BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 12:44 PM

And paranoid about the right things, Bruce. ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 04:57 PM

OK, if nothing but to get Keith off the other thread I will, once only, go through my reasoning. The gist is here in Keith's comment

Dave, in reply to
"publicity that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet." you said,
"No it doesn't. It is on mainstream media as well. Or did I dream I saw it the BBC and in the papers? "

In his usual manner Keith has gone on (and on and on and on) here and in other threads that because I have not explained why I hold this opinion, it is not to be taken seriously. So here is that explanation.

Mainstream media has become a tool for manipulating the general public, used by governments and power brokers for their own ends. That is not just my opinion, it is that of many people including the afore mentioned Noam Chomsky. Because we are unaware of the extent or reasons of this manipulation there is nothing that comes out of the media that we can trust. We also know full well that the jihadists are publicly portrayed in the mainstream media as evil. Some people will take this as an invitation to hate them and all they stand for, including Islam. Other people, primarily young Muslims, suffer the consequences of this on a regular basis and this leads them to seek out alternative ways of fighting back. While the mainstream media may not be directly involved in recruitment they should take some responsibility for creating the conditions to make these young people take these desperate measures.

I know full well that Keith will say something along the lines of 'Ah - but they do not actually recruit' but, to be honest, I do not give a shit any more. Anyone with any sense knows full well what my comment was aimed at. Keith, on the other hand, will happily try to score points and 'win' nit-picking points while people die in their droves.

That is all I am prepared to say on the matter and I am now out of this thread. If you want to respond Keith, do it here stop stalking me on other threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 05:35 PM

Dave,
We also know full well that the jihadists are publicly portrayed in the mainstream media as evil.

I think we all agree that the IS jihadists are evil.
Right Dave?
BBC never refers to IS as Islamic State, but always qualifies it as "self styled" or "so called" or similar.

They will not refer to those jihadists as "extremists" or "terrorists" but only as "militants."

How would any of that encourage someone to go and join them?
How would it radicalise anyone?
Do you have any evidence or support from anyone else that it does?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 05:43 PM

Yup, KoAH:

Muslims Bad.

Christians Good.

Now, go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: mayomick
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 08:40 AM

Keith,
Google "BBC IS" .You'll find links to any amount of articles where the Beeb refers to IS without describing the terrorist group as "self styled" or "so called" .
As an example, see this Auntie Beeb article from 7 July, which refers to Islamic State, "IS" , "Isil" or "ISIS" eleven times , without once using a "so-called" or"self-styled" qualification:

The US-led coalition fighting the Islamic State group is "intensifying" its campaign in northern Syria, President Barack Obama says.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33418021

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:07 AM

Mick, it is BBC policy to qualify "Islamic State" as "self-styled" or "so called" and never to refer to them as terrorists in its broadcasts.

I am surprised your google search did not reveal that they have recently been criticised for it by Cameron.

I can provide links if you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:39 AM

Could it be that the BBC refers to groups who carry out military style attacks as 'militants' and groups or individuals who carry out terror attacks (e.g. Tunsia beach massacre) as 'terrorists' ?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:48 AM

In answer to someone linking an article by the BBC referring to Islamic State, "IS" , "Isil" or "ISIS" eleven times , without once using a "so-called" or"self-styled" qualification, Keith answers with it is BBC policy to qualify "Islamic State" as "self-styled" or "so called"

You just could not make this stuff up. But as it my policy not to post on this thread, I have not just done it...

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:55 AM

It isn't BBC policy, neither editorially, stylistically or corporately at all. Correspondents use whatever qualifications they feel necessary to clarify and show objectivity in their reporting.

This is The BBC, not Murdochville.

Why do people have to make things up? Is it because their stance doesn't appeal to educated people of a reasonable disposition, that they have to say things to delay the point their credibility is blown away?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 01:59 PM

BBC Editorial Guidelines.
"Our policy is about achieving consistency and accuracy in our journalism. We recognise the existence and the reality of terrorism - at this point in the twenty first century we could hardly do otherwise. Moreover, we don't change the word "terrorist" when quoting other people, but we try to avoid the word ourselves; not because we are morally neutral towards terrorism, nor because we have any sympathy for the perpetrators of the inhuman atrocities which all too often we have to report, but because terrorism is a difficult and emotive subject with significant political overtones."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/page/guidance-reporting-terrorism-full

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:06 PM

Independent, Thursday.
"In a response to a letter signed by 120 MPs demanding that the BBC stop using the term on the grounds it gives undue credibility to the Islamic extremists, Lord Hall of Birkenhead (Head of BBC) warned that using an alternative would be "pejorative".

But he accepted using the term 'Islamic State' on its own could be misleading and insisted the BBC would "redouble our efforts" to use caveats such as "so called Islamic State group"."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-bbc-must-be-fair-to-isis-head-of-broadcaster-rejects-calls-to-stop-using-term-islamic-state-10359806.html

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:07 PM

I repeat. Correspondents use whatever qualifications they feel necessary to clarify and show objectivity in their reporting.

It's in the document you show a link to.

Notice the words "try to avoid" for that matter.

You confuse editorial guidelines with corporate policy.

Possibly for a reason, but maybe through ignorance and lack of being able to understand what you are reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:07 PM

Did or did not the BBC use the terms IS etc. without the use of 'self styled' or any other qualification in a news article dated 7 July? If so, what value their guidelines?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:29 PM

In the article yes, but not in their broadcasts.
The Head of the BBC disapproves.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:43 PM

"In answer to someone linking an article by the BBC referring to Islamic State, "IS" , "Isil" or "ISIS" eleven times , without once using a "so-called" or"self-styled" qualification, Keith answers with it is BBC policy to qualify "Islamic State" as "self-styled" or "so called" from Dave the Gnome (original emphasis lost)

No, the only use of Islamic State was an idirect quote from Obama in the first sentence. Over half of the references to IS or Isil where direct or indirect quotes. Not using it the other few times would have made it harder to read and run the risk of a reader (particularly one who was mentally transalting) thinking the reference was to something else.

And Keith never said they qualified IS anyway.

You guys would be better at arguing with Keith if you paid attention. The way this reads rather than his link to the editiorial guidelines making me think "Keith was right on this one" I am thinking "Keith wins".

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 03:15 PM

Still in breach of the guidelines. If the guidelines are not followed, what use are they? There was no point in bringing them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 03:23 PM

Look up 'guidelines' in a dictionary and study its usage in such situations. Read the BBC's and consider their purpose and spirit.

In that article it is bad enough using three different terms for the same thing because of the quotations without adding another. The author uses the jihadist group once near the end which both draws the terms together (there being no other indication what sort of entity IS is) and allows injection of what may be a preferred term.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 03:51 PM

Interesting explanation of DAESH which both explains why people want to use it and why the BBC might stand back from that.

I suspect that if all the anglophone politicians started using it BBC would follow suite because not doing so could then taken as a political statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:00 PM

they have to say things to delay the point their credibility is blown away?

NB: KofAH does not have and never has had anything remotely resembling credibility & thus has nothing to be "blown away". Except possibly the fog from his brain - assuming such exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:12 PM

Well the Guest (not me) who said that also said "It isn't BBC policy, neither editorially, stylistically or corporately at al" so they know about credibility being blown away.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 05:54 PM

Apologies. I should not have mentioned such a trivial point against the background of such a tragedy. I have no excuse other than it was just to tempting to be as petty as some of the other posts. I will try harder to not to stoop to their level in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 08:09 PM

Muslims Bad.

Christians Good.

How about:

Christians Bad.

Muslims Worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 09:48 PM

How 'Bout:

Crazy people are crazy people, regardless of nationality or religious persuasion?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 03:56 AM

Dave,
Still in breach of the guidelines. If the guidelines are not followed, what use are they? There was no point in bringing them up.

The only reason we are discussing BBC is because of your extraordinary claim that it is not the internet that draws people in to being radicalised, but reporting by the BBC and mainstream media.

No-one here has agreed with you on it, and no discussion of radicalisation has ever suggested it.

It was discussed on Today programme this morning, and only the internet was identified as an issue in radicalisation.

Will you justify your astonishing claim, or withdraw it so we can move on?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 04:01 AM

"Astonishing claim."

We seem to be evolving to the point of employing rhetoric now.

Who knows, intelligence and rationality may soon follow? I shan't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 04:29 AM

Do some of them want to do for real what they do in computer games ? If so I wonder how many want out when they realise that real blood and dead bodies are not nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 04:47 AM

This was the claim.


"No it doesn't (come from the internet). It is on mainstream media as well. Or did I dream I saw it the BBC and in the papers? The stuff that comes over the internet can, as you have just discovered, be removed quite easily. Do you think for one minute that if the authorities wanted to block certain messages they could not?"

It was perfectly reasonable to question such a claim, and not "petty" at all.

Dave's petty response was to attack me for questioning his opinion.
Since then I have been posted against by his whole gang for not just accepting his strange view without question, even though not one of them has actually said they agree with it.
That is the pettiness.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:02 AM

your extraordinary claim that it is not the internet that draws people in to being radicalised, but reporting by the BBC and mainstream media.

I made no such claim.

Re-read my post, particularly the bit that say It is on mainstream media as well and then tell me when "as well" became "instead of".

Now, what was I saying about trivial point scoring in the light of such a tragedy?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:10 AM

Oh - And to wind back a little further for the people who do not want to wade through all this mire my "as well as" was in response to your the "publicity" that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet.

To make it quite clear, just in case, I do not believe the publicity ALL comes from internet but from mainstream media AS WELL. No more nit picking now, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:29 AM

I am asking you to justify your remarkable claim that BBC and mainstream media reporting leads to radicalisation.
I have not seen that suggestion made anywhere else or by anyone except you.

That is the claim we have been bickering about for two days because you will neither justify nor withdraw it.
You even started a thread about whether you should be asked to justify it!

You should.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:40 AM

Here a Muslim former minister discusses radicalisation.
She refers to religious sources but dwells mainly on the internet and never once suggests that BBC or mainstream media plays any part.

"Lady Warsi, who resigned last summer over the government's "morally indefensible" policy on Gaza, said it was becoming more apparent that people were being radicalised in their bedrooms rather than in places of worship."


"Much resource has gone into making sure websites are taken down, but we are fighting an ever-losing battle with extremist groups. One of the things that [Islamic State] has been incredibly successful at has been using the internet and social networking spaces for their own propaganda."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/22/uk-in-ever-losing-battle-over-online-radicalisation-says-lady-warsi

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:18 AM

I justified it here. You did not accept that justification so there is no point in continuing. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:22 AM

BTW - I notice we are changing the rules again

your extraordinary claim that it is not the internet that draws people in to being radicalised, but reporting by the BBC and mainstream media.

has become

your remarkable claim that BBC and mainstream media reporting leads to radicalisation.

Two completely different constructs meaning two different things. As I have often said but never seem to heed my own advice. Don't play games with a cheat.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:30 AM

The media be it newspapers or tv plays a role in the problem.
Reporting acts of violence like the Tunisia killings draws attention to the cause.The media publishes articles and comments on the background to the situation.Those who are interested look further into what is going on and how the perpetrators justify their actions.
Those who believe that the reasons the perpetrators give are just, may join the cause.
The media plays a small part in some cases but is not a significant factor.
As always there will be arguments about which things play the most significant part.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:35 AM

Yep - Agreed Derrick but I think the medias role is a bit more significant as I explained earlier. But this is an insignificant part of the argument compared to the killings. I'm out of here again.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:36 AM

"In 'Terror and the Oxygen of Publicity' Gordon Corera, the BBC Security Correspondent, examines the jihadists' social media strategy, the attempts to combat it, and how media organisations tread the fine line of giving publicity to terrorists and reporting the news."

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans brass crucifix
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 07:03 AM

Leave him alone Dave! He ain't worf it!

Arguing over which medium causes radicalisation is like me wondering which baked bean caused the fart I did earlier.* Young people of any upbringing don't see The BBC as any more or any less objective medium as whatever social media they choose tells them.

Thinking that most of the population have trains of thought and reasoning that sad old men recognise merely increase the senility displayed by some here. Not to mention the self righteous bullshit.

*(Costa, Dorchester main drag, near Marks & Sparks.)

Mind you, it was rather spectacular. Mrs Musket still isn't talking to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 08:11 AM

I justified it here.

No you did not!
You rambled about the media being a government tool to manipulate the public!!!
You rambled about jihadists being portrayed as evil by the media, which should turn people against them!??

Here is your whole "justification."
There is nothing there to justify blaming BBC and mainstream media for radicalisation.

"Mainstream media has become a tool for manipulating the general public, used by governments and power brokers for their own ends. That is not just my opinion, it is that of many people including the afore mentioned Noam Chomsky. Because we are unaware of the extent or reasons of this manipulation there is nothing that comes out of the media that we can trust. We also know full well that the jihadists are publicly portrayed in the mainstream media as evil. Some people will take this as an invitation to hate them and all they stand for, including Islam. Other people, primarily young Muslims, suffer the consequences of this on a regular basis and this leads them to seek out alternative ways of fighting back. While the mainstream media may not be directly involved in recruitment they should take some responsibility for creating the conditions to make these young people take these desperate measures."

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 08:17 AM

Derrick,
Reporting acts of violence like the Tunisia killings draws attention to the cause.

Nonsense!
That is their role.
Such things have to be reported, or would you have such news suppressed.

Acts of political mass murder obviously get reported, and the normal reaction of decent people is revulsion, not a determination to join in continue the killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 09:09 AM

Kieth,
      The very reason for reporting is to draw attention to the event.
The perpetrators are carrying out the act in the name of their cause.
Reporting it gives the perpetrators the publicity they are seeking for their cause.
Nowhere do I say or imply that the news should be suppressed.
Of course normal decent people are upset by it,other people may think it a victory for their own twisted version of reality and go on to do similar things themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 10:16 AM

I know, Musket, but such twisting and distorting of the truth does need to be pointed out. One final thing I think really sums it up,

and the normal reaction of decent people is revulsion, not a determination to join in continue the killing.

So, obviously no decent person would join this organisation or continue the killing. Just young Muslims...

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 10:29 AM

Why is it OK for Derrick to put:

"Of course normal decent people are upset by it,other people may think it a victory for their own twisted version of reality and go on to do similar things themselves. "

But twisting and distortion for Keith to put:

"and the normal reaction of decent people is revulsion, not a determination to join in continue the killing"

??

If you have the opinion that Keith means something different to Derrick then I think you need to explain that.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 10:40 AM

It was not twisting and distorting for anyone to put it. I was twisting and distorting another's words to show how it is not at all nice. The meaning from both phrases is obvious in just the same way as my comment was. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 10:54 AM

No. I don't get it. There is nothing to suggest that all but a tiny number of people do not react with revulsion. And in the circumstances you would expect that tiny number to be Muslims.

Try drawing a parallel with the Omagh bombing. Who would the tiny number not reacting with revulsion to that be ?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 11:20 AM

I remember how you twisted my words in your own thread about this dave.
Twice.

Derrick, IS do not rely on mainstream media to inform their audience of their killings, they broadcast their own slick hi-tec propaganda over the internet.
Those with an interest do not believe or trust the mainstream media anyway.

Dave,
So, obviously no decent person would join this organisation or continue the killing. Just young Muslims...

No decent person would join in the beheadings, crucifictions, burnings, sex slaving, ......
Or do you think that decent behaviour Dave?

They are not all young. A recent British family who went included people in their 70s.

Anyone who was not a Muslim would be put to death as soon as they arrive, so yes they are Muslims, but some are recent converts.
Ethnic white British. They are said to be among the most fanatical.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 12:02 PM

Keith,
      IS or whatever it is politically correct to call them this week,
have their own propaganda regime as you so correctly point out,any publicity ,or reporting of their activities, never the less, helps to keep them in the public eye which is where they want to be.
Those with an interest see any critical comments made in the media as further proof of a hatred of Muslims,they don't need trust or belief in the media to believe that.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 12:09 PM

Only like for like Keith. After all, I am only being fair :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 12:46 PM

Those with an interest see any critical comments made in the media as further proof of a hatred of Muslims,they don't need trust or belief in the media to believe that. I assume by "Those with an interest" you mean IS sympathisers.

Do you think British Muslims would travel so far across the world to fight other Muslims if there was nothing about the fight in the mainstream media ?

As an aside, I suspect that there are a lot of followers of Jesus who would get irritated if they were repeatedly all lumped together as 'Christians' despite their different cultures, traditions and doctrines.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 01:05 PM

I was using Keith's terminolgy, if that was whom he meant yes.
I assume the Muslims who you refer to who travel to fight other Muslims are going to help others fight against IS.
I cannot speak for them or the ones who go to fight with IS

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 01:39 PM

Latest news:
"All British nationals are being urged to leave Tunisia as a further terror attack is "highly likely", Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond has said.

Mr Hammond said there was no suggestion of a "specific or imminent threat", but said the Foreign Office was advising against all non-essential travel there."

Here