BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats

Subject: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 21 Mar 15 - 10:10 AM

I'd like some clarity please on chemical composition of margarines and vegetable oil based spreads. I'm not seeking general opinions but info about what margarines (I don't use butter and don't wish to for a number of reasons) are best and worst where the trans fat issue is concerned.

From what I understand any product that lists as an ingredient 'hydrogenated oils' is to be avoided, as are 'mono and diglycerides of fatty acids', and 'emulsifier E471'

This dairy free marge, seems to manage to avoid all those things:

http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/cgi-local/frameset/detail/408545_Pure_Sunflower_Spread_500g.html

"Pure Sunflower Spread 500g
Dairy Free Pure Sunflower Spread

Ingredients
Sunflower oil (40%), water, vegetable oils, salt (0.75%), natural flavouring, vitamin E, Vitamin A, Colour (Natural Carotenes), Vitamin D2, Vitamin B12.

Does that sound OK or is anything hiding in there? I may switch to this one as its available most supermarkets. Vitalite which is another dairyfree sunflower marge, has the emulsifier in it so I don't think I'll get that again and most other veg marges have dairy in which disagrees with me.


(for folks in the States, we don't have transfats listed alongside other fats on our labels like you do, so we have to figure out what has them in by where they may come from).

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 15 - 10:42 AM

I fought that battle, I don't have the research at my finger tips but my conclusion was to avoid all margarine, use butter instead, and mostly I use a good extra virgin olive oil from one country of origin.

If you'd like to post the keywords that most concern you I'll do an academic search and post the results, though you'd probably have to go to your library to look them up.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 15 - 11:10 AM

Interesting that the major component of the Pure Sunflower Spread is simply listed as "vegetable oils" The "vegetable oils" would have to be saturated fats to keep the spread in a solid state. Those are probably palm or coconut oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 15 - 11:55 AM

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that butter, used in moderation, is likely to be less 'bad for you' than any of the plastic alternatives. I used Bertolli olive-oil spread for a time, until I realised that it contains the aforementioned mono- and di-glycerides of fatty acids, so I stick to butter now, plus extra-virgin olive oil for dipping, salad dressing, etc. We cook with olive oil also.

FWIW, my cholesterol is checked annually as part of my Diabetic Check-up, and my score is 2.0 (and I don't take any cholesterol-control medications).

If you can tolerate dairy, I'd say stick to butter.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 15 - 12:15 PM

There was a good edition of the New Scientist, August 23, 2013 on this and other food science

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Mar 15 - 01:33 PM

not knowing your issues, hard to say... but you can take unsalted butter and heat it to separate the lipid from the milk solids and water. It will congeal when cooled, so can be spread.

Clarified butter also has a much longer shelf life than fresh butter. It has negligible amounts of lactose and casein and is, therefore, acceptable to most who have a lactose intolerance or milk allergy.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: olddude
Date: 21 Mar 15 - 04:51 PM

Well my heart doc said real light butter is far better for you than most all artificial stuff

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 15 - 08:11 PM

"Water" how much? "Vegetable Oils" which, and how much? "Natural Flavouring" which? You seem to have found one of the more virtuous spreads, but being an untrusting sort these items still niggle for me.

If you are very serious then it might be simplest to make your own, avoiding those ingredients with which you have an issue, though you would doubtless need to experiment a bit. This article gives a rundown on the process.

Like some of the others my personal choice is to eschew marge altogether as being too complicated, and just limit my consumption to a small amount of real butter plus a little olive oil for cooking. Clearly as CS has a problem with dairy products a more creative solution is required for her.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Mar 15 - 08:15 PM

Here's the text you need:

http://www.amazon.com/Know-Your-Fats-Understanding-Cholesterol/dp/0967812607

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 22 Mar 15 - 02:10 AM

Thanks for the comments so far.

GUEST: homemade marge! I never realised you could. I make a lot of other things myself, so I'd certainly be willing to try it. I may look into that. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 15 - 05:34 AM

If you're a veggie you can eat butter and olive oil, two lovely natural products. I have bread with either, whatever takes my fancy at the time. If you're vegan or cholesterol-shy you'll be just fine with the olive oil. Whatever you are you never need to resort to the bleached, coloured, deodorised, processed, blended chemical trash that most margarines and "low fat spreads" consist of. I find it odd that vegetarians and health freaks feel that they need to resort to these thoroughly artificial concoctions. Ironic, really.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST, not a chemist
Date: 22 Mar 15 - 01:08 PM

Are we sure that process of heating and stirring the mixture of oil, water, and emulsifier, as described in the Washington Post article, doesn't change the molecular structure of the oil, making it partially hydrogenated?

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: maeve
Date: 22 Mar 15 - 02:46 PM

Apple butter was the spread of choice in New England.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 22 Mar 15 - 05:32 PM

These are all easy:

water
emulsifier (yolk, or soy lecitine (yolk has lecitine))
oil (any oil you choose, animal, vergiatable or mineral)

salt and vinegar add a stablizer effect that will add longevity to the creation....otherwise....use it....like a "holandayse sause" immediately.

Gargoyle

a "sous chef" is a fine asperat.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 01:23 AM

Not a chemist, at a guess I would imagine it's to do with how high the heat is?

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 01:31 AM

I'd also imagine one would want to choose an oil that's stable when heated, like a monounsaturated oil - I think most polyunsaturated oils are unstable when heated. I use olive oil to cook with in the main.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 04:58 AM

You shouldn't cook with extra virgin olive oil. It has a low smoke point and undergoes chemical changes at quite low temperatures. Refined light olive oil is ok. I use that for all my Italian recipes. Napolina is good. For my home-made oven chips, for which I need especially high temperatures, I use groundnut oil, which is neutral in flavour, doesn't break down and makes my chips lovely and crispy. Horses for courses. Just buy decent quality oil, avoid those massive bottles of cheap vegetable oil and forget the saturated/unsaturated claptrap.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: mayomick
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 11:11 AM

"Olive oil spread is better for you than butter or margarine and it's great on toast. It's also really easy to make your own! 

The secret? Olive oil spread is simply olive oil kept at a cold enough temperature that it solidifies. "
http://www.instructables.com/id/Homemade-olive-oil-spread/

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 11:39 AM

Just dip the bread in your finest extra virgin oil. Even better with top-quality balsamic vinegar in with the oil. And I don't mean that horrid thin stuff that costs two quid a bottle. You don't get decent balsamic for less than about twelve quid the bottle, but it lasts a long time. It's so thick you have to be patient when pouring it out. Great for salad dressing too. They don't do olive oil/balsamic bread dipping in Italy. More fool them! You want great garlic bread? Mix EVOO with a squashed garlic clove. Slice up a ciabatta and toast it both sides. Whilst it's still hot, smear both sides thinly with your garlicky oil using a pastry brush. Or you can brush it first before toasting if you like. Eat as is, float it in your soup or put toppings on à la crostini. Chopped nocellara olives and cherry tomatoes with chilli flakes and balsamic vinegar is superb. Or salami. Or pesto. Anything really. Garlicky peas puréed with warm butter and Parmesan. I salivate in your general direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 12:43 PM

While some natural oil products seem to be mostly better, and some other oils seem worse (for example, trans fats) - from a specfic health perspective, the research, marketing hype and health trends seems to vary and change wildly with time. A google search will find much conflicting health information on all oils.

My conclusion is less, versus greater, consumption of edible oils, as it seems to make some health sense. There seems to be no "silver health bullet" when it comes to any oils that stands up to rigiorous research scrutiny over time - though broad health claims, hype, vested interests, tunnel vision, selective thinking, and assumptions abound. But, on the other hand, the enjoyment of foods is one of life's joys.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 01:42 PM

"A google search will find much conflicting health information on all oils."

That's because 90% of health info that comes up on A Google search is pseudo science. If one knows how to critically evaluate scientific information there is pretty much consensus on the benefits and harms of oils on health. That, of course, is based on current scientific information which is always subject to revision as more studies are done.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 01:53 PM

"That's because 90% of health info that comes up on A Google search is pseudo science."

And, where is the research behind that very general statement ;)


It does not take much effort to separate out the two-including sketchy research from what seems to be reliable research sources that is refuted by follow-up research at a later date

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 06:06 PM

I don't give a monkey's about health silver bullets. I do care about good, tasty food. I'll not compromise on that by buying low-fat crap or manufactured "spreads". All things in moderation, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 06:32 PM

I don't think I disagreed with that, Steve. However, many do seek out the trendy health food craze of the month. Note I also refered to the joy of food.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 15 - 08:08 PM

Indeed you did. It is amazing, though, how some people will worry so much about their health that they'll eschew perfectly healthy and natural foods and go for nasty, manufactured concoctions instead that are peddled to them on the backs of spurious health claims. Take for example all that Yakult and mmm Danone runny yoghurt crap that is sold in tiny, stale little phials for massive prices. And Benecol with its "plant statins" that, if you're lucky, will reduce your cholesterol by a tiny percentage as long as you spend hundreds of pounds a year drinking the stuff. On top of that, we have "superfoods". A woman in Waitrose's fruit and veg aisle pointed to the blueberry punnets and told me that if I ate blueberries the pounds would roll off me in droves, and that she was the living proof. She was actually the living proof only that she was barking mad.    One bloke I know simply must have twenty goji berries on his porridge every morning for fear he'll die if he doesn't get them. Then there's pomegranate seeds, miracle of miracles (the juice is rather good in a Tequila Sunrise, of course). You can buy a little carton of pasteurised pomegranate juice (with added sweetener) for three quid. When I was in Northern Cyprus the pomegranates on the market stalls were in heaps six feet tall. They could hardly give them away. And don't get me started on "supplements"!

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Mar 15 - 03:05 AM

Real butter or olive oil....they both digest.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 15 - 04:33 AM

The Mrs made some butter yesterday so we know exactly what has gone in it! Saved the buttermilk to make some scones today. I will sample both this evening :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 15 - 06:16 AM

"They both digest"? I wasn't aware that either contained biologically-significant amounts of digestive enzymes. You live and learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 15 - 01:13 PM

She ain't made the scones yet but the butter was delicious on a hot cross bun :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 11:57 AM

I'm still interested to hear from anyone who wants to talk about the topic of trans-fats though. I believe it's one of the worst offenders for cholesterol after saturated fat?

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 12:33 PM

In terms of heart health trans fats are now seen as a worse culprit than saturated fats even though the role of all dietary fats in heart disease is in some dispute. The big bogeyman man du jour is sugars, fructose in particular. The fact that fully 50% of heart attack victims have what is considered normal (but is really average) cholesterol levels has always been the fly in the ointment as far as the cholesterol/heart disease connection.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 01:06 PM

I thought saturated fats had been exonerated in any case. Heart disease reached its zenith in the 20th century. Keep the weight down, keep active, quit the ciggies, eat your greens and avoid processed foods, too much sugar and chemically-contrived crap such as low-fat spreads. Am I getting warm?

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 01:07 PM

Oh, and stop worrying and enjoy life.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 01:12 PM

I'm convinced that cholesterol levels are more to do with the individual's metabolism/genetic profile and less to do with fat-intake, saturated or otherwise.

As I said earlier, I eat butter and cheese (both in moderation), red meat, etc., and my cholesterol count is 2.0. It's tested every year as part of my diabetic check-up and, since I was diagnosed in 2007, it has been between 1.8 and 2.2. Anything below 5 is considered good. I have never taken any kind of 'cholesterol-reducing, medication, and I don't waste my money on stuff like Benecol.

I have friends who are strict vegetarians, and their cholesterol was measured at 8. Go figure!

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Mar 15 - 01:15 PM

And I reckon Steve nailed it in his last two posts! 👍

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Mar 15 - 04:34 AM

The scones were lovely too. But I managed to restrict myself to just the one :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Mar 15 - 04:52 AM

Will-power of the highest magnitude, Dave - I salute you! 👍
I, on the other hand, am a weak-willed wretch - I'd have had two. 😳

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Mar 15 - 04:57 AM

Trans fats are very bad, but they are not used much now.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Mar 15 - 05:56 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Ed T
Date: 26 Mar 15 - 10:23 AM

Anyone have reliable research information on salt intake and health. While moderate intake for those with high blood pressure seems common advice, I have noted that medical advice seems to be all over the place related to other potential health impacts from high dietary salt intake.

Subject: RE: BS: Margarines / Spreads and Transfats
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 15 - 06:49 PM

I don't know about salt and health, but I do know that the food industry has a vested interest in getting us addicted to salt. It's a very cheap ingredient which can mask (at least for some) the lack of flavour in the inferior ingredients they use to keep costs down. In the last few years I've expanded my culinary repertoire considerably, and I find that reducing salt in many dishes, provided the ingredients are of the first water, is undetectable. Use good ingredients, and think about using herbs more, and you won't have to worry as much about your salt intake.