strength.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 04:42 PM

Well, maybe so, but weak willed?

That one seems kinda "off" to me.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 01:58 PM

well isn't th playground bully usually some sort of emotional fuck up?

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 09:01 AM

"I suppose its a lot for weak willed people to give up cold turkey."

IMO, It seems odd to refer to people who support capital punishment as weak willed?

How should we refer to those represented by (and support) governments that engage in many wars and bombings, that kill many innocent people?

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 05:46 AM

anyway if you want to slide into depravity, there are nicer ways than killing people.....

unless of course,as one suspects, there are people getting a considerable amount of creepy fun from killing people - death cell dramas, men in suits making impassioned pleas to kill some social inadequate, orgies of self righteousness......

I suppose its a lot for weak willed people to give up cold turkey.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 03:27 AM

"different standards are demanded by the doo·gooders,"
Now there's a telling phrase (though I prefer the correct spelling do- gooders - those who try to do good)
For me, the opposite has always been 'do badders' happy to have the 'insult' hurled at me any time.
This seems to be one of those discussion in which opinions that are presented 'seeing both sides of the argument' gradually reveal themselves to have been firmly on one side from the start
We have been here before, I seem to remember, when we discussed whether it was right to execute someone who was regarded by the law as being a child.
My opinion remains now as it was then, whatever the crime (in that case, the horrific murder of a child, Jamie Bulger, by two older children) the taking of any life is wrong, ritual killing by the State is a reminder of our primitive past - long may it remain such.
And still no comment on the tsunami of deaths of innocent people that would have taken place had Capital Punishment been operative thirty years ago.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 09:58 PM

a blind eye mental paralysis.....I would have applied for a blue badge for parking, if I knew that was me problem!

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:18 PM

Nobody is 'comparing' anything; so much as wondering why different standards are demanded by the doo·gooders, as between authorities of different traditions. Only answer I can come up with, I repeat, is racism; in the implied sense of "nothing better can be expected of those backward orientals, but decent westerners like us should know better". How else can one interpret these double standards?

I repeat: when the anti-cap-pun kneejerk collides with the anti-racist kneejerk, the result is a sort of blind-eye mental paralysis.

Anyone got any intellectual argument against this contention, other than tendentious *quasi-rhetorical questions?

≈M≈

*Tho, treating Al's question at face value: I think the USA, overall, rather less vulnerable to obloquy in this particular than, eg, Saudi, Yemen, N Nigeria, et al [tho I would point out that "all right" was his formulation, not mine]...
Anyone disagree?

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:49 PM

SOME wogs, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 02:17 PM

so basically you want us to think that the Yanks are all right compared to the wogs.....

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 11:20 AM

"the barbaric Islamic practices both of us find abhorrent, but one of the problems of discussing them at length is that there are those among us (not necessarily you - I would like not to think so) who will use them as proof of the degenerate nature of Muslim culture as a whole " - Jim Carroll

.,,.

No need to try to spare my feelings in this particular, Jim.   That is precisely what I think them proof of - for reasons which I have taken considerable pains to explicate at length at least 3 times on this forum: on the Unnamed Soldier thread on 10 Jun 13; and on the Islamic Radicalism thread on 12 Jun 13 & 14 Apr 14. They are there and accessible if you want to read my views as to the IMO mischievous nature & effects of this faith, due to its founder's teachings and the path it has followed since. I daresay I might once more get your "Can't be arsed" response; but if so, then don't take me to task for holding views whose reasons I have taken some trouble to exegesise, if not willing at least to remind yourself what they are.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:15 AM

I think you'll find on a quality / price ratio, Bangladesh can comfortably win the tender Al.

Indonesian people are beginning to demand a fair wage these days, apart from up around Aceh, but shipping in quantity is a bit of an issue there, especially since the tsunami buggered up the deepest dock.

Harrods wouldn't be too interested. They haven't recovered fully since the last Muslim to own them. Owning and catering for is not an ideal business model. Primark with a stack em up and flog em cheap is the model I would recommend.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 08:20 AM

I am not really sure what attitude you want us to have to the hand choppers, Mike.

Obviously a Thatcherite tory - would just make sure we got the contract for choppers made with Chinese steel in Indonesia - and start selling one handed pairs of gloves in Harrods.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 07:40 AM

"You miss my point entirely, Jim. But that is nothing new."
And you miss, or avoid my point - but there's nothing new in that either.
I don't support ritual killing in any form, and if I am involved a discussion on it I will condemn it, as, I believe, would anybody here in the same circumstances.
I can't recall anybody actually supporting some of the barbaric Islamic practices both of us find abhorrent, but one of the problems of discussing them at length is that there are those among us (not necessarily you - I would like not to think so) who will use them as proof of the degenerate nature of Muslim culture as a whole - as a stick to beat all Muslims.
If there are any double standards, it is with those who are happy to use these practices to malign the 'baddie Muslims' but are happy to ignore them in or trading partners - Saudi Arabia, for instance - I still have vivid memories of the political furore over the screening of 'Death of a Princess' years ago.
A nation which declares itself "civilised" and "democratic" and tends to hold itself superior to others, such as Britain and the United States undermines those claims when it indulges in primitive, ritualistic judicial killing.
As a Brit living in Ireland, if it was reinstated as a practice here it would have been done so in my name, so whoever carries it our does so in my name.
Again, in reference to missing or avoiding the point, there has been little response to the fact that, had capital punishment been part of British law a whole bunch of innocent men and women would have gone to the drop in the last forty years, particularly during 'The Troubles'.
If for no other reason, it would have knocked me flying off any fence I might have been sitting on.
Here's to Lord Denning, gawd bless 'im.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:40 AM

Maybe not every, Al. But these are democracies I write of, with elected governments. & their electorates go on electing the choppers hangers stoners crucifiers caners — again & again & again & again.... & the attitude among our brethren on this sort of thread seems to be, oh well, different culture, what can you expect of the likes of them, let them get on with it...

Pure racism in other words. They think it isn't but it is...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:38 AM

Michael, in his Rupert Bear, Jerusalem with jam world, thinks that if you decry one set of people for behaviour, you must therefore support others doing the same thing.

It must be idyllic in leafy suburbia where the only sound is the scrape of butter knife on hot crumpets.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:24 AM

Apparently Allah's house, like our own creation has many mansions. not every muslim is a hand chopper.

however I think the hand choppers are arseholes. bit like the witch burners, the eye for an eyers, the UDA priests, the IRA priests, the bomb blessers.....

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:38 AM

You miss my point entirely, Jim. But that is nothing new.

It's your double standards I am drawing attention to. You get hysterical about any executions in what, for convenience [& don't pretend not to understand] may be termed The West. But Islamic regimes all execute people like there is no tomorrow. They hang them they stone them, they crucify them, they behead them... & you just ignore that -- different standards for the -- er -- 'outsiders', or what? A bit racist, if you ask me: you lot seem to be saying, "Oh, well, they are only --er-- 'outsiders', so what can you expect? But we civilised Westerners, OTOH..."

The question of whether the West should or shouldn't indulge in the practice is not one I was addressing at all. Can't get that worked up about it these days. The way the Saudis & Yemenis & N Nigerians go on, tho...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:37 AM

It was fifty years ago today that we had our last execution. Two men hanged at the same time in different prisons for the same crime.

In terms of how civilised "civilised" is, the trial began in June and by August it was all over. The actual execution, from the hangman entering the cell to death was just over 10 seconds. (A wardrobe in the cell was actually a door to the chamber.)

If we have to bring humanity into it, them compare us fifty years ago with USA today, making them wait years followed by thirty minutes of agonising pain.

Anybody under the age of fifty in The UK has always lived in a civilised society by that particular measurement.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:21 AM

What are you saying Mike - that we should be allowed to shuffle of the mortal coil of others in a more 'civilised' fashion?
It seems to me that the only difference is in the manner in which different groups, States or individuals take it upon themselves to end the lives of our fellow human beings
Pointing the finger at one doesn't make the other less barbaric.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 12:58 AM

All this way into this thread we have been avoiding this one. So here comes a cat to infiltrate the pigeons.

How funny that nothing has been said about all those parts of the world governed by that different set of values and principles, where they so regularly smash heads in with big stones and slash off heads with ornate swords and stretch necks on cranes with ropes.

When the OK-thinker's anti-cap-pun kneejerk comes into collision with the bien-pensant's would-never-do-to-appear-racist kneejerk -- why, what should kick in but that good old turn·a·blind·eye kneejerk!...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 11:49 PM

Mmmmm, looks like you're starting to grow up.
Cut out the childish name-calling they taught you at your little-rich-boy posh school, and get that stupid hair cut properly, and you'll really be on the right road to adulthood.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:24 PM

Damn, I have to agree with Primitive Tribesman.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:11 PM

" I'm inclined to think that that 'definition' is really what one would call an emotional opinion. "

Viewed objectively, it is exactly that. One must ask.... when exactly did the fairly neutral word 'kill' become the judgmental word 'murder'?

Murder, I'd think is a specific sub-category of 'kill'... as is 'execute'. It is not necessary to approve of any of them in order to comprehend intended differences related to proper and/or moral actions.

If a policeman defends himself or others by firing his weapon at a depraved person who is about to 'kill' someone, isn't it clear that we need more than one word?...and more than one concept of 'admissible killing'?

No doubt Osama talked himself & others into some rationalization for killing by terrorism... so if we had known the plan and intercepted those terrorists as they tried to enter airplanes, and 'killed' them when they fought back... don't we need a word to call our justified action?

Similarly, 'execution' means something different from simple 'murder', whether we approve of it in ANY circumstance, in SOME circumstances, or never.

Like Michael, I can see why people have different views, and I can assure everyone that MY vacillation on the issue has nothing to do with revenge! IF I saw a situation where I reluctantly approved an execution, it would be a matter of pragmatism.. relating to "the greater good for society in general". I can describe such a situation, but I'd not enjoy having to deal with it in reality.

.. One time, almost 40 years ago, I was 'acquainted', in an unfortunately personal way with a young man who was as close as I ever knew to 'evil'. He was in fact, the nephew of a convicted mass-murderer, and because he knew several other young people who stayed at my house, he ran into my house while being pursued by police. I came home to find police, guns drawn, surrounding my house.
*I* led the police in and found him, and fortunately, he was not armed. He was taken away, but evidently not for long enough... 2 years later, he and his buddies attacked ME on a dark street while I was driving, throwing bottles and trying to stop my van. I managed to get to a public street and evade him, but I never found out what he might have done if......

So..if anyone wonders why circumstances vary depending on one's own situation.....

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: olddude
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:29 PM

It is an act of only revenge it does nothing to deter. Why not Impaling, the rack, boiling in oil . Revenge is revenge. It is as wrong now as the drawn and quartered was back when. There is no humane way to kill

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:31 PM

"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

    ...Carl Schurz

Is this USA bashing by a USAsian?

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 12:27 PM

'Any country that executes people is by definition depraved.'

Funny, I did not find that definition in any hard-copy dictionary nor in any online dictionary. I'm inclined to think that that 'definition' is really what one would call an emotional opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 10:53 AM

Thank you Ebbie.
In most respects I'm very USA-friendly, but with regard to gun-ownership and the death-penalty (or, more accurately, its refusal to grow a pair, and make those into things of the past) I believe the US displays a very dark and unpleasant side to its national identity.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 10:04 AM

I usually am, to put it mildly, put off by USA bashing and tire of it quickly. However, on the subject of capital punishment I agree with every word that has been written here.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM

Mahatma Ghandi was once asked his opinion of Western civilistion
His reply - "It would be a good idea".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 08:25 AM

The most accurate measure of how 'civilised' a nation is, IMHO, is the value it places on life, both human and non-human.

The gigantic hard-on the vast majority of Americans get from possession of firearms (and thus the means to take life), the orgasmic delight many seem to take in shooting wild animals and one another, and the obsession with continuing the policy of execution of those convicted of murder (in many cases having already subjected them to a period of incarceration far exceeding that which most muderers would serve in Europe) indicates that, in the USA, life is regarded as very cheap indeed.

Civilised?

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:54 AM

Just makes a case for asking how TS Eliot was "civilised," whatever that means, other than we are judging today's enlightened times, not yesterday.

I wonder if the newspapers of the day reported how her guts would probably prolapse from her as she came to a sudden stop?

I recall reading an article a few years ago where the Iranian government said they were more civilised than Singapore because their use of cranes and slow strangulation prevents this from happening.

The USA feel they are civilised because they make their children stand to attention in front of their damned ragged flag.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:40 AM

Mike and Musket - last of the great double acts!

sorry about the scansion Mike, twas late at night and between Jeremy Kyle shows - the dead hour between four and five - just murder cases on the ID channel.

can anyone follow my argument about capital punishment. you can call it uncivilised - but many civilised people have been fans of CP. I believe TS Eliot wrote a letter to the Times approving of the death sentence on Edith Thompson.

it really does come down to your sensibility. there is a famous George Orwell essay called a hanging. while they are marching this Indian guy to the gallows, a friendly dog runs up to the hanging party -excited to have found so many people to play with. when they hang the man the dog slinks away appalled -even a dog knows this is a disgusting activity. Every human being knows damn well it is, too.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:06 AM

Bum face?

Just noticed that.

A bit rich coming from someone prone to talking out of his arse methinks..

Back to the depraved act of killing your own failings, I notice that despite everything, The USA killed another man yesterday. This amid debate and soul searching.

Any success with that rock banging yet?

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:01 AM

Justice as seen by those who administer it.
"It is better an innocent man serves a life sentence than the law is seen to be making grave errors" – Lord Denning, former Lord Chief Justice
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Thompson
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:53 AM

Any country that executes people is by definition depraved.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:47 AM

The kids a poet, he just don't know it.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:27 AM

Surely "a shitter", Al?

Have said before, see no obligation to behave any more consistently than anyone else.

So if I feel like reading Bumface's posts, then I shall. In general, tho, shall not. Matter of my choice; not his. No 'principle' involved.

& as to doxies...

〠≈M≈〠

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 11:25 PM

said Michael, how awfully poxy!
my moronicism exposed as oxy
its really shitter
were I younger and fitter
I'd console myself with a doxie

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:30 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Musket
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:00 AM

Sorry Michael, your Boys Own Annual 1924 has let you down in its "when to shout oxymoron" inset.

The Judgement of Death Act 1823 defined the word murder in the legal sense for the first time in The UK. it had been a crime before, but had never been described in a strict legal sense.

It allowed provision for those involved in passing and carrying out sentence of death, (the judge, court officials, prison staff and hangman) to be absolved of the crime of aiding and abetting a murder when carrying out sentence. This was because murder described the act, not the reason. Reason led to the categories of mitigation, but murder is simply the premeditated taking of the life of a human in the legal sense.

Each piece of legislation up to and including The Homicide Act 1957 makes reference to it and carries the provision.

Hence "judicial murder" has a judicial definition.

Seems you certainly are moronic after all Michael....

Oh, and stop reading my posts. Your lack of principles is showing. Having principles at your age isn't a good idea anyway, as you have to remember to be consistent.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:31 AM

"I think it more likely that the families would have continued their efforts to demonstrate the men's innocence"
Which would have been a great comfort to the six innocent men, I'm sure!
As it was, they served seventeen years in prison for a crie they didn't commit.
The police were aware of the identity of the culprit, but did nothing to follow it up - it took a book, Error of Judgement, by M.P. Chris Mullins to free the men eventually
"I think the judge may have been wrong"
I AM DE JUDGE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:54 AM

Murder is illegal.

So judicial murder is [oxy]moronic...

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Musket
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 02:43 AM

Dictionaries aside, calling it anything other than judicial murder is to sanitise a gruesome act. A bit like US prisons supplying toys for children to play with when they visit their father for the very last time....

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 12:59 AM

I am more or less neutral on this question: one where I can see the arguments both sides too clearly to have a definite view. Not proud of this, but just the way I see it.

But I can see, Al, that tendentious emotive use of words like "murder", as in the post immediately above, have the opposite effect to clarifying anything, but are merely foolishly and counter-productively provocative.

This is a topic on which many people's emotions run high. Exacerbating them by such locutions has the opposite effect to forwarding intelligent consideration of the matter IMO.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 01:16 PM

but what about citizens without political influence, without friends and family to mourn them - are they to have consideration of their cases; no protection from the forces of law and order.

no protection from politicians too chickenshit to face down the sadistic buggers who want to see someone killed -no matter what the justification. or from the turds in suits in the prosecutors office pleading in court for a murder to take place.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 04:13 AM

"if they'd been hanged. They'd have been forgotten and the whole community would have been satisfied"

I think the judge may have been wrong in this assumption. I think it more likely that the families would have continued their efforts to demonstrate the men's innocence, and the public outrage would have been all the greater when it was finally proved.

Subject: RE: BS: USA sliding into depravity (botched execution)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 06:47 AM

no of course not. I had no time for hanging judges, like Denning.

what i'm saying ,   or trying to say - the communists say you have to follow the dialectic, the church will tell you its the bible, the tories that you can't buck world economics......there is always someone from Margaret Thatcher to Allah who will supply you with a reason to kill, to sin, to commit evil acts.

god knows you live in a land with a goodly number of self righteous murderers - you should know.