BS: Conspiracy theories

Subject: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 01:46 AM

I am as convinced as it is possible to be that the Moon Landings of July 1969 occurred on the Moon and not in the Utah desert. And that Myra Hindley, the notorious Moors Murderess, died in custody, and the coffin that was buried as a consequence actually contained her body, and not bricks while she had been let out thru a side door of the prison because announcing her release would have provoked too much protest...

In short, I think the vast majority of rumours of such conspiracy theories which catch on are nonsense, not even worth a second of any intelligent person's consideration.

But, as James Thurber pointed out as a moral to one of his 'Fables For Our Time', you might as well fall flat on your face as bend over too far backwards; which is to say, in present context, that because the vast majority of conspiracy theories and rumours which catch on are rubbish, that surely doesn't mean that none of them can ever possibly be true and well founded.

There are two which I do believe in; have stated so on this forum before; and have received a certain amount of scorn & obloquy [particularly on the part of one generally agreed as rather foolish regular forum-stirrer-upper] for dong so. Namely, that the deaths of two prominent women widely regarded as trouble-makers, Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana of Wales, were both too convenient to too many influential people to have been quite as adventitiously unfortunate as they were made to appear. Nothing will convince me that they weren't both rather clumsily done away with at the behest of some to whom their continued existence constituted a serious threat.

Anyone care to comment on the phenomenology of the Conspiracy Theory; on these particular ones I mention; or on any others which may occur?

≈Michael≈

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 02:38 AM

One of the problems of the phrase 'Conspiracy Theory' is that it's something of a catchall term that can be used indiscriminately to undermine, what may indeed be perfectly rational and credible arguments about possible conspiracies. Are there conspiracies, of course there are.

Governments hide problematic truths from the people (such as how much they are being spied on for example). The police close ranks to protect themselves when people die under their watch (at a football match for example). Dossiers (about child abuse in high places for example) go 'missing.'

As for your specific examples, I don't have a clue concerning the truth of the circumstances surrounding either Lady Diana or Monroe's deaths, but do I think that those who rule us are frequently hideously shady and capable of eliminating problematic individuals - especially ones that may potentially compromise 'national security', absolutely I do. I think you'd have to be terribly naive not to think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 02:51 AM

Of course, the phrase "conspiracy theory" is a misuse of the word 'theory'. A theory is not a hunch or a guess but a scientific model, of some aspect of reality, supported by (lots of) evidence. We should really be talking about a "conspiracy hypothesis" ... but that would probably never catch on ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 02:55 AM

Good point semantically, Shim. But I think it probably best to run with the generally accepted term, even if it is a bit loosely expressed.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:01 AM

Occams razor and and get your medication reviewed.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:09 AM

I have no knowledge of either Monroe's or Diana's deaths. However, when you say: "Nothing will convince me that they weren't both rather clumsily done away with..." are you postulating that the driver was in on it? Fairly preposterous, wouldn't you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:32 AM

Ebbie -- An experienced professional driver doesn't get drunk while at work conveying distinguished passengers. He must surely have been got at.

≈M≈

Musket -- interpolations on your part, as implied in OP, are not welcome; any further that you trouble yourself to post will remain unread by me & will be resolutely ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:50 AM

I think that Marilyn was a fragile soul, who may well have been persuaded that suicide was the only way out of her torment....for political reasons. Anything is possible among the political classes, but I rather agree with Ebbie that an arranged traffic accident seems clumsy and unprofessional.

I am led to believe that "life is cheap" amongst our criminal classes.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:55 AM

I'll raise my head above the parapet and risk being caught in the crossfire of multiple Musketry 😆, by saying that I'm inclined to agree with Michael regarding the MM and Saint Diana deaths. However, I have to disagree over Myra Hindley - her 'death' was very conveniently-timed indeed, and I've always strongly suspected that she was released very quietly, with a new identity, to spend whatever she had (has?) left of her life in anonymity.

But, in all three cases, I believe it's unlikely we will ever know the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 04:40 AM

Either way, it keeps an airport bookstall industry going I suppose.

Still not nice for their family and friends to have to keep seeing or reading it, all the same. When we build them up and burn them down again, we forget they are humans with human feelings, aspirations and other humans who care for them. They tend to have children for instance. I know my Dad must have had his toes amputated so he could get nearer to the bar, but I don't want to read about it in The Daily Express.

Whilst you are on with conspiracy theories Mike, how's your newsagent? Heard from his nephew lately?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 05:02 AM

In some cases it seems almost as if they go out of their way to provoke conspiracy theory, viz;

- the death and burial of Bin Laden
- everything to do with Locherbie
- everything to do with UTA flight 772
- the removal of Gough Whitlam
- the temporary removal of Berlusconi when he tried to impede the ruin of Libya

Unfortunately we'll never know the truth as there is too much at stake for those involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 05:08 AM

And who might 'they' be?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 05:24 AM

I dare say you never know the truth when it stares at you...

Finding the truth is a wee bit different to offering alternatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 06:00 AM

Julius Caeser
Abraham Lincoln
Sir Thomas More
Salem Witchcraft
Joseph Smith and his brother, Hyrum
Bounty Mutineers
Molly Maguires
Earp Brothers and Doc Holiday - OK Corral
Oklahoma Courthouse Bombing
Twin Towers 911
Hay Market Eight
Chicago Seven
Bartolomeo Vanzetti and Nicola Sacco
Scottsboro Boys
Lindbergh baby kidnapping
Alger Hiss-Whittaker Chambers
Manson Family
Symbionese Liberation Army
McMartin Preschool
Shoot Out at Ruby Ridge
Clinton impeachment and Whitewater
Nixon resignation and Whitewater
Nuremberg
The gunpowder plot
Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette
Socrates
Paul McCartney' s death
Pearl Harbor
Munich beer hall
Shakespeare
chem trails
monkey virus
global warming
AIDS
Holocaust
L. Ron Hubbard
vaccines cause autism
water floridation
Moscow Purge 1936
Hollywood Ten
Tiananmen Square
Mary Queen of Scotts
Crucifiction of Jesus Christ

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

That should keep you twiddling for awhile When you are through we can move on to " who pushed Humpty Dumpty " Jack's involvement with candle sticks" bestiality and the piper' s son" and a hundred more".

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 06:06 AM

PLEASE close this thread before Fugitive From Sanity gets started.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 06:21 AM

And, there was a poore misguided celtic lad who put forward the catty conspiracy theory- that our very own Steve Shaw was actually a sheep in a wood thicket's clothing , and I suspect, as a youth, he would be a lamb? A Shaw being a lamb, preposterous!

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Sheep in wolf's clothing Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 06:31 AM

I can baaa-ly believe you said that!


Oops....

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 07:03 AM

Conspiracy theories, some of which could better be called crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 07:04 AM

It must have stung like sheep lightning.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 07:18 AM

Foolish conspiracy theories, like the Catholic Church hushing up mass graves of murdered children. Couldn't happen in Ireland or Canada. Just uneasy rumours for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 07:21 AM

The Bilderberg list

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 09:41 AM

Whenever I see/hear (MGM, are you listening?) a statement
that Nothing will convince me on a given subject,
I conclude from that very statement that it's from a mind not
only closed against rational discussion on that subject but
likely to adopt other, similar adamant positions. Thus
the credibility of other strong pronouncements from that
speaker/writer is made questionable.

A statement like "to convince me of such-and-such would
take extremely strong proof" would leave room for rational
discussion and allow for honesty or dignity of those who
hold contrary opinions.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Wesley S
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 09:49 AM

While most of us think of conspiracy theories - there are "true believers" that have "insider information". In my experience people rarely change sides in the matter. Most often than not the simplest answer is the correct one.

Except when the Trilateral Commission is involved. And we all know that the commission was started by Dr Moriarty.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 09:57 AM

I have a Theory about Conspiracies.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 10:12 AM

Yes, I am listening Uncle Dave. I have taken note of your stylistic preferences, but feel no particular necessity to modify my chosen modes of expression.

Thank you nevertheless for your interest.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 10:39 AM

Personally I have little time for so-called conspiracy theories, least of all for those surrounding lifestyle-deaths such as Monroe and Diana. Boring. However, there is, just occasionally, a rather too-easy willingness to cry "conspiracy theory" when one suspects the attempted covering-up of a miscarriage of justice. I've always believed this to be the case with the Lockerbie bombing. One of the first things that happened after the crash was that the scene, containing vital evidence, was violated, not just by well-meaning locals but, far more significantly, by swarms of unidentified Americans who were spiriting away that evidence. Read about it here:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n18/gareth-peirce/the-framing-of-al-megrahi

And don't get me started on the testimony of the demented shopkeeper in Malta which was such a vital part of the prosecution case. At least he was well paid by the yanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 12:00 PM

Isn't Uncle Dave perceptive today?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 02:39 PM

""Legal Showdown: Swedish Woman Claims She Is The True Daughter Of Elvis Presley, Not Lisa Marie!: In a shocking new report that will blow everyone away, the Lisa Marie Presley America has grown to know as Elvis' only daughter may not actually be who she says she is! 
A Swedish woman named Lisa Johansen, a married mother-of-four with a law degree, is claiming that she was switched at age nine "for security reasons," The National ENQUIRER is reporting. Although Presley's lawyers have blasted Johansen's, 43, claims, The ENQUIRER has reviewed exclusive photos of the woman claiming to be the King's daughter interacting with members of the Presley family.
But the legal battle that Johansen has started isn't her only one. She is also embattled in a legal dispute with the publisher of her memoir, I, Lisa Marie: The True Story of Elvis Presley's Real Daughter, after reportedly refusing a DNA test even though she allegedly received $200,000 for the tell-all. The Swedish woman claims she was born Feb. 1, 1968, to "Priscilla Ann Beaulieu and Elvis Aaron Presley." She describes her childhood as a "fairy tale with my father as the king and myself as the pampered princess," The ENQUIRER reports.""


After Elvis died, Johansen told The ENQUIRER that she remembers very little until Beaulieu allegedly whisked her away to Europe. (Conspiracy, Source: The National Enquirer, Aug 2014)

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: olddude
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM

My theory, if we keep tearing a piece of paper smaller and smaller and smaller.. A terrible explosion would eventually occur

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 04:00 PM

Come off it, Ed. Elvis ain't dead. Why, I saw him down the chippie last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 09:07 PM

Elvis ain't dead. Neither is Marilyn Monroe or Jimi Henrix or Janis Joplin or JFK. They -- along with everyone was said to have died in Vietnam, the crew of the USN Thresher and the USN Seawolf -- are cryogenically frozen in a Top Secret Base in Iceland. If the US is every really threatened they will be thawed out and be ready to go -- two nuclear subs, about six divisions of battle-trained troops, a good leader, and top-notch entertainers for the USO. John Wayne and Roy Rogers are also there.

Don't tell anyone or the Black Helicopters from the UN will come and take you off to you know where for you wouldn't know how long.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 10:20 PM

The only conspiracy theory I believe in is the one required to explain why Keith Richards is not dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 11:01 PM

BWL, it is my firm belief that ALL of the Rolling Stones have been buried - but then somebody dug them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 14 - 11:10 PM

I personally suspect (note-not 'believe') that many conspiracy theories are glommed onto because they are just more interesting than the truth.
Then... there are folks who believe almost anything that suggests 'they'... the government, the aliens, the Commies, the [insert racial/ethnic/religious group], the media...etc... are out to control everything.
(Then of course, there are those who write books 'exposing' secrets and milk the theory for years.)

I can understand the concern over some events and the possibility that some important facts are hidden, but I cannot easily understand why folks refuse to accept clear and reasonable explanations from experts and seem to prefer wild 'what-ifs' from armchair guessers. MY 'theory' is that some people just ...like?... to analyze and gossip about it all, and it keeps them busy & interested.

(trying to think of any famous conspiracy theories that were borne out... I suppose there must be a couple)

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 03:23 AM

Or put another way, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Tall tales aren't necessarily black lies. A lovely verse from The Little Pot Stove.

"Fireman Paddy works with me
On the engines frozen cold
A stranger to the truth is he
There is no lie he hasnt told.

He told us of his gold mines
And the hearts that he had won
His crazy sense of humour shone
Just like a ray of sun."

An old workmate used to claim he had proof that we never went to the moon, that microwave ovens were a gift from aliens (this being years before Men in Black used it in their script!) and that Harold Wilson was born in Moscow.

But he was harmless. Daft, yes, but harmless.

With the Internet thingy and general dumbing down of intellect judging by what I see if I'm daft enough to turn the telly on for anything other than football, Dr Who, Top Gear or Wheeler Dealers, conspiracy theories can grow legs.

That would never do. Sheffield Utd fans can't separate fact from fiction as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 04:15 AM

There was an interesting programme, on UK TV last night, about 9/11. There is, of course, a widespread conspiracy ... errr ... hypothesis that after the aircraft hit, the twin towers were destroyed in controlled explosions (for some sinister reason or other). But two engineers had independently concluded that the presence of aluminium, from the two aircraft, had not been taken into account in the reports on the atrocity. Apparently, if molten aluminium comes into contact with water it is highly explosive (it forms aluminium oxide and hydrogen). The engineers suggested that conditions within the buildings, following the crashes, could have been right to produce molten aluminium and there was plenty of water present from building services and sprinkler systems. They showed that if such explosions did occur they would have been powerful enough to bring them down the two towers. Nevertheless, their request to the US authorities to examine retained wreckage for evidence in support of their HYPOTHESIS was turned down Now that's a bit sinister!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 04:33 AM

I didn't see the programme, Shimrod, but the fact that it was on Channel 5 says a good deal...

There's a LOT of information that suggests the aluminium hypothesis is wrong. Try starting here

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 05:07 AM

Well, Guest Ed, here's a quote from your link:

"Aluminum has a melting point of 660*C, depending on the alloy, and jet fuel burns at 980*C. With the vast amount of debris from the aircraft in the north-east corner (80% of which was aluminum – about 64,000kg), it's most likely that the molten material seen flowing from the building is molten aluminium. Truthers believe however, that molten aluminium is a silvery colour, like mercury, and does not glow orange.

To debunk this one, simply run a Google image search for 'molten aluminum'. The results shows multiple images of the stuff, glowing an orange-ish colour. The search even brings up a diagram, showing the colour of aluminium at different temperatures. What's interesting is that at 980*C (the temperature at which jet fuel burns), aluminium glows light orange, just as shown in the video."

That is NOT inconsistent with the hypothesis presented by the two engineers in last night's programme!

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 05:14 AM

You're correct, Shimrod. Much to my embarrassment, I noticed that as soon as I'd posted it. My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Nov 14 - 05:22 AM

Apologies accepted, Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 09:09 AM

Having, perhaps unfortunately, spent most of my life working in the real world, it strikes me that most conspiracy theories require much more cooperation and coordination between diverse parties than you would generally be able to manage.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 09:19 AM

I agree in part, Stim, but then would be remiss not to mention the Manhattan Project.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 09:52 AM

Conspiracies theories are promulgated by a secret cabal of neuroscientists and financiers to distract people from the real problems of of the current moment. This is the "Brain$ Trust" and is headquartered in an abandoned secret US government missile silo outside of a small town in South Dakota.

I've already said too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,#
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 09:58 AM

Some people advocate that conspiracy theories are just theories because they would require too many people to know what's going on in order to make them work and remain secret. The reference to the Manhattan Project was to draw attention to this: more than 120,000 people were employed on the MP. Even Truman as VP of the US was unaware until he was sworn in as President.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 10:01 AM

Is that silo where the blueprints and working model of the 100MPG carburetor are hidden? (along with the x-rays of JFKs head, Jimmy Hoffa's remains, and Judge Crater's wallet?)

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 10:09 AM

""Jimmy Hoffa ('s) remains""

That could possibly be misconstrued, to contribute to a new internet conspiracy theory?

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 12:16 PM

Re MM:

The Kennedys did it...

http://www.idesigntimes.com/articles/5997/20130611/marilyn-monroe-bobby-kennedy-jfk-sex-tape.htm

Describing the Monroe Kennedy fight further, Otash wrote: "She was really screaming and they [Bobby Kennedy and Peter Lawford] were trying to quiet her down. She's in the bedroom and Bobby [Kennedy] gets the pillow and he muffles her on the bed to keep the neighbors from hearing." Finally, according to Otash, the Marilyn Monroe and Bobby Kennedy's fight subsided. "She finally quieted down and then he was looking to get out of there."

Although Marilyn Monroe and Bobby Kennedy's fight finally came to a close, Otash realized, in hindsight, that he had "listened to Marilyn Monroe die." Otash learned later that Marilyn Monroe was dead when Lawford requested that he remove any incriminating evidence from her house. Otash's final recordings of Monroe and the Kennedy brothers have still not been found.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 12:56 PM

Programme on the telly the other night suggesting her doc actually killed her with an injection in the heart.
Done to stop her squealing about his unethical relationship with her and the Robert Kennedy affair.
I read somewhere that a coromner said he'd only ever came across one other suicide where the body was naked and that had been in exceptional circumstances.
Whatever happened, the offish story smells of fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Musket
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 01:03 PM

I heard the shape changing lizards killed her for hogging the limelight.

Mind you, mock ye not... Every conspiracy theory mentioned in this thread has the one vital ingredient needed..

Dozy buggers.

👽👽👽💤

Subject: RE: BS: Conspiracy theories
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Nov 14 - 01:19 PM

Bill D., all of Nostradamus's REAL predictions are there as well.