BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales

Subject: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 May 15 - 05:10 PM

There are quite a few discussions of this scattered around the web. One at random:

http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/fly-grazing-questions

It's very thinly disguised piece of anti-Gypsy legislation, enabling landowners and councils to confiscate and kill horses found grazing on their land, in the name of "horse welfare".

I can't see single voice raised in protest.

How the fuck did this happen with no meaningful discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 May 15 - 05:22 PM

I know nothing whatsoever about this but the article which you link to contains this para:

Will this disproportionately affect Gypsies and Travellers?

No. The Act will affect only those people who fly-graze their animals – not responsible owners – no matter what their background may be. Before the Bill was presented in Parliament, representatives of The Gypsy Council spoke to Parliament's Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee about this issue and made it clear that they did not regard this as a problem specifically related to Gypsies and Travellers – like us, they regarded it as a problem of irresponsible ownership.

World Horse Welfare has always been clear with the public and the Government that many Gypsies and Travellers take good care of their horses and that horses were fly-grazed by a wide range of people from all kinds of backgrounds.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 15 - 05:24 PM

If somebody leaves a horse on your land, after 4 days its yours.
If they leave a motor vehicle you can do f*** all about it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 May 15 - 05:41 PM

The Act will affect only those people who fly-graze their animals – not responsible owners

I fail to see anything in the least irresponsible about grazing an animal on public or otherwise ungrazed land.

This act is just another excuse for councils to persecute Gypsies.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 27 May 15 - 11:18 PM

After the 2008 financial debacle, a lot of American farmers suddenly found horses on their land that had been left there by yuppies who couldn't afford the animals anymore.

Sorry I don't have statistics, but no doubt it can be a real problem for a farmer.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 May 15 - 02:17 AM

That isn't what this is about. Councils have a lot of unused land and unlike the US, we have a substantial community of Gypsies that racists (and racist councillors in particular) want to exterminate.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Thompson
Date: 28 May 15 - 02:41 AM

The piece refers to euthanasia as a last resort. It should, obviously, be much clearer when and how and under what circumstances.

In Ireland, Travellers have taken in recent years to trotting races. I always rather liked seeing a couple of lads trotting a pony in a sulky past my house in the early mornings, but a Department of Agricultural vet, who adores horses, went into an absolute rage when I said so, and told me that if I'd seen the damage to ponies' fetlocks from fast trotting on tarmac surfaces I wouldn't love it so much. "A horse's hooves and ankles aren't designed to trot on hard surfaces," he said.

We've had the same problem as Britain of once-wealthy people who bought horses as a status symbol and couldn't maintain them when they lost their work and their money. Even during the good times, someone told me about a neighbours' horses that were left permanently rugged-up; she sneaked out and took off the rugs to give the horses a curry one early morning and found them crawling with worms underneath.

We also have the same horrid snobbery, however; not far from where I live, a young lad stables two horses he works with as a jarvey. The nice suburban mews road where his stable is has a strip of grass in the centre, where he used to graze them - until his neighbours pointlessly put up boulders to stop him. Instead, they use a petrol-guzzling sit-on mower to mow the grass.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 28 May 15 - 05:44 AM

I fail to see anything in the least irresponsible about grazing an animal on public or otherwise ungrazed land.

Read the article which your linked page refers to. Quite apart from animal welfare issues, flygrazing is a problem because it interferes with the lawful use of the land, creates problems with neighbours and can present safety hazards especially when close to roads or paths.

I am the land manager for a national charity which owns land throughout the UK. From time to time we have had fly-grazing on our land, and on no occasion was it done by gypsies or travellers. Previously it was difficult to take action, and expensive. This new law is to be welcomed.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 28 May 15 - 08:09 AM

As someone who has kept horses for many years I can see lots of issues with tethered horses.

   A horse left on a long tether is at risk of getting the tether tangled around its legs, leading to panic and a fair chance of a broken leg. Often horses are tethered by a main road where they are especially likely to be spooked.
   A tethered horse is open to attack by hooligans, and being tethered it can't escape .
    Speaking from experience ,the public have no idea about handling horses. Both adults and children will attempt to approach a horse from all sides often moving quickly and shreeking. A frightened horse is quite likely to kick out and cause serious injury, possibly death ,especially to a child. A tethered horse is unsupervised, and therefore the public can't be warned.
    No one who cares about a horse would leave it tethered, and a danger to itself and others.

      Some horses need to be protected from their owners!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 15 - 09:02 AM

Speaking from experience ,the public have no idea about handling horses...

Don't know much myself but I know this horse bites or threatens to. He will take grass from your hand quite happily but you must not try to touch him. When I've seen people try to give him a "nice horsey" pat, he's displayed them his full set of gnashers. There used to be a notice there warning people.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 28 May 15 - 02:23 PM

There is a great deal of legislation about animal welfare which addresses the sort of problem posed by someone negligently tethering a horse.

What England didn't have until this Act was legislation which criminalizes grazing horses on land which has been treated as commons since before the Romans arrived, be it a canal towpath or the rough in a public golf course. That's what this new law is intended to provide: it's a new sort of enclosure, designed to make nomadic movement with horses impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:54 AM

Jack, neither a canal towpath nor a public golf course are common land - they are private property. Even true common land is not free-for-all - only those who have grazing rights are allowed to graze animals on them.

Nomadic movement with horses won't be affected by this act (although if travellers are camping on land then different powers will be used to remove them). Abandoning animals while the owners travel elsewhere certainly will be, but since this could put both the animals and the public at risk then it certainly should be controlled. The previous laws were ineffective which is why this legislation was introducded. Why should travellers be above the law?

Most perpetrators are not gypsies or travellers, and as has already been pointed out the Gypsy Council doesn't see this law as aimed at them.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 May 15 - 04:16 AM

I've lived in Sussex for 40 years and seen many, many groups of travellers (gypsies or otherwise) passing through or staying near the village in that time. And I've never yet seen any with wagons and horses. The only horse-drawn van is that of a pleasant young chap who comes through here every other year or so and camps for a few days on a piece of green owned by a local householder. All the kids love him - he's a knife-grinder - and everyone stops to chat to him.

I should imagine - and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong - that there are more traditional horse-drawn modes of transport in Ireland, for example. To which this act doesn't apply. There may also be other parts of the UK where gypsies and horses are more common, but I've rarely seen them anywhere in recent years.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 May 15 - 04:29 AM

I fail to see anything in the least irresponsible about grazing an animal on public or otherwise ungrazed land
as I understand it there is no "public" land. It is all owned by somebody. Common Land has commoners rights accrued by various means, usually ancient.
Malvern Link Common is owned by the Malvern Conservators and commoners were granted rights in a re-shuffle in the 60's and when I was looking for a house in the area one house adjacent had grazing rights, others might have been a mile away but kept sheep.
The fact that you can walk across it is because of the duties of the conservators. In extremis they can evict anyone or their animal if deemed inappropriate.
I used to post adverts for the Malvern Fringe, strictly "by arrangement" on their land, because the local highways did not allow on their street furniture.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:27 AM

The fact that a piece of land was treated as common land before the Romans arrived would not, in most cases, mean that the same piece of land is common land now, or that it was common land until the new Act came into force recently (whether or not it is now being used as a canal towpath or a golf course).

Incidentally, a few years ago some gypsies camped temporarily in the corner of a large supermarket car park in Sandhurst. I was impressed that they had managed to camp only about 100 yards from where there used to be a field in which gypsies would camp regularly some 40 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:52 AM

I walk my dog on one of those areas where various people have grazing rigths, including for horses. The horses are left to roam over many square kilometers and move around with the weather and season. I am told that their owners keep an eye on where they are check them often enough to take care of welfare issues.

A couple of time over the last few years posters with legal notices appeared to the effect that a horse not owned by someone with grazing rights would be removed and sold or destroyed within a certain number of days.

There were descriptions and pictures of the horses - all were Shetland ponies.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 29 May 15 - 09:51 AM

Hi, Ian. I found your post about tethering horses interesting. I didn't know people did that. It seems to me that a tethered horse might be in danger from a pack of dogs.

I used to work for an injury lawyer. One day we got a phone call from a man whose little daughter had been kicked to death by a horse. Clearly neither the daughter nor the mother knew how to act around a horse.

I don't have a horse, but one day I read a book by a horse owner who said that there is no scientific justification for horse shoes, and that they are bad for the horses, because they prevent the hoof from spreading when the horse puts weight on it. He also said that a horse should not be kept in stall, ever, because it is a horse's instinct to move freely about. What do you think of those two things?

He said that wild horses on open land live years longer than tame horses. Makes ya think, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,Ian
Date: 29 May 15 - 02:46 PM

Hi, crazy little women,

       In my experience horses need shoes if they are doing a lot of work on hard road surfaces, as the hoof can wear down very quickly. Also competition horses need to be shod if they are on soft ground. Competition shoes have a hole in which allows a stud to be screwed into the bottom of the shoe to stop the horse slipping.
    When our last two horses were retired they weren't shod for quite a few years. The blacksmith just trimmed the hoof every 6 weeks. They had no problems at all.
    I'm not quite sure what he meant by a stall. If you mean a narrow stall where the horse can't move around I agree with him. If he meant a stable I think it depends on circumstances. If horses are kept on grass all the time they can put on far too much weight, which can make work difficultSome horses suffer a severe foot problem called laminitis caused by eating too much rich grass, and need to be kept in a stable and grass limited.
   The two retired horses I mentioned above spent their last few years outside and were really happy. We brought them into a stable once in that period in heavy snow and they weren't happy to be in a stable. After that they spent the rest of their retirement outside.
Hope this helps

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 30 May 15 - 10:07 AM

Thanks for the information, Ian.

I'm pretty sure the author of the book lived in an arid part of California where he didn't encounter the laminitis problem. However, he should have been aware of it so as not to mislead readers from other parts of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Musket
Date: 30 May 15 - 11:56 AM

"Councillors want to exterminate gypsies."

Any chance of coming out of that tree Jack, so we can talk with you?

Comments like that don't deserve debate. Will gave a quote from representatives of travellers agreeing with the thrust of the bill, and the whole bill to me looks like decent animal welfare.

Nothing to see here.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,Hells horsedrawn
Date: 07 Sep 15 - 06:08 PM

Well i've been horsedrawn for over twenty years . This law scares me . Every where i park is owned by somebody . Mostly i park on grass verges . This feels rather personnel amd also a class issue . We havn't all got pots of money . My horses are well cared for . They get better grazing than many horses on over grazed "grass sick " fields

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 07:14 AM

This is a very serious problem. They are not sweet old people with a Varda, these are violent anti - social scum. We had Fly Grazing on Community land in our village. If it happens to you remember this.you are responsible for the well being of the horses, should they escape and cause an accident you are liable. If they are sick you are responsible for the Vet's bill, if they die you foot the bill for the carcass disposal. The scrotes that dumped the horses threatened one man that his Crufts Champion dogs would die if he tried to evict them You may remember the Crufts Champion dog that died in Belgium, well it belonged to the same bloke. Very upsetting for him. The Police would do nothing
With 2 Solicitors , 2 Barristers and a High Court Judge in the Village it was me that found the Act that enabled us to move them on. I really hope that it does not happen to you or your community

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 09:14 AM

I'd rather have "GUEST, Hells horsedrawn" as a neighbour rather than "GUEST, OldNicKilby" any day.

I'm guessing that the latter is a gutless faker who's stolen a regular Mudcatter's name.

---

This seems to be the real member. Can't blame the troll for that post. --mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 10:03 AM

It is unlikely that councils will use this act on horses that are being looked after properly and are not causing a nuisance. Apart from other considerations, they don't have the resources to pursue situations which aren't causing any problems. Some councils are developing specific policies to address this, including licensing systems to allow responsible owners permission to graze

The law is intended to target horses which are tethered or abandoned by irresponsible owners, creating safety and animal welfare issues which cost landowners, councils and animal welfare charities significant sums to deal with.

As for it being a class issue, many fly grazed animals have been abandoned by middle-class owners who can no longer afford them. Irresponsible horse owners are found in all levels of society.   Yet again I refer to Will Fly's post of 27 May 15 - 05:22 PM when he quoted the representatives of the Gypsy Council who made it clear that they did not regard this law as specifically directed at gypsies and travellers but as a problem of irresponsible ownership.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Sep 15 - 06:47 PM

Yeah right. Does the expression "Vichy France" resonate at all?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 06:24 AM

No Jack I am a real person, and had the guts at 75 years old to confront these bastards. It is "Travelers" that are Fly Grazing and not "Middle Class owners "in the U K because the Welsh Parliament have had the courage to pass legislation to control it. The Westminster crew just managed to get it through before Parliament was dissolved. I experienced the upset and terror that was evident in the village where I live. Please do not be so bloody offensive, you should face up to the reality of the truth and have to deal with these people, There is no help whatsoever from the Police or the Local Authorities, they have washed their hands of this situation
We were told in no uncertain terms by the Police that we were totally responsible for any and all costs involved with these animals

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 07:28 AM

What rank officer or local government official told you that, Nic? Would there have been any chance of going above their heads to a higher officer, or the Chief Constable? Did you inform your MP of the situation? It appears you are not receiving the support and protection of the Law to which you should be entitled.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 07:50 AM

There was ZERO help from anybody. Not our problem it's yours . We were left on our own as a Community. Seriously we have 2 Solicitors, 2 Barristers and a High Court Judge and they could find no help whatsoever. Until you find yourself in this position you cannot comprehend the trauma. It was me that found the new legislation that finally solved our problem. I sincerely hope that you are not exposed to this problem. Just imagine that someone fly grazes your garden. You now have full responsibility for those horses and if they die you must bear the costs of disposing of the carcass , about £800. If they escape on to the road and cause an accident you are responsible

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 01:07 PM

Plant yew. That will stop fly-grazing.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 08:37 AM

No Richard, There was a fine crop of the pernicious yellow weed (Can't remember the name, but lethal to horses ) they threatened to sue the land - owner if their horses fell ill.
P S What happened to "Good Soldiers " post from yesterday ,it has vanished ?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 09:36 AM

Old NickKilby,
             Your Fly grazing experience presumably took place before the new act came into force,the site below explains the actions which can now be taken to resolve the situation.
The only things a landowner is responsible for is to food and water are available and no harm comes to the animal until the animal is reclaimed by the owner. The horse owner has to refund the cost if they reclaim the horse.


http://www.qualitybailiffs.co.uk/news/articles/fly-grazing-horse.html

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 09:40 AM

Correction,
The only things that a landowner are responsible for is to ensure food and water are available and no harm comes to the animal until the animal is reclaimed by the owner.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 10:53 AM

The "yellow weed" would be ragwort. I believe it is against the law to allow it to grow in the UK, but nature lovers object to its destruction because it is the food plant of cinnabar moth caterpillars - those black and yellow stripy ones.
However, those caterpillars also eat groundsel so the nature lovers could just make sure there is a supply of groundsel available.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 11:11 AM

It isn't against the law to let ragwort grow. If you have ragwort on your land, you're not obliged to do anything automatically, though you could become subject of an order to control it if it is deemed to be a hazard. Ragwort grows on every piece of farmland around here and it pops up in my garden every year.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:21 PM

Ragwort is the same as ragweed. In my American city, there is an ordinance against it, although you have to have a lot of ragwood before any bothers to enforce it.

According to the American College of Asthma, Allergy and Immunology,

"Ragweed allergy symptoms include sneezing; runny or stuffy nose; itchy throat or inside of ears; hives; and swollen eyelids and itchy eyes. This is often called hay fever or seasonal allergic rhinitis. Some people also develop asthma symptoms, such as coughing, wheezing, and trouble breathing."

Caterpillars or no, it sounds like a weed to get rid of. (When people have trouble breathing, it's time to draw the line.) Don't mistake innocent goldenrod for ragweed, however.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:44 PM

Ragwort and ragweed are very different plants, though they are in the same family. Ragwort does not present a significant pollen hazard, as ragweed does. Ragwort has heavy, sticky pollen, carried by insects. Ragweed is wind-pollinated, hence its notoriety as a cause of allergic reactions. One hazard of both is confusion caused by English names, which is why we botanists tend to use Latin names. I suppose Ambrosia artemisiifolia and Senecio jacobaea don't roll off the tongue quite so readily.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:11 PM

Would that be Jacobaea vulgaris ?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:27 PM

Yes. I'm of the old school, a lumper, not a splitter. It takes at least twenty years to get seasoned old field botanists like me to embrace new nomenclature! Ragwort to me looks like a Senecio, smells like a Senecio and feels like a Senecio. You can put lipstick on a Senecio, but it's still a Senecio!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 06:49 AM

Yes, it was around the time whilst the Act had the "Royal Assent " and became Law. Ragwort is a bugger for my Hay Fever

Subject: RE: BS: 'Fly-grazing' in England and Wales
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 15 - 02:43 PM

P S What happened to "Good Soldiers " post from yesterday ,it has vanished ?
the GSS is deemed a loose cannon, his posts must be removed, he might shortly be sent to cyberspace outer siberia.