USA, Black Lives Lost in Police Actions

Subject: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:01 PM

Today the grand jury declined to indict the white cop who shot John Crawford III in Beavercreek, Ohio's WalMart around the same week Michael Brown was gunned down in Missouri. Crawford was on his cell phone with his wife who had just given birth to their 2nd child when shots were fired. His father was with her seeing his grandbabies and they heard his last gasps together.

Tears. Lots of them. Some inside info later.... I'm in the town where that indictment failed to be brought.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:05 PM

:(:( Thanks for informing us...

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:29 PM

Your point is what?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 04:34 PM

That another unarmed black man was shot by a cop. Perhaps you think this is a trivial matter, Lighter?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 07:29 PM

Hey, c'mon - the U.S.of A. - "greatest country in the world" - can't possibly have a racist component, can it???

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: michaelr
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:02 PM

The fuckers are out of control. With all the national attention the Ferguson murder and its aftermath received, you'd think they'd be a bit more circumspect, at least for a little while.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 09:13 PM

Here's where the profiling started:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/ohio-black-man-killed-by-police-walmart-doubts-cast-witnesss-account

Folkies used to protest this sh#t, not shoot the messenger.

Remember?

Black life matters. That's the point.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Sep 14 - 11:38 PM

I suspect there are some archetypes to expose in this situation. Paging Dr. Jung.

Not all cops are bad, but the bad ones make it really horrid for everyone else. Ego, power, insecurity, maintaining control, thinking they can get away with it.

SRS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 03:06 AM

Trouble is, Stilly, you can't tell which are which. They won't kick out the rotten apples, which taints even the good ones, because it's a case of us-and-them. We have the same problem in the UK, but we are firing them: for example, the Police Commissioner for South Yorkshire, for past misdemeanours covering up massive child abuse.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 03:56 AM

I am sure that US police-caused deaths are disproportionately of Afrikan-Americans and other BMEs. But a major driver is the media-promoted "Robocop" mentality that real men dominate and bully others (for example Danielle Watts), shoot first and shoot to kill.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 04:06 AM

Here's the link Wysiwyg gives above.
It seems to raise more questions than it answers.
The witness (Ritchie) seems to have seen the video CCTV footage & tailored his testimony accordingly, and this is "wrong".
The victim's father also seems to have watched the footage, but there is no suggestion that this is "wrong".
Crawford's father and attorneys said that the footage showed the 22-year-old walking from one aisle to the next with the BB rifle at his side and in his left hand, pointed at the floor except for one notable movement. Why remove it from the original aisle? surely you can inspect it in situ and replace it on the shelf, either to leave it, or to pick one which is still boxed if you want to make a purchase.

I have to wonder what would have happened if it had been a white man who'd been in this position:
1, He wouldn't have been shot because the police are racist & don't shoot white men?
2, He would have responded to the police challenge (which they claim they made) and put the gun down?
3, He would have been shot, but there would have been no media frenzy because "White man shot by cop" is not newsworthy?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 06:48 AM

Isn't racist killing a federal crime?

If not why not?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 07:42 AM

Blacks shot by cops are the lynchings of today in the USA. My two best black friends HAVE BOTH both shot, one fatally.

I once had a boss that was cut from the DC police department only after killing 3 black youths. His recounting of the fatal shooting incidents were demeaning and degrading to his victims. He laughed at the funny sounds two of the youths made when then were shoot while hiding under an automobile.

The ex cop cleverly worded his account of the killings, all except one time...

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 07:47 AM

"Isn't racist killing a federal crime?"

Crimes of most types are a State responsibility to prosecute. The races of the people involved are often coincidental to the fact of the crime itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime_laws_in_the_United_States

That link deals with hate crimes.

http://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_a_federal_and_a_state_crime

An easier read than many sites on the net.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 09:35 AM

Civil Rights and hate crimes come under federal jurisdiction, and I think it isn't just prosecutors deciding - grand juries are involved in this. Determining the type of crime (along a sliding scale from simple self-defense up to hate crime) for a lot of people makes prosecuting these shootings difficult.

SRS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 10:10 AM

So it looks like the Feds would have the law on their side if they had the guts to go after killers like this.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 11:03 AM

Hate crimes and what that means in terms of law and jurisdiction

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes/overview

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 12:21 PM

In the UK, each and every police shooting is automatically investigated by the Federal-level IPCC, which is pretty close to a Grand Jury. There have been doubts about its neutrality (I worked for someone who went on to head it, and a less objective person I would find hard to imagine), but these days they have become more objective, albeit still impossibly lethargic.
The robocop mentality is caused by two vectors, Procedure and incompetence. This reduces the Police to the kind of befehl-ist-befehl (Orders is Orders) mentality which caused no end of trouble in WWII, the military have long outgrown it by requiring their people to know the Law and apply it.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: pdq
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 12:31 PM

...news article about this incident:


"BEAVERCREEK, Ohio - The gun held by a 22-year-old man who was shot dead Tuesday night at a southwest Ohio Walmart was just a realistic-looking toy, a law enforcement source told CBS affiliate WHIO.

Police in the Dayton suburb of Beavercreek fatally shot John Crawford for allegedly waving what appeared to be a rifle at customers in the store. The station reports the "weapon" may only have been some type of BB or pellet gun that Crawford got and opened in the Walmart.

April and Ronald Ritchie, of Riverside, told WHIO that they were in the hardware department Tuesday around 8:20 p.m. when they saw a man walking the aisles carrying what they thought was a real gun, pointing it toward the sky. The couple called 911.

The couple said they followed Crawford at a safe distance. "Anytime I saw people walking his way, I would get their attention," April Ritchie said. She said the man was cradling a cellphone between his left ear and shoulder while he messed with the rifle.

"He just kept messing with it and I heard a clicking," April Ritchie said.

Ronald Ritchie said Crawford "was just waving [the gun] at children and people...I couldn't hear anything that he was saying. I'm thinking that he is either going to rob the place or he's there to shoot somebody.

"He didn't really want to be looked at and when people did look at him, he was pointing the gun at them. He was pointing at people. Children walking by," Ronald Ritchie said.

The station reports that police arrived and told Crawford to put the weapon down. The Ritchies said two shots were fired, knocking the suspect backward. When Crawford reportedly tried to get up, he was tackled by an officer who then handcuffed him and turned him on his back.

The Montgomery County coroner's office confirmed that Crawford died at the hospital as a result of the gunshots fired by police.

According to WHIO, 37-year-old Angela D. Williams was at the store at the time and collapsed while running away from the situation. She was taken to the hospital and pronounced dead. The coroner's office reported that Williams had a medical condition which was the cause of her death. The woman's coworkers told the station she was to be married on Saturday"

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 12:35 PM

Our political approach to guns and the racism which the white male community aims on the president has unfortunately contributed greatly to police willingness to shoot black men when no reason exists. This reflects the stance of the NRA on guns, the Tea Party's racist invective towrds the president, and the militrization of the police wiith no community control over those whomare supposed to protect and serve. A racist militaristic white male gun culture is the problem.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 01:10 PM

Thanks for the summary, pdq. I found the same in reports I read.

If I had been the cop and the man did not drop the gun, I would have fired too.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 01:15 PM

Of course you would, Q - and you'd have been just as wrong as the cop was.

And PeeDee- what point, exactly, are you trying to make with this particular article (one of many, all differing in particulars) and the "eyewitness testimony" of the Ritchies.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 01:25 PM

To protect the public, there is no alternative.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 01:35 PM

You, bet, Q - protect the public from a man with an unloaded BB gun. Probably should pin a medal on both you & the murdering SOB. Or maube the Nathan Bedford Forrest Achievement Award.

Nothing scares white folks in the U.S. (and Canada?) as shitless as 'Niggas With Guns'.

That's the "post-racial society" we're liing in. Right back to the last quarter of the 19th century.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 01:41 PM

Would have shot the man with the weapon (you walk up and identify the presumed weapon!), white, black or polka-dot.

Nothing scares folks like a shithead waving a gun.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 02:21 PM

I take it Q wants it to be open season on anybody in Ohio walking around with a gun (or toy version thereof)?

Could be fun given their open carry law. No shortage of targets. Just go to any Walmart and wait for somebody to buy one off the shelves.

Going beyond the US situation, this article is pretty good:

Yiannis Baboulias of Al Jazeera on Robocop policing

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 02:30 PM

And here is another: -

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/25/1332260/-Dash-Cam-video-of-South-Carolina-Trooper-Sean-Groubert-shooting-Levar-Jones-an-unarmed-black-man?detail=email

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 02:53 PM

Nothing scares folks like a shithead waving a gun.

No, Q - nothing scares folks like persons like yourself condoning an unnecessary murder and trying to parley it into a positive good.

Come to think of it, that was the tack of the slave-holders of the Southern U.S. - claiming SLAVERY as a positive good.......

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 03:50 PM

Oh, yes-

Down in de cornfield
hear dat mournful sound
All de darkies am a'weeping
Massa's in de cold, cold ground.

Which has bugger-all to do with the police acting in the public interest.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 05:08 PM

Another man done gone (lyrics in the trad)

And I can't believe the lyrics to There's Anger in the Land, with the phrase There's been another lynchin', aren't in the trad, I shall Add them forthwith and then come back and make the blicky.

Odd - the only lyrics I can find online are PP&M and skip the verse with the line about lynching! O horror of clean internet! Luckily I remember the verse!

Sorry for the thread creep.

I was thinking Has nothing changed? but something has; unfortunately it doesn't seem to be the total amount of racism running around.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 05:20 PM

Which has bugger-all to do with the police acting in the public interest.

'Cept that "the police acting in the public interest" has bugger-all to do with the case in point.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 05:50 PM

Witnesses saw thaf he was so focused on his fone call that he had no idea he was being told to drop a gun-- BECAUSE HE WASN'T HOLDING A GUN. As he fell he was screaming, "It's not real!" That was when he realized police meant HIM. He was not pointingbit at anyone when the officer started with a kill shot instead of a disabling shot. Their 911 info was wrong and Ritchie has already admitted this and changed his story-- he's wherecthe profiling started.

This neck of the woods is both Old South and New South. It was and is hotly-contested Klan and Abolition/Equality territory. Right under the surface, within an economically-challenged are whose major employers have closed or moved right vdfore tge housibg bubble burst. So-- it can get tense, here, apparently fatally and quicker than the speed of thought.

~S~

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 06:51 PM

It is appalling indeed.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 06:52 PM

Old South - New South ..... The "New South" being the Klan in business suits instead of hoods.

Rock on.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 08:34 PM

Beavercreek is an affluent (median family income about $89,000) suburb of Dayton, Ohio. The Black population is small, about 2.5 percent. Its demographics are far removed from Ferguson.
Money Magazine rated it among the 100 best places to live in the U. S.

It is typical of middle class America, far removed from areas with Klan influence.
The big source of jobs is Wright-Patterson.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 14 - 09:01 PM

Googling "kkk dayton ohio" immediately contradicts that.

Ohio had a larger number of KKK members than any other state. And not all Klan activity in Ohio was in the distant past.

Try a Google image search for "kkk dayton ohio photo" too. Like this:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/96/65/14/966514736a9128a4fc6e9286cde573be.jpg

The recent stuff is far too repulsive for me to want to provide links to it, but it's easy to find.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 10:51 AM

Ah jeez, Q - another ooops. Klan's apparently alive and well.

Money Magazine rated it among the 100 best places to live in the U. S.

Did Money Magazine query any Black folks in making that derermination, Q?

Oh and by the way - in light of the subject of this thread, posting a Black-Face Minstrel Song is in pretty poor taste. Do do you see yourself as Mr. Bones, or Mr. Interlocutor?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:06 PM

Trying to project 1920s KKK membership into present day Ohio, as Mr. Campin attempts, is nonsense.

Following WW1, Klan membership was at an all-time high in the U. S. and Canada, because of the backlash against immigration policies allowing southern European and Irish Catholics and the extension of rights to the Asian community. Some Protestant groups not associated with the Klan and its ilk attacked the easy access of Irish Catholics and Jews to the U. S. and Canada.

Canada had large Klan memberships in the western cities in the 1920s.
I have a photo taken in a large assembly hall in Calgary of attendance at a KKK rally. In Canada, many business men, as well as tradespeople, were Klan members at the time.
By 1928, the Klan had members in 100 communities in Saskatchewan (historians estimate 25000-50000 members. Their main target in western Canada was the Catholic immigrant, and to some extent Catholics from Quebec.

Last year, a Klan in North Carolina distributed flyers in Hillsboro, Ohio (near Cincinnati in the far south) apparently with no effect). This is the only current report of activity in Dayton that I found.

In the 1920s, the Klan made attacks on the University of Dayton, regarded by them as a center of "Catholic subversion."

I doubt if there are more than a handful of KKK members in the Dayton area.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:15 PM

Dayton, Ohio is also home to LexisNexis, you'd think all them lawyers would want a piece of this...

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:20 PM

Uh Hunh. "apparently" & similar weasel words. And you apparently missed the recent incidents thet Mr. Casmpin referred to.

You DOUBT it - but can you PROVE it? Have you any evidence to back this silly claim up other than an internet search?

Apparently not.

(PS: Dayton isn't in Alberta or Saskatchewan.)

Why not just post some more "Darkey" songs to "entertain" us?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:23 PM

And Q, since you're incapable of finding it yourself, here's some factual matter:

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map#s=OH

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 02:24 PM

Poor sentence- I was looking for current reports of the Klan in Dayton, but the only report I found was the one from Hillsboro, OH.

Back to the subject, the finding of the grand jury was that the police acted within the limits of the Police Act, seeing a perceived threat. The Police Chief and the Mayor of Beavercreek have asked the Federal Justice Department to review their actions.
No action has been taken so far by the Justice Department.

Walmart has been asked to not allow customers to handle air rifles without a salesperson being in attendance, and all guns should be behind the counter.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Sep 14 - 03:17 PM

I was looking for current reports of the Klan in Dayton, but the only report I found was the one from Hillsboro, OH.

Look harder.

Walmart has been asked to not allow customers to handle air rifles without a salesperson being in attendance

So aside from the Police over-reacting, ya think maybe MalWart might also be partly responsible for this travesty of justice, Q?

No action has been taken so far by the Justice Department.

Yet. And since the TeaPublicans have forced Holder out with a tsunami of BS, it may not take any. But it should.

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 12:09 PM

Oh??..We're deleting threads that don't pander to the =so-called' liberal spins, again....figures!!

Such open minds!

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 12:14 PM

Today the grand jury declined to indict the white cop who shot John Crawford III in Beavercreek, Ohio's WalMart around the same week Michael Brown was gunned down in Missouri. Crawford was on his cell phone with his wife who had just given birth to their 2nd child when shots were fired.

The topic is the frequent occurrence of American police officers shooting unarmed young black men.

Holder was one of the longest-serving U.S. Attorney Generals - perhaps the longest, I haven't looked it up but I think I heard that factoid this week. It is a common occurrence for the gradual departure of those in the president's cabinet and inner circle to leave office before the end of the second term. It is a political decision probably months in the planning. But I'm sure the GOP/Teaparty would love to claim credit for something they had nothing to do with if they think they can spin it during the upcoming elections.

The failure to indict is distressing, and signals that it is still open season on young black men.

SRS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 12:56 PM

SRS: "The failure to indict is distressing, and signals that it is still open season on young black men."

Hogwash!

GfS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 01:09 PM

You mean "whitewash", dontcha, GeistInsanity?

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 01:10 PM

SRS: "The failure to indict is distressing, and signals that it is still open season on young black men."

But they let this one   have a chance....but later caught up with him...those unfair, biased cops!...or ..and this one was shot just because he was black!!!..Ya' think??

Racism isn't just a one way street.....only to some!

GfS

P.S. Dearest moderator, who keeps deleting my posts, why do you NOT want people to look at both sides of an issue, and ONLY the side YOU PREFER??..Do you think all Mudcat readers are stupid???...or are you insisting that they should be??

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 02:03 PM

Guest from Sanity, your predatory posts at Mudcat are designed to disrupt discussions you don't like and to turn the attention to yourself. Get over yourself and go find something better to do.

SRS

Subject: RE: Another Black Man Shot by Cop
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Sep 14 - 02:06 PM

Walmart Security video clearly shows the youth with a rifle in his hands just before he was shot by police.
How would one tell without close inspection what kind of gun it was?
www.wksu.org/news/story/40578

I may be in the minority, but it seems to me that the only option is to shoot if the weapon is not dropped immediately.
What other options are there when the public is under possible threat?

Canada prohibits the open display of air rifles, BB-guns; both dangerous to the public.

The incident in Walmart could not happen in a Walmart in Canada where the items must be behind the counter and superintended.