BS: Most mysoginist language

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Musket
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 02:48 PM

Mmm. Two posts on two threads by pete saying goes I believe in soemthing. Whilst offering Sheffield Wednesday as fair comment, I am no nearer to know owing what I believe in.

Do we get to have cup cakes and coffee?

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST,#
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 02:00 PM

"I perceive no contradiction, mutual exclusivity of concept, or evasiveness."

Excellent use of the last comma.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 01:53 PM

Indeed, it is based on, permeated and influenced by whether we like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 01:20 PM

I perceive no contradiction, mutual exclusivity of concept, or evasiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 10:51 AM

Hmmmm MG - before it was "based on & permeated"

Now it's "influenced by".

Keep goin' you're headed in the right direction, but you're not there yet.

'Scuse me, now - I gotta call home.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 09:49 AM

By 'our', as you well understand, you awkward bugger, I mean everyone who lives in that part of the world with, or influenced by, a tradition of Christan worship; which means all of Europe, Europeanised America, Australasia, previously 'colonised' parts of Asia & Africa...

Don't you, GF? Maybe not, at that. You come on like a Martian or some sort of ET most of the time...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 09:30 AM

that our entire culture is inescapably based on & permeated by the teachings of our Xtian

What do you mean by "our" MG? My culture certainly isn't and so-called "Christianity"[sic] is a minority religion worldwide.

You & pete make a good team.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 08:51 AM

so true lion.....apart from taking his name in vain.
granted musket, according to modern meanings the bible might seem in places as giving less value to women, but I have already demonstrated it is essentially not in that time and culture, and in fact, far more affirming of womanhood than other ancient cultures.                         as regards fairy stories, I find mine to be far more logical than yours.......but I suppose superstious dogma will always be upheld by those that believe in it !

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Musket
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 04:36 AM

Or as Dave Allen said, after dismissing religion but realising his paying audiences might harbour superstition still, "May your God go with you."

I don't have a hang up with AD/BC. As it is only significant in a literal sense to a decreasing small number of people, it remains a quaint heritage term to the rest of us. Our society, accept it or otherwise, has been built with a Christian superstition thread in it through the ages, and like not walking under ladders or tossing salt over your shoulder, superstition can have an irrational but strong pull on you.

For instance, pete saying that the large number of creation myths by different societies leads to feeling there is something in it. Superstition is very suggestive and not everyone can rationalise to the same level so whilst ever fairy stories exist, the traditions will be upheld by those impressed by them.

Although to say the Bible is not misogynist is stretching it a bit eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 04:24 AM

"Vaya con Dios"

You are a lot of cunning linguists.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 02:25 AM

Or, according to Chambers, "God be with you" -- even more indicative.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 01:30 AM

...logists

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Mar 15 - 01:28 AM

Don't be even sillier than usual, GregF. One doesn't have to subscribe to any particular belief [I don't -- unless you count atheism but let's not go there again!]] to be nevertheless fully aware that our entire culture is inescapably based on & permeated by the teachings of our Xtian tradition as one of its most potent influences. Good god, even you can surely see that's what "Our christian background" means, for christs sake! No specific subscription to the faith is subsumed by the term.

Goodbye [which = "God by you" according to most etymoligists]

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 08:22 PM

I suspect that most of them find the idea that our Christian background should be downplayed strange.

OUR?

What do you mean, "our", pete? Or do you simply mean "your" and, as usual, project your personal nonsense upon the rest of the world, whether it wants it or not, like all good "Christians"[sic] like yourself do?

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 06:45 PM

I thought other faith groupings have their own calenders and time markers, and I don't suppose Christians living in lands where other faiths are majority are concerned about that. I doubt too, whether other faiths here are worried about it either. I suspect that most of them find the idea that our Christian background should be downplayed strange.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 05:42 PM

What tuned me away from the familiar BC/AD was the knowledge (or concern) that many Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc., might not like having their noses rubbed into it. ("Before Christ" is probably less provoking that "In the Year of the Lord.")

BCE used to be defined as "Before the Christian Era" and CE as "(of the) Christian Era." Certainly an improvement, since the focus moves from Jesus to those who worship him and write most of the history books. Then it got changed to "Common Era" because maybe just mentioning Christ might offend millions or billions. Not perfect, but better.

Personally I think people should pay more attention to what they do and what's happening around them than to abstract theoretical concerns about language. Most American academics and journalists seem to think otherwise, so I'm ready to go with the flow and be "on the right side of history," so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 03:25 PM

jeri, my point is that, though some passages can be regarded as devaluing women [ though in their time far less than others ] the very opening account demonstrates that there is equal worth, as both male and female are described as being made in the image of God. and though the male pronoun is always used of God, there are also metaphorical female references employed to denote his activity and character.
Thompson, your recollections are pretty good, though I would differ as to your reflections on the biblical account. and isn't it interesting that there are creation accounts all over the world. I suppose it could be thought a big co incidence, but my view is that there was an original event that is distantly remembered as people spread out across the globe, but became corrupted , as distance and time increased......but I guess that is thread drift as well as population drift !

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 02:49 PM

it aint broke, lion, I presume some think it should never have been a construct.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 10:58 AM

BC/AD

Ain't broke. Don't fix.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 10:50 AM

How is the era common? Well I suppose it is intended to apply to everyone on earth. Unfortunately, plenty of humans either don't recognise Christ or don't even think he existed. Just saying. I have no strong feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 10:42 AM

Insisting on keeping AD and BC Sounds like a bit of Christian imperialism to me. Let's see how the language evolves with that and just run with it. Anyone for reclaiming gay or getting cross about mouse?
Hardly Christian Imperialism.
If a new calendar is to introduced I (as a practising Christian)would not object to any reasonable name being used, but . . .
If we continue to use the existing calendar, which is clearly based on a start date representing Christ's time on earth, I see no valid reason to change the descriptors already in use.

If the 'modern terminology' becomes common I can just imagine in future some quiz questions;
What does 'CE' stand for?: Common Era
How is the era 'common'?; Oh, it relates to the time since Christ.

You can never really get rid of the link whilst keeping the same numbering system.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 10:33 AM

I resisted "CE" an "BCE" for decades. They're now almost universal in America.

Now I don't care anymore.

That's how Old English mutated into Middle English and Middle English into Modern. Neither a good nor a bad thing.

Strictly as language, the linguistic system of Beowulf is neither better nor worse than that of the Canterbury Tales. And Shakespeare would have written works of genius in whatever period he lived in.

In spite of his pronouns.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 08:55 AM

sounds

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 08:54 AM

Insisting on keeping AD and BC Sounds like a bit of Christian imperialism to me. Let's see how the language evolves with that and just run with it. Anyone for reclaiming gay or getting cross about mouse?

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Thompson
Date: 17 Mar 15 - 08:42 AM

I like 'humankind', as did TS Eliot, but what did he know about life. Not too pushed about 'he' being used as a generalism. And 'firefighter' and 'mail-carrier' are more accurate now that there are many postwomen and firewomen.
But you're right, pushing language into your preferred reality system and bullying everyone into obeying it too is annoying. The one that annoys me most is the use of 'CE' (Common Era) and 'BCE' (Before Common Era) to replace 'AD' (Anno Domini, Year of the Lord) and BC (Before Christ). Not because I'm a Christian - I'm not - but this attempt by academics who are trying to suppress the cultural effect of thousands of years of Christianity is too ISIS-like for my taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 08:54 PM

> Had no idea that was even a thing.

Yes, in certain academic circles it's been a thing for years. The English pronoun system is alleged to be perniciously sexist/misogynistic because it has traditionally prescribed "he" and "man" for hypothetical persons regardless of sex ("Every man for himself!" "He who laughs last, laughs best"). Also "mankind" (disgusting, isn't it).

"Humankind," "they" and "he or she," "she or he," or "he/she" or "s/he" are now among the preferred forms. And "firefighter" and "mail-carrier" and "fisher" for "fireman" and "mailman" and "fisherman."

The old usages didn't bother the likes of Jane Austen or Virginia Woolf or Eleanor Roosevelt or Elizabeth I, but what did they know about life, right? (If you get my irony.)

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 08:06 PM

Small point on the biblical creation account - there are two. I assume that the Bible brought together several origin myths and histories of various tribes.
In one of the origin myths, there is the beautifully pantheist account of how God, lonely in the great empty universe, divided light from darkness and land from sea, and then - in a stunning image - "the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters", and living creatures were created, finally humans: "In his own image created he them; male and female created he them" (this is from memory).
Then there's a second version, also in Genesis, where you have Adam and Eve wandering innocently around Eden, and Eden gets chatting to a serpent, which tells her the coolest thing here is the fruit of the tree of knowledge; she tastes it and becomes ashamed; then Adam tastes it, and an angry patriarchal god comes and asks him why he is now ashamed, and he says "The woman tempted me and I ate" (also from memory), and the two are slung out of the nightclub.
There are lots of creation accounts; one African one, I seem to remember, relates to a giant anthill which represents a clitoris. The various creation myths seem to say a lot about the groups of humans clinging to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 07:49 PM

Fraeulein is, again, a diminutive, as is Maennchen (little man). They're all gender-neutral. Good point about Weib, though - I don't know why that should be the case.

Sorry I missed your implied skepticism of the "misogynist language" theory. Had no idea that was even a thing...

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 05:29 PM

> your point is not evidence of German being misogynistic.

Of course it, although I hinted last time that the whole question is sophomoric.

According to the "misogynist language" theory, if women are regarded as "neuter" - regardless of any historical, grammatical explanation - they are constantly being discriminated against because language compels both men and women to regard women as sexless, "neuter" objects, even if only unconsciously.

"Weib" - wife - is also neuter, as is "Fraulein" - young lady. "Mann," however, - man or husband - is masculine, as as "Junge" - boy.

See the linguistically institutionalized sexism? It's even worse than English!

But as I say, the ingeniously fabricated issue of "misogynist languages" is quite silly. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 05:16 PM

BWL: Are you sure you're not confusing "twat" and "twit"?

Lighter: The German word for girl you're referring to is Maedchen (can't do an Umlaut here) which is indeed neuter gender. However, it is the diminutive of the word Magd (maid) which is female. By a twist of German grammar, all diminutives are neuter, which means your point is not evidence of German being misogynistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 01:44 PM

Klingon ?????

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 01:30 PM

Vulgar and misogynistic are not the same things.

Pete, if I recall correctly, man was made in God's image, and woman (the first one in Eden, anyway--not sure about the ones elsewhere) was made from a man's rib. This can be interpreted different ways, depending on context. In the context of the day, I'm fairly confident the meaning woman was less than man.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 01:20 PM

In the creation account, it is clear that man is generic since gen 1:27 says man is made in Gods image, male and female. And what may seem in our time demeaning of women in the bible ,was greatly better than the other ancient cultures. As already alluded to, the most common language demeaning of women, is vulgar talk alluding none too gently to the fairer sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 12:55 PM

Obviously German, since the usual word for "girl" is of neuter gender.

BTW, languages aren't misogynist. People (including many women) are misogynist.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 12:06 PM

Also, see Women, Fire and Dangerous Things, by Goerge Lakoff.

And yes, using women's body parts as insults is the very definition of misogyny. Almost literally, wouldn't you say?

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 11:53 AM

The lexica of various languages may have different numbers of words which could be called misogynistic, but it's the degree to which those words are used that is the real issue. Language A may have several derogatory words for female genitalia while Language B has very few. But if speakers of Language A rarely use any of their several terms while speakers of Language B use their handful of terms all the time then, in usage terms, Language B is more misogynistic.

Also, the meanings of words change over time and the intended meaning can sometimes only be inferred by context. "Twat" has come to mean "idiot" as much as its original meaning of "vagina". If you call a careless driver a "stupid twat", are you guilty of misogyny? Is it misogyny if said driver is a woman, but not if he's a man?

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 10:29 AM

Lakota, Finnish, Turkish and some other languages

Now, lets talk about the role of Women in traditional Lakota society.....

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 09:21 AM

Oh and going off at a tangent. I seem to remember an old friend of my mother (Pip) who gave her some words saying pronouncing words in Welsh is easy (even though things like double l and f and a single f sounding like a v seem strange to us English, it's pretty phonetic) but mutation is difficult. Apparently, it comes naturally to someone brought up with Welsh - they just do it - but it's hard work for others.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 08:55 AM

OK Jeri, I'll try...

I'm no linguist but some languages do have a gender for all nouns. I've just found a brief thing on Welsh here.


I notice that not only do the nouns mutate differently, two dogs and two children seem to be male...

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 06:50 AM

How's about the language of nitpickers?

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Musket
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 04:24 AM

Most of which have sanskrit roots. Puts that ancient language in contention if language must be singled out...

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Monique
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 03:27 AM

Lakota, Finnish, Turkish and some other languages have no 3rd person gendered pronouns either.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 03:12 AM

Good point, Musket. Most languages can be turned to whatever purpose you wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Musket
Date: 16 Mar 15 - 02:57 AM

Whatever the mother language of the misogynist in question.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 10:45 PM

Hungarian has no gender at all, not even separate terms for he and she. There are words for men and women, just no gender in the grammar. I don't know any other language that doesn't have 3rd person gendered pronouns.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 10:12 PM

He didn't fucking ask about religions. He asked about LANGUAGES. Some people's your hatred certain religion, political groups or nations makes this place damned tedious at times.

I doubt anyone can answer this. I don't think anyone knows all the languages currently being spoken/written on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST,.gargolee
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 10:11 PM

What an up-lifting, positive Mudcat thread....

Cunt, Whore, Bitch


Sincerely,
GARGOYLE

What in all the Good Lord's creation would incite you to initiate such a thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 09:15 PM

Women in the Koran

"They ask you about menstruation. Say: 'It is an indisposition. Keep aloof from women during their menstrual periods and do not approach them until they are clean again; when they are clean, have intercourse with them whence God enjoined you….'" Quran 2:222, "The Cow," Dawood, p. 34

"Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please." Quran 2:223, "The Cow," Dawood, p. 34

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them." Quran 4:34, "Women," Dawood, p. 83

"A male shall inherit twice as much as a female." Quran 4:11, "Women," Dawood, p. 77

"Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses…" Quran 2:282, "The Cow," Dawood, p. 47

"Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women." Quran 2:228, Dawood, p. 35

"If you fear that you cannot treat [orphan girls] with fairness, then you may marry other women who seem good to you: two, three, or four of them. But if you fear that you cannot maintain equality among them, marry one only or any slave-girl you may own." Quran 4:3, "Women," Dawood, p. 76

"If you are in doubt concerning those of your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those [of your wives] who have not yet menstruated." Quran 65:4, "Divorce," Dawood, p. 557 [Dawood notes: "On account of their young age. Child marriages were common."]

"[Forbidden to you are] married women, except those whom you own as slaves." Quran 4:24, "Women," Dawood, p. 81

"You shall not wed pagan women, unless they embrace the Faith. A believing slave-girl is better than an idolatress, although she may please you. Nor shall you wed idolaters, unless they embrace the Faith." Quran 2:221, "The Cow," Dawood, p. 34.

"Enjoin believing women to turn their eyes away from temptation and to preserve their chastity; not to display their adornments (except such as are normally revealed); to draw their veils over their bosoms and not to display their finery except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their step-sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women-servants, and their slave-girls; male attendants lacking in natural vigour, and children who have no carnal knowledge of women. And let them not stamp their feet when walking so as to reveal their hidden trinkets." Quran 24:31, "Light," Dawood, p. 352

"Wives of the Prophet, you are not like other women. If you fear God, do not be too complaisant in your speech, lest the lecherous-hearted should lust after you. Show discretion in what you say. Stay in your homes and do not display your finery as women used to in the days of ignorance." Quran 33:32-3, Dawood, p. 421 [The "days of ignorance" refer to pre-Islamic times.]

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 09:05 PM

Christianity hardly 'demonizes' women. After God (in Trinity or Unity) the most venerated person in Roman Catholic churches is the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Maybe you've been reading too much Dan Brown. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Most mysoginist language
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Mar 15 - 07:59 PM

The act of omission of blessings for women stand out in the Hebrew traditions. Only recently have women created new blessings that include the female.
I understood that early Christianity was closer to Greek mythologies which included female gods but over time new versions of the bible wrote out or demonized women.