BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 01:48 PM

"The internet doesn't half bring out the dregs of society."

Certainly does R Sole it dragged you out didn't it?

TROLL

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 02:30 PM

Fascinating thread. it starts with the discriminatory policies of Israel and ends with the corruption of the catholic church.

Mudcat, where respectable people get to debate with the more unfortunate in society. I clicked on Teribus's name to read a few of his posts and it seems my initial thought is vindicated.

The internet doesn't half bring out the dregs of society.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:55 AM

"Tony Blair is an interesting case. I see him as a weak war mongerer who thought he could moderate your President and ended up giving him international credibility for a time instead. For that he deserves the scorn he gets."

Now that must surely have been an afterthought Musktwat - after all you have unashamedly stated that you voted for the man three times - Afghanistan in 2001, Iraq in 2003; last election Blair won was May 2005.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:48 AM

"why hasn't he been censured by the church hierarchy?"
From all reports, he got a pretty good reception at the conference here - certainly wasn't censured for his remarks - far from it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:45 AM

"We" are "tolerant" of homosexuals.

I wonder if "homosexuals" are tolerant of "we"?

In the equal society your religion seeks to cause division in, you don't need tolerance between trait identifiers, just tolerance between individuals.

I doubt "homosexuals" need your tolerance Joe, just respect as individuals.

Tony Blair is an interesting case. I see him as a weak war mongerer who thought he could moderate your President and ended up giving him international credibility for a time instead. For that he deserves the scorn he gets.

But I still have the photo of me shaking his hand at No.10. If I needed a cv, it would include my work advising at the cabinet office on governance in public office. I still get a bit of mileage out of describing how he was behind closed doors doing business.

You see, judging individuals on individual matters is important. One reason why I am so scathing of the sheep mentality aims of organised religion, giving people their collective view for the week from the pulpit and speaking to the media as the church.

If he wasn't wearing a fetching dress and holding his press conference in a gilded hall, do you think the media would listen to an old man with no experience of the real world? No, it's because he claims to speak for you.

I didn't demote loose cannons. I buried them.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 03:41 AM

"you just can't view any diverse group of people and make sweeping judgments of the whole based on your observations of a few."

Very, very true Joe, however, on the BS section on this forum that is where we get into "Animal Farm" territory. You see the Musktwats feels free to put that tactic to use whenever they see fit, but others are castigated for doing so (even when they aren't).

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 11:11 PM

Yup, it goes to show ya. Just as Greg says, you can't let the part speak for the whole...

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 09:09 PM

We Americans still have a very high opinion of Tony Blair

Speak for yourself, Joe - some of us U.S. folks know better.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:29 PM

Now, Musket, the main error in your reference to Cardinal Burke, is to assume that the individual speaks for the whole, that any old individual you dig up who wears fancy clothes must be representative of the entire Catholic Church. Even the pope does not represent the whole of Catholic thinking, although he has considerable authority - authority enough to demote Burke to the job of chaplain to a rich boys' club (which means that he has been removed from any position from which he can speak with authority, but he still hasn't shut up).

But you just can't view any diverse group of people and make sweeping judgments of the whole based on your observations of a few.

We Americans still have a very high opinion of Tony Blair, and view him to be the consummate English gentleman, intellectual, leader, and diplomat. We're sorry that he was in bed with George W. Bush like he was; but after all, it is proper to be tolerant of homosexuals these days, isn't it? It's largely because of Tony Blair that we generally have a high opinion of The British. We generally have no idea who served in your government since WWII other than Churchill and Blair; and we secretly believe that Britain is actually ruled by The Queen, and isn't she a nice old lady? And just like Cardinal Burke, she really looks cute when she's wearing those fancy clothes and the crown and jewels and all.

Now if you British knew that's what we Americans know of your government, why, you would probably actually scoff at us.

But we all know that Britain and the U.S. and the Catholic Church / Vatican are vastly diverse and complex, and that it is well-nigh impossible to make simplistic, all-encompassing praise and/or condemnation of any of them.

Or do we?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:43 PM

Yeah but it still smells sweeter than religious hypocricy.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 01:58 PM

I don't doubt that it is brown.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:32 AM

He may be an asshole, I personally would call him an arsehole, but anyway.

But he is speaking for the Catholic Church. He says he is and the Vatican haven't issued a correction or removed him from a post where he speaks for them.

In fact, one of the roles of the Vatican is to speak for its members. If you must divorce Catholics from err.. Catholic sect, fine. But speaking as an owner of a brown settee.....

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:24 AM

Joe-

I'm honestly curious. I know nothing of this Cardinal Burke, but if he's as big an asshole as you say he is, why hasn't he been censured by the church hierarchy? They didn't seem to have a problem doing so with the Berrigan brothers.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 08:10 AM

Has anybody attempted to defend Cardinal Burke or is this another straw man of your own making - damned it#f I can find it
Burke maybe a burke, but he is representative of a large number of churchmen who feel it is their job to dictate the will of the people rather than accept it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 04:01 AM

Musket, I have no quarrel with those who hold no religious belief, or those who hold beliefs other than my own.

I do think I have a right to take issue with those who attack what they assume to be what I believe, and there are many of those here. It's not fair, especially since so many of you can't seem to be able to respond to what I had to say before you've first twisted my statements beyond recognition.

And then Musket says: are you saying anything said by someone articulating the stance of your church is to be taken with a pinch of salt should be verified with you first?

My ex-wife says I am compulsively honest. She didn't particularly like that trait in me. If I know something, I'll tell you the truth. If I don't know something, I'll tell you that I don't know. And when I tell you something, I assume you have the ability to check the facts I've given to assure yourself that I am correct.

I admire your tenacity in your attempt to defend the credibility of Cardinal Burke, but your efforts are futile. The man's an asshole.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:54 AM

"So, what was it we were talking about before you tried to discredit me because of my association with priests?"
No I do not Joe - I argue with what you say,
If there is any discredit, it is your attempting to shift the blame from the Church onto the failings of individuals.
Please do no make this a personal thing - it is not it is an attempt on my prt to understand the behaviour of the church and why people who apper to be caring and humane would want to efend that behaviour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:45 AM

Speaking of rhetorical, are you saying anything said by someone articulating the stance of your church is to be taken with a pinch of salt should be verified with you first? (Phrased in a similar way to how you phrased one at me earlier.)

That's how it comes across Joe. You use the word "atheist" to mean some dark organised force working against superstition whereas the reality is a combination of indifference and seeing your leaders as medieval and increasingly irrelevant.

If religions didn't keep wishing to influence society at large they wouldn't come under so much scrutiny.

But they do

So they are.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 03:28 AM

Yes, Jim, if you're the one who makes the rules, I suppose you can set specifications. My point, however, is that we all have faults, and we all are associated one way or another with people who have horrible faults. Our own guilt, or our guilt by association, does not disqualify us from speaking.

For the most part, we're better off speaking logically and from the facts, and not from any authority we might claim. To attempt to refute somebody by saying he has no right to speak because he's guilty of something or associates with somebody who's guilty of something, is not a particularly convincing argument.

So, what was it we were talking about before you tried to discredit me because of my association with priests?

I forget.

Oh, yeah....it was something about a moral compass. I think morality is best determined by rational thought, not by the bleatings of conservative clerics. And I believe I am just as capable of rational thought, as the most atheistic of rationalists, or as the most rational of atheists. Playing games about who has moral authority is silly. If what I say makes sense, THAT has authority, no matter what guilt I might have to bear for the offenses of my priests..

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 02:38 AM

" Of course you wouldn't say there are no atheists who abuse children."
There are no atheists who use their atheism to abuse children, and, as far as I can recollect, there are no atheist orgnisations who have used their influence and authority to cover up, and even facilitate the abuse of children - cant be said about priests and their Church
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jun 15 - 02:01 AM

Musket, what I said is: So, Musket, are you saying that there are no atheists who abuse children? I'm sure the percentage is about the same, between clerics and atheists. So, how can an atheist pass judgment on all Catholics or all clerics because of a minority who are undeniably guilty of abuse?

That, my friend, is a rhetorical question. The answer is obvious. Of course you wouldn't say there are no atheists who abuse children. And neither would I say that there are no Catholic priests who abuse children. So, it seems then that we are on level ground, and I have just as much right to speak as you.

---

Teribus, I would be very surprised to learn that the "give me the child..." phrase came from Ignatius Loyola or Francis Xavier. My Oxford Dictionary of Quotations says it is a "Jesuit maxim," and that is quoted in Lean's Collectanea, vol. 3 (1903). I know from personal experience that it is a Jesuit maxim, often referred to by Jesuits when they're trying to raise funds to support their schools.
But Lean's doesn't cite the source of the maxim. I said above that while an Aristotelian origin seems possible, I'd like to see chapter and verse - and preferably see the maxim in Greek.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 11:38 AM

I got as far as "you are saying Musket that atheists don't abuse children" in your first sentence and didn't bother getting any further. I know I franchised Musket out to two mates but I doubt any of us, all of whom have been professionally involved with child protection and safeguarding would be saying that. Of course, some people might read your saying we said it without having read what we did put. Is that the idea? You've been getting lessons from Terribulus and Keith A Hole of Hertford if that's the case.

If you wish to act like a grown up Joe, start with statements that exhibit mature comment.

Like I said. If someone says a catholic standpoint is x, then I either expect the Pope's many managers and team leaders to put out a correction and ask the person to stop saying it or the catholic view really is x and Joe is out of tune. Is the Vatican spokesman who called the Irish vote a sad day for humanity still in a job? (The answer by the way is yes.)

If the Catholic Church has no consensus on an issue, it should stop people saying that it has.

ditto any club that thinks it has a mandate beyond its members.

Although you know, I think the Pope seems happy with the stance of the old bigots who organise his money making ventures for him.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 08:46 AM

Strike two, T-Bird.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 07:57 AM

Well said Joe Offer: 01 Jun 15 - 03:41 AM

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 07:07 AM

"it implies that the quote comes from a book written by Aristotle titled The Philosophy of Aristotle. Aristotle wrote no book with that title."

Sorry Joe but no it does not, the information clearly given is that the quote is included in a book entitled "The Philosophy of Artistotle" a selection of philosophical writings and observations made by Aristotle translated and compiled by J.L.Creed and A.E.Wardman, with introduction and commentary by Renford Bamborough - no inference at all that Aristotle wrote any book entitled "The Philosophy of Aristotle".

Creed and Wardman are Classics Scholars and Professors while Bamborough was a British Philosopher and a Fellow of St. John's College Cambridge, no doubt you could possibly come up with some sort of explanation why these three academics decided to "float in" a line attributed to the Jesuits of the 16th Century and attempt to pass it off as one of Aristotle's own whilst knowing full well that their work and their commentaries would be subject to close and detailed "peer review" - I know that I cannot.

Interesting that you require chapter and verse to support any claim that the quote is Aristotle's yet you seem to accept unverified that it comes from either Ignatius Loyola of Francis Xavier.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:53 AM

"But just what rational defense do you have for picking the recently demoted Cardinal Burke as representative of the Catholic Church"
Because his statement echoes tat of any more churchman including the one supported by the Vatican - that the result of the referendum was a defeat for humanity.
When the Archbishop of Dublin said he believed the Catholic Church needed to take "a reality check", I have little doubt he referred to the future of the Catholic Church rather than that of homosexuals - a statement of self-interest.
As a philosophy, Christianity has much to offer (when it is not being ignored or distorted by those who claim it as their doctrine) - it is the organised church which has distorted and abused it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:09 AM

Teribus, I'd like to think the Jesuits got their quote from Aristotle, and it certainly does sound Aristotelian in nature. But the Website you cited does not cite chapter and verse. On top of that, it implies that the quote comes from a book written by Aristotle titled The Philosophy of Aristotle. Aristotle wrote no book with that title.

The most credible information I found comes from the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, which calls the slogan a "Jesuit maxim." Others attribute it to St. Ignatius Loyola or St. Francis Xavier, but there is nothing credible to verify these attributions.

If I'm to believe it comes from Aristotle, I need to see chapter and verse. This page (click) makes a good attempt at studying the origin of the quotation, but it's inconclusive.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 04:00 AM

I can't argue with you, Jim Carroll and Musket. I completely agree what we have more idiots in the Catholic Church than we deserve to have. Somehow, I've been able to make it through 66 years as a Catholic without them being able to eject me from my church. I admit that there have times when I was afraid that the idiots would prevail, just as I have often been afraid that the idiots would prevail in the government of my country. and yes, there are times I thought I should give up hope for both my country and my church.

There are many faults within the Catholic Church, many issues that have not yet been resolved. You know, I guess that means that the Catholic Church is just like Real Life. What would life be, if there were no problems to be resolved, no issues to discuss?

But just what rational defense do you have for picking the recently demoted Cardinal Burke as representative of the Catholic Church? Certainly, you must have some logic to defend your choice of Burke the Buffoon as more representative of the Catholic Church than say, Pope Francis?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:41 AM

So, Musket, are you saying that there are no atheists who abuse children? I'm sure the percentage is about the same, between clerics and atheists. So, how can an atheist pass judgment on all Catholics or all clerics because of a minority who are undeniably guilty of abuse?

I don't pretend to speak for the Catholic Church, though the recently-demoted Cardinal Burke seems to think himself more Catholic than the Pope. I can, however, speak from many years of education and experience - and I can document what I say.

Whatever the case, it's unfair to pick out the idiot in a group and then name him as representative of the group as a whole. Where's your logic there? If the guy is talking like an idiot, wouldn't it be better to look to somebody more credible, somebody who is closer to the issue, like the Archbishop of Dublin?

How can you say that Burke is "clearly following the rule book"? Because he wears fancy clothes? And for that matter, how can you say credibly that Burke's legalistic, judgmental interpretation is the way the rules are to be read? And where does it say that every jot and tittle of "the rules" must be followed to the letter by every Catholic? That's the absolutist in you speaking, Musket - the little voice who believes that everybody must live by ideology, because ideology is the only thing you can understand.

Tell me this: whose perspective is closer to that of Pope Francis? - mine, or Burke's?

Of course, Burke was more in line with Benedict and John Paul than I was - but that was another day. Seems to me, then, that there might be room for diversity and a variety of perspectives within the Catholic Church. Maybe we don't all have to think like hateful people like Burke.

But yeah, the right-wing buffoons are a problem, because they won't shut up and because they have a lot of money behind them. So, people listen to them because people listen to the money. Aren't you smart enough not to be taken in by their charade?

Musket: You say that "atheists" this that and the other in equal numbers. You wanna give me an example of that? I am fully aware of the wide range of opinion among atheists. What makes you think that a wide range of opinion among Catholics is impossible?

But what I call "atheist ideologues" are atheists who can see no validity in any school of thought other than their own. Those atheists have a lot in common with each other - and with the most fundamentalist of religious people. Is that what you are - an ideologue who cannot accept diversity of thought?

Your view of Catholicism is narrow, shallow, and purely ideological. That leads me to conclude that your own thinking must be narrow, shallow, and purely ideological. Tolerance and understanding and respect, do not appear to be part of your vocabulary.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:30 AM

"Within the Catholic Church, Cardinal Burke is generally considered to be a buffoon,"
At the same conference the Vatican quote that the result of the referendum was "a defeat for mankind", played a prominent part - Burke is not just a bad apple Joe, but representative of much of what the barrel contains - the Church is full of Burkes (with a small or a big 'B'.
The church has yet to come to terms with some of the major issues that effect our society - contraception, divorce, pregnancy termination, homosexuality..... over all of which, it has been dragged kicking and screaming into the latter half of the twentieth century - and has yet to move further (and many churchmen haven't even reached that far).
Just as with clerical sex abuse, to pin the blame on a wayward few is to ignore the problems of the church, which extend far beyond the issues themselves and have their roots deep into the question of the authority of the church in relation to temporal life.
I have no argument whatever with what people believe - as long as they arrive at those beliefs of their own free will
It is my opinion that this is not the case, following your "zombie" remark, it appears to be yours that you do
Incidentally, if the zombie stories are examined, no zombie is born such, but becomes one by being infected from outside.
I have always argued that the activities of the church must be confined to spiritual guidance sought voluntarily by sentient human beings - any influence it has should be limited to that, under careful supervision, so that it can never be abused again.
If what has been exposed to have happened in the church, had taken place in our schools, it would have led to a mass restructuring of our education system.
That restructuring must take place with how religion is maintained, if it is to be, and how it is passed on.
The same has to apply with the political and social influence that the church has had.
Sure, it is inevitable that people's religions affect how they view life in general, fine.
A little different from the power the church has attained, wielded and abused down the centuries.
The greatest threat to human life and well-being today arises from global religious disputes - certainly not a new phenomenon - the toxic mix of politics, power and religion has always been with us.
Some people here seem fine with that situation as long as it is their religion at the top of the toxic heap - very much a part of what these arguments and shouting matches are about.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:14 AM

I did Google" it Shaw and found this:

Quotes from "The Philosophy of Aristotle"

Straight into attack mode eh Greg - typical and behaviour that has ruined this forum.

The statement given by Jim Carroll was:
" "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man""

This is a quote from Aristotle and it refers to how important early childhood influences are the the development of character. It is mistakenly attributed to the Jesuits.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 03:06 AM

The problem is Joe, the buffoons say that they represent the aims of their club and you say you can pick and choose the rules.

Are they misrepresenting when clearly following the rule book or are you diluting the message?

To the rest of society, Jim seems fairly "on the ball" with this one.

You reckon the cardinal referred to doesn't speak for Catholics. Do you speak for them? If there are myriad messages, why bother with a collective club? You say that "atheists" this that and the other in equal numbers. What are "atheists" being told as to their moral compass? Do you include those who are neither theists or atheists? The vast majority of western people don't deny theism (the a in atheist) but frankly haven't bothered considering it in the first place.

Clerical abuse. Pick out the "atheists" in that one.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 02:26 AM

Jim Carroll says: A leading churchman at a religious conference has just announced that "Ireland has gone beyond Paganism and is disobeying the will of God".

That would be Cardinal Burke, who has been sabre-rattling and making hints of insurrection ever since Pope Francis was elected. He is reputed to wear the fanciest clothes in the Vatican, out-dressing most recent popes. He recently made news by being demoted by the pope to a sinecure position as "patron" of the Knights of Malta, an organization of rich, conservative, old guys.

Within the Catholic Church, Cardinal Burke is generally considered to be a buffoon, but he is a darling of the ultraconservatives.

Not a good person to quote as an example of mainstream Catholicism.

But yes, we have a number of buffoons. I saw one up on the altar this morning. I'm sure glad he's moved to Colorado and just back to visit relatives..

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 Jun 15 - 02:12 AM

I have managed to avoid this thread until now. I understand why.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:04 PM

One only has to read one of these threads Joe to see what you say is true. I see no people of faith starting these slug fests. But I guess some people get off on picking fights with others kinda pathetic I think

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 15 - 10:21 PM

Jim Carroll says: Down the centuries religion has been taught as spiritual blackmail - if you don't believe, you are a sinner and will suffer eternal damnation - say this is not the case if I am wrong.
In Catholic communities, right up to comparatively recently, religion has been driven into children from birth, the methods used include physical violence in the form of beating, humiliation (including that of young children) and ostracisation, encouraged and sometimes enforced by the Clergy - feel free to challenge this also, if it is not a fact.
It is contemptible to ignore this fact and blame "zombies" for being zombies.

What you say is true, Jim...for a small but significant percentage of people brought up with a religious upbringing. And that group is of concern to me. Most people brought up with religion are disgustingly normal, and found a religious upbringing to be nothing akin to the torture you and some others describe.

But you're right that some religious households are abusive, unhealthy environments for raising children. But it it because they're religious, or because abusive people misuse religion as a tool of abuse? Even atheists abuse children, you know - in about the same proportion as religious people.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:34 PM

Correct guest voice text screws everything up

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:16 PM

Evangelizing atheists is what I believe Dan may have had in mind.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:06 PM

Evangelical atheists?

The mind boggles..

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 15 - 05:45 PM

No problem, Dan- and my condolences. Take care, bud.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 15 - 02:41 PM

I am just still reeling at the loss of art thieme. He was a great friend and my faith helps me take the punch. Sorry I blew up at you.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 15 - 01:06 PM

Now, Dan, hold on a minute - I have never before and I am not now mocking you or Mahlon. I come from a long line of Quakers going back 330 years in what's now the U.S.

Why do you think I refer to those I DO occasionally mock - and well they deserve it - as "fundagelicals" and/or "Christians"[sic]and/or creationists?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:45 PM

WELL JOE, don't often have much agreement with musket , but imo theistic evolution is syncretistic accommodation. so, joe, what is the meaning of evolution ?    I thought the meaning of evolution is that there is no meaning !. perhaps you might like to clarify ?

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:30 PM

On the contrary - any preaching comes from the God Botherers - those of us who care about human rights have just made our views known about the Church (an all-male celibate sect in Irland) interfering in our lives.
If this doesn't interest you, feel free not to take part.
A leading churchman at a religious conference has just announced that "Ireland has gone beyond Paganism and is disobeying the will of God".
Sound reasonable to you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 15 - 12:21 PM

And you know my faith Greg and the faith of the little amish guy who calls you his friend also and you want to mock us both

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: olddude
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:51 AM

What a pathetic piece of shit this thread is. Another evangelical atheist trying to preach their faith. And all the other evangelical atheists bow their heads. How about a thread of something interesting for a change or does that not fit your agenda

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:28 AM

Actually it was "bequeathed" by the British government who reclaimed it from the Ottoman Turks. But go ahead and indulge your contempt, it looks good on you.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 15 - 11:00 AM

"As it should."
'Course it should - haven't we just been told by a newly appointed minister that the area was "bequeathed to the Jews by God"? - can't go higher than that.
HIS MASTER'S VOICE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 15 - 10:51 AM

Israel does.

As it should.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 May 15 - 10:37 AM

Unless you count West Bank as Israel.

Israel does. Plus a great deal more terriory.

Subject: RE: BS:Christian Persecution? School funding in Israel
From: Musket
Date: 31 May 15 - 06:24 AM

Whatever the meaning of evolution Joe, I doubt you'll find it in the huge book of fairy tales.

You see that's the problem with reconciling superstition with science. The further religious people try to climb the tree of science the more their arse is showing. You can't fill in the gaps with "God did it."

"When Worlds Collide" was teaching text up till recently in a church school in Durham till the inspectors found out. It isn't just priests that children need protecting from...