Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 08:54 AM

... not to mention Richmond or Kew ...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 08:51 AM

"Well now, you have obviously not visited the leafy areas of South Croydon!!!"
Or Dulwich ...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 07:38 AM

Not to mention social workers trying to sound like trawler fishermen....

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 07:31 AM

If you take "posh" to mean the same as snobbish , then no. Snobs can't really sing folk because they don't really want to sound like other folk do. But a genuine plummy accent is better than some of the fake demotic ones you used to hear.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:36 AM

"There is nobody south of the river who is posh :-) "
';;';'

Well now, you have obviously not visited the leafy areas of South Croydon!!!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:14 AM

"There is nobody south of the river who is posh :-) "
';;';'

Yes there is -- in Blackheath.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 06:02 AM

No? Neither can chavs, diddycoys, tit trousers or those layabouts on street corners pretending to raise money for Socialist Workers Party etc etc.

Hangings too good for 'em dontcha know?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 05:12 AM

Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs? Simple answer NO
But Ewan McColl would have loved you

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 23 Nov 14 - 04:41 AM

Try singing Ballad of Jamie Foyers without affecting a Scottish accent....

Presumably, one expects one to put a ferret down one's trousers if one is to sing The Sheffield Grinder? Might as well go the whole hog and black up to sing Swannee River..

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 09:46 PM

Ah Joe, She thinks she's an alto...

Then she must be a singer, so all of us Mudcatters will love her anyway.

And Bonzo3legs, it is not sarf it is sa'af. There is nobody south of the river who is posh :-)

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 09:42 PM

oh god yes! sunday morning in bed. switch on the radio and the 'holy voices' start.

why DO they do that........
its enough to put you off going to heaven.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Betsy
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:11 PM

Al you're about right...
I love the perfect diction of Barbara Dickson , Maddy Prior and their beautiful voices. I hope we can all understand Tim Hart , Christy Moore Andy Irvine, Jez Lowe and countless others , but it never occurred to me to consider whether they were posh or not. Jeremy Taylor taught at a public school (Possibly Eton) but Posh ? - I'm not sure.
Yes they sing in understandable English , - but Posh ?
Kathleen Ferrier was a truly wonderful singer - not posh , but exposing Folksong in a the only way which was agreeable in period she was living.
The questioner is quiet right, in that, when a posh voice sings "Weel may the Keel row" "Blaydon races" or some such I find it a bit off-putting - I d much prefer them to be sang in natural Geordie voice
but people with posh voices, are tying their best to sing OUR songs so
I suppose my answer to the thread has got to be "Yes they can" but you may need to give them an awful lot of leeway .
Posh voices in ordinary Church services ( especially at Christmas on radio or TV ) has a similar effect on me as I suspect, does the posh people singing Folksong ....on the questioner

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Brian Grayson
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 07:47 PM

... and while we're on the subject of Chesterton:

Up my lads and lift the ledgers,
Sleep and ease are o'er.
Hear the Stars of Morning shouting:
'Two and Two are four.'
Though the creeds and realms are reeling,
Though the sophists roar,
Though we weep and pawn our watches,
Two and Two are Four.

and, for times of financial crisis and courage –

There's a run upon the Bank –
Stand away!
For the Manager's a crank and the Secretary drank,
And the Upper Tooting Bank
Turns to bay!

Stand close: there is a run
On the Bank.
Of our ship, our royal one, let the ringing
Legend run,
That she fired with every gun
Ere she sank.

…and, the specimen verse of the Post-Office Hymn ran thus:

O'er London our letters are shaken like snow,
Our wires o'er the world like thunderbolts go.
The news that may marry a maiden in Sark,
Or kill an old lady in Finsbury Park.

Chorus (with a swing of joy and energy):
Or kill an old lady in Finsbury Park.

I have a personal aversion to the 'Folk Songs with Pianoforte' style of singing, pear-shaped tones etc., but some like them, and you don't have to listen!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:18 PM

i suppose the real question is, can anyone perform folk songs in a way that is universally acceptable?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:33 PM

RB ? He MUST be posh because he doesn't like "plebs" like me going to Garden Parties at Buckingham Palace ,( or Buck House , as he correctly puts it )even if one did grow up living in Cowdray House near Midhurst ( which one did ,ectually ).

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 01:11 PM

2. Richard Bridge

😎

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:49 PM

hmmm... posh school folkies... mudcatters enjoy compiling lists...

1] Nick Drake...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:41 PM

Ah ha, I detect Genesis!!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:32 PM

Well... the extensive premium quality facilities and resources of public school music education classes,
and family social and business networks,
certainly give posh people a distinct advantage
over musically inclined kids from state schools....



[flashback to the late 1970s.. that bunch of young Millfield boys..
who were fans of our band... knicked all our best riffs..
then recorded at a top studio beacause one of their dad's was mates with Richard Branson...

..and to think, we only let them hang out with us cuz we fancied their older sisters...]

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 12:13 PM

Posh around Croydon certainly means that one speaks properly - not the hideous sarf London letter dropping cackle!!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 11:35 AM

Hoot - Partridge "distrusted" the "portside out, starboard home" idea for "Posh" and gives other suggestions. He also comments on the Romani "posh" as in "half" (posh-horri = halfpenny and posh-koorona = half-crown).
Achmelvich - I go along with your idea that financial success can affect creativity, though not in all cases, and here I am thinking especially of Picasso. He was certainly well-off when he created "Guernica", one of the greatest paintings ever made.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,LadyDiamond
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 11:20 AM

I'm reading with great interest! Definitely did not post for the fun of stirring things up and did not think it was a stupid question (Bonzo3legs, how charming you are). I'm really pleased that most people are saying great stuff about singing for the hell of singing. In the places I sing, I've often wondered if being whatever 'authentic' means is more important than being there at all but it doesn't seem to be the case for you lot. Good on you!

LD

PS: Achmelvich I think your comment about rich people not being as good at creating art and being better at buying and selling is fascinating. I don't agree, but it's made me think interesting thoughts so thanks!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 10:29 AM

Lady Diamond (OP) where have you gone?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:58 AM

Thinking Whitby, very true about the pirates!
vernacular songs like Dance to you Daddy sound wrong sung in an operatic voice. Sally gsrdens should work having been written by Yeats but does not sound riht inaa posh voice either. Same problem with Burns songs, and I much preferred the interpretations by that woman from afairground Attraction.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Lady Strumpet
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:48 AM

One finds most folk occasions attended by either retired civil servants or out of work pirates

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: mayomick
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 08:06 AM

Nina and Frederick ? Which goes to show, "can't sing folk 'til thou art folk", as they (didn't) used to say in Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 07:16 AM

Baron Frederick Van Pallandt and wife Nina from Denmark had folksy hits with "Listen to The Ocean" and "Sipping Cider Through A Straw " in Britain in the 60s ; I guess that they were "posh" but Jimmy Miller ( McColl ) NEVER !!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:46 AM

Glad you thought it irrational. The only people who shouldn't be allowed to enjoy music are those who think others shouldn't be allowed to enjoy it.

Even then, they can tap their feet discretely...

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:17 AM

musket - no, i'm not confused. i may be irrational and probably am unfair but.....i saw gillian welch and dave rawlings a couple of years ago in manchester - one of the best gigs i ever saw. then a few days later i read about cameron and his wife going to the london gig. irrespective of whether this was for political or photo-op type purposes or whether they have a genuine liking for the music, it just made me feel a bit sick. childish too, nae doubt but we can all be irrational at times and let personal feelings for repulsive individuals over-ride our otherwise, easy going and tolerant nature.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 06:00 AM

This might help. It applies to the Blues but there's a folkie parallel in there ;-)

HOW TO PLAY AND SING THE BLUES

1. Most Blues begin with: "Woke up this morning..."

2. "I got a good woman" is a bad way to begin the Blues unless you stick
something nasty in the next line like "I got a good woman with the
meanest face in town."

3. The Blues is simple. After you get the first line right, repeat it.
Then find something that rhymes, sort of: "Got a good woman with the meanest
face in town. Yes, I got a good woman with the meanest face in town. Got
teeth like alligator, and she weigh 500 pound."

4. The Blues is not about choice. You stuck in a ditch, you stuck in a
ditch. There ain't no way out.

5. Blues cars: Chevys, Fords, Cadillacs and broken-down trucks. Blues
don't travel in Volvos, BMWs, or SUVs. Most Blues transportation is a
Greyhound bus or a southbound train. Jet aircraft and state-sponsored motor
pools
ain't even in the running. Walkin' plays a major part in the blues
lifestyle. So does fixin' to die.

6. Teenagers can't sing the Blues. They ain't fixin' to die yet. Adults
sing the Blues. In Blues, "adulthood" means being old enough to get the
electric chair if you shoot a man in Memphis.

7. Blues can take place in New York City but not in Hawaii or anyplace
in Canada. Hard times in Minneapolis or Seattle is probably just clinical
depression. Chicago, St. Louis, and Kansas City are still great places
to have the Blues. You cannot have the blues anyplace that don't get rain.

8. A man with male pattern baldness ain't the Blues. A woman with male
pattern baldness is. Breaking your leg 'cause you were skiing is not the
blues. Breaking your leg 'cause a alligator be chomping on it is.

9. You can't have no Blues in a office or a shopping mall. The lighting
is wrong. Go out to the parking lot or sit by the dumpster.

10. Good places for the Blues:
a. highway
b. jailhouse
c. empty bed
d. bottom of a whiskey glass

Bad places for the Blues:
a. Nordstrom's
b. gallery openings
c. Ivy League colleges
d. golf courses

11. No one will believe it's the Blues if you wear a suit, 'less you
happen to be an old ethnic person, and you slept in it.

12. Do you have the right to sing the Blues?

Yes, if:
a. you older than dirt
b. you blind
c. you shot a man in Memphis
d. you can't be satisfied

No, if:
a. you have all your teeth
b. you were once blind but now can see
c. the man in Memphis lived
d. you have a 401K or trust fund

13. Blues is not a matter of color. It's a matter of bad luck. Tiger Woods
cannot sing the blues. Sonny Liston could. Ugly white people also got a
leg up on the blues.

14. If you ask for water and your darlin' give you gasoline, it's the Blues.
Other acceptable Blues beverages are:
a. cheap wine
b. whiskey or bourbon
c. muddy water
d. nasty black coffee

The following are NOT Blues beverages:
a. Perrier
b. Chardonnay
c. Snapple
d. Slim Fast

15. If death occurs in a cheap motel or a shotgun shack, it's a Blues
death. Stabbed in the back by a jealous lover is another Blues way to die.
So
are the electric chair, substance abuse and dying lonely on a broken-down
cot.
You can't have a Blues death if you die during a tennis match or while
getting liposuction.

16. Some Blues names for women:
a. Sadie
b. Big Mama
c. Bessie
d. Fat River Dumpling

17. Some Blues names for men:
a. Joe
b. Willie
c. Little Willie
d. Big Willie

18. Persons with names like Amber, Jennifer, Tiffany, Debbie, and
Heather can't sing the Blues no matter how many men they shoot in Memphis.

19. Make your own Blues name Starter Kit:
a. name of physical infirmity (Blind, Cripple, Lame, etc.)
b. first name (see above) plus name of fruit (Lemon, Lime, etc..)
c. last name of President (Jefferson, Johnson, Fillmore, etc.)
Examples: Blind Lime Jefferson, Jackleg Lemon Johnson.

20. No matter how tragic your life, if you own a computer you cannot sing
the blues

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:48 AM

Kathleen Ferrier had a 'posh'sounding singing voice but was not really 'posh' - daughter of a village schoolmaster, left school at 14 to work on a GPO switchboard, married a local bank branch manager (not a wealthy city banker) - she had a wonderful voice but her feet were firmly on the ground.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:29 AM

Kathleen Ferrier could.
And bawdy songs.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:22 AM

Anyone can sing anything they want to, but Peter Pears sounded absurd singing folk songs.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 22 Nov 14 - 03:15 AM

With reference to the YouTube clip mentioned above. I am pretty certain that the fiddle-player is not Maud Karpeles. However, one of the dancers does resemble a youthful Douglas Kennedy. So it might be that the fiddler is his wife, who was Maud's sister.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 11:01 PM

Oh, I love polkas! So, now the question is, "Can Posh People Perform Polish Polkas Properly?"

OK, sorry. I'll leave voluntarily....

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 11:01 PM

As far as I know, Pete Seeger had a pretty posh upbringing and went to a boarding school in Connecticut, so you can just keep singing!

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 10:45 PM

I believe this will answer your question, Joe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlIIQ_gA_jA

The answer is yes.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 10:02 PM

I skipped a few letters. I thought the thread title was, "Can Polish People Sing Folk Songs?" Being married to a Polish maiden, I have to say I'm undecided as of now. She thinks she's an alto, but she's not sure yet....

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 03:25 PM

I don't know. Izal is pretty good for writing apologies on.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 03:10 PM

... and sheet music was probably even worse than Izal...???

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 02:59 PM

Obviously the early collectors of folk music thought so. They published sheet music.
How many 'folk' can read that?
Or afford to buy it.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Rich A
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 02:50 PM

I sing folk songs and I get out of the bath to have a shit, I must be posh! Am I still allowed?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 02:47 PM

"Aren't there any money-counting shanties?"

Well, GK Chesterton came up with this stirring ditty:

"There's a run upon the Bank –
Stand away!
For the Manager's a crank and the Secretary drank,
And the Upper Tooting Bank
Turns to bay!

Stand close: there is a run
On the Bank.
Of our ship, our royal one, let the ringing
Legend run,
That she fired with every gun
Ere she sank."

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:56 PM

Speaking of golf, last night I watched Reba while I had baked beans, applesauce, and water for dinner. And it was all good.

Thank you Mary Wheeler for singing folk songs back to roustabouts to confirm that you had them right. Thank you Bascom Lunsford and Emmet Kennedy and your peers for singing folk songs; without you I'd know less about songs like "Been In The Pen So Long"/"Alberta Let Your Hair Hang Low" and "Poor Boy Long Ways From Home" in their historical contexts. Thank you golf player for finding the time to drop by.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:54 PM

During the early part of the Twentieth Century the banner of folk music was carried by the posh people who were running The EFDSS.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:50 PM

*winces* No, posh is not an acronym. That particular tale has been debunked so many times (like Ship High In Transit or For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge), I'm always surprised it continues to survive. If you want to know the origin of a word (look it up, frankly!) always be suspicious of an acronymic explanation; they're mostly backronyms. Acronyms are a very modern obsession; they really only began to be used as shorthand from about WWI onwards (Ack-ack, Toc H are early versions).

Posh most likely derives from Romany, although it's not certain (the OED gives a more nebulous origin, for example). According to Partridge's dikker of slang, posh is money, specifically a low value coin such as a halfpenny, and reckons it's recorded as early as the mid 19thC. It gives a second definition of "a dandy", which is the OED origin, but that only dates to the end of the 19thC. Essentially, if you'd got a bit of "posh", you'd got a bit of money. "Port out..." was first recroded only as late as 1935, and it wasn't associated with P&O until 1937 (the '35 mention claimed it to be a US shipping term).

As for posh folk singing folk songs, surely the key word here is folk? Posh folk are folk too, so why shouldn't they sing folk! ;-)

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:50 PM

Aren't there any money-counting shanties? Laments that the Bank of England's prime rate isn't what it was? Seasonal songs to welcome the annual dividend?

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:48 PM

What a fucking stupid question.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:44 PM

you should have kept trying, she used to have a set of felt tips to let you fill in the tatoos after the lock in.

Subject: RE: Can Posh People Sing Folk Songs?
From: Musket
Date: 21 Nov 14 - 01:34 PM

In which case, why did so many barmaids tell me to piss off? You can't blame me for trying. They were lovely, and got more lovely with each pint. Even that tatooed one in The Masons' in Mansfield.

Achmelvich.. A bit confused here about you objecting to someone enjoying a concert?

Back to the subject. Plenty of footage abound with Ralph Vaughan Williams, Benjamin Britten and various sopranos working their way through traditional folk songs. Even posher than me, and I'm so posh, I shout "I'm arriving dear!"