BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel

Subject: BS: More Christian Persecution
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 15 - 08:36 AM

Story Here

Subject: RE: BS: More Christian Persecution
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 15 - 08:45 AM

Why no beheadings?

Subject: RE: BS: More Christian Persecution
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 15 - 09:00 AM

"no beheadings"
Ah well - as long as they keep their persecution within reason
Can't help that one of the newly elected Israeli ministers has declared that Israel was "bequeathed by God to the Jewish people"
That should calm things down a bit!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: More Christian Persecution
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 15 - 12:19 PM

So in Israel Christian schools are funded by Israeli taxpayers. Can you tell us how many Christian schools in other middle East Muslim countries are funded by their taxpayers?

Subject: RE: BS: More Christian Persecution
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 May 15 - 01:11 PM

So, Greg F, what did you want to say about the subject? Or, in an attempt to start a fight, did you just post a provocative title and a link to something that doesn't mean a whole lot?
In some countries, taxpayers pay for the education of all their children, whether they go to church schools or government schools or whatever. The important thing is that the kids get educated. Ideology shouldn't enter into the equation.
I have expanded the thread title to something more truthful and less provocative.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Israel Education Ministry funds private schools
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 15 - 01:18 PM

What do you think about this Greg F?

"Brunei Teachers to Face Punishment, Prison for Exposing Muslim Children to Christianity Even in Christian Schools"

CP

Subject: RE: BS:Israel Education Ministry funds private schools
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 May 15 - 01:25 PM

Let's have a quote from the article in question:

Under a longstanding arrangement, Christian schools and other private schools that manage their own affairs receive only partial government funding, with the remainder of their budgets covered by either donations or tuition. The government funds cover roughly three-quarters of private schools' standard costs, but it has been cutting back on other supplementary funding.

The protesting Christian schools say this public funding has been systematically cut in recent years to their elementary schools. To compensate, schools raised tuition fees — a burden for the Arab community whose average income is generally lower than the national average....

The Christian schools' fight reflects a wider battle being waged by other private schools — which have the status of being "recognized but unofficial." According to the Education Ministry, there are a total of 277 elementary schools with this status. Christian administrators say their 47 church-run elementary schools are affected by the budget crisis.

These schools are all facing the same budget cuts that the Christian private schools are, said Amnon De Hartog, a lawyer representing one of 23 private schools — mostly Jewish religious schools — that are petitioning Israel's Supreme Court against the recent budget cuts.

They say the cuts are unfair because Israel fully funds two large ultra-Orthodox Jewish private school networks — preferential treatment enshrined into law years ago thanks to the great influence of ultra-Orthodox political parties.

Advocates for the Arab community in Israel say the situation of church-run schools is different from other private schools. Some 30,000 Arab students — about half of them Muslim and half of them Christian — study in about 50 church-run schools in the country. Many of the schools have operated for centuries.

"It's a major part of the Arabic education system," said Sawsan Zaher of Adalah, a legal center for Arab minority rights in Israel. "When you see they are not fully funded while religious ultra-Orthodox schools are fully funded, of course you have discrimination, even if you have the law that enables that."

So, there are 50 church-run schools funded by tax dollars in Israel. The educate some 30,000 students, half of them Muslim and half Christian. They have a reputation for academic excellence. They are facing funding cuts, as are some private Jewish schools.

Because of the unusual power the ultra-Orthodox hold in Israel, the ultra-Orthodox schools have not faced similar cuts.

So, Greg F., what do you have to say about all this?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 15 - 02:40 PM

Well, Joe, what I have to say is:

1. I posted it for people to READ in its entirety (so good job, Joe! You read it!) rather than cutting and pasting a long screed - which, by the way would violate Mudcat "1-screen" rules) and for people to comment on (good job again, Joe! You commented on it!)

2.This is every bit as much of an example of "Christian persecution" as 90% of the previous nonsense posted here regarding "The War On Christianity" supposedly sweeping the globe.

3. Here's another quote from the article, Joe (emphasis mine):

Private Christian schools are among Israel's highest ranked educational institutions, established by churches in the Holy Land hundreds of years ago — long before Israel's own creation. But school administrators are accusing Israel of slashing their funding as a pressure tactic to get them join the Israeli public school system — a move they say would interfere with the schools' Christian values and high academic achievements.

They are also complaining of discrimination, since as Israel moves to cut money to Christian schools it continues to fully fund large private school networks that cater to ultra-Orthodox Jews.

4. "Doesn't mean a whole lot" Joe? It apparently means a whole lot to the folks that are protesting. Or don't thay count in your book?

Take a deep breath & get off your high horse.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 15 - 02:42 PM

Oh, and by the way, Joe, was it REALLY necessary to change the title of the thread? If so, why weren't all the previous threads' titles about "Christian Persecution" changed?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 15 - 04:00 PM

Schools have no business proclaiming themselves faith schools and expecting state funding. I don't care what state and what religion. If you want to set up a faith school you should stand on your own two feet one hundred percent. I could get even more worked up and declare that faith schools should be disallowed by any right-thinking nation. Religious instruction is anti-education because it teaches uncritical thinking, the very antithesis of the word education. I do think that there is such a thing as religion education. All children should be taught about the role of religion, past and present, in the world. But they should be taught it sitting up, not on their knees and with their hands joined.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 15 - 04:40 PM

Schools have no business proclaiming themselves faith schools and expecting state funding.

Good thing Israel isn't a theocracy, eh Steve?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 May 15 - 04:49 PM

anyone would think that if a kid goes to a faith school that he leaves his brains at the door, if you read steves judgment !. this school apparently has a very good record academically, so supporting it is hardly wasted money. if this were in the uk ,the critics would say it was because of selection of students from well favoured backgrounds. not a charge that seems to apply here , it seems.   every school has some sort of worldview. when Gove was min of education, I seem to remember he made it illegal to question a certain dogma. the kids apparently can leave their brains behind sometimes, rather than be able to decide themselves between competing explanations.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 15 - 04:58 PM

if a kid goes to a faith school that he leaves his brains at the door

and in many cases, studies have proven this to be absolutely true, especially at the fundagelical end of the spectrum of whatever religious persuasion you care to choose...

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 15 - 05:32 PM

Schools are about promoting well-rounded, well-balanced young people who have the skills to think critically and not believe anything they are told unless evidence is presented to them. For religious instruction, you do indeed need to leave your brain at the classroom/chapel door, if not at the school entrance.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 May 15 - 06:06 PM

Seems to me that since the State of Israel is so clearly dominated by Judaism, it would only make sense to allow Christians and Muslims to have their own schools, supported by taxpayer money. And note that these schools are generally half Christian-half Muslim.

And Steve, regarding your statement: Religious instruction is anti-education because it teaches uncritical thinking, the very antithesis of the word education - it ain't necessarily so. The Catholic seminary I attended stressed critical thinking, not indoctrination. Critical thinking is a primary emphasis in Jesuit schools. And many other religious schools strive to teach their students to think deep and to consider all possibilities.

You and some others seem to see only a world of ideology and propaganda, so you think that everyone is as mind-controlled as you are. It's not like that in real life, even among religious people.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 15 - 06:26 PM

The fact that Israel funds faith schools is a shining example of it's inclusivity despite Greg F's attempt to use it to once again bash Israel. I guess he has been missing the Israel bashing threads which seem to be one of his main preoccupations.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 15 - 06:28 PM

Well I taught in a Catholic school for six years and a Church of England one for eleven, and all the children in both were subjected to frequent services and assemblies in which they were forced to chant prayers and sing hymns. Free thinking was not encouraged at these events. What happens in your seminaries, which, I would point out, occurs within a tight ringfence of assumed belief, is not a reflection of what happens in ordinary faith schools. I do have experience, you know. Religious instruction is not the same as education in religion. The key difference is the word "education".

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 15 - 06:57 PM

I think Joe's just having a bad day, Steve, if the PM I just recieved is any indication. This too shall pass. He'll probably be his old self tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 15 - 06:58 PM

Encouraging free thinking at prayer and hymn sing? Do tell us how that would work.

I attended Catholic school for eleven years one year in a juniorate of the Christian Brothers. I also attended a Jesuit College. I am an atheist and a freethinker. I was taught well.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 15 - 07:19 PM

I think I was making the point that good education should not include enforced worship. I'll debate what good education should entail any day. Your example is but one such. Mine is just another. Very many people who are given religious instruction end up being ardent believers. Worth remembering.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 15 - 07:42 PM

You and some others seem to see only a world of ideology and propaganda, so you think that everyone is as mind-controlled as you are.

Well This is my fifth post to this thread. I'm aware of how prickly some people get when threads are on religious topics and, so far, I've strained every sinew in this one to be direct yet address the issue. But I still get this, and from a moderator/ex-moderator to boot. Nothing that I've I've posted in this thread is propaganda and all of it is measured. If you feel challenged by it, great. Let's argue. But this kind of response deserves to better then that K**th expression consisting of two little words that indicates that you do not win. And my mind's my own, thank you, and, what's more, it's unfettered by religion. Yes, unfettered. Or uncontrolled if you like.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 15 - 07:44 PM

Blimey, bad reviewing there. You get my drift...

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 May 15 - 07:59 PM

"Seems to me that since the State of Israel is so clearly dominated by Judaism, it would only make sense to allow Christians and Muslims to have their own schools2
Or alternatively, remove the religious aspect of all schools and stop poisoning the minds with fairytales taught as fact
Maybe that way, they won't end up tearing each others heads off because they worship the wrong God, like their parents are doing
Now that's a thought!!
But then again, how would they explain that God bequeathed Palestine to the Jews, as has recently been claimed by an Israeli politician
And the music goers round and round.......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 15 - 08:07 PM

Yes, it wouldn't make any sense at all. Agreed. Faith schools are nothing more than the frank manifestation of organised religion's need to keep recruiting from a captive flock and to control young minds. In view of what you said, somewhat ironic, eh, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 May 15 - 08:20 PM

Steve Shaw says: forced to chant prayers and sing hymns....and...good education should not include enforced worship.


Well, shucks, Steve. I had no idea that worship services and hymn singing were so harmful. I kinda enjoyed them.

Of course, one might expect worship services at a "faith-based" school. No doubt, many attended religious schools and decided they didn't like worship services and never attended again once they finished school. But at least they were exposed to such things and then were able to make a choice. I suppose your students were also subjected to the torture of Algebra? How is a worship service any worse torture than Algebra? For those of us who liked music, the hymns and chanting were very enjoyable - even if we didn't believe all the words.

And I liked the Algebra, too.

As for freedom of thought, we had lots of rich, no-holds-barred discussions in the seminary. I think we were quite open about considering all points of view. I went through a period during my seminary years when I considered myself to be an atheist, and I wasn't kicked out.

"Critical thinking" does not necessarily require espousing an atheist ideology, despite what some Mudcatters seem to think. It means being open to various opinions, and being open to questioning one's own opinions.

If you are not able to set your own opinions aside and see life through the eyes of a Muslim or a Buddhist or a Jew or a Wiccan or an Evangelical Christian, then I wonder if you are capable of "critical thought." Critical thought is not the ability to refute all viewpoints other than one's own. Critical thought requires being open to all possibilities and all perspectives, and it is clear that some of our Mudcat absolutists are not capable of that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 15 - 08:22 PM

The important thing is that the kids get educated.

Absolutely, Joe.

Ideology shouldn't enter into the equation.

Nor should religion.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 May 15 - 08:31 PM

Greg, I listen as often as I can to a radio program called All Things Considered. Perhaps you do, too.

Shouldn't religious thought from all creeds and cultures be considered? Thought is quite different from ideology. Thought is open to alternatives. And despite what you may think, most religious traditions consider a wide range of alternatives.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 May 15 - 08:53 PM

Critical thinking requires no ideology getting in the way at all. I do not enjoy a thing called an atheist ideology, Joe. As I have said here God knows how many times, I don't know whether there's a God or not. I can't build any sort of ideology on that. I've also said that I celebrate the right of everyone to enjoy whatever beliefs they want to. I've expressed heartfelt sympathy for both the Jews in Israel living in insecurity and for the Muslims in Gaza living in impoverished siege. I've attacked the Catholic Church vehemently (including today, on another thread) for its history of antisemitism and acquiescence In the mistreatment of Jews before and during the Second World War. I've studied parts of the Bible in response to pete (as well as parts of it unprovoked). I've demurred out loud from attacking the Church in general over the sins of a minority of its priests. I've scolded those who you'd think were my allies for blaming war on religion. I've respected the good work of scientists who happen to have religious faith. All these things are in threads in this forum, posted by me, usually many times over. If you think that these are evidence that I refute all viewpoints other than my own, then you're not reading my posts properly.

You appear to have a habit of becoming very prickly and defensive whenever religion comes up. Without wishing to judge you, I would say that, in the past, I've noticed that people who get that way are usually insecure. If you feel secure in your beliefs you can laugh me off in a heartbeat. Can't you?

Incidentally, your comparison of religion in school with algebra is invidious in the extreme, and I think you know it. Algebra, hard though it can be, is a rather elegant, precise and ultimately truthful way of explaining the world. Religion is a way of trying to explain the world with an impossible notion that can never be shown to be true, no matter how many times you force the kids to chant the prayers that assume it is. The only choice you'll admit to is the choice of dropping the whole thing once the kids leave school. That leaves anything up to eighteen years or so in which choice is denied. Some education that is.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 15 - 09:01 PM

Yup. Listen regularly on the local PBS station.



Absolutely. Considered, explored, and discussed, critically examined - in the proper forum. However, religious thought and religious dogma are hardly the same - the latter is often indistinguishable from ideology.

And children should not be indoctrinated with religious dogma masquerading as "education", particularly at public expense.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 May 15 - 09:03 PM

Ooops- Steve's post got in ahead of mine while I was typing & he does a much better job than I did.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 May 15 - 09:32 PM

Steve Shaw says: You appear to have a habit of becoming very prickly and defensive whenever religion comes up. Without wishing to judge you, I would say that, in the past, I've noticed that people who get that way are usually insecure. If you feel secure in your beliefs you can laugh me off in a heartbeat. Can't you?

Sorry, Steve, but you're just not understanding me. You seem to be understanding religious thought, or any kind of thought, only within the context of ideology.

Doctrine is a necessary thing, very much like Algebra. It gives the outline of the thinking of a particular religious denomination. It is not faith, but it can be the context for faith. You study it, consider it, retain what is useful to you, and forget the rest. It is a systematic presentation of a system/school of thought - but it is not thought itself. I think it is worthwhile for students to be exposed to as many systems of thought as possible, including a wide variety of religious thought. As a person becomes capable of thinking for himself, then that person should develop his or her own system of thinking - learning from the many systems of thought presented to the student through education.

These private schools in Israel seem to be ideal. Since they provide an excellent education to both Muslim and Christian students in a country dominated by Jews, they must be exposed to all three traditions (traditions, not ideologies). As such, they offer hope for developing a mutual understanding among these three traditions that have so many differences and yet so much in common.

I'm sure that government-owned schools in Israel are dominated by Judaism, no matter how hard they try to be open-minded. It would seem that the privately-operated schools must be preserved, to hold out some hope of communication and harmony among Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Now, I admit that most Jews I know of in Israel are atheists, so that complicates my argument a bit.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 15 - 03:49 AM

" You appear to have a habit of becoming very prickly and defensive whenever religion comes up. Without wishing to judge you, I would say that, in the past, I've noticed that people who get that way are usually insecure. If you feel secure in your beliefs you can laugh me off in a heartbeat. Can't you?"

How ironic is that post from Steve....exactly the tactics they used to try to silence me!! :0)

This is exactly what I mean when I accuse them of being ideologically driven.

I suppose you and your little gang never get "prickly" Steve?
You get very prickly indeed ...more than prickly, obscenely abusive.
What does that say about the security of YOUR position?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 May 15 - 04:11 AM

Jesuit maxim "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 15 - 05:04 AM

"Doctrine is a necessary thing, very much like Algebra" [sic

Doctrine is a set of tenets laid down by people to shore up a belief system. Algebra is how the world works, an unchanging set of truths that we have to tease out with our poor human brains. Your equation of these two entirely different things is a valiant yet ultimately risible attempt to lend the faith behind your doctrine a bit more legitimacy. You're being very unfair to algebra but algebra cares not a jot. Neither do I much care for your unfair characterisation of my thinking, thank you. Ultimately, I listen to everybody's opinion, think about it and try to decide what I glean from it. Almost all my posts here are thought-out replies to what other people have said. Tough if you don't like my opinions and I don't need you to give me credit for them. I don't have doctrines to keep to keep me on track, like you do. At the end of the day you have you comfort blanket of faith to keep you warm. There is simply no telling you that faith schools are unfair in principle, both to its pupils and to those outside who have to put up with the secular state schools depleted of good pupils as a result. Note, "in principle". All you can talk about is how fantastic you see the faith schools as being. Well there are millions of people of no faith who deserve just as much cosseting as those in faith schools who don't get it. And, frankly, neither deserve the proselytising and enforced worship the latter inflict, that you simply can't bring yourself to admit are nothing to do with education. Maybe you believe in the trickle-down effect provided by these amazing schools. Well some of us don't, seeing that as an argument for elitism.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 15 - 07:46 AM

To their pupils. Grr. And someone chopped off my square bracket. Painful.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 May 15 - 06:31 PM

methinks that steve does not recognize his own belief system, albeit not structured as precisely as, say, the apostles creed, or the Westminster confession. he none the less follows a doctrine that says that a creator is not needed to explain creation [or whatever term an atheist might use ] without being able to back up such a belief with evidence. and since this mindset is taught in schools as though it were an unassailable fact, the critical thinking of students is hampered. I am however encouraged that steve can point to impartial posts thoroughly thought out by him. I wish I could recall them, but I expect there are some. he is very prolific after all.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 May 15 - 08:39 PM

Say goodnight to the folks, Gracie...

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 May 15 - 10:34 PM

Jesuit maxim "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"
Jim Carroll

Yep, and what the Jesuits try very hard to do, is to teach young men to think for themselves.

Maybe that's why the Jesuits were suppressed by the Catholic Church from 1750-1773, and maybe that's why our current Jesuit pope is so well-received..

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 15 - 08:24 AM

"Yep, and what the Jesuits try very hard to do, is to teach young men to think for themselves."
Can't speak for the U.S. Joe, but over here the Jesuits are noted for their violent methods of teaching - the two seem contradictory to me.
Would highly recommend Patrick Galvin's 'Raggy Boy' trilogy.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 30 May 15 - 11:44 AM

I notice a load of Jews in London have told their women they cannot drive their kids to school because driving isn't modest.

Remind me again, what is the purpose of religion? What possible place can it have for our children other than to abuse them, fuck them up for life and give you a warped view of the world.

The more you ignore superstitious nonsense, the sooner it fades away. If it had any balls, I'd be facing a lightning strike right now.




No?

Must be bollocks after all.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 15 - 02:12 PM

Jim, I thought the "Raggy Boys" school was taught by the Irish Christian Brothers (not the brandy-making Christian Brothers of France & U.S.). The Jesuits have had a reputation for high academic standards. If sure there were brutal teachers in every religious order in my parents' time - strictness was considered a virtue, and the difference between strictness and brutality can be very hard to detect.
There's no doubt that the Christian Brothers of Ireland (and Canada) had a reputation for brutality. (Wikipedia)

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 May 15 - 03:44 PM

"school was taught by the Irish Christian Brothers "
Sorry Joe - you may very well be right, if so thanks for the correction.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 15 - 04:01 PM

"Jim Carroll - 29 May 15 - 04:11 AM

Jesuit maxim "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"
Jim Carroll

Well f''k me Jim I never knew that Aristotle was a Jesuit (That quote after all is his)

Aristotle: 384 - 322 BC
Jesuits: Formed 1540 AD

Care to tell us exactly where you actually touch reality in your life - or is reality a complete and utter foreign land to you?.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 15 - 05:09 PM

Google it, Billyboy. Jim has it right. You really ought to do some checking before you do your kneejerk extracting of the Michael.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 15 - 05:21 PM

Standard grade T-Bird foaming at the mouth. Nothin' new here folks, move along.....

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 15 - 05:31 PM

My Oxford Dictionary of Quaotations has it as

Give me a child for the first seven years, and you may do what you like with him afterwards.

Attributed as a Jesuit maxim, in Lean's Collectanea, vol. 3 (1903)

And another quote:

Give me a girl at an impressionable age, and she is mine for life.

Muriel Spark, The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie (1961).

Whatever the case, various versions of the phrase have been used both by those who praise and those who damn the Jesuits. In days before Catholics once again became fair game for prejudice, I heard the phrase used to promote the value of education. My experience with Jesuits has been very positive. I'm sure others have had negative experiences. Depends upon which Jesuit you're talking about. Teilhard de Chardin and Dan Berrigan were two good ones (Berrigan still is, and I think Jesuit Pope Francis has done well).

I didn't find a similar phrase from Aristotle, but it's possible something like that would come from an old Greek guy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 May 15 - 05:47 PM

In days before Catholics once again became fair game for prejudice,

When were they NOT fair game, Joe? But take heart, the real foaming-at-the-mouth idiot bigots are currently primarily after Islam.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 May 15 - 06:25 PM

I can't say about attitudes in Europe, but Catholics were quite acceptable in the United States from 1960 until Americans forgot about Jackie Kennedy in about 1995.

Jesuits remain popular and trusted in the United States, mostly because their schools have good basketball teams. Note, however, that the Jesuits closed down their University of San Francisco basketball team because of a cheating scandal...

Among ultraconservative Catholics, the Jesuit order is considered to be a Haven for Heretics. They never dreamed that a Jesuit could be elected Pope, and they're still quite upset about the last papal election. Interestingly, they're not as certain as they used to be about demanding "absolute obedience to the Pope."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 15 - 06:52 PM

Greg F has no qualms about criticizing Christianity or Catholicism but labels those who do the same about Islam as bigots. Why is that do you think?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 15 - 07:10 PM

No he doesn't. It's just that you don't appear to be able to read properly.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 15 - 07:13 PM

Teilhard, in spite of his accommodation with evolution, is not well regarded in the scientific community. The latter generally regards mavericks with not a little suspicion.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:02 AM

Teilhard participated in some discoveries that turned out not to be discoveries - mistaken identification of human remains as being far older than they actually were. Teilhard and others mistakenly thought they had found a "missing link." So, as a scientist, Teilhard may not have been at the forefront.

But he was one of the first to reconcile theology with modern paleontology. That's a big thing for us progressive religious people. I suppose it doesn't mean much to atheists who deny the possibility of religious thought, but we religious folks seek to look into the meaning and significance of evolution.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:45 AM

Steve Shaw, having lost his cool (how unusual), says:

There is simply no telling you that faith schools are unfair in principle, both to its pupils and to those outside who have to put up with the secular state schools depleted of good pupils as a result.

...and I can't help but wonder how these Christian and Muslim Arab students would fare in Israeli public schools.

The atheist ideology that you claim not to espouse, dictates that religious education is harmful for children - apparently because it violates your "principle."

In the United States, Catholic and Episcopalian and Lutheran schools provide education to people of various and no religious denominations, and the students quite often think they have received a superior education - especially students in church-sponsored inner city schools that seek to pull students out of the cycle of poverty. I gather from a number of sources that this is what the religious schools in Israel are trying to do.

Now, it's very true that there are religious schools that take a more ideological approach, but I'm not sure that even that is as bad for students as one might think.

I don't believe that religious zombies are created by religious schools. I think that for the most part, zombies are born, not made - although television and other addictions can help a zombie child along his path to zombiedom. If a child is born into a zombie environment, he or she is quite likely to grow up a zombie. If he's given a religious education, he'll grow up to be a religious zombie. If given an anti-religious education, he'll grow up to be an anti-religious zombie. Sometimes I think we have a few of those around here....

-JoeOffer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 15 - 01:11 AM

Steve does have a point that private schools can deplete state-supported schools of good students. That's a legitimate problem that must be dealt with - perhaps by providing better state-supported schools? But in this case in Israel, the private schools serve to give a superior education to minority students who otherwise would get little or no education.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 15 - 01:45 AM

This is just a row about funding, not persecution.
Persecution drives people out.
That is what is happening to Christians all around Israel, but not in it.
(Unless you count West Bank as Israel.)

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 15 - 04:06 AM

"I think that for the most part, zombies are born, not made "
Down the centuries religion has been taught as spiritual blackmail - if you don't believe, you are a sinner and will suffer eternal damnation - say this is not the case if I am wrong.
In Catholic communities, right up to comparatively recently, religion has been driven into children from birth, the methods used include physical violence in the form of beating, humiliation (including that of young children) and ostracisation, encouraged and sometimes enforced by the Clergy - feel free to challenge this also, if it is not a fact.
It is contemptible to ignore this fact and blame "zombies" for being zombies.
Despite the fact that large numbers of the clergy have been found to have sexually abused children in their care over a long period of time, at least, throughout the 20th century, and the Church has colluded in those crimes by covering them up and moving the culprits on to other parishes when their crimes became too obvious, enabling them to continue their abuse, the church is fighting tooth and nail to continue to have access to children, physically and mentally.
When you claim that Catholics have recently become 'open season' - you are implicating every believer in the crimes of the church, just as those who defend crimes by claiming they are "Jewish", and those criticising them are "Antisemitic".
Just as a great many critics of Israel's policy are Jewish, the vast majority of critics of the Catholic church's behaviour are Catholics.
If things carry on the way they are, that will no longer be the case - you will have alienated believers from their religion.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:09 AM

Well I'm glad you acknowledge that issue at least. It certainly happens here. Perhaps if the money ploughed by taxpayers into faith schools went to normal schools instead, leaving those who insist on having a school that indoctrinates their kids to finance it themselves, the state sector would be a damn sight better off. Incidentally, I for one have never claimed that faith schools produce religious zombies, though they are actually pretty good at producing atheists. Finally, I note with amusement your new line of attack, "Steve disagrees with Joe therefore he's lost his cool". You'll never see the day, old chap. :-)

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:24 AM

Whatever the meaning of evolution Joe, I doubt you'll find it in the huge book of fairy tales.

You see that's the problem with reconciling superstition with science. The further religious people try to climb the tree of science the more their arse is showing. You can't fill in the gaps with "God did it."

"When Worlds Collide" was teaching text up till recently in a church school in Durham till the inspectors found out. It isn't just priests that children need protecting from...

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 15 - 10:37 AM

Unless you count West Bank as Israel.

Israel does. Plus a great deal more terriory.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 10:51 AM

Israel does.

As it should.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:00 AM

"As it should."
'Course it should - haven't we just been told by a newly appointed minister that the area was "bequeathed to the Jews by God"? - can't go higher than that.
HIS MASTER'S VOICE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:28 AM

Actually it was "bequeathed" by the British government who reclaimed it from the Ottoman Turks. But go ahead and indulge your contempt, it looks good on you.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:51 AM

What a pathetic piece of shit this thread is. Another evangelical atheist trying to preach their faith. And all the other evangelical atheists bow their heads. How about a thread of something interesting for a change or does that not fit your agenda

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:21 PM

And you know my faith Greg and the faith of the little amish guy who calls you his friend also and you want to mock us both

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:30 PM

On the contrary - any preaching comes from the God Botherers - those of us who care about human rights have just made our views known about the Church (an all-male celibate sect in Irland) interfering in our lives.
If this doesn't interest you, feel free not to take part.
A leading churchman at a religious conference has just announced that "Ireland has gone beyond Paganism and is disobeying the will of God".
Sound reasonable to you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:45 PM

WELL JOE, don't often have much agreement with musket , but imo theistic evolution is syncretistic accommodation. so, joe, what is the meaning of evolution ?    I thought the meaning of evolution is that there is no meaning !. perhaps you might like to clarify ?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 15 - 01:06 PM

Now, Dan, hold on a minute - I have never before and I am not now mocking you or Mahlon. I come from a long line of Quakers going back 330 years in what's now the U.S.

Why do you think I refer to those I DO occasionally mock - and well they deserve it - as "fundagelicals" and/or "Christians"[sic]and/or creationists?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 15 - 02:41 PM

I am just still reeling at the loss of art thieme. He was a great friend and my faith helps me take the punch. Sorry I blew up at you.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 15 - 05:45 PM

No problem, Dan- and my condolences. Take care, bud.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:06 PM

Evangelical atheists?

The mind boggles..

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:16 PM

Evangelizing atheists is what I believe Dan may have had in mind.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:34 PM

Correct guest voice text screws everything up

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 15 - 10:21 PM

Jim Carroll says: Down the centuries religion has been taught as spiritual blackmail - if you don't believe, you are a sinner and will suffer eternal damnation - say this is not the case if I am wrong.
In Catholic communities, right up to comparatively recently, religion has been driven into children from birth, the methods used include physical violence in the form of beating, humiliation (including that of young children) and ostracisation, encouraged and sometimes enforced by the Clergy - feel free to challenge this also, if it is not a fact.
It is contemptible to ignore this fact and blame "zombies" for being zombies.

What you say is true, Jim...for a small but significant percentage of people brought up with a religious upbringing. And that group is of concern to me. Most people brought up with religion are disgustingly normal, and found a religious upbringing to be nothing akin to the torture you and some others describe.

But you're right that some religious households are abusive, unhealthy environments for raising children. But it it because they're religious, or because abusive people misuse religion as a tool of abuse? Even atheists abuse children, you know - in about the same proportion as religious people.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:04 PM

One only has to read one of these threads Joe to see what you say is true. I see no people of faith starting these slug fests. But I guess some people get off on picking fights with others kinda pathetic I think

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 02:12 AM

I have managed to avoid this thread until now. I understand why.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 02:26 AM

Jim Carroll says: A leading churchman at a religious conference has just announced that "Ireland has gone beyond Paganism and is disobeying the will of God".

That would be Cardinal Burke, who has been sabre-rattling and making hints of insurrection ever since Pope Francis was elected. He is reputed to wear the fanciest clothes in the Vatican, out-dressing most recent popes. He recently made news by being demoted by the pope to a sinecure position as "patron" of the Knights of Malta, an organization of rich, conservative, old guys.

Within the Catholic Church, Cardinal Burke is generally considered to be a buffoon, but he is a darling of the ultraconservatives.

Not a good person to quote as an example of mainstream Catholicism.

But yes, we have a number of buffoons. I saw one up on the altar this morning. I'm sure glad he's moved to Colorado and just back to visit relatives..

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:06 AM

The problem is Joe, the buffoons say that they represent the aims of their club and you say you can pick and choose the rules.

Are they misrepresenting when clearly following the rule book or are you diluting the message?

To the rest of society, Jim seems fairly "on the ball" with this one.

You reckon the cardinal referred to doesn't speak for Catholics. Do you speak for them? If there are myriad messages, why bother with a collective club? You say that "atheists" this that and the other in equal numbers. What are "atheists" being told as to their moral compass? Do you include those who are neither theists or atheists? The vast majority of western people don't deny theism (the a in atheist) but frankly haven't bothered considering it in the first place.

Clerical abuse. Pick out the "atheists" in that one.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:14 AM

I did Google" it Shaw and found this:

Quotes from "The Philosophy of Aristotle"

Straight into attack mode eh Greg - typical and behaviour that has ruined this forum.

The statement given by Jim Carroll was:
" "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man""

This is a quote from Aristotle and it refers to how important early childhood influences are the the development of character. It is mistakenly attributed to the Jesuits.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:30 AM

"Within the Catholic Church, Cardinal Burke is generally considered to be a buffoon,"
At the same conference the Vatican quote that the result of the referendum was "a defeat for mankind", played a prominent part - Burke is not just a bad apple Joe, but representative of much of what the barrel contains - the Church is full of Burkes (with a small or a big 'B'.
The church has yet to come to terms with some of the major issues that effect our society - contraception, divorce, pregnancy termination, homosexuality..... over all of which, it has been dragged kicking and screaming into the latter half of the twentieth century - and has yet to move further (and many churchmen haven't even reached that far).
Just as with clerical sex abuse, to pin the blame on a wayward few is to ignore the problems of the church, which extend far beyond the issues themselves and have their roots deep into the question of the authority of the church in relation to temporal life.
I have no argument whatever with what people believe - as long as they arrive at those beliefs of their own free will
It is my opinion that this is not the case, following your "zombie" remark, it appears to be yours that you do
Incidentally, if the zombie stories are examined, no zombie is born such, but becomes one by being infected from outside.
I have always argued that the activities of the church must be confined to spiritual guidance sought voluntarily by sentient human beings - any influence it has should be limited to that, under careful supervision, so that it can never be abused again.
If what has been exposed to have happened in the church, had taken place in our schools, it would have led to a mass restructuring of our education system.
That restructuring must take place with how religion is maintained, if it is to be, and how it is passed on.
The same has to apply with the political and social influence that the church has had.
Sure, it is inevitable that people's religions affect how they view life in general, fine.
A little different from the power the church has attained, wielded and abused down the centuries.
The greatest threat to human life and well-being today arises from global religious disputes - certainly not a new phenomenon - the toxic mix of politics, power and religion has always been with us.
Some people here seem fine with that situation as long as it is their religion at the top of the toxic heap - very much a part of what these arguments and shouting matches are about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:41 AM

So, Musket, are you saying that there are no atheists who abuse children? I'm sure the percentage is about the same, between clerics and atheists. So, how can an atheist pass judgment on all Catholics or all clerics because of a minority who are undeniably guilty of abuse?

I don't pretend to speak for the Catholic Church, though the recently-demoted Cardinal Burke seems to think himself more Catholic than the Pope. I can, however, speak from many years of education and experience - and I can document what I say.

Whatever the case, it's unfair to pick out the idiot in a group and then name him as representative of the group as a whole. Where's your logic there? If the guy is talking like an idiot, wouldn't it be better to look to somebody more credible, somebody who is closer to the issue, like the Archbishop of Dublin?

How can you say that Burke is "clearly following the rule book"? Because he wears fancy clothes? And for that matter, how can you say credibly that Burke's legalistic, judgmental interpretation is the way the rules are to be read? And where does it say that every jot and tittle of "the rules" must be followed to the letter by every Catholic? That's the absolutist in you speaking, Musket - the little voice who believes that everybody must live by ideology, because ideology is the only thing you can understand.

Tell me this: whose perspective is closer to that of Pope Francis? - mine, or Burke's?

Of course, Burke was more in line with Benedict and John Paul than I was - but that was another day. Seems to me, then, that there might be room for diversity and a variety of perspectives within the Catholic Church. Maybe we don't all have to think like hateful people like Burke.

But yeah, the right-wing buffoons are a problem, because they won't shut up and because they have a lot of money behind them. So, people listen to them because people listen to the money. Aren't you smart enough not to be taken in by their charade?

Musket: You say that "atheists" this that and the other in equal numbers. You wanna give me an example of that? I am fully aware of the wide range of opinion among atheists. What makes you think that a wide range of opinion among Catholics is impossible?

But what I call "atheist ideologues" are atheists who can see no validity in any school of thought other than their own. Those atheists have a lot in common with each other - and with the most fundamentalist of religious people. Is that what you are - an ideologue who cannot accept diversity of thought?

Your view of Catholicism is narrow, shallow, and purely ideological. That leads me to conclude that your own thinking must be narrow, shallow, and purely ideological. Tolerance and understanding and respect, do not appear to be part of your vocabulary.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:00 AM

I can't argue with you, Jim Carroll and Musket. I completely agree what we have more idiots in the Catholic Church than we deserve to have. Somehow, I've been able to make it through 66 years as a Catholic without them being able to eject me from my church. I admit that there have times when I was afraid that the idiots would prevail, just as I have often been afraid that the idiots would prevail in the government of my country. and yes, there are times I thought I should give up hope for both my country and my church.

There are many faults within the Catholic Church, many issues that have not yet been resolved. You know, I guess that means that the Catholic Church is just like Real Life. What would life be, if there were no problems to be resolved, no issues to discuss?

But just what rational defense do you have for picking the recently demoted Cardinal Burke as representative of the Catholic Church? Certainly, you must have some logic to defend your choice of Burke the Buffoon as more representative of the Catholic Church than say, Pope Francis?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:09 AM

Teribus, I'd like to think the Jesuits got their quote from Aristotle, and it certainly does sound Aristotelian in nature. But the Website you cited does not cite chapter and verse. On top of that, it implies that the quote comes from a book written by Aristotle titled The Philosophy of Aristotle. Aristotle wrote no book with that title.

The most credible information I found comes from the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, which calls the slogan a "Jesuit maxim." Others attribute it to St. Ignatius Loyola or St. Francis Xavier, but there is nothing credible to verify these attributions.

If I'm to believe it comes from Aristotle, I need to see chapter and verse. This page (click) makes a good attempt at studying the origin of the quotation, but it's inconclusive.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:53 AM

"But just what rational defense do you have for picking the recently demoted Cardinal Burke as representative of the Catholic Church"
Because his statement echoes tat of any more churchman including the one supported by the Vatican - that the result of the referendum was a defeat for humanity.
When the Archbishop of Dublin said he believed the Catholic Church needed to take "a reality check", I have little doubt he referred to the future of the Catholic Church rather than that of homosexuals - a statement of self-interest.
As a philosophy, Christianity has much to offer (when it is not being ignored or distorted by those who claim it as their doctrine) - it is the organised church which has distorted and abused it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 07:07 AM

"it implies that the quote comes from a book written by Aristotle titled The Philosophy of Aristotle. Aristotle wrote no book with that title."

Sorry Joe but no it does not, the information clearly given is that the quote is included in a book entitled "The Philosophy of Artistotle" a selection of philosophical writings and observations made by Aristotle translated and compiled by J.L.Creed and A.E.Wardman, with introduction and commentary by Renford Bamborough - no inference at all that Aristotle wrote any book entitled "The Philosophy of Aristotle".

Creed and Wardman are Classics Scholars and Professors while Bamborough was a British Philosopher and a Fellow of St. John's College Cambridge, no doubt you could possibly come up with some sort of explanation why these three academics decided to "float in" a line attributed to the Jesuits of the 16th Century and attempt to pass it off as one of Aristotle's own whilst knowing full well that their work and their commentaries would be subject to close and detailed "peer review" - I know that I cannot.

Interesting that you require chapter and verse to support any claim that the quote is Aristotle's yet you seem to accept unverified that it comes from either Ignatius Loyola of Francis Xavier.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 07:57 AM

Well said Joe Offer: 01 Jun 15 - 03:41 AM

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 08:46 AM

Strike two, T-Bird.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 11:38 AM

I got as far as "you are saying Musket that atheists don't abuse children" in your first sentence and didn't bother getting any further. I know I franchised Musket out to two mates but I doubt any of us, all of whom have been professionally involved with child protection and safeguarding would be saying that. Of course, some people might read your saying we said it without having read what we did put. Is that the idea? You've been getting lessons from Terribulus and Keith A Hole of Hertford if that's the case.

If you wish to act like a grown up Joe, start with statements that exhibit mature comment.

Like I said. If someone says a catholic standpoint is x, then I either expect the Pope's many managers and team leaders to put out a correction and ask the person to stop saying it or the catholic view really is x and Joe is out of tune. Is the Vatican spokesman who called the Irish vote a sad day for humanity still in a job? (The answer by the way is yes.)

If the Catholic Church has no consensus on an issue, it should stop people saying that it has.

ditto any club that thinks it has a mandate beyond its members.

Although you know, I think the Pope seems happy with the stance of the old bigots who organise his money making ventures for him.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 02:01 AM

Musket, what I said is: So, Musket, are you saying that there are no atheists who abuse children? I'm sure the percentage is about the same, between clerics and atheists. So, how can an atheist pass judgment on all Catholics or all clerics because of a minority who are undeniably guilty of abuse?

That, my friend, is a rhetorical question. The answer is obvious. Of course you wouldn't say there are no atheists who abuse children. And neither would I say that there are no Catholic priests who abuse children. So, it seems then that we are on level ground, and I have just as much right to speak as you.

---

Teribus, I would be very surprised to learn that the "give me the child..." phrase came from Ignatius Loyola or Francis Xavier. My Oxford Dictionary of Quotations says it is a "Jesuit maxim," and that is quoted in Lean's Collectanea, vol. 3 (1903). I know from personal experience that it is a Jesuit maxim, often referred to by Jesuits when they're trying to raise funds to support their schools.
But Lean's doesn't cite the source of the maxim. I said above that while an Aristotelian origin seems possible, I'd like to see chapter and verse - and preferably see the maxim in Greek.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 02:38 AM

" Of course you wouldn't say there are no atheists who abuse children."
There are no atheists who use their atheism to abuse children, and, as far as I can recollect, there are no atheist orgnisations who have used their influence and authority to cover up, and even facilitate the abuse of children - cant be said about priests and their Church
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:28 AM

Yes, Jim, if you're the one who makes the rules, I suppose you can set specifications. My point, however, is that we all have faults, and we all are associated one way or another with people who have horrible faults. Our own guilt, or our guilt by association, does not disqualify us from speaking.

For the most part, we're better off speaking logically and from the facts, and not from any authority we might claim. To attempt to refute somebody by saying he has no right to speak because he's guilty of something or associates with somebody who's guilty of something, is not a particularly convincing argument.

So, what was it we were talking about before you tried to discredit me because of my association with priests?

I forget.

Oh, yeah....it was something about a moral compass. I think morality is best determined by rational thought, not by the bleatings of conservative clerics. And I believe I am just as capable of rational thought, as the most atheistic of rationalists, or as the most rational of atheists. Playing games about who has moral authority is silly. If what I say makes sense, THAT has authority, no matter what guilt I might have to bear for the offenses of my priests..

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:45 AM

Speaking of rhetorical, are you saying anything said by someone articulating the stance of your church is to be taken with a pinch of salt should be verified with you first? (Phrased in a similar way to how you phrased one at me earlier.)

That's how it comes across Joe. You use the word "atheist" to mean some dark organised force working against superstition whereas the reality is a combination of indifference and seeing your leaders as medieval and increasingly irrelevant.

If religions didn't keep wishing to influence society at large they wouldn't come under so much scrutiny.

But they do

So they are.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:54 AM

"So, what was it we were talking about before you tried to discredit me because of my association with priests?"
No I do not Joe - I argue with what you say,
If there is any discredit, it is your attempting to shift the blame from the Church onto the failings of individuals.
Please do no make this a personal thing - it is not it is an attempt on my prt to understand the behaviour of the church and why people who apper to be caring and humane would want to efend that behaviour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 04:01 AM

Musket, I have no quarrel with those who hold no religious belief, or those who hold beliefs other than my own.

I do think I have a right to take issue with those who attack what they assume to be what I believe, and there are many of those here. It's not fair, especially since so many of you can't seem to be able to respond to what I had to say before you've first twisted my statements beyond recognition.

And then Musket says: are you saying anything said by someone articulating the stance of your church is to be taken with a pinch of salt should be verified with you first?

My ex-wife says I am compulsively honest. She didn't particularly like that trait in me. If I know something, I'll tell you the truth. If I don't know something, I'll tell you that I don't know. And when I tell you something, I assume you have the ability to check the facts I've given to assure yourself that I am correct.

I admire your tenacity in your attempt to defend the credibility of Cardinal Burke, but your efforts are futile. The man's an asshole.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:10 AM

Has anybody attempted to defend Cardinal Burke or is this another straw man of your own making - damned it#f I can find it
Burke maybe a burke, but he is representative of a large number of churchmen who feel it is their job to dictate the will of the people rather than accept it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:24 AM

Joe-

I'm honestly curious. I know nothing of this Cardinal Burke, but if he's as big an asshole as you say he is, why hasn't he been censured by the church hierarchy? They didn't seem to have a problem doing so with the Berrigan brothers.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:32 AM

He may be an asshole, I personally would call him an arsehole, but anyway.

But he is speaking for the Catholic Church. He says he is and the Vatican haven't issued a correction or removed him from a post where he speaks for them.

In fact, one of the roles of the Vatican is to speak for its members. If you must divorce Catholics from err.. Catholic sect, fine. But speaking as an owner of a brown settee.....

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 01:58 PM

I don't doubt that it is brown.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:43 PM

Yeah but it still smells sweeter than religious hypocricy.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:29 PM

Now, Musket, the main error in your reference to Cardinal Burke, is to assume that the individual speaks for the whole, that any old individual you dig up who wears fancy clothes must be representative of the entire Catholic Church. Even the pope does not represent the whole of Catholic thinking, although he has considerable authority - authority enough to demote Burke to the job of chaplain to a rich boys' club (which means that he has been removed from any position from which he can speak with authority, but he still hasn't shut up).

But you just can't view any diverse group of people and make sweeping judgments of the whole based on your observations of a few.

We Americans still have a very high opinion of Tony Blair, and view him to be the consummate English gentleman, intellectual, leader, and diplomat. We're sorry that he was in bed with George W. Bush like he was; but after all, it is proper to be tolerant of homosexuals these days, isn't it? It's largely because of Tony Blair that we generally have a high opinion of The British. We generally have no idea who served in your government since WWII other than Churchill and Blair; and we secretly believe that Britain is actually ruled by The Queen, and isn't she a nice old lady? And just like Cardinal Burke, she really looks cute when she's wearing those fancy clothes and the crown and jewels and all.

Now if you British knew that's what we Americans know of your government, why, you would probably actually scoff at us.

But we all know that Britain and the U.S. and the Catholic Church / Vatican are vastly diverse and complex, and that it is well-nigh impossible to make simplistic, all-encompassing praise and/or condemnation of any of them.

Or do we?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 09:09 PM

We Americans still have a very high opinion of Tony Blair

Speak for yourself, Joe - some of us U.S. folks know better.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 11:11 PM

Yup, it goes to show ya. Just as Greg says, you can't let the part speak for the whole...

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:41 AM

"you just can't view any diverse group of people and make sweeping judgments of the whole based on your observations of a few."

Very, very true Joe, however, on the BS section on this forum that is where we get into "Animal Farm" territory. You see the Musktwats feels free to put that tactic to use whenever they see fit, but others are castigated for doing so (even when they aren't).

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:45 AM

"We" are "tolerant" of homosexuals.

I wonder if "homosexuals" are tolerant of "we"?

In the equal society your religion seeks to cause division in, you don't need tolerance between trait identifiers, just tolerance between individuals.

I doubt "homosexuals" need your tolerance Joe, just respect as individuals.

Tony Blair is an interesting case. I see him as a weak war mongerer who thought he could moderate your President and ended up giving him international credibility for a time instead. For that he deserves the scorn he gets.

But I still have the photo of me shaking his hand at No.10. If I needed a cv, it would include my work advising at the cabinet office on governance in public office. I still get a bit of mileage out of describing how he was behind closed doors doing business.

You see, judging individuals on individual matters is important. One reason why I am so scathing of the sheep mentality aims of organised religion, giving people their collective view for the week from the pulpit and speaking to the media as the church.

If he wasn't wearing a fetching dress and holding his press conference in a gilded hall, do you think the media would listen to an old man with no experience of the real world? No, it's because he claims to speak for you.

I didn't demote loose cannons. I buried them.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:48 AM

"why hasn't he been censured by the church hierarchy?"
From all reports, he got a pretty good reception at the conference here - certainly wasn't censured for his remarks - far from it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:55 AM

"Tony Blair is an interesting case. I see him as a weak war mongerer who thought he could moderate your President and ended up giving him international credibility for a time instead. For that he deserves the scorn he gets."

Now that must surely have been an afterthought Musktwat - after all you have unashamedly stated that you voted for the man three times - Afghanistan in 2001, Iraq in 2003; last election Blair won was May 2005.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 02:30 PM

Fascinating thread. it starts with the discriminatory policies of Israel and ends with the corruption of the catholic church.

Mudcat, where respectable people get to debate with the more unfortunate in society. I clicked on Teribus's name to read a few of his posts and it seems my initial thought is vindicated.

The internet doesn't half bring out the dregs of society.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 01:48 PM

"The internet doesn't half bring out the dregs of society."

Certainly does R Sole it dragged you out didn't it?

TROLL

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 02:04 PM

There you go.

Terribulus reads my bit about Blair, totally fails to understand it and let's us know his lack of grasp.

Well done. You must have written that all by yourself.

Have a star.
⭐️

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 03:37 PM

Teribus is correct, you have said on numerous occasions that you voted for Blair and admitted to some sort of association with the creep.

You are either an idiot, a blowhard, or a hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 04:52 PM

Nearly as good at missing the point as Teribus aren't you ake? It takes a special talent to have as little understanding of people as you pair. Have you ever actually interacted with anyone in the real world and if so, did you find you never saw them again?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 07:49 PM

Hey listen up you Bollocks if the pair of you voted for Blair, or wished for a Labour victory in 2005 you all tacitly approved of what "your" government was doing - fuckin' end of - accept the responsibility - I know that is something good "socialists" never do.
Certainly not corrupt bastards who have anything to do with UK Trades Unions.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 06:47 PM

Could be worse. We could have voted for Michael Howard or William Haig.

Whatever, if I ever vote the same as Terribulus, section me and prevent me interfering with what I patently wouldn't understand.

Well done Akenaton. Even after I explain what is so funny about Terribulus's lack of comprehension, you defend his right to look thick.

😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 06:44 AM

"section me and prevent me interfering with what I patently wouldn't understand"

Pity that you weren't so discerning when they offered you the job on that Quango that fucked up the NHS then. You hadn't a clue about that either. How did you wangle yourself onto that? Chit-chat at a few dinners with senior medicos accompanied by Mrs Musket and the "old boy" network of your Labour pals?

Had you, and many like you, voted the way I did we would not have had to suffer Tony Blair and Gordon Brown and the country would have been far, far better off for it.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 11:14 AM

Bloody hell. Whatever the thread, This Teribus goes out of his way to be obnoxious.

Most social media weed out such trolls. Mudcat seems to have a thriving commune.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 11:50 AM

I like this. Terribulus says he isn't being homophobic towards me then in his blind hatred starts talking about some fictitious Mrs Musket.

Don't judge others by your own sexual choices duckie.

I have never been on any quango either, been associated with The Labour Party or any other of your trollism.

Any chance of moderators doing their bit? His jeer at me concerning a wife are bad enough but the accusation of going to dinners for political favours would be libellous if it weren't for his mental instability as a defence.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 09:18 PM

Ah but Musktwat which one of you is speaking now - that's the trouble with a multi-faceted identity - could well be that you are not the fat, thick, nouveau riche, Mercedes driving boor that plagues this forum. Perhaps you are not the gay Musktwat who resides in Argyll who is on record as having referred to his partner as the "Ginger Minger" - no idea but rest assured if one of you twats says something using the handle "Musket" all of you get tarred by it.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 09:19 PM

Some interesting comments on Christian "persecution"[sic] here:

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/bill-maher-slams-conservatives-gop-playing-persecuted-christian-184812757.html

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jun 15 - 10:11 PM

As a Christian, I am appalled by "those" Christians who have the gall to usurp and limit and defame the name of Christianity - those hypocrites who base their so-called faith on the condemnation of others and the failure to question their own conduct.

Even Evangelical Christians can have a home in the Democratic Party, as witnessed by Jim Wallis and his Sojourners social justice activists.

But yeah, Christians who base their faith on the exclusion and denigration of others, won't feel at home in the Democratic Party.

But it's not "those" Christians who are running the taxpayer-supported private schools in Israel. I don't think "those" Christians could admit Muslim students. And now that I'm in Edinburgh, surrounded by posh private schools, I can see how some in the UK would object to private schools as exclusionary. But private religious schools aren't like that in many instances. Many were built to provide a superior education to the lower classes.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:27 AM

Do you think Terribulus is beginning to see why Musket is a shared log in?

It's to make smear attempts that have fuck all to do with the subject irrelevant. The hit above being a clear example. Terribulus starts shouting that he isn't homophobic then assumes a gay man must be married to a "Mrs Musket." Not a mistake but a poorly aimed trollism.

Mind you, he also seems to think an NHS Trust is a quango. On the basis he likes the word I suppose but obviously doesn't know what one is. A wonderful display of hopping about like a one legged bloke at an arse kicking contest.

If you can't post quality, go for quantity eh Terribulus?

Give my regards to Akenaton. You have more in common each day.
👬

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 03:59 AM

Some of the "Muskets" you pretend to be do have wives.
How is anyone to know which one you are pretending to be at any one time?

Joe, have a good stay.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 08:22 AM

Musket himself refers to a Mrs. Musket but when Teribus does he is a homophobe. Am I missing something here?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Jun 15 - 04:32 PM

Don't make no sense to me either, except that the multimuskets can choose which one wants to be offended !?.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 09:59 AM

I am married to Mrs Musket.

The Musket Terribulus had a pop at though is gay, said he was gay in context when referring to homophobic comments by Terribulus and in reply, Terribulus said he was married to a Mrs Musket.

I'm not offended by anything by the way, except of course in terms of empathy.

Musket is a married person who for no reason whatsoever has despicable scum saying on Mudcat that his marriage isn't as valid as their own. Considering that Starry pete, Akenaton and other homophobic lowlife feel they can say that, but if I were to say that Akenaton is in an open marriage or that pete's wife carries diseases and shouldn't be married or better still, that normal people should take regard of the bible, I'd get my post deleted.

I agree with Musket really. Mudcat is allowing propagation of hatred. Shame on Max.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 10:54 AM

"Mudcat is allowing propagation of hatred."

Indeed! Hatred of religion, hatred of others whose opinions some don't share, hatred of Jews......the list goes on.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 11:07 AM

"homophobic comments by Terribulus"

What "homophobic" comments? You've sort of painted yourselves into a corner on this one - part of the double-edged sword effect of being a single posting identity with more than one person posting under that identity.

Now C'mon Musktwat give us all a rare treat and just for once back up some of your "Made-Up-Shit". But I most certainly will not be holding my breath.

Note that the Gnome isn't demanding that you back up your accusations with some evidence - typical "socialist" animal farm criteria, not surprising from a "Trades Union Activist" - He badgered me for long enough - you however get a free pass.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 05:04 PM

This is a bloody awful thread with bloody awful Terribus adding his bloody awful, attempted-bullying contributions (it doesn't work, of course, but what would Billyboy know. Don't tell him, Pike). But once again we have the Guest troll calling unnamed people Jew-haters. He's unnamed and he's too cowardly to name names himself. Mods, whatever else you'll put up with in the name of having one pigsty that you never feel like keeping clean, that is simply not on. There is not one scrap of evidence on this board that we have Jew-haters in our midst. And, mods, should a Jew-hater ever rear his extremely ugly head here, it wouldn't need you lot to fix his bloody wagon. We would manage that perfectly well without your able assistance. You lot seem to get rather prickly when you think you detect Christian-haters, shutting threads and all that, but you are quite happy to see this arsehole calling people Jew-haters who you know full well are no such thing. I do not demand that you do something about this, as this is not my gig, but I do wish to point to your double standard. My prediction is that you will delete this post/thread, but will say nothing when this troll vomits out his lying nonsense in a day or two's time all over again. I would love you to prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 06:30 PM

Bullying contributions Stevie old son? Have a count of the contributions to this thread up to your last post you will find - my 10 to your 16 - no wonder you find it so awful.

How is this for threatening on-line bully-boy language:

"And, mods, should a Jew-hater ever rear his extremely ugly head here, it wouldn't need you lot to fix his bloody wagon. We would manage that perfectly well without your able assistance."

Whose the "we" Shaw? Team Musktwat and associates? And just who the hell are you to decide who is to be sorted out?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 06:46 PM

I'd sort you out sunshine, if I thought for one minute your lies, jibes, racism and homophobia were read and considered by intelligent people.

As it is, you are a disgrace, either as Terribulus or unnamed guest.

You accused a Musket of going to dinners with politicians in order to sit on quangos. Considering, as we know each other rather well and have done for thirty years, that none of us has ever sat on a quango, been wined and dined by politicians for favours or indeed taken a Mrs Musket with us to an imaginary dinner...

This is the lying trolling behaviour that moderators are required to delete. Not just close threads as they did earlier after Akenaton repeated his wicked lies about gay men, but delete.

That's what Steve is on about if I read him correctly. The lies, failed cyber bullying and rubbish that you and your mates seem to be proud of. And Max seems to enjoy keeping for anybody to google and read.

Shame on him. Not on Terribulus. You can't after all educate pork.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 06:53 PM

C'mon Musket report it to the "authorities" and get this site closed down in the UK......pretty please.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 07:46 PM

You worry all you like about post counts, Billyboy   As it happens, and unbeknownst to you, I've been in Sjcily for over a week with precious little wifi to hand, but never mind.
Instead of getting all defensive about me, why don't you do the honest thing and tell us what you think about the disreputable Guest bastard who's calling people here Jew-haters? Do you think we are? Do you really think that your silly little spats that you start here with anyone who you perceive to be ever so slightly to the left of Genghis Khan to be that much more important than an anonymous trolling twat who is calling unspecified people here Jew-haters? For a change, why don't you just put yourself on the side of right-thinking and quit the obsession with picking fights with people who you think just might not be voting Tory?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 07:47 PM

Cor, and the Mafia dust is affecting my bloody eyesight too.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 08:03 PM

"The lady doth protest too much"

Willie the Shake

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jun 15 - 09:12 PM

In know it's a hard concept for you to understand, Steve, but Tories are welcome here, too.

As for Teribus, I've read his posts and can't find anything objectionable about them. I may not agree with them, but they are presented rationally and politely.

As for one Musket being insulted by something and another not, that's garbage. All three are the same to Mudcatters, So apparently Musket is both straight and gay, married and unmarried. None of the muskets has a right to complain. But then you knew that...

Mudcat doesn't acknowledge an obligation to delete anything, even personal attacks and tory propaganda. The job of moderators is to keep the peace, not to sanitize the discussion. Personal attacks are prohibited - and Mudcatters are expected to obey that prohibition. Moderators are not obliged to respond to personal attacks in any way. Their job is simply to keep the peace, using whatever tactics are available to them.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 01:02 AM

I don' think I can recall ever having read a more stunning dIsplay of arrogance and hypocrisy, Steve. you assume that all "right thinking" people are those who think just like you ! you don't want any form of debate. You want to bully, berate and belittle thOse
Dare tO disagree with you. What you want is silence.....silence from people of faith, from peoPle who understand the dilemma of the Israeli situation. You want silence from all who don't share your narrow interpretations of things. Your intolerance and false sense of being" right thInking are signs of an intellect that has ceased up and just repeats the same tired stuff post after post.
Sorry but that is just my opinion . I expect you will want full censorship of my post because I disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 01:55 AM

The posts to this thread at "08 Jun 15 - 09:12 PM" and at " 09 Jun 15 - 01:02 AM" just about say it all - basically a repeat of what your Team read about yourselves on another recent thread by quite a few more members of this forum, so how you are regarded should not come as all that much of a surprise to you.

Bullying tactics Shaw? How about this one from your pals on Team Musktwat?

"I'd sort you out sunshine, if I thought for one minute your lies, jibes, racism and homophobia were read and considered by intelligent people."

The opening part of that is nothing more than a threat. Were he indeed to attempt it he would be subject to receiving the greatest surprise he has ever had in his life. As for the remainder, as I have often invited team Musktwat to do in the past, yet have never received so much as one single answer as an example:

- What lies?
- What racism?
- What homophobia?

Jibes? I consider those as being all part and parcel of debate, mine tend to be fairly mild and good natured compared to those thrown out by the likes of Team Musktwat and Shaw. But no fear, Team Musktwat will once again come up with nothing (Shocking that isn't it Gnome? - getting accused of doing something that you haven't done and your "accusers" refusing to provide illustrative examples). Of course the Gnome isn't going to say anything because these "members" are his pals and they are all as two-faced and hypocritical as each other.

As for this bit:

"You accused a Musket of going to dinners with politicians in order to sit on quangos."

Your English comprehension is lacking - go back and read what I said. I did not accuse a Musktwat of any such thing - IIRC I ASKED if that was how you got the job, I did not state that that was how you got the job, having received your answer I have subsequently never repeated the question or alluded to the gist of it. At the time you first paraded your glittering and illustrious career declaring to all on this forum that you were "Fucking important" {your own words} the presence of Musktwat as a group of at least three different posters was not known.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 03:46 AM

Oh, you asked! Silly me. That's alright then.

Did you enjoy a wank this morning? Or does your social impotence extend to the physical?

zzzzzz



Joe. Three people sharing is merely a reaction to the lack of appropriate moderation here. Musket shared his log in with Musket and I in order to confuse those who put their bigotry before objective debate. If you think Terribulus is ok to accuse one of us of corruption, say so. I know Musket speaks highly of you, but I wonder about his judgement in this case. By the way, he is the Musket that Terribulus was accusing of being corrupt purely on the basis of his public service. Nasty..

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 04:03 AM

"By the way, he is the Musket that Terribulus was accusing of being corrupt purely on the basis of his public service."

And we only have who's word for that? Musktwat or Musktwat?

Have you even got the foggiest notion of how stupid you are making yourselves look.

"Three people sharing is merely a reaction to the lack of appropriate moderation here."

Ehmm no Musktwat it was done so that you could attempt to "sort people out" and impose your own bigotry and intolerance on a forum that basically thinks you and your "bully-boy" tactics suck and they have repeatedly told you so.

"Musket shared his log in with Musket and I in order to confuse those who put their bigotry before objective debate."

You would not know objective debate if it jumped up and bit you.

The three, or how many there are of you, seem to have no problem with throwing completely unfounded accusations about - Now objectively, if you disagree with that statement you can either retract the accusations you have made or you can support them with something that proves them to be correct - My bet is that you will, as always, do neither. What we will get is more pointless bluster and waffle from Team Musktwat ( F''k me two of you claim to be medical professionals - the lot of you want to be sectioned).

"Sort out" indeed!! There is not one of you could even sort out the drawer you keep your socks in.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 04:11 AM

Note that the Gnome isn't demanding that you back up your accusations with some evidence

Why bring me into it again? I am beginning to think that Teribus has some sort of fixation on me. That is twice I have been brought into a thread for no obvious reason. Sorry, Teribus, I am a married gnome. You will have to find someone else to stalk.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 05:08 AM

You don't get off so lightly Gnome - It was you who complained bitterly when accused of something (That did turn out to be correct) and I didn't immediately supply substantive evidence to back up the accusation - and as you do you went on, and on and on and on about it. Then wound your neck in and went silent when the example you requested was produced. Now if accusations have to be supported c'mon Gnome let us all here and see you apply a uniform standard and support my request for "Team Musktwat" to back up the accusations leveled at me.

As previously stated you won't because that would be breaking ranks with your "brothers" comrade wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 05:48 AM

c'mon Gnome let us all here and see you apply a uniform standard and support my request for "Team Musktwat" to back up the accusations leveled at me.

Different kettle of fish entirely. I will ask for substantiation of accusations against me but why should I ask for substantiation of accusations against you?

You are just being silly now.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 05:54 AM

Then wound your neck in and went silent when the example you requested was produced.

I was away for the day doing normal things for the day! I don't sit around waiting for you as you seem to think. Nor do I mention you on threads that you have had nothing to do with. What is that all about?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 06:17 AM

I do not demand to have anything or anyone silenced or censored here. I don't care a jot how objectionable or not you think Teribus is, and some of my best friends are Tories as it happens. My characterisation of his modus operandi here - an occasional, scowling, hectoring, partial, bullying dipper-in who doesn't actually care what his "opponents" say as long as they're his treasured opponents - stands as far as I'm concerned. I don't even care about the occasional straying into idiot-land by HiLo when he decides that he can't understand plain English. That's his problem. I don't give a damn. But Joe, you are attacking me instead of the anonymous trolling coward who makes defamatory remarks about people here being Jew-haters who you know damn well are no such thing. Are you scared of him? Would you rather have a scurrilous and disreputable liar than an atheist? Is Teribus scared of him? That he'll say something nasty back to you (which he will)? Why don't you both say what you think of him instead of deflecting to me? I'm a bloody bunny rabbit compared to that Guest for Christ's sake. But it's a free country, so say nothing if you both like and I'll make my own mind up where you stand. I mean, how many times do I have to tell people like you and HiLo that this is not my bloody gig?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 06:24 AM

As for this:

As for Teribus, I've read his posts and can't find anything objectionable about them. I may not agree with them, but they are presented rationally and politely.

...Jaysus, it's a good job the corset shop's open of a Tuesday because I've just split the one I'm wearing.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 07:39 AM

Dave the Gnome - 09 Jun 15 - 05:48 AM

Why?? because by not holding them to the same standard you prove yourself to a hypocritical, two-faced, left-wing cliché. Now, now, whatever happened to all that desire for equality and for level playing fields and fair play for all. Don't ever demand from others what you, yourself are not prepared to do and live up to yourself.

Steve Shaw - 09 Jun 15 - 06:24 AM

Good heavens Shaw someone expresses a different opinion to yours and you spit the dummy out - pathetic. The only people who have shown themselves to be "hectoring", "Bully-boy" types on this forum threatening to "sort people out" have been yourself and "Team Musktwat".

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 07:43 AM

Dunno what you are on Teribus but I wouldn't mind a couple of pints of it. And exactly why do you keep mentioning me in threads that I have had very little or no input to?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 08:20 AM

This particular thread Gnome? This was your first post to it wasn't it:

Dave the Gnome - 04 Jun 15 - 04:52 PM

"Nearly as good at missing the point as Teribus aren't you ake?"

Now up to that point I had not mentioned or referred to you in any way.

It was YOU my little rotund, ex-Trades Union Activist dumplin' who first mentioned me. Wazza matter memory failing? You also appear to be short on logic and reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 08:23 AM

Give it up Davie, your hole is getting deeper and deeper.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 08:27 AM

Yet another Teribus post presented rationally and politely, Joe Offer. How many times does he have to type "Musktwat" instead of Musket before you'll regard him as being ever so slightly impolite, Joe? You do know what "twat" means, do you? I can think of quite a few good pejorative plays on words I could apply to Teribus's real surname, come to think of it, but fortunately I've grown up since I spat out the dummy this morning. Now, Joe, do you think it's OK for an anonymous guest to call people here Jew-haters? In your own time now...

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 08:35 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Cultural genocide
From: Teribus - PM
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 12:05 PM

GUEST - 03 Jun 15 - 08:59 AM

...they have the same disregard for historical fact as the Musktwats, Steve Shaw, Jim Carroll, DtG, Raggytash, etc, etc....

Let me see, was 04 Jun 15 - 04:52 PM before or after 3 Jun 15 - 12:05 PM. Can't seem to figure it out. Can you? It was the fist mention of my name on either thread. Can't recall who mentioned me. Must be my memory after all... :-)

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 08:44 AM

Every mention of any of us by Billybullyboy is a fist mention, Dave. :-)

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 08:55 AM

Damn, typing skills AND memory failing. At least we still have something to laugh at :-)

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:06 AM

Fair enough, but as I am sure you know, the point I was making is that you mentioned me with no reason on the 3rd of June. I did the same the next day in what I can only call retaliation. It is something I should not have done but I am only a Gnome after all. Never been one for 'who started it' so, as far as I am concerned, it is finished.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:18 AM

Ah, yes, an aspect of Teribus's modus operandi I forgot to mention. Tell him how naughty he's been and he tells you back how naughtier someone else has been in order to justify his own naughtinessitudinousness. And he accuses ME of spitting out MY dummy... :-)

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jun 15 - 09:50 AM

Fair play to you Dave

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 04:16 PM

I try not to feed the trolls especially when they are the OP in a thread. But this one made me 'member back to my state-sponsored school experience when a laddie: The Lord's Prayer, Christmas pageants and carols, easter eggs.
Yes, the Massachusetts public school system!

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 04:43 PM

I didn't see anything that could be remotely described as trolling in the original post in this thread. You do appear to have a problem.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jun 15 - 05:33 PM

I must confess, that I thought the opening post seemed pretty neutral, and tried not to judge it by the posters past history.
guest, yes, it was the same in my school days in England.