BS: boys won't date girls who smoke

Subject: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 12:38 PM

I overheard a conversation during the Thanksgiving holiday weekend. My 20 year old son and his friends were talking and one of them had refused an opportunity to be 'set-up' with a local beauty because he wouldn't date a girl who smoked (and she was obviously a smoker). Two of the guys thought he was crazy, but the other two agreed with him; they held the same notion. The whole conversation surprised me, and I wondered how many young men feel the same way??

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 12:42 PM

Good luck finding YOUNG MEN at Mudcat Liam.
Rick (soon to turn 53!)

Heather, being Glaswegian, was smoking from the age of six months, but I fell in love with her anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Allan C.
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 12:54 PM

Long, long ago, I did a brief stint as a cheerleader. Part of one of the cheers (which had a poor rhyme scheme) was:

Rickety, rackety russ!
We're not allowed to cuss!
We don't smoke and we don't chew
And we don't go with girls who do!
You may think that we don't have fun -
Well, you're right!

I think people in general are far more sensitized to this issue than ever before. My Mom dated my Dad simply because she liked him. Whether or not he smoked was never an issue (he did). Dad, something of a big-man-on-campus dated girls because he wanted to - smoking or non-smoking.

As a candidate for the dating scene myself, and even though I was a smoker for over twenty years and have now quit, I would be quite hesitant to date a woman who smokes. But I thank the gods for the non-smoking women who chose to date me back when I was a smoker!

Strange how things change...

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Easy Rider
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 01:12 PM

It's so hard to kiss a girl who smokes. They taste like ash trays!

I can only remember dating one girl who smoked. She stopped while dating me, and she used breath mints, but her clothes smelled of smoke, and she went right back to smoking, when we broke up.

My father smoked, and I sometimes wondered, after I kissed a smoker for the first time, how my mother put up with it.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 01:19 PM

I can't speak for young men, but I'm a young woman (27). I wouldn't get involved with a man who smoked tobacco, did drugs other than pot, or ate meat. Alcohol-drinking, pot-smoking, and egg/dairy eating I could live with in moderation, but someone who walked the straight edge would be ideal.

I don't mean that I would never go out to a concert or something with anyone who didn't fit my criteria; I mean I wouldn't enter into a serious relationship with them.

This may sound picky to you, but I think it's important to know what you want and have ground rules. It's all about compatibility of values and priorities. And there's probably some evolutionary instinct at work telling me to look for a man who will be alive, healthy, and potent for as long as possible...

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 01:24 PM

If you fall in love with them, they could smoke horse manure and you wouldn't care. These 20 year olds know nothing about real life.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: sophocleese
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 01:27 PM

I get a giggle in the summer watching the young men drive around the "circle" in the park with the music BLARING away. Why date someone who's making himself deaf? I wanted my kids to be intelligent. One of my brothers recently quit smoking and was THRILLED to discover how quickly sex became a lot more fun again. So Marion it sounds a s if you're on the right track for a great love-life.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Little dorrit
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 02:05 PM

coming from Yorkshire, I would personally never date a man who insists on taking his ferret to bed with him.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Chet W.
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 03:04 PM

I am not in the market anymore, but if I hadn't learned at some point that you can't design the person you want ahead of time, I would be like a few of my friends who are now in their fifties and sixties and have never really had a serious relationship because they have not found someone who fits their image of perfection. I have no patience with the idea that moderate smoking, drinking, and even occasional marijuana use (no other drugs) is a character flaw; It is instead a health issue, and one that we should be concerned about but if we don't look any deeper than that into who will be our friends and potential mates, then we're not looking deep enough and we will pass by many interesting, loving, and passionate people who could have made our lives more meaningful, but they can't because their clothes smell funny. Sorry, but it seems awfully shallow to me.

Chet

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Paul S
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 03:57 PM

When I was in high school (not SO long ago), my buddies and I made an observation. After much leering about the school/town, we came to the conclusion that women who smoked had bigger hooters.

In spite of this obvious benefit, none of us could stand the smell of them. I'm not sure that's shallow (the smell thing, not the hooter thing); if the most beautiful flower in the world smells like baby poop, you probably won't stick one in your lapel.

Paul

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: sophocleese
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 04:13 PM

Paul S. I like that idea. The girls with bigger hooters started smoking to cut down on the number of guys pestering them simply because of their boobs. Clever of them...

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Scotsbard
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 04:20 PM

Sounds like the kid knows what he wants ... and smoking gets to be expensive as well. One of our local pubs is selling out the no-smoking shows regularly, which is a real treat.

... umm ... Marion ... does fish count as meat? ~S~

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 04:24 PM

Dear Chet,

I think that precisely because smoking is a health issue, it is also a character/values issue. Unless someone became deeply addicted to cigarettes before it was common knowledge how unhealthy it is - and I don't think that could be true of many people of my generation - their decision to smoke communicates something (and something very important to me) about how much they value their own lives and the health of the people in their immediate airspace. It's not about how their clothes smell, it's about how their attitudes toward life smell.

I think there's a difference between insisting on perfection and having some standards. In your post you mention a difference between marijuana and other drugs; can I assume that you wouldn't take a hard drug user to be your best friend or (hypothetically) your wife? If so, then you must think it isn't necessarily shallow to have standards.

Thanks for the discussion,

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 04:27 PM

... meat? hell, studies have proven that vegetables are the highest form of life on the planet; they are completely telepathic in their communication and feel the pain not of one another but of their lesser, distant cousins in the animal world as well. I have therefore sworn off vegetables and only eat the meat of those animals who eat only meat, until I can figure out how to extract sustenance from the sun.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Mbo
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 04:47 PM

Rick, I agree with your son. Being 20, myself, his words make sense to me, I wouldn't not date someone who smoked. I deal with second-hand smoke every day, and can't stand it. A female friend of mine once said that she always made it visible when she was around a smoker to hold her breath and say "Excuse me, some of us actually breath OXYGEN!" I also would never date anyone with a foul mouth (certainly not one as bad as 'Spaw's! *BG*) Girls today swear as much as men, sometimes ever worse, and use them as euphenisms for "um" instead of when one is truly angry. Bad in the good old days, just finding someone who loved you was important enough, but today you've got so many more issues. I also would NOT date a girl who didn't like folk music. No sir!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Peter T.
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 04:48 PM

What have character/standards/values got to do with love's lunacy? That is fine for Rotarians. "A Midsummer Night's Dream" said about all that needs to be said about it. They might drive you crazy, steal all your money, make you leave town, but "values"? Take out a Billie Holliday album sometime (heroin addict), and give it a whirl. The whole idea is ridiculous.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 04:57 PM

I agree with you Peter T. If I fell in love with someone who enriched my life, the smoking thing would be of little insignificance. Though, caring deeply for this man would generate concern about his long term health and I would probably make that gently known.

I was in a relationship with someone who was on heavy medications for Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD). The 'cocktail' of drugs he was taking had many side-effects and I was concerned about his liver. Over the 3 years we were together, he gradually weaned himself off the medications and though we are not together anymore, I know he has maintained being drug free.
I never nagged. The change came about from genuine concern and being in a supportive relations.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 04:59 PM

ooops, edit at the end
supportive relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Chet W.
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 05:35 PM

Marion, Suppose someone had been in a terrible accident, say while bicycling without a helmet, and was thereafter confined to a wheelchair. Obviously their choices led directly to their health issue. And suppose further that this person had the heart of a poet, the passion of a saint, and the wisdom of the Buddha. Would they be off your list? I'm not defending tobacco or any other drug use as being a great thing, I'm just saying that when it is practiced it is not necessarily a character flaw or a "values" thing. I think that a lot of people respond to trendy public sentiment or their own insecurity or their own delicate sense of smell to eliminate people, and that's not a good enough reason for me, and it's not fair any more than it is to discriminate against people whose skin color doesn't match their sofa. Such discriminating folks would be awfully lonely in another time or place.

Chet

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Bert
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 05:39 PM

Where do you folks get the idea that one 'chooses' a partner;-)

My preconceived ideas were 'someone thin who could sing'. I didn't get either but I'm happier than I have ever been in my life.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Mick Lowe
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 06:03 PM

Heck you lot..
As my old Grannie used to say.."Advice to girls.. always carry a jar of petroleum jelly.. stops you smokin'"
Love is love is love
Screws you up, spits you out, but you always go back for more
You ain't going to live for ever, so make the most of what time you've got
Here endeth the lecture
Mick

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Chet W.
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 06:07 PM

I'm with you guys.

Chet

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 06:50 PM

Well I've been married so long this issue is totally beyond my consideration! But I must say, now that I brought this up ... a woman I knew well, liked and worked with, one day asked me, while we were out to lunch, if I minded if she smoked - I told her I didn't mind if she smoked, but I minded that she smoked! She took my comment in the light it was meant to be taken, a mildly humorous yet pointed remark. Her smoke didn't bother me, but I was a bit disappointed (for her sake) that she was a smoker.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Llanfair
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 07:10 PM

Er, Marion, how do you smoke pot without tobacco? I've never used the stuff myself, but I am told that it is necessary so that the drug burns properly.
I envy your idealism, I hope you find the person that you are looking for, and that he/she is not too hard an act to follow. Hwyl, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 10:23 PM

Llanfair....one word : Brownies! (of the Alice B. Toklas persuasion)...LOL

Glad my wifey doesn't smoke...much nicer, kissing-wise!

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 10:35 PM

Now that I'm 65, I can afford to be picky. I would not date a smoker,drug user, drunk, dog hater or a republican. And I am well aware of all the fun I'm missing.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: sophocleese
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 10:44 PM

Kendall, are there dog-hating republicans?

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Nov 99 - 10:51 PM

Damn, Kendall! I don't smoke, don't drink, love dogs, and ain't Republican and I have a helluva lot of fun! Maybe you oughter look elsewhere?**BG**

Marion, good luck. My son is two years older than you and last I knew had finally quit the nasty weed after starting, without my knowledge, at 16. Not many of thegeneral public that I know of, knew of the real danger even back then.

Peter is right; love doesn't take into account all of the ideals we dream of.Rog is my thrid husband; we've been together 21 yrs. and I never would've picked him out of a lineup to be my soulmate. He also smokes. I hate it, I tell him to not breath on me and our kisses are short. Nagging has't done any good. It is a horrible addiction which can be extremely hard to kick, so I try to be patient. Part of me hopes that his tough French Canadian genes keep him insulated from the ravages of smoking and the other half of me wants to kick him in the arse and make him quit out of fear of being alone when I am older, due to the effects of this habit. My sister's ex left her with a son to raise alone, when he died of emphysema.

Life is not as cut and dried as we'd like it to be. Although we can hope to find someone of the same tastes, desires, and goals in life as ourselves, sometimes the Greater Scheme of Things, has something else in mind for us, like my Rog; or Bert's Tree.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Bert
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 11:16 AM

Kat,

Tree gave up smoking just over a year ago. She just up and quit cold turkey.

Don't nag Rog about it. Just let it be, he'll get there when he's ready.

Bert

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: kendall
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 01:06 PM

a dog hating republican would be totally unacceptable. Let me clarify something..if the love of my life smoked, I would not leave her because of it, but, thats another matter. Given a choice, I would not get seriously involved with a smoker.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 02:20 PM

LOL, kendall. Thanks, Bert, I will. He does go outside and has for years, so at least it isn't in the house or in teh car with me. And, he did recently agree to go let the doc listen to his lungs, so....I will try to be patient. Good for Tree!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 02:45 PM

Very thought-provoking, folks. I can't help but wonder who are really the hopeless romantic fools: those who say that love is blind and unpredictable so I shouldn't try to name my terms, or those who say to keep faith that the right person is out there and so I shouldn't settle for anyone else.

Maybe someday when I'm as old as you gang, I'll know. But you'll probably be dead by then so I'll get the last laugh anyway...:)

I can't help but think of what my mentor, Marge Simpson, told her daughter: "Most women will tell you that it's no use trying to change a man. These women are quitters!"

And I can't help but think of what she said when she learned her son had become a vampire: "Today he's drinking people's blood...tomorrow he may be smoking!"

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Michael K.
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 03:43 PM

I believe Steve Martin summed it up best.

''Do you mind if I smoke?''

''I dunno. Do you mind if I fart?''

Bottom line I guess, if that if hormones and total attraction are running rampant, a little bad breath is not going to deter a red blooded, heterosexual male. (Just feed her some Clorets first.)

What about kissing someone with wine breath or beer breath? (grin) Same difference if you ask me.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: sophocleese
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 04:09 PM

Then there was the guest at our house one lunch time who, when my father started his post prandial pipe, proclaimed loudly "I'd as soon masturbate in public as smoke in public!" My father retreated to the porch.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: kendall
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 04:30 PM

a young secretary was having lunch in a local restaurant. After eating, she lit up a cigarette. An old woman in the next booth said "I'd rather commit adultry than smoke!" the secretary said "So would I. but, I only get an hour for lunch."

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 04:53 PM

Neat thread... my 0.02...

I smoke, I drink, No other drugs though, I eat meat raw when I can get it, and I wear vegitarian pelts in winter! LOL!

To quote Robert Heinlien (sp?) by way of Stan Rogers... When sampling life, take big bites... Moderation is for monks...

sophocleese: I'd tell the guest to sit out on the porch while my dad finished his pipe...

Marion: I have a hard time thinking of someone more maladjusted than Marge Simpson! LOL! And I as well have a tough time seeing the difference between pot smoking and tobacco smoking?!? Isn't that called a double standard?!? And I believe that, at the same time, love is blind, yet there is someone out there for everyone... If ya'd told me 10 years ago that I'd be married to a woman who's in business (getting her MBA, I'm getting my PHT) I'da laughed till I puked!!

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 06:20 PM

Clinton - great comments! But I do see a big difference between pot smoking and cigarette smoking. Cigarettes may shorten your life, but pot (heavy use, at least) reduces your IQ. I'd rather give up days than brains!

... but then, this is all academic for me; I don't smoke either!

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 07:28 PM

It's an academic difference for me too, since I don't smoke either, but the reasons that I consider pot to be a lesser evil are:

1. While pot isn't exactly calcium-enriched orange juice, it's not as unhealthy as tobacco 2. Pot isn't physically addictive 3. Second hand pot smoke smells better than second hand tobacco (there's my shallow side), and isn't routinely inflicted on other people 4. Pot has alternative therapeutic uses, while tobacco has alternative insecticidal uses.

And for the record, I think Sophocleese's guest was hideously rude... and I'd rather smoke than commit adultery.

Cheers, Marion

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Frank Hamilton
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 09:11 PM

You've hit on one of my pet peeves. Cigarette smoke. I hate it. I've had to put up with it in night clubs and places that I had to play. I've developed a mild emphesema and I have never smoked.

I've observed that people who don't treat their bodies very well tend to treat the planet the same way. Count the amount of cigarette butts on the steps of the office buildings of any major city. In my personall experience the smokers I have known became desensitized to their surroundings and their unhealthy effect on others.

Pot is a total waste of time and does affect your mental capacity. It's as lethal as tobacco in it's own way. I've used pot and regret every time that I have. It has done me no good. It certainly didn't add to my music. And you can get a hangover from pot. Most potheads are pretty ridiculous to listen to in conversations.

Marion, there's nothing wrong about standards for finding a mate. Someone who abuses their body is a possible candidate for abusing you.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: sophocleese
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 11:15 PM

Yes that guest was rude. She was also very funny. For the record my Dad quit smoking many years ago, about five years after that lunch, and he remembers that meal time with great humour.

And Frank what you say about treating the planet badly rings true in our local park. Smokers seem to think the public beach is a public ashtray. I have fantasies of dumping my kitchen scraps on their front lawns the way they dump their butts on our beach.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Chet W.
Date: 01 Dec 99 - 11:16 PM

Many of the great minds in human history had weaknesses that could be called bodily abuse. In this century alone we have seen Hemingway blow his own brains out after decades of indulgence, Jack Kerouac drank himself to death, Charlie Parker died from heroin, FDR and Churchill (sp) both smoked cigars. Somebody, probably a lot of them, have said they'd rather go to hell than to heaven because the people would be so much more interesting. If you've seen smokers throw their butts on the ground, do you get to generalize and decide that they all do it, even if only when no one is looking? Is this different from any other kind of generalizing? I have no argument about the legitimate health concerns that people have expressed here. No one should impose smoke or anything else on another, unwilling or unwise person. But I guess it's just a leftover from my youth, when I learned to question all authority and that one orthodoxy is about the same as another. I've attended and played at dances where if you had a beer or a cigarette or a hamburger you had better damn well go and hide yourself when you do it, and I couldn't help comparing this with the historical description of folk dances, which were basically parties where people drank, chewed, and whatever. In Irish Ceilis and Bothys of days gone by, do you think they meditated silently with Enya humming across a room with air as clear as bottled spring water? Today we want everything sanitized, and we pick and choose the parts that we can put up with in out daily lives and our neat homes and apartments. A Commanche blanket looks great on the wall, but how many are even interested in the kind of nature-centered culture that made them, let alone be willing to practice such? A large group of left-wing political types here in the seventies, of which I was a member, decided (not including me) that they were Sufis. The extent of it was that they had circles and group hugs that ended in "Ommm".

I'm not telling anyone to drink or smoke or to endanger their own health by hanging around smoky rooms. I have just so often seen this as more of a judgement of character than a health issue, and that is foolish and wrong. Will we now ban Hemingway for not being a good role model? I suspect so, if he and his work are not just forgotten altogether, as they are in today's literature classes.

Sometimes we give our culture away because it doesn't quite smell right. Sorry if I made anyone mad or uncomfortable.

Chet

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 12:11 AM

Chet, I'm not mad. I'm thinking. Which is good, I think. I didn't bother that much about cigarette butts until I had babies small enough and curious enough to pick them up and try and eat them. Suddenly I noticed them all over the place. I don't think all smokers are evil planet polluting demons, but I do think most that I have seen don't think twice about throwing butts on the ground. Such absent-minded dumping, when you are super sensitive to everything that a baby can get into, is intensely irritating. We all have our personal areas of persnicketyness. Some smokers are probably appalled at the way I chew my nails. However mixed in with my fantasies of chucking wilted lettuce leaves and egg-shells on the lawns of smokers were attempts to design vandal-proof ashtrays. Maybe I'll just label some old tuna tins and leave them on the picnic tables, but then I might be accused of littering.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 09:33 AM

Physical traits, habits, opinions, parentage, race, religion........for anyone that believes these have something to do with love and the perfect partner, well......Thanks for the chuckle!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Roger the skiffler
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 09:47 AM

My other half smoked when we met but only a couple a day, usually small cigarillos, though there is a photo of her on our wedding day in full fig smoking a proper cigar, but after recurring bronchitis each winter she gave up and now we share all our vices: food , drink, jazz,drink, folk,drink, blues, drink ... (though I'm the only one who farts, allegedly).
RtS

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: kendall
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 12:25 PM

I have never meant to make a character judgement of people who smoke.. I do, however, ask where they get the right to pollute the air that I MUST breathe. I MUST breathe..they do not HAVE to smoke. I have the same problem behind a bus or big truck spewing out great clouds of toxic fumes into the air that I MUST breathe.

Winston Churchill smoked cigars..so? he never polluted the air near me, so, why should I care what he did? There is a story about him, one of many, He once grew a mustache, and a female MP, probably Lady Astor, said "I dont like your mustache any more than I like your politics!" To which he replied, "Dont worry madam, you will never get close to either."

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 01:50 PM

Hi Chet,

I'm not saying I wouldn't dance with a smoker, or read a smoker, or vote for a smoker; I'm saying that I wouldn't marry one.

Unlike Kendall, my main reason for this is not how the man's smoking would affect me personally (health-wise, financially, or aesthetically) but how the man's smoking would affect his compatibility with me.

Yes, that's a character judgement. I don't think character judgements are necessarily bad things: have you ever hired a babysitter?

And in defense of this particular character judgement, I will lay out my three main premises so you can tell me which point(s) you're disagreeing with.

1. Somebody who chooses to smoke has a low level of respect/love for their own body (and by using the word "chooses" I am excluding people who are addicted and want to quit but are having a hard time doing so).

2. The level of respect/love that a person has for their own body is one element of that person's [character/values/standards/priorities/goals/personality/philosophy/whatever you want to call it].

3. When choosing a husband, I can and should take their [character/values/standards/priorities/goals/personality/philosophy/whatever you want to call it] into consideration.

A number of people on this thread have denied my third premise, but I'm not convinced. I suspect that everybody has some mimimal standards that govern who they allow themselves to fall in love with, even if those standards are very different from mine or if they've never consciously spelled them out. Surely, Chet, there is something that your wife could (hypothetically) do that would make you stop wanting to be with her; and if (God forbid) you're ever in the market again, I'm sure there is some behaviour that would make you summarily rule out a prospect.

And getting back to an old post of yours: no, I certainly wouldn't rule out a man because of reckless cycling in the past; heck, I've smoked tobacco in the past. But if he rode recklessly in the present, it would certainly raise a warning sign in my eyes, especially if he had a tendency towards other reckless behaviours. I wouldn't be able to help wondering if he would make our kids wear seat belts or not. The difference between smoking and other less-than-ideal behaviours is one of degree; since smoking is such a flagrant insult to the body, I have a firm policy against it, but for the lesser evils it's a harder call. Since we're on the traffic motif: would you want to partner up with a woman who routinely drove drunk and made no efforts to fix that problem?

Love, Marion

PS. One of my roommates married a man who was dying of cystic fibrosis. I admired her strength, courage, and depth of love to be able to overcome her evolutionary instincts and do that. I don't know if I'd be strong enough to do that. But if his doom was self-inflicted, it would be a different story, both for her and in my eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 01:57 PM

Frank, thanks for your support, but I think you may have gone a little far in implying that smokers are more likely than the average population to be wife-beaters. God knows I'm no big fan of smoking, but I've seen that some of the nicest people are smokers... and I think it's a little harsh to suggest it leads to violence.

I had been pondering whether or not to give pot a try, but I think I won't. I'm starting to hear from people that pot does have a lingering effect on your brain even when done infrequently, and your account is another strong vote against it.

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Marion
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 02:00 PM

Chet! Sorry, upon rereading I realized that my "God forbid you're in the market again" could be radically misinterpreted. I meant God forbid that anything happen to your wife. But if you were on the market, of course it would be a gain for the rest of us. Unless you smoke, of course. :)

Marion

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: Cara
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 03:40 PM

No smokers weighing in on this thread I see? Well, allow me to be the first. It's irritating to me to see how many times "smokers" have been referred to in this thread as if we're one huge cow-like herd who can be easily lumped together. You don't like smoking? It seems as though it should be easy enough to avoid, given the few public spaces that are left open to smokers these days. You don't like to go into smoky pubs? I don't like sitting down at a bar next to someone who makes a face when I light a cigarette. I try to be conscientious and respectful of other people's sensitivity to smoke, but it is my right to smoke in areas that are not designated as non-smoking, and I'm taking it. I really, really try to be a nice smoker, but you would not believe how rude people can be. Holding your breath and saying, "excuse me, but some of us breathe oxygen!"? How rude. There are just so few occasions when rudeness is called for.

Smokers who litter are another matter; littering is not cool in any circumstance. Nor is smoking in a private home if you've been asked not to. But in a bar, or the smoking section of a restaurant, or at an outdoor cafe? Don't go if you don't like it.

Now, do I wish I hadn't started smoking? Absolutely. Have I tried to quit? Yes, but obviously not hard enough. Saying that "cigarettes are addictive" doesn't really do justice to how dependent we addicts are. That's not a good thing, but once you're there...

It does make social stuff harder. I hate sneaking out the door to smoke at non-smoking venues or work functions, and I am incomplete without gum and perfumed lotion to mask the smell. Dating non-smokers is a challenge too, since you want to be minty-fresh for those spontaneous smooches. And, even though my Janis Joplin voice is fun in the morning shower, I'm aware that it will ruin what voice I ever had.

But I really hate the way some non-smokers talk about smokers. I make smartass remarks about how smokers are just cooler people, but I never really mean it. Maybe it's true though, and being a persecuted outgroup will finally lead us to cohere and rise up...

Just kidding, of course. I have a love/hate relationship with my cigarettes, for all of the obvious reasons. It varies from day to day. But I hate coming across venues where non-smokers pat each other on the back and talk about how smokers smell bad, and are thoughtless, and unloveable. That's me you're talking about here folks, and who knows who else on the Forum? Or in your office? Do you think smokers don't know that it's an unhealthy habit that really annoys some people? We do, I promise. But please be polite and limit your personal remarks to smokers who are obviously being inappropriate (i.e., breaking a law, or in your home or car) and just let the rest of us be.

Subject: RE: BS: boys won't date girls who smoke
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Dec 99 - 03:58 PM

It's the generalisations that'll get any of us in trouble. My smoking Rog has been called the kindest man on earth by several people who've met him. Gawdess knows I have pushed him far and hit some of his buttons with no violent repercussions. Smoking doesn't make him a terrible or mean person, just addicted.

Marion, IMHO, you are wise not to try pot. I never have. My sister was married to a brilliant journalist who baked it in brownies, smoked it, etc. all through college and it did seem addictive and it did seem to have permanently effected his mental abilities. I have friends who swear by it, though, and I do not think it should be criminalised anymore than alcohol. I also feel differently about it being used for medicinal purposes, such as for glaucoma and pain from end-stage cancer.

kat