BS: at heart an american site?

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Silas
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 04:55 PM

Just because you have made a complete fool of yourself, don't use me as a whipping boy, people can see through this silly bluster.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:32 PM

Describe that foolishness, please. In excruciating detail. Then prove it. You can't. You and others who want to behave badly don't like it when one of the moderators deletes a post or closes a thread. It's damned if you do and damned if you don't as a volunteer moderator, Silas, but it isn't a democracy, so I suggest you start your own website and then you can be as nasty as you want to be.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:43 PM

uh oh.. meanwhile in an alternative universe...

Leadership under pressure

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Janie
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:26 PM

Silly season, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:27 PM

Dear mods, thank you for your work here.
I love this site, and but for your freely given time and effort, it would be lost.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 07:32 PM

It's interesting nobody has yet mentioned the cross-fertilisation of the folk world between the two communities, of the 18th Century folksongs lost in England but surviving in the Appallachians, and the undeniable boost of American country-based folk in the 1960s, as a reason for the Cat being International.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 08:07 PM

With the last three posts, Janie, Keith, and Guest, this thread returns to the real world.

It seems than there are a fair number of people out there who are hell-bent on pissing on their own shoes and they get bent out of shape at someone else when their socks get wet.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:10 AM

Your last post appears to be a bit of a disingenuous copout SRS, in that you were indubitably the mod who posted on the Cliff Richard thread the comment which gives this thread its title.

Is not that so?

& the thread is concerned with the Americanness or otherwise of the forum, not with the identificatability of individual mods for specific deletions; so you are endeavouring IMO to disinfect your gaffe by drift.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Silas
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:03 AM

I think stilly is being a bit silly. I have simply asked her to justify or at least explain her rather odd remark yet all she wants to do is throw abuse in my direction.

Any nastiness and name calling is from her corner, not mine.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:40 AM

Well, I don't always agree with the mods, but without them this forum would not exist as a platform for free discussion.
I would like to see those who habitually use obscenity, cursing, name calling, in place of civilised debate permanently removed, as they contribute nothing and intimidate many.

Leave the mods alone to get on with their onerous job, and remember, they are not saints THEY have views just like the rest of us and it must be almost impossible to be entirely even handed ALL of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:44 AM

I've just put this in the 'Cliff Richard' thread, then saw this thread, so I'll put it here too, as it's relevant to what is being said in here. Now, I'm off, being English and therefore no longer needed in Mudcat. Take it, Maggie, and shove your American site where the sun don't shine!


"This kind of low-brow slug fest thread is an embarrassment to the mudcat community and is, I believe, a huge part of the reason why so many serious musicians have fled. If this is "culture" then I would suggest it is a mold or fungus, it isn't contributing to the music conversation of blues and folk. And this is, at heart, an American site.

SRS"


A prime example of how you think, Maggie. This site USED to be for discussion of music (and other issues below the line here) from ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

Now, it is becoming YOUR site, where you delete ANY posts, or posters, that you dislike or take offence over.

Cliff Richard was, in his time, the Elvis Presley of this country and inspired many people over here to go into music, as some have already stated.

The link to Rolf Harris is significant because he, like Rolf, was one of our top entertainers once. Now, many of these folks are in hell purely because of Jimmy Savile and the government's over-reaction to get other heads to roll in place of his.

What is happening is scary, outrageous and, illegal, although the Crown Prosecution Service has now changed the rules, it seems to make it all legal....

This is not JUST about 'famous folks' either, for this WILL affect ALL men in this country, who, quite frankly, no longer have a voice, and who are now deemed to be guilty no matter what stupid, unbelievable accusations are hurled at them.

Maybe you're a feminist and take umbridge at me DARING to stand up against The Fecking Sisterhood who have wrought so much damage upon Men over decades...if so, that's not my fault.

Cliff has been hanged, drawn and quartered because of the internet, and I can assure you I know EXACTLY how that feels. There is NO evidence he was at Elm Tree OTHER than his name being found on a list. No-one knows the motive of the person who wrote that list, nor what actually took place within the walls of that house.

Some may be telling the truth, but there are also many Narcissists out there who believe their own lies, spew out words to bring carnage to others via the internet, without ANY thought for how their lies impact upon those whom they write the most vicious lies about...Nor do they CARE either....

Operation Yewtree is rocking this country to its' core...and having read over half of Jim Davidson's book now (like him or loathe him) I can assure ALL men that NONE of them are safe any longer, for if ANY woman makes an accusation against you now, the police cannot tell her to push off with her ridiculous story, which they may well have heard 10 times over before from the same woman, because ALL women MUST now be believed and ALL men viewed as being guilty unless they can prove otherwise...and if you don't know where you were 'somewhere in the 80s' (as NO specific year or venue is now even required) then you're scuppered, basically...

Total, fecking persecution of men!

ONCE Mudcat was a REAL community where so many gathered from around the world and we were allowed to argue and throw humour and anger back and forth...

Now, YOU rule the roost and ANYTHING which does not match up to YOUR liking gets zapped....and THAT is the MAIN reason, along with the foulness of those who use the 'GUEST' button to bully and belittle, why Mudcat is dying on its' feet now...

So, ENJOY your AMERICAN site....and carry on bashing hell out of anyone who's NOT American, or who DARES to post NON-MUSIC topics in the NON-MUSIC section of Mudcat....

It's all fecking yours, Maggie!

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Stu
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 07:07 AM

"are we going to go on about the "web" is at heart an American site"

Invented by a still-extant British chap. Please don't continue with any more cultural appropriation than we already put up with from the US. We love you, but you didn't invent all the best stuff (except Twin Peaks and Bruce Springsteen of course).

As for Mudcat . . . it is an American site, so what's the fuss about. SRS's comment was a tad boorish, but pales compared to some of the guff spouted on here. The mods do this for nowt, and that's to be respected even if they don't understand us who still live in the old country.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM

Akenaton and Lizzie Cornish complaining about what people post.

This thread gets more surreal by the minute.

Nice to see Akenaton wanting those who offend others in their posts removing. Alternatively, give the moderators a rest and piss off back in your hole.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 09:15 AM

Posting public declarations of support, loyalty and allegiance to the moderators of this site is fair enough.

Posting sycophantic unconditional declarations of support, loyalty and allegiance to the moderators of this site...

hmmmmmmmm.....????

Super Size Cultural hegemony with a side order of fries - anyone... ????

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 09:31 AM

A brief peek below the line - and a quick realization why I mostly don't any more.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: bobad
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 09:36 AM

"Alternatively, give the moderators a rest and piss off back in your hole."

Thus spake the resident from the neighbouring hole.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 11:00 AM

Mudcat at heart an American site? Seems fairly self evident. If Max folded his tent there would be no Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 11:24 AM

The full quote from the other thread:

This kind of low-brow slug fest thread is an embarrassment to the mudcat community and is, I believe, a huge part of the reason why so many serious musicians have fled. If this is "culture" then I would suggest it is a mold or fungus, it isn't contributing to the music conversation of blues and folk. And this is, at heart, an American site.

I rest my case. There is a faction - a small percentage - of the UK crowd who fly off the handle at the drop of a hat. Some of them visited this spinoff thread to illustrate that skill set. Here in North America we have a collection of our own online sociopaths, but the most conspicuous set of junk yard dogs clearly comes from the UK. This kind of internecine combat has turned Mudcat into a laughing stock to those serious musicians who ever stray below the line. "BS" was intended for non-music topics, not for "take it out in the alley, mate."

Flypaper to catch buzzing and stinging insects. And stink bugs - lots of stink bugs.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: GUEST,bigrickpa
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 11:24 AM

(to the music from a dr. pepper commercial years ago)
"i'm offended, she's offended,we're offended, they're offended, wouldn't you like to be offended too"
this thread is a prime example of why so many have left mudcat.
does the phrase " don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out" apply here?

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 11:29 AM

Ebbie - No arguing with that - as always, absolutely understood and accepted.

As long as a certain mod also remembers the fact that this is Max's site and not hers....

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 12:25 PM

I think this thread should be closed, please give the moderators a break.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:22 PM

oh.. really GSS.. it's not as if mods are a delicate endangered species...
Of course, it's nice of you to stand up for 'em.
what a gent.

Seriously, if one of the mods was to cry "it's not fair, stop it, leave us alone"

fair enough, no need for any unnecessary spiteful nastyness..

However, whilst at least one mod wishes to actively engage in public discusssion to try to account for herself.

Fair game, as long as it stays reasonably civilised.

To which I say:

manipulation of the truth to suit an ideosyncratic version of events,
stating personal bias and prejudice as if it were fact,
are not admirable traits in a group leader......

But as we all learn at great cost,
resorting to such cynical strategies does work very effectivly for leaders
indulging in petty power games, at every level of social interaction in grim unforgiving real world........

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:26 PM

Aw, fuck the mods.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:35 PM

even the old & decrepit ones? ☺

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:41 PM

Yes, it's all red meat.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:46 PM

and mod the fucks. Count me amongst the drooling sycophants that appreciate the job the mods do keeping this place semi-civilised for no pay and an undeserved amount of abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:49 PM

Really, what is the point in grouping offensive Mudcat posters by nationality, SRS?

The people you are talking about are offensive INDIVIDUALS, and I can't see that it has any connection at all with their nationality.

The fact that you carry this on by arguing your point in this thread, adds to the degree in which this once wonderful place is going downhill. The professional way for a moderator to deal with the problem is to stay out of the argument.

:(

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Silas
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 02:06 PM

Well, as the OP for this thread I really was going to keep out of this, but after the Anglophobic post from SRS I think I need to respond.
The question asked was why this particular mod thought that Mudcat was an American site at heart.
This was a serious question; it was not 'trolling' or mischief making. I found her statement to be rather offensive and I would like to tell you why.
No one disputes that the site is American owned and administered, that is a given, and most of us are very grateful for its presence. However, if you look at the average daily posting, you will find that there is a disproportionate amount of posts from the UK. Not a slight anomaly, but a huge contribution is made by UK posters. If you further take into account the relative size of populations of the two countries, it becomes immediately apparent that the main interest in Mudcat is from the UK. Furthermore, when Max comes cap in hand for funds to maintain Mudcat, I reckon we are not slow in responding.
Now, I believe that the 'heart' of any forum is its members; it cannot possibly be anything else, for without them you have no site. Up to now I had considered Mudcat to be a truly international forum, but perhaps I am wrong.
I have been on this site for nearly ten years. When you get long established sites, they form their own community and, like all communities, they have good points and bad ones. Lifetime friendships have been formed here as well as lifetime feuds, people fall out, people make friends - that is what communities do – they are not happy clappy places all the time – this is the real world.
I resent strongly being called a troll by a mod just because she does not agree with me or does not like what I post. It is very childish and immature behaviour, particularly from a mod.
Blaming the UK for all Mudcat ills is, frankly, ridiculous. We are all adults here (though some of us do not behave like it sometimes) and we are quite capable of sorting out our own disputes without heavy handed moderation, and before people start barking off again of how downtrodden the poor moderators are, think on this. OK they are volunteers, they don't have to do it and they give up their valuable time to do it. That does not make them immune to criticism, and if they don't like it they can easily chuck in the towel, because believe me, for every mod there is, there are at least forty people willing to take their place (and do at least as good a job and in some cases a better job).
Turning this forum into a UK versus US is simply divisive and, if I may say, stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:25 PM

Silas, you say "I have been on this site for nearly ten years. I have been here since almost the beginning -Nov.1996. I have met Max, Joe Offer, Jeri, Big Mick and various other mods & regulars in person for years. We have discussed many thing...including what a joy...and a lot of work.. it is to have so many diverse inputs & knowledge...however


"..., it becomes immediately apparent that the main interest in Mudcat is from the UK."

That is not exactly the case. It is at least misleading as to relevance.
While is is quite true that posts from the UK have increased until they do seem to be a majority on most days, it is crucial to understand the cultural, demographic and geographic differences.

The US is so large that many 'folk music oriented' people have never met each other, and have little easy opportunities to do so. A few HAVE traveled from distant parts to special events like the FSGW Getaway, but that can be expensive and only a few can do it often.

The UK is small enough that it is possible for folks to plan around a number of festivals... or even popular folk clubs. I am sure that a much larger % of 'folkies' have at least met each other over there. I envy them, even though I meet many from BOTH UK & US at the Getaway.

The UK also has a MUCH more developed system of clubs & festivals than we do...perhaps because of its size, but also because of its history as a major source of much source material and the relevant archives and recordings. I have collected recordings from & about English, Scottish...etc... folk music for many years, and I also envy those who have so much history right near them.

Now... the cultural element: however you want to analyze it, there are discernible differences in HOW the world.... not just musically... is viewed. (A couple of posters from the UK have agreed/admitted/discussed that the debates, banter (including insults- serious or not), and 'hot buttons' are often different. I have mentioned my amazement at the level of chaos in Prime Minister Questions when I see them on BBC America. The 'fine art' of zinging each other.... whether playfully or seriously... is common over there- not so much here, except in certain groups and by rigidly enforced rules.
...So, when debates ensue in an online forum- Mudcat being a major one- the UK folk often have 'stronger' opinions and express them more...ummm... 'intensely'. There are, of course, individual personality differences but the cultural ones show thru. And then we have what we see above- some wanting 'better behavior & less insults & naughty language with more editing & censorship, and some being upset that ANYTHING is censored by mods. What are the &%@#$* mods supposed to DO?
The point has been made dozens of times that MAX owns the site and wants as little censorship as possible
see this thread from 3 years ago!

a quote from it from Max!
"We don't want to delete or ban anything and the ONLY reason we do is because of (collective)YOU.

Our mistake, our mistake, we let the squeaky wheel get the grease for too long and now we have dozens of spoiled brats on our hands.

Moderating is work. It takes hours and hours a day. I will not run a site that keeps moderators busy with circular logic, pedantic idiocy and political disputes in which it's obvious at least one of the participants doesn't actually care about the ideology and is just going along for shits and giggles.

We're people. And you're fucking with us, and you're wasting our time when we've already offered it to you in service of Folk Music."
----------------------------------
He appointed a few people to TRY to keep the nonsense down to a dull roar in order to follow the spirit of that post. Is that so hard to comprehend? If YOUR debates go beyond Max's rules (and the mods' best interpretation of those rules, be prepared for notice, remarks, or even moderation of them!

I will tell you clearly that the growing imbalance in posts from the UK & US is partly because of what SRS mentions... that some from the US just give up in the face of the tone of many post from a few UL members. Of course there are other factors... one of the main being Facebook. I can name a dozen former US regulars that are on FB... for whatever reason.. but a couple have told me directly that the signal-to-noise ratio is too bad here. (and, on FB, it is MUCH easier to ignore & not see those who offend you.)


Ok..........much too long, but I don't seem to be able to condense a serious issue into a bumper-sticker remark. If you read it and want to comment--please think & digest it for a bit instead of 'instant reply'..............

whew!

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Silas
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:43 PM

I had no wish to get into a 'I've been here longer than you' argument as it is not relavent. I was simply pointing out that I am not a new member here and have been round the block a few times.

You must agree that the remarks made by SRS are not helpful. There are more sites that I know of that have been ruined by poor or inappropriate moderation than have been ruined by bolshie posters.

We are all human and we all say things that on reflection we wish we hadn't. Mudcat does not have the luxury of an edit or delete button so what we say is there forever. The normal protocol when a person has cocked up big time (as I firmly believe has happened here) is to apologise with a little grace and humility.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:02 PM

"You must agree that the remarks made by SRS are not helpful".
Sorry, but I do not agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Silas
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:06 PM

Just as well I wasn't asking you then.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:15 PM

Ok, my errrmmm...'constructive feedack':

Obvious cases of bad modding should be dealt with,
not tolerated or ignored, but dealt with quietly behind the scenes by the peer group of other mods.

This should entail a 'stern' talking to,
and a period of continued monitoring of habitually 'problematic' mods.

I see no value in forced resignations, or mods being sacked
except in most extreme circumstances -
[ how extreme ? - I dunno; manslaughter, weapons of mass destruction - that kinda extreme ???]

Dismissals from office can result in power vacuums,
and we never know potentially how much worse the next occupier of the job might be.

Yeah, I'm sure we Brits, and you yanks, both value fair minded modding and long term social stability.

==============================================

On the subject of nationalism / xenophobia - nope not me, never.
I was one of the generation of 1970s teenagers / 1980s students who grew up with
punk rock, "Rock against Racism" "Anti N@zi league", 2 tone ska, Womad,
and left wing Polytechnic degree courses...

However, having said that, I have just enjoyed a very traditional British fish and chip supper and a steaming hot mug of tea.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Silas
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:29 PM

Well, I have just indulged in far too many american ring dohnuts! Oh dear - I hope mrs silas doesn't see this!

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: olddude
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 05:01 PM

All she was trying to say is shit slinging threads are not appreciated by the vast majority of catters. I agree I do not visit often or post as much as I once did. Some old catters have vanished because of them

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 05:09 PM

""Some old catters have vanished because of them""

Well, even some of the "old fellers" can do a pretty good job at sling shit also, olddude, (you not included, of course) It is an ageless talent, if you can call it that.
Lol

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 05:52 PM

People may not realize that what they do here has turned other people off, to the point where they leave. They may, in fact, not care, because they think they have a right. Maybe they do, but that doesn't mean what they do or say doesn't affect anyone else.

What bothers me is not that we seem to have become an arena for a small number of assholes. It's that a larger number of kind and knowledgeable people have left. I also remember "in da olden times" when people would gather in threads, or in HearMe, and the people would be from the US: New Hampshire, Wyoming, California, the UK: London, Hull, Norfolk, from Ireland and Scotland, Canada, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, China, Japan, Poland, and probably other places I can't remember.

The point is, people can join in that culture of shit-slinging, they can continue to post and ignore it, or they can decide it's not worth the bother and leave... or at least not post anymore. It's not just the addition of the negative that makes Mudcat less, it's the loss of positives.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 06:06 PM

Bill, I am surprised at your splitting things along nationalist lines: I remember us agreeing on meeting that (in some cases?) folkies of different nationalities had more in common with each other than with many of their own compatriots...

I totally agree with olddude that shit slinging threads are not appreciated by the vast majority of catters... (and that)Some old catters have vanished because of them.

In my experience there are at least as many posts here that are offensive to those of us of a gentler disposition made by non-UK posters as those from these islands, and I still can't see what earthly good comes of labelling them by nationality.
Perhaps you can tell me?

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 06:43 PM

Noreen... interpretations are awkward. I didn't feel *I* was splitting anything. I felt the splits existed.. at least in the areas of disagreements... and I was merely noticing them. (I have on several occasions tried to suggest that the "America bashing" threads that start on certain topics are not only not helpful, but are usually not accurate as generalizations.)

Yes, there ARE many happy, wonderful commonalities among people of different cultures... and they are to be nurtured & appreciated.


"at least as many posts here that are offensive.....made by non-UK posters as those from these islands"
I would never have said what I said if it was not what I observed.
(I plow thru most of the threads on divisive topics, whether I post to all of them or not. I am quite aware of several US posters who in the past have caused me to shake my head sadly. I don't keep a tally sheet, I just see a difference in both tone & quantity.)

re:Perhaps you can tell me? I could.. perhaps... clarify what & why referring to the cultural differences seems relevant, but not in one or two paragraphs..... and I have enough trouble even saying this much.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Charmion
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 07:03 PM

As a Canadian who now lurks more than she posts, I feel moved to point out that the moderators ARE downtrodden, not least by whining posters who seem to think their every keystroke is delivered by divine right.

Mudcat is a privileged platform invented and developed by an American and moderated almost entirely (if not entirely entirely) by Americans. That makes it "at heart" American.

BillD's points are right on the money, as far as I can see. Claimed ideals aside, actual behaviour patterns are clear: British posters are very active, but also very aggressive by North American standards.

Sitting here in Ottawa, I frequently feel like telling a fair few of my overseas cousins to pleeeze take it outside.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 07:10 PM

"All she was trying to say is shit slinging threads are not appreciated by the vast majority of catters"


No one in their right mind would disagree with that..

Curious thing is though, the Cliff Richard thread, which triggered all this protest, wasn't/isn't one of 'em ???
For the most part it's pretty mild and fairly well behaved.

Which makes SRS's cranky outburst in that thread all the more perplexing ?

If she was personaly affronted by a lengthy, quickly deleted, errrmm.. quite astute critique
from one of the UK contingents more notable 'eccentrics';
that was not good enough reason for her to 'go off on one' at the rest of us.

Thus precipitating this present thread.

I'm not offended by her 'outrageous' remarks in this instance.
But I have been concerned for some time about her aparent underlying supercillious dismissive attitude,
and over itchy delete trigger finger
[if she is indeed 'that' mod, as reasonable conjecture may indicate].

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 07:11 PM

Could we stop pointing fingers? Blame doesn't make anything better, an unless people are terminally stupid, they'll figure out they could have done better. I usually do, but there's less of a chance I'll be inspired to push back if someone doesn't push me in the first place. Sometimes, a PM from a friend works better than any amount of public complaining.

The worst fundamental problem is that people pay attention to stuff that bothers them, and let what they love slide by, seemingly unnoticed.

Yes, the UK and US have some huge differences in what we consider acceptable. It gets really bad when we expect other people see things OUR way, but it's also bad when you try to explain things to them, and they insist they're right and you're wrong. OK, so they don't agree--are they at least capable of understanding? Of trying to? It's Babylon 5, and the rules are those of Mudcat, and of Max, the Straczynski of this particular diplomatic outpost. They aren't your (a generic "you") rules, no matter how right you think you are, and they aren't my rules, no matter how right I actually am.

It does get frustrating, but about what I said when I first started this: when someone feels like they're being pushed, they will push back. They'll assume the default position they're being manipulated into taking, because most of us can't realize we're being pushed while it's happening.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 07:21 PM

Yeah, ok, point taken - I'll leave it Jeri.

Beside I've got "Fast and Furious 6" on pause.

That lovable team of American misfits have just destroyed London.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Silas
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 07:30 PM

I think all that needs to be said has been said - let it sleep now and perhaps we have all learned something if not about each other, then about ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 07:31 PM

There is a faction - a small percentage - of the UK crowd who fly off the handle at the drop of a hat...the most conspicuous set of junk yard dogs clearly comes from the UK.

Name names. All of them please. You must have a hit list, going from this post. Us junk yard dogs don't mind, honest. What are you bloody like!

And I've said it before and I'll say it again. Great musicians do not leave this site because of what they read below the line. No-one has to go below the line. If you don't like what's below the line, and if you have at least half a brain, you don't come below the line. On the whole, the above-the-line stuff here would never make anyone leave in disgust. People stop posting on forums because they have moved on, because they're bored, because the content has strayed away from their own changing interests. There was never a golden age of toujours la politesse on this or on any other board.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: ranger1
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 08:36 PM

Steve Shaw, I DO have more than half a brain, thank you, and many of the below the line threads used to be fun and amusing. And many of the people who used to post in those threads (and those above the line) HAVE moved on due to the large number of jerks that now seem to inhabit this place and make things miserable for everyone. They don't start threads telling everyone that they're leaving because someone pissed in their cornflakes, they just leave quietly.

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 09:45 PM

Dang - Tell me it's not too late to lay claim to the popcorn concession on this thread?

With or without butter. What'll you have?

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: bbc
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 10:12 PM

I am coming, late, into this discussion, but I'd like to comment. I joined Mudcat near the beginning. It was my first experience, communicating over the Internet. I felt that Mudcat's primary strength *was* that it was international! I found it truly delightful, getting to know folks from different countries & cultures. Even learning that Mother's Day is celebrated at different times in the US & UK or being reminded that the seasons are opposite between the US & Australia broadened & enriched my experience. I thought the Internet was an amazing vehicle for bringing people together. That's why it hurts me when folks bog down in such petty discussions. Feel the joy, folks, & get on with life!

Best to all,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 10:25 PM

Steve Shaw: There was never a golden age of toujours la politesse on this or on any other board.

Perhaps not, but when I first came here, the default value (barring an infinitesimally small number of odd-bods) was not just politeness but open-heartedness to a degree I had never seen outside immediate family and friends.
Not only kindness and openness on here, but extending into the real world, where (when I'd not been on here long) a couple of catters invited anyone else on here to their barbecue at a (UK!) festival.
It was assumed that just because you were on here you were the right sort of person and were welcome. This was the origin of numerous Gatherings since which have always as far as I know, carried on that same tradition, as the nastiness and mudslinging doesn't seem to carry over into meeting in person- (further scope for discussion there).

Subject: RE: BS: at heart an american site?
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 10:25 PM

Just a couple of quotes from the early days exemplifying how we regarded this wonderful place in those days, as I don't think you were around then, Steve:

From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 99 - 02:04 PM
...We tend to think of the 'Cat as a little village and it is populated with all types of folks...but as you will find, we may not always agree, but the disagreements are based on knowledgable, informed opinion. We have a stellar cast of players here and in general you will find love, humor, and humanity in every thread. If you have any questions, please ask.....
Spaw

From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 99 - 08:06 PM
...Anyway, please do not hesitate to ask questions, int he threads, or in a personal message to one of us. Most of us are happy to oblige. And, don't worry about protocol because there isn't any! Have fun, share your knowledge, and join in 'cause this place if full of caring, brilliant, witty, knowledgable, and loving phoakies (my spelling). The best thing about the Mudcat is we are all free to be ourselves with respect and validation.

katlaughing

I'd like to pick out "knowledgable, informed opinion" and "respect and validation".

Nothing about nationality.