BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia

Subject: BS: Beach massacre
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 02:18 AM

The first of our dead are being flown home today.
Most of those killed were British.
The killer is believed to have singled out British victims.

It is outrageous that we are prevented from discussing this, our worst loss of life since 7/7 bombings ten years ago.

I call on moderators to delete inappropriate posts but not to expunge the whole issue from the record.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:07 AM

If you would like to discuss a subject at Mudcat, suggest that you not include a discussion of moderator actions. The previous thread on the beach massacre included very little information about the massacre, and a lot of criticism of moderators. Our moderators do their best, but it's impossible for them to defend themselves in open discussion. If you want to discuss moderator actions, ask me or Max or a moderator privately.

---

A single gunman armed with a Kalishnikov rifle and grenades killed 38 people on a beach in Tunisia on Friday, 26 June. The gunman was killed by police after the shootings, and several co-conspirators were arrested. 30 of the victims were identified as British citizens, and 3 were Irish.

I spent three weeks visiting my sister in Egypt in May, 2012, just before Morsi was elected. There was political unrest at the time, but I never felt unsafe. And it was very nice to visit the monuments without having to deal with crowds. Prices were very cheap, too. It cost me $750 for the three weeks, including a cruise on the Nile.

But I wonder if I'd feel safe visiting any Islamic country now, three years later. I hope things come to a resolution soon, but there's really not much hope for that, I think.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:19 AM

These horrible events seem to be more and more common, shootings, beheadings, executions. How are fanatics gaining so much influence in the world and why can't they be stopped ?
There are parts of the world where I would not feel safe today, a pity really but too much violence to risk going dangerous places.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:22 AM

Thanks Joe.
There was also a thread with a title something like "Hate crime or terrorism"

We are blighted with people who post inappropriate stuff.
They should not cause threads do be expunged.
There are other ways to deal with them.

Some dead are still not identified, and more British are expected to be among them.

Tunisia was the one democracy to emerge from the Arab Spring, which actually started with them.
Unfortunately, they border Libya which now has a strong IS presence.
Also unfortunately, the economy is highly dependent on tourism which now faces a bleak future.

All the survivors praised the way the hotel staff and other locals tried to help them.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:32 AM

They are not so much gaining influence but gaining notoriety because they are getting the reaction they want. Like this thread. As long as people panic and continue believing that we are going to hell in a handcart then they will continue doing it. As to why they cannot be stopped, they can. But not by continuing down the path that has failed for so long. This article goes a long way to explaining why while this one goes on to explain how ISIS will ultimately not succeed. Seemingly contradictory but both containing elements that need to be considered.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:32 AM

Unfortunately, this is a combination of the "Peace Dividend" we all hailed and the wonderfully open forum that is the internet, that we all hail.

Unforseen consequences? No, unconsidered outcomes IMNSHO.

but like my discussion on driverless cars we could have discussed "what ifs" and some of us would have seen this coming. And some would have poo-pooed. Such is life.

Personally I find holidaying in my own country preferable on many counts, it is safer (relatively) but easier to understand when things are abnormal. And there are Folk Festivals I have not been to yet. We hop on a bus the day before, often, and see towns and countryside barely (or never) seen.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:44 AM

Keith,

We are blighted with people who post inappropriate stuff.
They should not cause threads do be expunged.
There are other ways to deal with them.

Joe has already said that discussion of moderator actions is a no go. Why continue to do it? Just let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:52 AM

People can post links to weighty-sounding "solutions" that they can't define themselves, but I can't say I see much hope for the solutions linked to above - which I can't define, either.

The situation in the Middle East is very complex, and there are no easy answers. No doubt, much of the problem had its origin in European and American imperialism of the 19th Century, and European and American warfare in the 20th. But those things are done, and now we have to solve the problems they solved.

Can't say I know the answer, and I can't make a link to a credible solution, either. Probably Ann Coulter knows how to solve it.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:02 AM

What the world needs is a global moderator. (Oh did I just swear?).

Like the UN. That will sort the problem, won't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:03 AM

The situation in the Middle East is very complex, and there are no easy answers.

That was the point of the links, Joe, and why I said "both containing elements that need to be considered." There certainly are no easy answers and why people chose to flog them to death on here is beyond me.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:13 AM

This is becoming that classic that African cessenists once described as: Discussions about discussions. What is needed is "Deus ex Machina" aka moderators. Which is why we roll our eyes at times like these. Looking for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 05:16 AM

IS arose out of the Syrian civil war which can not be blamed on the West.
It has mainly concerned itself with the centuries old Sunni-Shia split, which again can not be blamed on the West.

It is by far the most serious threat there is to peace in that region and beyond.
That is why people want to talk about it Dave, and why we should be allowed to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 05:21 AM

this one goes on to explain how ISIS will ultimately not succeed.

It provides an opinion of why it will not succeed in Saudi only.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 05:29 AM

They are just articles indicating the complexity of the situation. Sorry if they do not fit in with your opinions. And you are STILL on about the moderation policy when it has been specifically stated that you should not. Give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 06:13 AM

"IS arose out of the Syrian civil war which can not be blamed on the West."
ISIS arose out of the Arab Spring, and the failure to act on what was happening in Syria, particularly in Homs, it was very much the fault of The West, and the U.N.
Syria started as a protest over what had been happening there for decades - the west was fully aware of the crimes of the regime, yet the West said or did nothing to prevent it - in fact, the Assad regime was considered one o their greatest allies.
Russia and China vetoed action on Syria, but, had there been oil involved in the Syrian situation, those vetoes would nnot have been worth squat - plenty of past examples to go by.
Not only did the West fail to act, but they continued supporting the regimes being protested against, both politically and in selling them arms.
The ongoing problem of U.N. vetoes is that they have been used far too many times to protect War Criminals and human rights abusers - the U.S. is one of, if not the, greatest culprits - a human rights abuser itself, it has continually fueled an incendiary situation in the Middle East with its blanket support for one of the aggressors.
Discussions such as this one become equally null and void when participants condemn one side while excusing the other.
I have little doubt that this is what will happen here - the green shoots of appeasement are already beginning to show.
All acts of terrorism, human rights abuses, injustices, massacres... carried out in the name of one god or one religion or another are intrinsically evil - there are no sliding scales to claim that one evil isn't as great as the other, or that, it's not evil because everybody soes it.
To take sides is to become part of that evil
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 06:57 AM

Assad was no better or worse than other Arab dictators.

We did intervene in Libya, we did not in Syria.
The outcome was the same. Islamists exploit the weakened state.

IS is mostly engaged with killing Shia Muslims.
That war has been going on for centuries.

We will never agree on the history, so let's consider what to do in the future.


Why are Arab states, who always object to Western interference, happy to let US and UK fly most of the airstrikes against ISIS.

Guardian 22 hours ago,

"For it is Muslims who are the biggest victims of Isis. They fight the jihadists in Syria, Iraq and Libya, and it is they who hourly die brutal deaths at the hands of Isis. The soul-searching of Muslims in the UK and beyond is now at fever pitch – the question they ask constantly is: what more can they do?"
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/30/islam-leaders-muslims-victims-crimes-uk

The writer does not address the issue of the estimated 700 UK Muslims who have gone to fight FOR IS.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: mayomick
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:11 AM

Keith thinks that the Syrian civil war, out of which the IS group arose , was an internal Syrian affair and IS can't therefore be blamed on the West . Jim likewise thinks that the West didn't intervene in Syria . Isn't there some basis for agreement there, lads in that you both think that ISIS grew under conditions of the West's failure to intervene in Syria?

When I heard David Cameron say that Britain was in a state of "shock and grief " after the Tunisia beach killings, I immediately thought of George Bush's "shock and awe" doctrine. Sure enough, there is a linguistic connection between the words "awe" and "grief" .The two words are "distant relations" according to the online etymology dictionary .

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:25 AM

Why are Arab states, who always object to Western interference, happy to let US and UK fly most of the airstrikes against ISIS.


Errrr. You are in a dispute with your neighbour. You are given the option of either going punching him on the nose or getting Jim, who's interference you always object to, to do it for you. Which do you chose?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:34 AM

Mick, Jim and I did both support Obama's plan for attacks on Assad after his chemical attacks, but had Jim wanted Britain and the West to send troops into Syria from the start.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:37 AM

Look at who is funding the terrorists and ask what it is that they are hoping to accomplish.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:55 AM

"Assad was no better or worse than other Arab dictators."
Yes he was - and why redistrict it to "Arabs" - the West has backed and sold weapons to war criminals of all shapes and sizes - the British Trades Minister has been more than happy to admit as much.
Far from 'not intervening', we actually backed Libyan State terrorism and were happily training Qaddafi's son to take over so that the dynasty could continue.
Isis stepped into the gap left by the west - "mostly engaged with killing Shia Muslims" - are you joking?
Isis is a product of the West's predatory policies and inhuman indifference.
"We will never agree on the history, so let's consider what to do in the future."
We certainly won't while one of us refuses to address it and takes sides.
There is little more to do oter than wring handkerchiefs to catch the crocodile tears unless we recognise that what is happening is happening directly because of hat out governments are doing in our - you shed your tears - we'll try to make sense of the whys and wherefores
"but had Jim wanted Britain and the West to send troops into Syria from the start"
And please don't distort my position by reducing it to "sending troops"
My argument was for a whole tranche of actions, including boycotting, the seizing of property, ostracisation of a family that valued Britis patronage - none of which happened.
I can't remember ever supporting you on anything - your views come with too much of a not-very-well hidden agenda and are seldom what they seem.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 08:09 AM

"Jim wanted Britain and the West to send troops into Syria from the start."
My suggestion was that the West overode the Russian/Chinese veto as a humanitarian measure to stop the likes of Homs - someone (can't remember who!) described that as "fascism".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 08:54 AM

OK Jim.
We disagree on why there is an IS, but we did both agree with Obama's plan, and we were the only ones here who did.

- "mostly engaged with killing Shia Muslims" - are you joking?

No.
They have killed many more Muslims than non-Muslims.
Read that Guardian piece, or any piece about who are IS's victims.

Now, how should we stop their rampage and stop the enticing intelligent kids from respectable families to go and join them?

My suggestion was that the West overode the Russian/Chinese veto as a humanitarian measure to stop the likes of Homs - someone (can't remember who!) described that as "fascism".

No-one did Jim.

I suggest we stop raking over old arguments.
I will not respond to any accusations about old discussions.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 08:56 AM

Your last statement "I will not respond to any accusations about old discussions" is historically inaccurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 09:05 AM

Now, how should we stop their rampage and stop the enticing intelligent kids from respectable families to go and join them?


I have already suggested that cutting off their free publicity may go a long way to stopping their 'rampage'. Trouble is the ones giving them publicity are probably the ones helping to fund it.

As to stopping them enticing intelligent kids from respectable families - It cannot be done because such kids will always rebel. No publicity for the terrorists will move the focus of these rebels to something else as well. Hopefully something more peaceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 09:09 AM

The situation in the Middle East is very complex, and there are no easy answers. No doubt, much of the problem had its origin in European and American imperialism of the 19th Century, and European and American warfare in the 20th.

You're forgetting ham-fisted and counterproductive U.S. intervention in the 21st Century, Joe, as well as 21st Century Israeli imperialism.

IS arose out of the Syrian civil war which can not be blamed on the West.

No Keith, it arose primarly thanks to George W. Bush, "Mad-Dog" Wolfowitz & Dick Cheney and their bogus Iraq war.

I will not respond to any accusations about old discussions.

Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 09:47 AM

One partial solution is for Package Tour operators to issue British holidaymakers with automatic weapons
on arrival in foreign hot spots.
Something small and effective like an Uzi which can be kept handy in the beach bag along with all the other usual sun bathing essentials.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 10:03 AM

"IS arose out of the Syrian civil war which can not be blamed on the West."

No it didn't. It was conceived of in Camp Bucca, an American prison in Iraq where the US were holding senior al-Qaida figures and other captured militants. It was formed in reaction to the Shia-dominant, US-backed government that had ignored the Sunnis.

Camp Bucca concentrated the most wanted insurgents in one place, in safety, and enabled them to form ISIS, to channel the anger of those who had survived the atrocities of Abu Ghraib and other US torture sites.

ISIS are a monster the west have created. They are a vicious, brutal reaction to the vicious, brutal interventionist policies the western allies have pursued. They are a pigeon coming home to roost, but they are bringing the gore to us instead of hiding it away as the western allies have done.

The west has little or no moral high ground, that was frittered away by Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld and their successors; even at home their own societies are riven by slaughter and and violence, some of their own citizens hellbent on slaughter whilst their fellows look on, too afraid to tackle vested interest or too greedy to surrender their own. We even export this sorry, sordid attitude to others at the end of a gun.

You couldn't engineer a fuck up like this if you tried, it could only be achieved through stupidity, greed, intolerance and plain nastiness, and every side is part of the gorefest.

As for the answer, it'll be lots of dead (mainly poor) people for countless years before we realise we were so distracted by our petty squabbles, boundless capacity for greed and adherence to out-of-date, divisive religions that we have trashed the planet and it's too late do a thing about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 10:21 AM

"I suggest we stop raking over old arguments."
I'm sure you do - you never did too well on them first time around
"but we did both agree with Obama's plan,"
We never agreed on anything - if intervening in the first place was "fascism" Obama's military intervention after Assad started using chemicals (sold to him by Britain) of his own people, must equally be Fascism.
The fact that it was too little, too late underlines that.
I've said over and over how these people should be stopped - stop backing despotic feudalistic regimes by selling them weapons and address the problems of disaffected Muslims who have turned to Isis out of desperation hearts and minds.
"They are a vicious, brutal reaction to the vicious, brutal interventionist policies the western allies have pursued"
Wish I'd put it like that - this is exactly what and why they are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:14 AM

"Simbal Khan, a security analyst based in Islamabad, said that Afghanistan was part of the proxy war being waged across the Muslim world between Saudi Arabia and Iran, which has also supported insurgent groups in Afghanistan, including parts of the Taliban."

Saudi Officials Linked to Jihadist Group in WikiLeaks Cables

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:19 AM

Again, we all disagree with each other about why there is an IS.
We have been over it all many times before.

Dave, the "publicity" that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet.

How do we prevent that, and how do we prevent the next massacre of innocent people?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:27 AM

"Again, we all disagree with each other "
No - you disagree with the rest of us
"We have been over it all many times before."
We have - and nothing has changed
"the "publicity" that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet."
No, people are drawn into Isis by what is and is nor not happening
What do you suggest - another generation or so of trying to achieve a military solution?
What is happening in Israel at the present time is as much a part of the success Isis is enjoying - grist to their mill
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:36 AM

the "publicity" that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet.

No it doesn't. It is on mainstream media as well. Or did I dream I saw it the BBC and in the papers? The stuff that comes over the internet can, as you have just discovered, be removed quite easily. Do you think for one minute that if the authorities wanted to block certain messages they could not? Remember the whole concept was based on a defense network originally.

Besides, you asked the question and I provided an answer. I am not saying it is the full picture but it is my opinion. Why ask the question if you are not prepared to listed to potential answers?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 11:56 AM

"It is worth a mention that, India's Shia population is the world's second-largest after Iran. Unlike the Arab countries, differences between Shias and Sunnis in India are doctrinal, and mainly in areas such as ritual law, theology and religious organisation.

"To counter the increasing Shia influence, a certain section in the Saudi establishment has been propagating Wahhabism in India," says an MHA official in an interview to Sunday Guardian.

In the last three-four years there has been a steady rise in Wahhabi preachers coming to India to conduct seminars."


Saudi pumping millions to promote Wahhabism in India

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 01:50 PM

Dave, much has been written about how people are radicalised.
It is not by BBC and mainstream media.
IS are producing slick, high tech recruiting videos.

If you people think that yours is the only view on why there is an IS, you are kidding yourselves.
Perhaps we would be allowed to discuss it, but I doubt it.

This thread is about the massacre of British and Irish people in Tunisia, and the threat of more massacres.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 02:14 PM

If you people think that yours is the only view on why there is an IS

Of COURSE its not the ONLY one, Keith. But it is the fact based one, the evidence based one, and therefore the correct one.

Now yours, on the other hand........

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 02:16 PM

I think that blaming the west, or for some reason, Israel, is a tragic oversimplification of the scourge of terrorism. There are myriad causes, one of which is Islamic fanatics. The question is how to keep them from killing people. The other question is how to protect people from this lunacy.
Yes, it is a complicated issue but until ordinary people discuss and search for solutions, nothing will change.
   It seems to me that we spend far too much time making excuses for these aberrations than we do in trying to counter them.
    Good people are irrelevant until they act on their disgust at these ritualistic killings.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 02:16 PM

This thread is about the massacre of British and Irish people in Tunisia

No, Keith, your thread is about "those evil, subhuman Muslims" and its about the three-hundredth one on the same topic that you've started.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 02:22 PM

You are wrong Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 03:25 PM

"This thread is about the massacre of British and Irish people in Tunisia, "
I most sincerely hope it isn't - it should be about HUMAN BEINGS being massacred - whatever their origins
As far as I know, there has been no suggestion that they were killed because of where they came from.
Sousse s a popular holiday resort for British tourists, but it could just as easily have been Germans or Americans
You bewail the fact that the victims were British and Irish, if you wish - the rest of us will mourn the loss of human life and try to understand why it happened.
You have been given the obvious reasons for the rise in popularity of radically extreme groups - you can blame the internet, if you wish - lets the West off the hook.
" oversimplification of the scourge of terrorism."
Not in the slightest - every action produces a reaction.
Millions of oppressed Arabs tried to better their way of life by protests
The West sat on its hands, did nothing to help and continued to sell weapons and give respectability to the oppressors.
Within a fortnight of the outbreak of the Arab Spring protests, Cameron hosted a massive arms fair in London, it's main targets, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia.
It is more than likely that the Homs snipers were trained with ammunition.
Britain sold armoured cars and riot control equipment to the Assad regime and later it was found that Britain supplied chemicals which could well have gone into the weapons used against the Syrian people.
Earlier, some of the electronic equipment sold to the Assads were used in his torture chambers.
All this is custom-made to produce a reaction.
As far as Israel is concerned - there are 5 million Palestinian Muslims scattered all over the globe having been driven out and refused the right to return by the regime there.
THere is no indication that these killings were in any way ritualistic - they were the act of a madman.   
As was proved in former Yugoslavia, in Rwanda, in Israel, in the Sabra/Shatila refugee camp and other such places, religious fanaticism is in no way confined to one belief and it is aworld-wide phenomenon.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:00 PM

Surely there is a component of the West's intervention, because the British & French, post WW1, decided to carve up the middle east (aka Ottoman Empire) by some weird geographical system rather than ethnic and religious lines. Hence Iraq has Sunni, Shia and Kurd elements not to mention Christian and Turkey has a Kurdish separatist movement also.

Lawrence of Arabia advised not to do it the way they did. As if he didn't have a lot of inside knowledge!

One thing you can be sure of is that solutions can be engineered if people are prepared to talk to one another. Shouting isn't communication. And guns shout. And both parties have to have a stake in the result if they are to agree. That and they must have truth in their heads. ISIS has a truth in its head, but who's truth is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:07 PM

See, there you go again, Keith. You people. You are kidding yourselves. You think yours is the only view. Etc. The language of confrontation. That seems to be your goal. Goad people then complain when they react. Not once have I said mine is the only view. In fact I have said very clearly that it is a very complex issue with many facets. Just who are "you people" anyway? If you really do not want this thread closed try listening to other people instead of tarring them all with the same brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 04:59 PM

It would be grand Greg of you toOk your own advice

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 05:14 PM

Which advice, Hi? - Or are you confusing me with Dave? Again?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 05:38 PM

Another bloodbath in the Sinai today as Islamic State-affiliated gunmen killed at least 70 Egyptians, mostly soldiers and police.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:05 PM

Jim, this from Daily Mirror,
"Terrorism expert Neil Doyle said reports Rezgui – one of an estimated 7,000 Tunisians to have joined IS ranks – was deliberately singling out Brits was "particularly worrying".

He continued: "The slaughter in Sousse means that Islamic State has perhaps reached one of its main objectives: the mass murder of Britons in retaliation for the limited participation of the UK in military action against it.""
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/tunisia-terror-attack-killer-relaxed-5961141

Dave, obviously I know that mine is not the only view.
You people have all been putting a different one.
Do you accept there are other views Dave, because Greg just stated,
"Of COURSE its not the ONLY one, Keith. But it is the fact based one, the evidence based one, and therefore the correct one."

If you people are unable to make a case reasonably and rationally, and without abuse, you will just get us deleted again.

Is that what you want?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:34 PM

Is that what you want?

That should be obvious by now, stifling debate is the MO of ideologues.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 07:41 PM

Neil who?
At least he is admitting (whoever he is - another "expert", no doubt) that the rise in Islamic terrorism is due to Britain's own actions and not out of the Muslim religion - which is more than you are.
HERE'S YOUR "TERRORIST EXPERT"
Obviously a "real one" who sells his books in "real bookshops".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 08:39 PM

Jim , you need to learn to do proper research. Your kind of talk is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Please put your prejudices aside, do some homework.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 15 - 10:04 PM

Without doing any homework it should be obvious that the blowback revenge by people who had children parents spouses and friends murdered by one or multiple insurgent groups will carry those wounds for many generations to come.

There are examples like the Tutsies and Hutus of healing national or religious war wounds in one generation but I do not know this to have happened in The United States or the middle east.

Not even the confederacy seems to have buried the hatchet after 4 generations.

Will it take 2 centuries or more for middle east civility?
Or is this too an unreasonable question.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 02:25 AM

No-one seems to be thinking of the people of Tunisia in this discussion (I haven't read every post so if anyone has mentioned Tunisia and Tunisians, my apologies). This brutal act may well destroy, or at least severely damage, the Tunisian tourist industry - which, in turn, probably represents a significant part of the Tunisian economy. Many Tunisians, who work in the industry, are likely to be thrown out of work and left poverty-stricken. And poor, workless people are more easily radicalised. There is also the risk of de-stabilising the Tunisian state. Terrorism always has objectives beyond gratuitous slaughter - it is "the war of the flea". This flea with his AK47 may achieve as much as all of the much bigger monsters with their tanks and artillery and their drones and air-strikes. They're all 'paving the way to Hell', of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 03:33 AM

"Jim , you need to learn to do proper research"
You have no idea what homework have done.
These forums of for the exchange of opinions and information - if I have missed something, feel free to fill in the gaps rather than to suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about.
So - you have what I think I know - educate me!
I suggest that "part of the problem" are those who come with no facts, just set agendas
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 03:38 AM

Jim, I heartily agree about those with no facts and set agendas.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:02 AM

Jim, the page you linked to was six years old and has been superseded by events many times since then.
Poor homework!

The current page I provided was from a Left Wing paper which acknowledged the status of the "expert."

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:09 AM

Dave, obviously I know that mine is not the only view.
You people have all been putting a different one.
Do you accept there are other views Dave, because Greg just stated,
"Of COURSE its not the ONLY one, Keith. But it is the fact based one, the evidence based one, and therefore the correct one."

If you people are unable to make a case reasonably and rationally, and without abuse, you will just get us deleted again.


This was addressed to me. Why 'you people' again? Why would you think that I not accept there are other views because Greg said something? What have I done that is either unreasonable or irrational? Where have I abused anyone? Address what has actually been said rather than a mysterious gang of 'you people' and the thread is more likely to survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:25 AM

That's pretty rich coming from you. Your posts are littered with remarks like "you people" and "your gang" etc etc

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 04:59 AM

No abuse from me Raggy.
Or from you Dave.
It is Jim and Greg who just can not or will not engage in any kind of reasoned exchange of views without being abusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:01 AM

It is also rich that you ask if you have ever abused anyone. You have been very nasty on occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:47 AM

Thanks Keith. So why 'you people' when addressing me? Why 'you people' at all? It is ridiculous. If I may take a leaf out of that boot you said

I suggest we stop raking over old arguments.
I will not respond to any accusations about old discussions.

Followed by HiLo saying

You have been very nasty on occasion.

You people say one thing and then do another.

See? Stupid isn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:48 AM

Leaf out of a boot? Wondered what was irritating my fook...

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Cookie wherefore art thou?
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 05:53 AM

What is a "left wing" newspaper? Why give it credence versus any other rag?

Why try to start a thread laying down pompous rules meaning not being able to point out the distortions and not very well hidden agenda Keith is attaching to it?

A gun man massacres lots of people. That is the fact of the matter. He was brainwashed by some religion inspired attempt to control society. That is the rationale of the matter.

So, where do opinions come into it? Other than giving them the oxygen of publicity that they crave.

A wider debate on the dangers of religion on vulnerable minds through suggestion or the impotence and failures of western military ideas might come of it.

But too soon eh? Let's let relatives bury their dead before using them for idealistic point scoring Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 07:15 AM

"Jim, the page you linked to was six years old and has been superseded by events many times since then."
The page I linnked to was about hack journalism and it included your "terrorist expert"
Nice try, but no cigar.
If he has suddenly graduated into being a "real historian", I look forward to receiving the details
The Daily Mirror "left wing"!!!!!
It's an establishment bum-wipe
I suppose that copared to your outlook on life it is possessively revolutionary.
Nothing has changed

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 07:19 AM

"It is Jim and Greg who just can not or will not engage in any kind of reasoned exchange of views without being abusive."
I have not been abusive - show me where I have.
It seems that presentg too many facts is considered "abusive" by some
Now - that abuse I am supposed to have given???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 07:56 AM

You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 07:58 AM

Jim, the Mirror is a Labour paper.
Wiki, "On 4 May 2010, the newspaper printed a picture of Conservative Leader David Cameron with a giant red cross through his face. The headline read "How to stop him" in reference to the general election two days later, thus confirming the Daily Mirror's Labour allegiance. "
" The Daily Mirror was the only leading national newspaper to remain loyal to Labour and Gordon Brown at a time when opinion polls showed them on course for their worst election result since 1983"

Musket,
So, where do opinions come into it?

I am interested in opinions about how to stop them doing it again.

What is a "left wing" newspaper? Why give it credence versus any other rag?

You people dismiss anything appearing in Right of centre papers like Telegraph and Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:10 AM

You people dismiss anything appearing...

Have you not read anything I posted, Keith?

I am interested in opinions about how to stop them doing it again.

Yet when I ventured the opinion that if we denied them publicity it would help to stop it, you dismissed that out of hand. Is it becuase I am one of 'you people' and you dismiss everything we say?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:25 AM

"Jim, the Mirror is a Labour paper."
So what - there's no difference between Labour and Tory nowadadys
Not the point anyway
Your "expert" has been singled out as one of those 'journalists' who is paid to produce 'news' with a pre-decided slant - that is the essence of the link you were given - the Sun was mentioned as one of the newspapers which require such reporting .
Far from being an 'expert' he is a hack - wouldn't matter if he was accepted by 'The Morning Star' or 'Marxism Today' - he and his fellow hacks are paid to manipulate the news.
As a journalist, what he writes is unreliable - you, of all people, can't possible expect anybody to accept him.
Now - that abuse I am supposed to be guilty of...!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:37 AM

Jim, I have looked through you posts on this thread and agree.
No personal abuse.
Please try to keep it up this time.

Jim, you said, "As far as I know, there has been no suggestion that they were killed because of where they came from."

I posted the Daily Mirror quote to show that there had been such a suggestion.
That is all.

Dave, I have read a lot of opinion about how people are radicalised.
You are on your own in suggesting that BBC and mainstream media play any role at all.
Such people do not believe what the media says about IS.

Would you like some stuff to read?
Have you anything at all that supports your idea?
Do you think that this massacre, Charlie Hebdo etc, should be censored from the news?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:42 AM

Guardian last year,
"Young British Muslims who believe they are seen as nobodies in their own country are bound to be attracted by the idea of being heroes elsewhere. And once inside the bubble of an online network dedicated to the same cause, all their pernicious beliefs are reinforced."

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 08:51 AM

Reuters last October,

"The crucial battleground in the radicalisation struggle is the Internet, and it's a fight the authorities have been losing.

Britain has a police unit dedicated to dealing with extremist material on the Internet and British Home Secretary Theresa May recently said authorities had removed more than 30,000 pieces of terrorist material since the start of the year.

But the lack of any international agreement means British police can only deal with content hosted in Britain. Material that is taken down will often crop up again elsewhere."

"They are motivated by images they have seen online, or are lured by the promise of adventure."

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:09 AM

It doesn't matter whether I am on my own or not. It is still an opinion and opinions are what you asked for. To dismiss one out of hand is rude and I suspect you are not really interested in the opinions of other people. Just those that agree with yours.

No I do not want some stuff to read. I have enough to do as it is.

Yes I have stuff to support my opinion but I don't think you are really interested in anything I say.

No, I don't think anything should be censored from the news. I think it should just be reported on factually and not used to make people hate each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:16 AM

"Jim, I have looked through you posts on this thread and agree."
Do not accuse me of it again - it is the type of thing that gets threads closed and you certainly indulge in it yourself
"I posted the Daily Mirror quote to show that there had been such a suggestion."
That report, as I have pointed out, was produced by somebody who is paid to say that sort of thing.
I'm quite sure any rag is capable of producing that sort of garbage.
This is about killing human beings - not 'our own'
Which leaves the rest of your claims hanging.
The idea that young Muslims are taking their cue from the internet is both stupid and dangerous.
Unless the root causes of the rise of Isis are dealt with honestly, they will continue to make the running.
Isis is not a fad - it is the horrific consequence of the cynical nature of The Great Powers to have their own favourite terrorists and to indulge in terrorism themselves when it suits.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans ginger nuts
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:34 AM

Ah.. Did you notice the word "Muslim" come into it?

Oh, it was a quote from a newspaper, silly me. You can't hold the person posting to account if they are quoting.. I should have known.

They aren't Muslims Keith. They are fanatics who have been brainwashed by evil old men who tell them it is a Muslim thing. Plenty of people claim Jesus told them to shoplift, rape, fiddle their taxes.

A bit like the Pope hiding paedophiles in his employment, because perverting the course of justice must be a Christian thing.

Same weird logic.

Anyway, at a wedding last Saturday, I couldn't help noticing a poster in the entrance for children to join their "Young Crusader" club, luring them with the er.. promise of adventure.

It's this linking terrorists with my friends and colleagues who happen to be Muslim that gets my halal goat. Far more criminals behind bars who claim to be christians, so why keep vilifying good people Keith?

Keith?

For the benefit of giving a view, I feel it would be naive to say that not accepting "western values" whatever that means is a route towards supporting murder. It is also naive to say that one religion supports murdering infidels more than another for that matter. All the main ones have a history to be ashamed of.

Most UK people who happen to be Muslim must get fed up with politicians saying they should do more to prevent kids doing awful things. If someone said to me, "You go to pubs, you live near one and you have a cultural need to laugh and joke with friends in them, so what are you doing about binge drinking, vomit in the street and liver failure in younger people?

I'd be at a loss as to what to do.

A bit like my ex secretary Tahir. He tells me how his Imam preaches all the time against ISIS ideals, happily tells his congregation of how he reported an issue to the police once and encourages people to do the same. Ditto his father's Imam in a different town etc etc.

Yes, there are many aspects of religion I can't understand and don't want to. Misogyny, homophobia, instilling a sense of guilt, creating multi tier society and perpetuating controls on communities.

But I no more see today's terrorism as a reason to suspect Muslims any more than seeing atrocities in the name of Jesus a reason to round up Christians.

Given time, both will be footnotes of history. Sadly, it will take a few generations but looking at the fall of christianity in developed countries, it won't take forever.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 09:49 AM

Tunisia is majority Sunni. The country is very tolerant of any and all religions (at this time), so I don't see the attacks as aimed specifically at British subjects. It was likely aimed at interrupting tourism which accounts for about 7% of the GDP. The Tunisian government separates religion and state although it does insist its leader be Muslim, although which faction isn't mandated.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 11:45 AM

Young British Muslims who believe they are seen as nobodies in their own country are bound to be attracted by the idea of being heroes elsewhere.

Young people of any religion and nationality who believe they are badly treated will always be attracted by the thought of someone treating them with respect. That the author of the piece stating that being British or Muslim makes them different to the millions of other young people that have gone before them is an example of mainstream media setting people against each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 11:52 AM

". . . mainstream media setting people against each other."

That is an important statement. However, equally important is to determine who owns the papers/media and see what further agendas they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 12:20 PM

Especially important when said papers/media are owned/run by turds with legs like Rupert Murdoch & Roger Ailes.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 15 - 12:54 PM

I think you are right, #, and we also need to know the relationship of the media owners, the governments and who is actually running what!

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 04:31 AM

# hit the nail on the head there, I think. Tunisia is one of the only places where the Arab Spring to some extent paid off - and it is trying to move towards liberal democracy. Attacking its tourist industry is a sure fire way of undermining this. Then add into the mix poverty, massive youth unemployment and austerity - the sorts of conditions in which extremist groups thrive.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 05:28 AM

Dave,
Yes I have stuff to support my opinion but I don't think you are really interested in anything I say.

I am interested.
That is why I asked.
I have never seen anything to suggest that BBC or mainstream media provides publicity that causes radicalisation, or that BBC reporting is "used to make people hate each other."

An opinion based on no actual knowledge is just a whim from an empty head and deserves to be dismissed.
Please share with us the knowledge that your opinion is based on.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 05:40 AM

They aren't Muslims Keith.

They are all Muslims who have been radicalised.
Unradicalised Muslims say their behaviour is unIslamic.
They say that the unradicalised are unislamic.

It is a subjective judgement whether they are Muslims or not, and I have no opinion on it.

Those at risk of being radicalised Jihadists are Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 06:18 AM

An opinion based on no actual knowledge is just a whim from an empty head and deserves to be dismissed.
Please share with us the knowledge that your opinion is based on.

There is absolutely no point, Keith. As we have all often seen you will twist and turn what I say to suit whatever your agenda is. Pretty much like you implying that I said that BBC reporting is "used to make people hate each other." when I have said no such thing.

And your suggestion that my opinion is nothing more than a ''whim from an empty head' is both derogatory and confrontational. Then you complain that other people get your threads closed.

Unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans ginger nuts
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 06:25 AM

Yeah, and priests that fuck children are radicalised christians whilst the old lass next door is an unradicalised christian.

Any idea how stupid your comment was?

Obviously not.
Bliss eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 06:37 AM

Dave, BBC was the only media you specifically indicted.
I asked if they should censor news about terrorism, and you replied,
" I think it should just be reported on factually and not used to make people hate each other."
I took that to be an accusation.

If anyone wants an opinion to be given serious consideration, they need to support it with something.
I always do.
Can you support your opinion or not?

Musket, you may feel yourself qualified to judge whether someone can be described as a Muslim or not.
I claim no such ability.

IS believe themselves to be Muslims, and at war with non-Muslims and Shia Muslims.

Mainstream Muslims reject them.

Why is it relevant?
I have never, ever suggested that their religion is significant.
Why did YOU bring it up Musket?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 07:12 AM

Yes, I can Keith. But I am not prepared to discuss with you as you distort anything that has been said as you have just shown. I realised that playing any game with a cheat is pointless. If you want to look anything up yourself, use the phrase media manipulation in a Google search. At least that way you will not throw any link I provide back as being unacceptable/too left wing/too right wing/not mainstream/not saying what you want (delete as appropriate)

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 07:19 AM

As another example of your manipulation of what was said. Your question was Do you think that this massacre, Charlie Hebdo etc, should be censored from the news? has now become Dave, BBC was the only media you specifically indicted. I asked if they should censor news about terrorism A question about media in general has become specifically about the BBC. Is it any wonder that no-one wants to play your game any more? You and the media are perfectly suited.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 08:03 AM

Dave, in reply to
"publicity that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet." you said,

"No it doesn't. It is on mainstream media as well. Or did I dream I saw it the BBC and in the papers? "

So, you did express the opinion that reporting in the media, and specifically the BBC, incites people to join IS.

I do not twist anything, you just do not think before you type.

Yes, I can Keith. But I am not prepared to discuss with you

Oh yes.
You could so easily produce stuff, but you choose not to!!

Is it only me your opinion was directed at?
Does no-one get to see why you believe that?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 08:15 AM

National one minute silence today to remember the victims.
Prayers were said during Friday Prayers in mosques.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 09:14 AM

"You could so easily produce stuff, but you choose not to!!"
You make a habit of ignoring stuff that is produced so, what's the point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 09:20 AM

No I do not.
I asked to see what made him think BBC and mainstream media are a significant cause of IS recruitment, but he could not.

Do you think it is Jim?
Do you know why Dave does?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:02 AM

"No I do not."
Yes you do - constantly
"Do you think it is Jim?"
The BBC is largely a part of the establishment and therefore its mouthpiece - lots of information on this - from Charles Parker, to Jimmmy Saville to Greville Janner.
Is is part of the disaffection of Muslim youth in Britain - this would include other cultural groups. of course)
obody in their right (not politically) mind would take it as being independent - you could fill a library of books on the subject).
However, where it stands in the recruitment is a moot point - the honours for this goes hands down to betrayal by the West in the form of arms sales and appeasement to despotic states - ot to mention a media that regards all Muslims (even all immigrants) as 'The Enemy Within@
Bound to produce a negative reaction.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:12 AM

The mods hate us having such spats, so my last word on it.

I dismissed Dave's opinion because he produced nothing to support it.
He still has not.

You yourself claim that BBC reporting incites people to join IS.

Give us some reason to believe that is an opinion based on knowledge, and not just a whim from an empty head.

There are people who follow this without posting.
They also want to know of there is anything to support that opinion.

Show them.

Dave suggested Googling "media manipulation."
It produced nothing on radicalisation or IS recruitment.
Anything else Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:17 AM

"You yourself claim that BBC reporting incites people to join IS."
No I do not - I say it is prt of a general disaffection felt by the present generation of Asian Youth in Britain who are no longer prepared to put up with what their parents had to.
The BBC is a small part of that - the gutter press is the current cup-holder in those stakes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:30 AM

"Dave suggested Googling "media manipulation."
It produced nothing on radicalisation or IS recruitment.
Anything else Dave?"

I just Googled "media manipulation."

Media manipulation is a series of related techniques in which partisans create an image or argument that favours their particular interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:36 AM

Guest#, you cannot seriously to expect KAOH to absorb and understand " Media manipulation is a series of related techniques in which partisans create an image or argument that favours their particular interests" and be able to apply it to the BBC, the Mail, Express or Telegraph etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:45 AM

I dream lots, Raggytash :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 10:58 AM

Someone very clever once said that a sure sign of insanity is repeating the same actions and expecting different results. I am done discussing anything with Keith as it always ends up the same. He is not interested in anything but scoring points and 'winning'. Trouble is, no-one else understands the rules.

...so my last word on it.

I don't believe that for one second.

#, try reading Noam Chomsky's 10 strategies of manipulation by the media. It applies to everything they do. They no longer just report on news. They help to create the conditions for the stories they want to report.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 11:42 AM

I read them a few years back, mostly to confirm my own thoughts on the matter. I do thank you for reminding me. For others who may be interested, here they are.

http://theinternationalcoalition.blogspot.ca/2011/07/noam-chomsky-top-10-media-manipulation_08.html

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 11:58 AM

You're welcome. The point being that the media assist in controlling everything. Whether that is what toy you should be desperate to buy your children or who we should hate is largely irrelevant. They are guilty of manipulating the public in numerous ways and none of us really understand the scope of it or who the puppet masters are. At the risk of seeming paranoid, I just do not trust them.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 12:29 PM

Hell, Dave, we're all paranoid. The only question is 'Are we paranoid enough?'

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jul 15 - 12:44 PM

And paranoid about the right things, Bruce. ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 04:57 PM

OK, if nothing but to get Keith off the other thread I will, once only, go through my reasoning. The gist is here in Keith's comment

Dave, in reply to
"publicity that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet." you said,
"No it doesn't. It is on mainstream media as well. Or did I dream I saw it the BBC and in the papers? "

In his usual manner Keith has gone on (and on and on and on) here and in other threads that because I have not explained why I hold this opinion, it is not to be taken seriously. So here is that explanation.

Mainstream media has become a tool for manipulating the general public, used by governments and power brokers for their own ends. That is not just my opinion, it is that of many people including the afore mentioned Noam Chomsky. Because we are unaware of the extent or reasons of this manipulation there is nothing that comes out of the media that we can trust. We also know full well that the jihadists are publicly portrayed in the mainstream media as evil. Some people will take this as an invitation to hate them and all they stand for, including Islam. Other people, primarily young Muslims, suffer the consequences of this on a regular basis and this leads them to seek out alternative ways of fighting back. While the mainstream media may not be directly involved in recruitment they should take some responsibility for creating the conditions to make these young people take these desperate measures.

I know full well that Keith will say something along the lines of 'Ah - but they do not actually recruit' but, to be honest, I do not give a shit any more. Anyone with any sense knows full well what my comment was aimed at. Keith, on the other hand, will happily try to score points and 'win' nit-picking points while people die in their droves.

That is all I am prepared to say on the matter and I am now out of this thread. If you want to respond Keith, do it here stop stalking me on other threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 05:35 PM

Dave,
We also know full well that the jihadists are publicly portrayed in the mainstream media as evil.

I think we all agree that the IS jihadists are evil.
Right Dave?
BBC never refers to IS as Islamic State, but always qualifies it as "self styled" or "so called" or similar.

They will not refer to those jihadists as "extremists" or "terrorists" but only as "militants."

How would any of that encourage someone to go and join them?
How would it radicalise anyone?
Do you have any evidence or support from anyone else that it does?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 15 - 05:43 PM

Yup, KoAH:

Muslims Bad.

Christians Good.

Now, go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: mayomick
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 08:40 AM

Keith,
Google "BBC IS" .You'll find links to any amount of articles where the Beeb refers to IS without describing the terrorist group as "self styled" or "so called" .
As an example, see this Auntie Beeb article from 7 July, which refers to Islamic State, "IS" , "Isil" or "ISIS" eleven times , without once using a "so-called" or"self-styled" qualification:

The US-led coalition fighting the Islamic State group is "intensifying" its campaign in northern Syria, President Barack Obama says.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33418021

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:07 AM

Mick, it is BBC policy to qualify "Islamic State" as "self-styled" or "so called" and never to refer to them as terrorists in its broadcasts.

I am surprised your google search did not reveal that they have recently been criticised for it by Cameron.

I can provide links if you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:39 AM

Could it be that the BBC refers to groups who carry out military style attacks as 'militants' and groups or individuals who carry out terror attacks (e.g. Tunsia beach massacre) as 'terrorists' ?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:48 AM

In answer to someone linking an article by the BBC referring to Islamic State, "IS" , "Isil" or "ISIS" eleven times , without once using a "so-called" or"self-styled" qualification, Keith answers with it is BBC policy to qualify "Islamic State" as "self-styled" or "so called"

You just could not make this stuff up. But as it my policy not to post on this thread, I have not just done it...

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 11:55 AM

It isn't BBC policy, neither editorially, stylistically or corporately at all. Correspondents use whatever qualifications they feel necessary to clarify and show objectivity in their reporting.

This is The BBC, not Murdochville.

Why do people have to make things up? Is it because their stance doesn't appeal to educated people of a reasonable disposition, that they have to say things to delay the point their credibility is blown away?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 01:59 PM

BBC Editorial Guidelines.
"Our policy is about achieving consistency and accuracy in our journalism. We recognise the existence and the reality of terrorism - at this point in the twenty first century we could hardly do otherwise. Moreover, we don't change the word "terrorist" when quoting other people, but we try to avoid the word ourselves; not because we are morally neutral towards terrorism, nor because we have any sympathy for the perpetrators of the inhuman atrocities which all too often we have to report, but because terrorism is a difficult and emotive subject with significant political overtones."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/editorialguidelines/page/guidance-reporting-terrorism-full

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:06 PM

Independent, Thursday.
"In a response to a letter signed by 120 MPs demanding that the BBC stop using the term on the grounds it gives undue credibility to the Islamic extremists, Lord Hall of Birkenhead (Head of BBC) warned that using an alternative would be "pejorative".

But he accepted using the term 'Islamic State' on its own could be misleading and insisted the BBC would "redouble our efforts" to use caveats such as "so called Islamic State group"."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-bbc-must-be-fair-to-isis-head-of-broadcaster-rejects-calls-to-stop-using-term-islamic-state-10359806.html

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:07 PM

I repeat. Correspondents use whatever qualifications they feel necessary to clarify and show objectivity in their reporting.

It's in the document you show a link to.

Notice the words "try to avoid" for that matter.

You confuse editorial guidelines with corporate policy.

Possibly for a reason, but maybe through ignorance and lack of being able to understand what you are reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:07 PM

Did or did not the BBC use the terms IS etc. without the use of 'self styled' or any other qualification in a news article dated 7 July? If so, what value their guidelines?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:29 PM

In the article yes, but not in their broadcasts.
The Head of the BBC disapproves.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 02:43 PM

"In answer to someone linking an article by the BBC referring to Islamic State, "IS" , "Isil" or "ISIS" eleven times , without once using a "so-called" or"self-styled" qualification, Keith answers with it is BBC policy to qualify "Islamic State" as "self-styled" or "so called" from Dave the Gnome (original emphasis lost)

No, the only use of Islamic State was an idirect quote from Obama in the first sentence. Over half of the references to IS or Isil where direct or indirect quotes. Not using it the other few times would have made it harder to read and run the risk of a reader (particularly one who was mentally transalting) thinking the reference was to something else.

And Keith never said they qualified IS anyway.

You guys would be better at arguing with Keith if you paid attention. The way this reads rather than his link to the editiorial guidelines making me think "Keith was right on this one" I am thinking "Keith wins".

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 03:15 PM

Still in breach of the guidelines. If the guidelines are not followed, what use are they? There was no point in bringing them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 03:23 PM

Look up 'guidelines' in a dictionary and study its usage in such situations. Read the BBC's and consider their purpose and spirit.

In that article it is bad enough using three different terms for the same thing because of the quotations without adding another. The author uses the jihadist group once near the end which both draws the terms together (there being no other indication what sort of entity IS is) and allows injection of what may be a preferred term.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 03:51 PM

Interesting explanation of DAESH which both explains why people want to use it and why the BBC might stand back from that.

I suspect that if all the anglophone politicians started using it BBC would follow suite because not doing so could then taken as a political statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:00 PM

they have to say things to delay the point their credibility is blown away?

NB: KofAH does not have and never has had anything remotely resembling credibility & thus has nothing to be "blown away". Except possibly the fog from his brain - assuming such exists.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 04:12 PM

Well the Guest (not me) who said that also said "It isn't BBC policy, neither editorially, stylistically or corporately at al" so they know about credibility being blown away.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 05:54 PM

Apologies. I should not have mentioned such a trivial point against the background of such a tragedy. I have no excuse other than it was just to tempting to be as petty as some of the other posts. I will try harder to not to stoop to their level in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 08:09 PM

Muslims Bad.

Christians Good.

How about:

Christians Bad.

Muslims Worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 15 - 09:48 PM

How 'Bout:

Crazy people are crazy people, regardless of nationality or religious persuasion?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 03:56 AM

Dave,
Still in breach of the guidelines. If the guidelines are not followed, what use are they? There was no point in bringing them up.

The only reason we are discussing BBC is because of your extraordinary claim that it is not the internet that draws people in to being radicalised, but reporting by the BBC and mainstream media.

No-one here has agreed with you on it, and no discussion of radicalisation has ever suggested it.

It was discussed on Today programme this morning, and only the internet was identified as an issue in radicalisation.

Will you justify your astonishing claim, or withdraw it so we can move on?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 04:01 AM

"Astonishing claim."

We seem to be evolving to the point of employing rhetoric now.

Who knows, intelligence and rationality may soon follow? I shan't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 04:29 AM

Do some of them want to do for real what they do in computer games ? If so I wonder how many want out when they realise that real blood and dead bodies are not nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 04:47 AM

This was the claim.


"No it doesn't (come from the internet). It is on mainstream media as well. Or did I dream I saw it the BBC and in the papers? The stuff that comes over the internet can, as you have just discovered, be removed quite easily. Do you think for one minute that if the authorities wanted to block certain messages they could not?"

It was perfectly reasonable to question such a claim, and not "petty" at all.

Dave's petty response was to attack me for questioning his opinion.
Since then I have been posted against by his whole gang for not just accepting his strange view without question, even though not one of them has actually said they agree with it.
That is the pettiness.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:02 AM

your extraordinary claim that it is not the internet that draws people in to being radicalised, but reporting by the BBC and mainstream media.

I made no such claim.

Re-read my post, particularly the bit that say It is on mainstream media as well and then tell me when "as well" became "instead of".

Now, what was I saying about trivial point scoring in the light of such a tragedy?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:10 AM

Oh - And to wind back a little further for the people who do not want to wade through all this mire my "as well as" was in response to your the "publicity" that draws people into IS all comes from IS via the internet.

To make it quite clear, just in case, I do not believe the publicity ALL comes from internet but from mainstream media AS WELL. No more nit picking now, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:29 AM

I am asking you to justify your remarkable claim that BBC and mainstream media reporting leads to radicalisation.
I have not seen that suggestion made anywhere else or by anyone except you.

That is the claim we have been bickering about for two days because you will neither justify nor withdraw it.
You even started a thread about whether you should be asked to justify it!

You should.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:40 AM

Here a Muslim former minister discusses radicalisation.
She refers to religious sources but dwells mainly on the internet and never once suggests that BBC or mainstream media plays any part.

"Lady Warsi, who resigned last summer over the government's "morally indefensible" policy on Gaza, said it was becoming more apparent that people were being radicalised in their bedrooms rather than in places of worship."


"Much resource has gone into making sure websites are taken down, but we are fighting an ever-losing battle with extremist groups. One of the things that [Islamic State] has been incredibly successful at has been using the internet and social networking spaces for their own propaganda."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/22/uk-in-ever-losing-battle-over-online-radicalisation-says-lady-warsi

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:18 AM

I justified it here. You did not accept that justification so there is no point in continuing. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:22 AM

BTW - I notice we are changing the rules again

your extraordinary claim that it is not the internet that draws people in to being radicalised, but reporting by the BBC and mainstream media.

has become

your remarkable claim that BBC and mainstream media reporting leads to radicalisation.

Two completely different constructs meaning two different things. As I have often said but never seem to heed my own advice. Don't play games with a cheat.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:30 AM

The media be it newspapers or tv plays a role in the problem.
Reporting acts of violence like the Tunisia killings draws attention to the cause.The media publishes articles and comments on the background to the situation.Those who are interested look further into what is going on and how the perpetrators justify their actions.
Those who believe that the reasons the perpetrators give are just, may join the cause.
The media plays a small part in some cases but is not a significant factor.
As always there will be arguments about which things play the most significant part.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:35 AM

Yep - Agreed Derrick but I think the medias role is a bit more significant as I explained earlier. But this is an insignificant part of the argument compared to the killings. I'm out of here again.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:36 AM

"In 'Terror and the Oxygen of Publicity' Gordon Corera, the BBC Security Correspondent, examines the jihadists' social media strategy, the attempts to combat it, and how media organisations tread the fine line of giving publicity to terrorists and reporting the news."

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans brass crucifix
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 07:03 AM

Leave him alone Dave! He ain't worf it!

Arguing over which medium causes radicalisation is like me wondering which baked bean caused the fart I did earlier.* Young people of any upbringing don't see The BBC as any more or any less objective medium as whatever social media they choose tells them.

Thinking that most of the population have trains of thought and reasoning that sad old men recognise merely increase the senility displayed by some here. Not to mention the self righteous bullshit.

*(Costa, Dorchester main drag, near Marks & Sparks.)

Mind you, it was rather spectacular. Mrs Musket still isn't talking to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 08:11 AM

I justified it here.

No you did not!
You rambled about the media being a government tool to manipulate the public!!!
You rambled about jihadists being portrayed as evil by the media, which should turn people against them!??

Here is your whole "justification."
There is nothing there to justify blaming BBC and mainstream media for radicalisation.

"Mainstream media has become a tool for manipulating the general public, used by governments and power brokers for their own ends. That is not just my opinion, it is that of many people including the afore mentioned Noam Chomsky. Because we are unaware of the extent or reasons of this manipulation there is nothing that comes out of the media that we can trust. We also know full well that the jihadists are publicly portrayed in the mainstream media as evil. Some people will take this as an invitation to hate them and all they stand for, including Islam. Other people, primarily young Muslims, suffer the consequences of this on a regular basis and this leads them to seek out alternative ways of fighting back. While the mainstream media may not be directly involved in recruitment they should take some responsibility for creating the conditions to make these young people take these desperate measures."

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 08:17 AM

Derrick,
Reporting acts of violence like the Tunisia killings draws attention to the cause.

Nonsense!
That is their role.
Such things have to be reported, or would you have such news suppressed.

Acts of political mass murder obviously get reported, and the normal reaction of decent people is revulsion, not a determination to join in continue the killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 09:09 AM

Kieth,
      The very reason for reporting is to draw attention to the event.
The perpetrators are carrying out the act in the name of their cause.
Reporting it gives the perpetrators the publicity they are seeking for their cause.
Nowhere do I say or imply that the news should be suppressed.
Of course normal decent people are upset by it,other people may think it a victory for their own twisted version of reality and go on to do similar things themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 10:16 AM

I know, Musket, but such twisting and distorting of the truth does need to be pointed out. One final thing I think really sums it up,

and the normal reaction of decent people is revulsion, not a determination to join in continue the killing.

So, obviously no decent person would join this organisation or continue the killing. Just young Muslims...

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 10:29 AM

Why is it OK for Derrick to put:

"Of course normal decent people are upset by it,other people may think it a victory for their own twisted version of reality and go on to do similar things themselves. "

But twisting and distortion for Keith to put:

"and the normal reaction of decent people is revulsion, not a determination to join in continue the killing"

??

If you have the opinion that Keith means something different to Derrick then I think you need to explain that.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 10:40 AM

It was not twisting and distorting for anyone to put it. I was twisting and distorting another's words to show how it is not at all nice. The meaning from both phrases is obvious in just the same way as my comment was. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 10:54 AM

No. I don't get it. There is nothing to suggest that all but a tiny number of people do not react with revulsion. And in the circumstances you would expect that tiny number to be Muslims.

Try drawing a parallel with the Omagh bombing. Who would the tiny number not reacting with revulsion to that be ?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 11:20 AM

I remember how you twisted my words in your own thread about this dave.
Twice.

Derrick, IS do not rely on mainstream media to inform their audience of their killings, they broadcast their own slick hi-tec propaganda over the internet.
Those with an interest do not believe or trust the mainstream media anyway.

Dave,
So, obviously no decent person would join this organisation or continue the killing. Just young Muslims...

No decent person would join in the beheadings, crucifictions, burnings, sex slaving, ......
Or do you think that decent behaviour Dave?

They are not all young. A recent British family who went included people in their 70s.

Anyone who was not a Muslim would be put to death as soon as they arrive, so yes they are Muslims, but some are recent converts.
Ethnic white British. They are said to be among the most fanatical.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 12:02 PM

Keith,
      IS or whatever it is politically correct to call them this week,
have their own propaganda regime as you so correctly point out,any publicity ,or reporting of their activities, never the less, helps to keep them in the public eye which is where they want to be.
Those with an interest see any critical comments made in the media as further proof of a hatred of Muslims,they don't need trust or belief in the media to believe that.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 12:09 PM

Only like for like Keith. After all, I am only being fair :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 12:46 PM

Those with an interest see any critical comments made in the media as further proof of a hatred of Muslims,they don't need trust or belief in the media to believe that. I assume by "Those with an interest" you mean IS sympathisers.

Do you think British Muslims would travel so far across the world to fight other Muslims if there was nothing about the fight in the mainstream media ?

As an aside, I suspect that there are a lot of followers of Jesus who would get irritated if they were repeatedly all lumped together as 'Christians' despite their different cultures, traditions and doctrines.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 01:05 PM

I was using Keith's terminolgy, if that was whom he meant yes.
I assume the Muslims who you refer to who travel to fight other Muslims are going to help others fight against IS.
I cannot speak for them or the ones who go to fight with IS

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 01:39 PM

Latest news:
"All British nationals are being urged to leave Tunisia as a further terror attack is "highly likely", Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond has said.

Mr Hammond said there was no suggestion of a "specific or imminent threat", but said the Foreign Office was advising against all non-essential travel there."

Here

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 01:44 PM

I was meaning both. Although IS is Muslim, and followers of other religions are having a bad time of it, most of its opponents are Muslim.

Interesting to see how the media handle Iran being able to present itself as one of the good guys so far as the Tunisia massacre is concerned. Not reporting it mainly.

Jihadist attacks contrary to the teachings of Islam

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 03:13 PM

Only like for like Keith. After all, I am only being fair :-)

You insinuated racism where there was none, just to discredit me.
That was despicable Dave.

Derrick,
,any publicity ,or reporting of their activities, never the less, helps to keep them in the public eye

You mean just reporting the incidents?
If so I disagree.
The media has a responsibility to inform us of such incidents, and if they did not we would all eventually hear by word of mouth from the survivors.
That is not recruitment propaganda that leads to radicalisation.
What IS puts out is recruitment propaganda, and by all accounts it is very effective.

The "oxygen of publicity" theory was about adherents being given a platform.
BBC was guilty of that some years ago, but it does not happen now.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 03:40 PM

You insinuated racism where there was none, just to discredit me.

Where was that then. Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 03:48 PM

Dave, I think it was your Just young Muslims... I read it that way too.

There seems to be some 'history' here concerning Keith and the Middle East. Not knowing what it is makes the discussions gobbledegook to those of us just passing by.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 04:21 PM

I disagree with Keith about publicity. I am just planning a business trip to a country where the security situation is roughly like that of London during the 1970's - if using the rail or tube you didn't hang around in the stations. So I am watching the news to see if the "not if but when" attack happens.

That's what terrorists want all visitors and locals to do. It has been called 'anticipatory dread'. I did pay attention in my statistics classes though.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 04:58 PM

Dave, I think it was your Just young Muslims... I read it that way too.

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 05:05 PM

There seems to be some 'history' here concerning Keith and the Middle East.

The group consisting of Jim, Steve, Greg, Musket and others are very strongly anti-Israel and pro- Palestinian.
Fair enough. Many feel like that.

For balance, I have put Israel's side of the argument.
That makes them very cross indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Jul 15 - 06:36 PM

Keith
The complete answer I gave you is below.
"IS or whatever it is politically correct to call them this week,
have their own propaganda regime as you so correctly point out,any publicity ,or reporting of their activities, never the less, helps to keep them in the public eye which is where they want to be."
By leaving out much of it you changed its meaning to suit your agenda you are changing the rules as usual to try and win your argument as other have said, you cheat.
If you cannot play fair there is little point in continuing to debate with you.

Good night

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 02:59 AM

Ah, OK. The one where a few minutes later I pointed out that it was me twisting someone's words in an example of how it was not a nice thing to do? Forget about that did we? :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:24 AM

Yes, It was me who queried it and shortly after your response said I still didn't get it. So I am not surprised the Keith didn't and felt accused.

Keith - it seems that one was a misundertanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:30 AM

I did realise on your query, Guest, that my comment could have been misinterpreted as genuine, even though the whole post was about twisting words. One thing I have learned, if there is a wrong way to interpret something, Keith will do it.

BTW - When did Muslims become a race?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:46 AM

In the context I think that's being a bit picky.

Start that and we could get into other quibbles over terms, what with Arabic being a semitic language...

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:55 AM

"The group consisting of Jim, Steve, Greg, Musket and others are very strongly anti-Israel and pro- Palestinian.
Correction - Anti-Israeli regime terrorism and war criminality, unqualified support for not massacring civilians and refugees - anti ethnic cleansing
Nobody on this forum has ever denied the right of israel to exist; the only people to have ever attempted to implicate "the Jews" in Israeli war crimes are the supporters of the Israeli regime, and nobody has ever given unqualified support to the policies of Hamas or the Palestinian government
The support has been for the Palestinian people who are being starved and massacred.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:00 AM

And by the way, virtually everybody who has contributed on the subject of Palestine has vehemently opposed your arguments, not just the few you cite - there has never been support for israel's behaviour other than you, Terrytoon, and Bruce the Troll
Get it right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans apples and honey
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:11 AM

Anti Israeli?

Where is that then Keith?

I have a pop at the aggressive Israeli government. But unlike you, I visit Israel often, have many friends there and like most Israelis, accuse the government of aggression.

Your shit spreader seems to be a well oiled machine. Instead of pointing out a few Mudcat members, why not just say "most people"?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:17 AM

You people do not want Israel's position expressed.
No-one could accuse you of being liberal.

Ideologues that you are, you want no other views but yours expressed, or your own views questioned.
That is where you are taking Mudcat.

For balance I put Israel's side of the story.
It is funny to see how cross that makes you Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 05:07 AM

"You people do not want Israel's position expressed."
Israel has a worldwide voice in the form of of a US veto which prevents it from being hauled up in front of the International Court for war crimes
"Ideologues that you are"
Nor ideologues - humanitarians - nobody has ever put forward an "ideology" - just a horror of atrocities against civilians - particularly the 550 plus children murdered by Israelis last year,
Those are the facts we want expressed   
Interesting fact in this mornings Irish Times from a Swedish trauma specialist,based on his experiences in Gaza last year - Israel expended more ammunition at built up areas than the U.S. did during the war in Iraq - five times the amount they used in 2009 - all on civilians.
That is what makes me "cross" - Now why am I not surprised that it doesn't make you the same.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 05:41 AM

just a horror of atrocities against civilians

Does any decent democratic government, such as we would choose to live under, accuse Israel of "atrocities against civilians?"
No.
There is a reason for that Jim.

Instead of pointing out a few Mudcat members, why not just say "most people"?

Most people possibly.
Most governments possibly.
Most democratic governments, no.
None in fact.

Your introduction of the subject of Israel again means this thread will now close when the mods wake up.
You win.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 06:33 AM

Unless I missed something further up this thread,I don't recall any mention of the Israel/Palestine conflict on this thread until your post at 09 Jul 15 - 05:05 PM when you answered a question by one of the guests.
You may be proved right on the matter of thread closure but I think you brought the subject up again.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 06:47 AM

The GUEST in question found the answer useful though. Maybe best not to argue with Keith in a way that makes questions like that neccessary. I asked the question because I also miss-understood Dave's post, and then probably compounded the problem by mentioning language categories.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 06:54 AM

Why is Keith posting as a guest to support himself

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 07:52 AM

Jim and greg both raised it on 1st July.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 07:58 AM

Why is Keith posting as a guest to support himself

Cheap shot. I think you mean me, so he isnt'. I do different typos and grammer and much better logic.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:06 AM

Have not compared the apostrophes...

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:09 AM

Thank you Keith,
I did miss that, both mentions were small parts of very long and complex posts,it took some time to find them even when I knew they were there.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:51 AM

"Does any decent democratic government,"
Is the slaughter of 550 plus children not an atrocity?
It is to most of us.
Has not both Britain and the U.S. including Obama, spoken out against what happened in Gaza last year?
Israeli war crimes are wll documented - we don't need politicians to tell us what they are - we watched the results of them nightly last year on television.
If Israel has nothing to hide, why is it refusing to face an e
nquiry of its behaviour and why is it trying to have the International Criminal Court disbanded, leaving the world without an International body to try War Criminals?
Jim Carroll

Irish Timess, this morning
ISRAEL ACCUSED OF'VIOLATING LAW'
HARRY Mcgee
A Norwegian trauma specialist and anaesthesiologist who has treated casualties in Gaza has accused Israel of "repetitious violations of international law".
Dr Mads Gilbert has written two books about his experiences, including the recently published. Night in Gaza. He is giv¬ing a presentation in the O'Reilly Theatre in Dublin tonight.
Speaking to The Irish Times, he said he had noticed that with each of the four Israeli assaults on Gaza - in 2006, 2009, 2012 and last year - the intensity and level of brutality had increased.
ASSAULT
He said five times more mortars were dropped on Gaza last year than in the assault in 2009. "It was extreme. The Israeli army used more armaments than that used by the US army to conquer Iraq," he said.
He said 142 families lost three or more members and 551 children died last year. The entire population was made subject to collective punishment and because it was a cap¬tive enclave, the population had no place to flee.
APARTHEID
"My big question as a doctor is how can a government and army get away with these repetitious violations of international law. Israeli immunity is some¬thing that should be tackled. This is not a ragtag collection of terrorists. The generals of its army should be taken to the International Criminal Court. "
Dr Gilbert claimed the ruling system in Israel was an apart¬heid one, with its West Bank wall segregating Palestinians. He said the totality of attacks on Israel was weak and meagre compared to its response. While saying he supported nei¬ther Hamas nor Fatah and con¬demned any civilian attacks, he contended Palestinians had the right to defend themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 09:12 AM

"UNHRC Testimony by Major-General Mike Jones on the UN Gaza Report:
"Through the manipulation of public media access and innovative use of social media, we believe that Hamas exploited civilian causalities that it may not have caused but was certainly responsible for.
And this is an important distinction that I think we should make. I think it is very important to distinguish between what the cause of collateral damage is, and where the responsibility lies for the collateral damage.
So, for example, if as a military commander I locate my launch sites for artillery or rocket fire in a protected area -- knowing that the response of any force that is being attacked by that rocket fire is going to fire counter-battery fire -- then it may be that the counter-fire caused the damage, but the responsibility for the damage lies with the people who located it there in the first place.
That, I think, is a very important distinction. And what we saw was that, for their positioning, knowing that there would be civilian casualties and collateral damage, that was done in order to gain international sympathy... Hamas exploited the conflict to engage in a new type of conflict: it's commonly called lawfare."

Major-General Mike Jones (Ret.) at UNHRC

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 09:51 AM

I see the UK government is now telling tourists not to visit:

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/tunisia

which is granting ISIS exactly what they wanted. Helping wreck the Tunisian economy, thereby helping ISIS with recruitment of the unemployed and desperate.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 10:02 AM

So are you suggesting Jack that despite their assessment the Foreign Office should have not given that advice? That a UK Government department should have wilfully witheld an assessment of risk to British citizens for reasons of international politics?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 10:16 AM

The government are in a no win situation.
They have to issue the advice what ever damage it may do to the tourist trade in Tunisia.
Any damage serves the purposes of the terrorists.
Terrorists one.
Government nil.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 10:28 AM

We will never know if another attack on British tourists would have happened in a couple of weeks time. So a proper score card is not possible.

What score would
Government one
Body count 50
give to the terrorists ?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 10:30 AM

Israeli war crimes are wll documented

No they are not.
Please stop putting up the same tired old propaganda that has been refuted here so many times before.

I will not respond to any of it on this thread.
Start a new one if you want it refuted again, but this thread is about Tunisia and IS attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:06 AM

The Government cannot win,no tourists means no body count,terrorists get the damage to the tourist trade.
Body count 50,terrorists still get damage to the tourist trade and the bonus body count as well.
The possibility of attack is sufficient,if it causes the desired result.
The score board may not have been the best way of making the point,it does indicate the terrorists understand how to use fear to their advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:17 AM

"it does indicate the terrorists understand how to use fear to their advantage"

Which is why, in that situation, we call them terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:37 AM

gutless fuckwit wrote:
So are you suggesting Jack that despite their assessment the Foreign Office should have not given that advice?

Yes. It's none of their goddam business where I want to go.

This article suggests there are a lot more dangerous places for British tourists than Tunisia:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3086453/The-country-highest-proportion-British-deaths-Philippines-cost-17-000-repatriate-body.html

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans tabloids
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:48 AM

I was with you till you did a link to The Daily M*il Jack. Any credible source? Or even better, just say it and don't try to justify. Keith has got Mudcat to the point where everybody thinks it important to justify what they say, so Keith has less chance to shout Liar! He'd shout it if it didn't suit his agenda anyway, so why bother mate?

My brother is based in Manila. We meet for a few days drinking each year in Thailand rather than Philippines though. Not because of any danger, but because The Philippines are so bloody boring. Crap cuisine, crap beer.

Acheson. Israeli war crimes are documented. Crimes on neighbours where the word "war" isn't appropriate are also documented. By The UN, Amnesty International, The EU...

Do you think if you keep repeating it, people might believe it? We aren't all fucking religious you know. Some of us don't fall for bullshit even if you try to wear us down.

Nigel will be proud of you, so all is not lost eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:49 AM

It's none of their goddam business where I want to go.

They are not stopping you. They are giving advice. It's their job. Just go if you want to.

Gutless fukwit yourself - easy to talk when you have no reponsibilities for anything to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 11:54 AM

Or were you planning a trip and found you now have to go to a specialist insurer or settle for none ? Tough. That's business. Take it or leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 12:35 PM

Mather,
Israeli war crimes are documented.

No they are not.
Just accusations by its enemies.
No convictions.

As I told Jim, I am not discussing Israel on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 01:59 PM

Once again the professor demonstrates his utter lack of consideration and ultimately his stupidity. He is quite happy to discuss terrorism in Tunisia but will not sanction similar discussion about Israeli State atrocities.


Below is a link to Amnesty Internationals website

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/issues/Israel-and-Palestine?gclid=CKvXycWQ0cYCFSQIwwodLJAHuw

Read it and weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 02:33 PM

I was with you till you did a link to The Daily M*il Jack. Any credible source?

The relevant bit was just the list of numbers, which the Mail is unlikely to have made up. Their "Johnny Foreigner ripping off bereaved Brits" spin is beside the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Gutless fukwit
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:10 PM

As a proportion, British nationals remain significantly more likely to die in the Philippines than in any other country. This is due to the large number of elderly British expats who live there    Daily Mail (as linked by Jack Campin.), my emphasis

So we don't know if it the most dangerous or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:40 PM

Rag, Amnesty is a worthy charity.
It makes allegations not convictions.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 03:51 PM

As I told Jim, I am not discussing Israel on this thread.

You just did, Keith - yet again. Go for three?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:06 PM

"So we don't know if it the most dangerous or not."

I wager that today the UK is the most dangerous place for Brits to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 04:51 PM

The U.S. of A is certainly the most dangerous place for USAsians to be, Bruce, if the highway fatality & murder statistics are any indication.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 07:16 PM

Professor, I was not entering into a discussion with you. I was merely illustrating your stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 07:25 PM

Israeli ain't doing nothing wrong

According to the Professor Israel are completely innocent !!

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 15 - 08:14 PM

Now, wait a minute- wasn't "professor" what they called the piano player in a whore house?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 02:09 AM

"Majot General Mike Jones"
Mike Jones is an American General - America (with iy#ts 100plus vetoes) supports the Israelis - what else is he going to say?
"Maj. Gen. (ret) Michael Jones last active duty assignment was as the Chief of Staff, U.S. Central Command responsible for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and U.S. military activity in the Middle East and Southwest Asia. Previously he had served as the Director of Operations for U.S. Central Command."
Your quote comes from U.N. Watch, an pro-Israeli partisan group o behalf of Israel.
"Amnesty is a worthy charity.
It makes allegations not convictions."
Amnesty International is a highly respected non-partisan research group which bases its findings on careful research - it presents its findings on research - not opinions.
"In the field of international human rights organisations Amnesty has the longest history and broadest name recognition, and is believed by many to set standards for the movement as a whole"
"As I told Jim, I am not discussing Israel on this thread. "
You never "discuss" Israel anywhere - you appease its criminality.
Israel has as much of a part in the rise of Isis as does Britain and the west.
Israel is a terrorist state that should be facing trial for war crimes, instead it is trying to destroy the only international court in the world capable of bringing terrorists like Isis to trial - to protect itself.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket sans grouch mask
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 02:26 AM

Excellent!

Wrong Musket Keith.

It makes the troika worthwhile when it results in your cross hairs getting wonky.

Jack. I wouldn't necessarily trust the numbers for that matter. There again, I doubt I would have read it in the first place mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 03:22 AM

Can someone point out to Keith that he is the only one who puts up these subjects and then attempts to censor discussion on the reasons why they happen.
He really needs to know
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 04:19 AM

Jim, if you want your tired old anti-Israel propaganda answered again, start a thread or refresh one of the dozens of old ones.

According to the Professor Israel are completely innocent !!

According to me Rag, no country is completely innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 04:55 AM

Re Gen. Jones testimony.
The first paragraph is his (and US) opinion.
The second paragraph is about the law of armed conflict and is fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 04:57 AM

"Jim, if you want your tired old anti-Israel propaganda answered again"
Only "tired" is you are punch-drunk, as you must be by now, defending these monsters.
It is not your decision to make how we discuss the subject in hand - if we believe Israel is part of today's terrorism, we will say so - feel free not to take part
You have been warned on numerous occasions not to interfere with peoples' rights to discuss subjects in however they see fit
STOP TRYING TO MANIPULATE DISCUSSION BECAUSE YOU ARE BEING HAMMERED
"According to me Rag, no country is completely innocent."
But Israel is more innocent than everybody else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 05:03 AM

Jim, if you are afraid to enter into debate on this, please at least stop trying to hijack this thread for a platform where you will not be challenged.

n.b. I have never "been warned on numerous occasions (or any occasion)not to interfere with peoples' rights to discuss subjects in however they see fit."
You just made that up Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 08:28 AM

"Jim, if you are afraid to enter into debate on this"
Enter a debate on what?
I've said what I believe are the causes of terrorism today - it's not me who is trying to censor discussion STOP IT
Your "thread drift" ploy is far to common for you to possibly deny it - you have been warned about it by me and various other members for years - it is one of your more undemocratic traits.
Please, please continue to deny it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:38 PM

Is this thread open or closed?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:42 PM

"Is this thread open or closed?"
Doesn't appear to be closed -why should it be
We're all behaving ourselves
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:49 PM

It was closed a few hours ago unless I'm confusing it with some other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jul 15 - 12:52 PM

It was originally opened with a closed mind, if that helps?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 09:50 AM

Jim, if you want your tired old anti-Israel propaganda answered again

OK then, Keith: how about some NEW "anti-Israeli Propaganda" (as you choose to call it) on your favorite hobbyhorse of "Christian Persecution":

++++++++

JERUSALEM (AP) 12 July 2015— Israeli police have arrested a number of suspects in last month's arson attack on a famous Catholic church in the Holy Land, police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said Sunday.

The fire is believed to be an attack by Jewish extremists, but Rosenfeld would not elaborate on the identity of those arrested.

In recent years, mosques and churches have been targeted by vandals in similar attacks. They are often attributed to extremist Jews from West Bank settlements.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 09:59 AM

Greg, you have no chance of getting an acknowledgement of Israeli atrocities. My post of 10 July (07.25) merely elicited the response "no country is completely innocent"

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 10:38 AM

Some bad Israeli youths caused arson in a church.
They were arrested an convicted.
Is that an "Israeli atrocity" Rag?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 11:13 AM

Every country has its share of bigoted fanatics, and Israel is no different.
Why do you people always single out Israel, even on a thread with no relevance?
It makes you appear as bigoted fanatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 11:17 AM

"Is that an "Israeli atrocity" Rag?"
Yes it is, it was an atrocity carried out by Israelis
Such behaviour is commonplace in Israel today, as is the eviction of families to make room for settlers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/8041828/Israeli-settlers-set-fire-to-mosque.html
The real atrocities were the slaughter of civilians that took place last year, including the killing of 550 plus children, though there should never be a sliding-scale for atrocities.
The fact that they were punished is immaterial
There are those among us who have no compunction in talking about "Muslim atrocities" - it goes to make up many headlines in the sewer press.
jIM cARROLL

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 11:20 AM

Do it properly and make it easy:
BAD ISRAELI YOUTHS OR AN ATROCITY?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Musket full of crabs
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 11:21 AM

Were the little scamps who bomb hospitals and schools in Palestine arrested and convicted too?

The problem is Keith, you lack the wisdom and intelligence to see both sides of any situation so you gun for your heroes (anyone not Muslim, anyone who is a revisionist tame establishment historian etc etc) and never acknowledge the reality, which is usually in the middle, though for some reason, never close to your agenda.

I blame people bending religious nonsense for many issues and you want Christians excluded from the list. Apparently they don't do (whatever.). Then you deny posting it.

You put yourself up for ridicule and baiting because with your credibility so low, intelligent debate is impossible with you. Personally, I resort to taking the piss. Some try to appeal to whatever common sense you may have and most just drift from Mudcat.

Well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 12:24 PM

Another act of arson in a place of worship.
Outside Israel's borders mosques and churches are blown to rubble and the worshippers gruesomely executed except the girls who are forced into sexual slavery, and genocide is what is going on.

Why do you people always and only single out Israel, even on a thread with no relevance, while you ignore infinitely worse crimes all around.

Prejudice.

If you want to your points about Gaza addressed again, reopen one of the many threads about it or start yet another.

Musket, if you are not a liar, put up a quote.
Good luck with that, liar.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 12:45 PM

Now you're dodging by pointing to others
Burning Mosques is no different than burning Synagogues - both are atrocities (you suggested they were not) and one doesn't cancel out the other.
The massacre of 550 plus children, on the other hand....!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 12:46 PM

Gaza again.
Start a thread and I will answer.
Afraid Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 12:47 PM

And stop trying to manipulate and censor threads - you've been told before (though you deny doing it)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 12:50 PM

Round 7882 if anyone's interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 01:30 PM

"Start a thread and I will answer."
This one will do fine Keith
"Afraid Jim?"
You seem not to have noticed but I'm making the running here, you are just squaling "thread drift" again
Can't really recall you ever saying anything other than "they diudn't do it" - no contest
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 01:35 PM

I refer yet again to my post of 10th July (07.25) which has yet to elicit a response.

Is there a problem I ask myself?

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 02:58 PM

Rag, I refer you to my reply 11 Jul 15 - 04:19 AM .

Jim, this thread is about the IS massacre in Tunia.
It could reasonably be extended to include other IS atrocities, like the genocide of Yazidi, Christians and Shia, and the destruction of their places of worship and enslavement of women and girls.

I can't stop you trying to hijack this thread and make it into just another of the many attacking Israel, but I will not be a party to it.

If you want to discuss the Gaza conflict, I am happy to oblige but this thread is about an unrelated tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 03:46 PM

There we have it, an unpalatable truth which, because it doesn't fit into someone's preconceived remit, is conveniently ignored. However many members have very long memories.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 04:05 PM

Well done for getting my thread closed, Keith. Maybe I could do the same here.

Fuck off you wanker.

Think that will do it? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 04:21 PM

you bugger Dave !!! I thought I might "win" until your last post :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 04:35 PM

Damn. That should have read

Roud 7882.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 06:54 PM

Colonel Richard Kemp, former head of the international terrorism and Iraq team for the Joint Intelligence Committee:
"The report is morally bankrupt, making no distinction between the Israel Defense Forces, the legitimate armed forces of a Western liberal democracy and Hamas, an internationally-proscribed terrorist group that operates a tyrannical dictatorship over the citizens of Gaza. The report has no military insight and it is quite clear that the UN commissioners and the drafters of the report have no knowledge or experience of armed conflict."

Major-General Michael D. Jones, Former Chief of Staff, U.S. Central Command:
"While it is positive that the UN's Gaza report acknowledged that all combatants are required to abide by the law, and that Hamas's and other groups' indiscriminate rocket fire at Israel was unlawful, it is disappointing that the report fails to condemn these groups for unlawfully failing to distinguish themselves as combatants, as well as purposefully co-locating amongst civilians, knowingly placing them at risk, with absolutely no military necessity to do so. I am also disappointed that the report, came to conclusions without sufficient information to make a judgment. Specifically, they condemn the IDF for engagements without any information on the IDF's objectives, military necessity, or known information on risk."

Professor Geoffrey Corn, Professor of Law at South Texas College of Law and former chief of the Law of War Branch in the International Law Division, US Judge Advocate General:
"Unfortunately, findings of IDF LAOC violations throughout this Report rest on flawed or under inclusive interpretations of the law, and an inadequate consideration or appreciation of the realities of combat operations, ultimately undermining the credibility of these findings. What is obvious, however, is that only one party to this conflict - the IDF - demonstrated commitment to LOAC compliance, even when confronting an enemy who deliberately violated the law to gain tactical and strategic advantage."

Jonathan Schanzer, vice president of research at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies:
"The report gives no thought or attention to the actors that enabled the war... Iran has for years helped Hamas acquire long range rockets and develop domestic rocket making capabilities...the support that Turkey and Qatar provided to Hamas in the years leading up to the conflict, not to mention the diplomatic campaign that it waged on Hamas' behalf during the war. The role of Egypt is downplayed greatly... more than 1,000 tunnels had been destroyed before the war began...[this] was perhaps the greatest impetus for Hamas to launch its war... designed to re-negotiate the flow of goods and services between Egypt and Gaza."

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 15 - 08:52 PM

Every quote above is from Israel's allies, Americans and Poodle Britain - what else are they going to say?
They were taken from the NGO Monitor, a pro-Israeli agency based in Jerusalem and funded by donations from the right wing 'Jewish Agency for Israel and Matan' - they are Israeli propagandists.
According to Haaretz, in 2012 they were challenged for attempting to hide the source of their donations
Hamas is a poorly armed. poorly trained irregular army facing the most sophisticated, well armed, well trained fighting force in the Middle East.
Whether or not Hamas's method of fighting is illegal or not, is beside the point - they are fighting a defensive war and their actions are no different than any force fighting such odds.
Last year Israel invaded Gaza and killed more than 2,220 Palestinians, 1,492 of them civilians; at least 513 of them children.
The Israelis indiscriminately destroyed hospitals, health centres, schools, public buildings - most of them occupied by civilians.
According to Haaretz, in the first half of 2014, the Israelis demolished 493 Palestinian buildings leaving 1 ,177 Palestinian people homeless.
THe UN has calculated that 22,000 homes were rendered uninhabitable during the fighting.
On one occasion, health workers informed Israelis that their patients were in the path of advancing troops, they were instructed to take keep all its inmates inside one of the buildings (the health workers had providence the co-ordinates) - the building was later shelled by tank fire.
Towards the end of the fighting, Israeli troops reported that Israeli death squads were picking off Palestinian survivors sheltering in the ruins of buildings
THESE ARE WAR CRIMES AND NEED TO BE ACCOUNTED FOR - INSTEAD, ISRAEL HAS CALLED FOR THE DISMANTLING OF THE INTERNATIONAL WAR CRIMES COURT - WHY WOULDN'T THEY?
"greatest impetus for Hamas to launch its war."
Hamas did not launch this war, on the contrary, Israel invaded Gaza and massacred its citizens indiscriminately in revenge for the kidnapping and killing of three students.
On 9 Aug 2014, an Israeli drone killed five children from one family - revenge enough, if revenge against civilians was considered necessary.
No matter how illegal Hamas's action is, it measures small against the number of Palestinians killed and wounded down the years by Israelis - troops and settlers.
Hamas is doing nothing that Israeli freedom fighters didn't do following British pulling oput of Palestine.
"Jim, this thread is about the IS massacre in Tunia."
Israeli atrocities are directly connected to the rise of Islamist terrorism - you don't want to discuss that aspecy of it - don't, but do not attempt to interfere with anybody else doing so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 03:33 AM

"Can I say "fuck off wanker" to Keith too?"
I wish you wouldn't - it only lets him off the hook.
It's bad enough trying to take part in a discussion with him constantly trying to censor and manipulate.
Your loutish, and far-too-often misogynist language is like trying to carry out a serious conversation in a pub full of foul-mouthed bikers.
It would be to his advantage if this thread were closed - stop doing his job for him and give it a rest.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:07 AM

Jim, we all know that you have a deranged obsession for attacking Israel.

Fine, but this thread is about the IS attack in Tunisia, and you are just the mad woman in the attic.
(With Rag doll and popgun.

The victims are buried and Tunisia's tourism destroyed.
A tragedy, but perhaps time to move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Musket
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:21 AM

You say a lot of embarrassing things yourself Jim, and at face value, occasionally make Keith's diatribe seem reasonable.

Glass houses and all that.

I take the piss, you give him material to beat you down with.

Reality is nearer to you than him, but it's not always easy to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:25 AM

I think that is his way of rolling over a waving his paws in the air. I'd say "he lose"

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:38 AM

"You say a lot of embarrassing things yourself Jim,"
Do I
I certainly don't deliver them in the mysoginist manner you do
I agree with much of awhet you say (politically), but I find your delivery hard to take sometimes.
Women really are more than their sexual parts.
"Jim, we all know that you have a deranged obsession for attacking Israel."
No I haven't - I don't find the horror of massacres deranged.
I find your appeasing such things and defending the culprits obscene - I've never met a Christian who would sink to that level.
"The victims are buried and Tunisia's tourism destroyed."
Thosands of civilian lives have been lost and homes and hospitals destroyed and their country has been ruined, yet you continue to defend the perpetrators.
In addition - what has happened in Gaza will continue to stoke the fire of hatred for Isis and the killing will continue into the forseeable future, and you would attempt to stop us from pointing out that fact
"A tragedy, but perhaps time to move on."
NO - a time to put a stop to it by tackling one of the major contributory factors
Perhaps then we can move on to discussing the propping uo and selling of weapons to despotic regimes - another contributory factor.
I don't get your literary references - we obviously read different books!!
Jim Carroll;

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 04:40 AM

As I pointed out before, there is not point in playing with a cheat. Far better for your sanity to just take the piss.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 05:16 AM

Yes.
You people mock, take the piss, make up lies, and vomit out obscene personal abuse.
Anything except answer what I say, because you can't.

You sad losers.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 05:19 AM

And of course his "winning" is FAR more important than innocent civilians wherever they are being killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 05:34 AM

No, fair is fair, Raggy. Keith is quite right in his statement Anything except answer what I say, because you can't.

No-one can answer what Keith says because no-one knows what he actualy means. It goes sort of like this.

Keith: It is a lovely day today.
AN Other: Well, it is rather dull and overcast here.
Keith: It is not dull and overcast here.
AN Other: I am only saying it is dull and overcast here.
Keith: It is sunny. You are a liar.
AN Other: The forecast says it is going to cloud over in Hertford later.

An hour or two passes and it does indeed start to rain on Keith's head

Keith: It may be raining but that is not what I meant by a lovely day. I only meant I feel really good today. Why do you people always twist everything I say. You lose.

Have I got it right?

(Copied to Facebook for posterity in case it gets deleted :-) )

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:02 AM

That about sums it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:10 AM

"Anything except answer what I say, because you can't."
You have had your answered and you ignore them - go give nothing in return other than "israel didn't do it" - no explanations, no evidence, no links to why they did what they did and continue to do.
It is little wonder some people resort to personal abuse soemtimes
The greatest threat to humanity today is Holy War and nuclear facilitated Israel with its expansionist policies and its desire to creat a monotheist apartheid state, is a leading figure in that threat.
Nuclear weapons have always been a threat - in the hands of zealots, they could well bring about the destruction of the planet.
When that happens - we are all "sad losers", and our children and our children's children....
"Far better for your sanity to just take the piss."
Haven't you noticed. it doesn't work with Keith - no sense, no feeling
Much better to let him perform in public.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:13 AM

Just had a thought Dave, you missed the bit we A N Other was abusing him by causing rain to fall in Hertford

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 06:17 AM

You missed the bit "where" not "we"

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:23 AM

You sad people.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:39 AM

I am not sad. I am quite happy at the moment. You are a liar and you lose! :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:50 AM

I'm not sad either, in fact I'm quite enjoying myself.

Taking the piss out of a moron ................. good fun
Preparing Strawberries to make Jam tomorrow .... good fun
Preparing kitchen for delivery of new American style fridge freezer this afternoon ................................. good fun
Taking the piss out of a moron again ........... good fun
Meeting up with friends for a pint later, with some of my home made Blue Stilton.................................... good fun
Probably a bit more piss taking later........... good fun

No definitely not sad at all!

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:53 AM

"I am quite happy at the moment"
Me too - wonderful week off music and song at the Willie Clancy Summer School - great year for making our collection available - two great radio programmes on MacColl and the possibility of singing workshops taking off in Ireland - (oh, and Keith continuing to make himself look the prat he is)
What more could a girl ask for? - might decide to live to 150!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 07:58 AM

Give 'em facts and they're defeated so they resort to this nonsense and make a sorry spectacle of themselves. The worst thing is that they think they are being smart and clever with these tactics - talk about a lack of insight. Clapton wept.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 08:03 AM

And then there's the moron posting as a guest to "support" the moron. Even better!!

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 08:24 AM

There is only one fact obvious in these threads, dear Gusset. (Yes, that was on purpose) The fact that whenever anyone says anything that disputes whatever Keith is saying he finds a way to distort what was said, either by himself or the other party. And of course you never make a sorry spectacle of yourself by sitting anonymously on the sidelines and sniping at people. Some people have a funny idea of what looks foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 08:39 AM

That's Bruce, who dredges extremist Zionist sites to prove we're all Antisemites
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 09:35 AM

And like the stooges they are they all log in to chirp in unison.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 10:06 AM

Another wanker then. Gives pleasure to no-one but himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 10:24 AM

I assume we're all finished here - this pair seem to be trying to close the thread, having been given a severe kicking
INCREMENTAL GENOCIDE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 10:47 AM

FYI, the other definition of "sad."

sad
1
ADJECTIVE
1.
feeling or showing sorrow; unhappy:

"I was sad and subdued"

synonyms: unhappy · sorrowful · dejected · regretful · depressed ·

2.
informal

pathetically inadequate or unfashionable:

"the show is tongue-in-cheek—anyone who takes it seriously is a bit sad"

synonyms: substandard · below standard · below par · bad · deficient

You sad people.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:03 AM

But I am none of those things either so you are still a liar. Besides, you only changed your mind when you were proved wrong on the first count. As usual. :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:11 AM

And foolishly I thought mention of Roud 7882 would turn this into a music thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:23 AM

Just realised as well. How sad is it to think that anyone needed sad explaining? I'd say it was pretty bad but that would only get twisted to meaning good...

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:55 AM

Arf, arf! Nice one, #.

PS I long-time owe you a big apology, but I can't pm you.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 11:58 AM

And this from a man who CLAIMS he never gives out abuse ...tut tut

I think he's lying again ...... so no change there.

Subject: RE: BS: Beach massacre in Tunisia
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jul 15 - 03:30 PM

I thought mention of Roud 7882 would turn this into a music thread.
Just twigged, pardon the pun
Jim Carroll