BS: David Cameron is execrable

Subject: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 08:39 AM

a big sod!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Stu
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 09:33 AM

So are his cronies. Nasty, myopic corporate shills.

Foul folk.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 09:47 AM

I suspect most people agree with the above posts (myself included).
Alas, it only goes to show how unpopular Muppet Miliband & Numptie Nigel were during the G.E. that they lost to Cameron the Cringeworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 10:51 AM

Unpopular because the Self-Servatives' campaign consisted of nothing more than smears and lies about Labour, the SNP, the cause(s) of the Financial Crash of 2008, and many other things.

They presented not one policy on which they themselves might be judged, and the feeble-minded of the electorate fell for it.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 11:31 AM

I have to add, totally off topic but musically, that this is my favorite use of the word Execrable anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 12:02 PM

More upset with Iain Duncan Smith, persecuting the sick and disabled. There have already been suicides due to the pressure of fulfilling benefit conditions. Thee are now going to be many more due to further pursuing of sick and vulnerable people. The financial costs to the public will be even greater than the money saved by cracking down. How can any Christian sleep, knowing they are causing mentally and physically ill people -intolerable pressure which will end in their deaths?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 12:26 PM

" ... the feeble-minded of the electorate fell for it."

Sadly, I suspect they told the electorate what they wanted to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 01:19 PM

And Labour failed to tell the electorate the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 01:22 PM

Correct, both of you.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 02:04 PM

Neither were believed unquestioningly.
Most people are not "feeble minded."

The op is a majority view here, but a minority view in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 02:06 PM

Labour party are limply over-apologetic and too afraid of upsetting the sensitivities of softer hearted tories
who they hope may once again be courted as potential labour voters..

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 02:34 PM

Wowzer! The supersophistication of the political philosophies embraced in this thread are just too much for my poor ickle brain. Off to watch Man-U play Bruges.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 03:16 PM

That tells all, Mike!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Aug 15 - 04:30 PM

the feeble-minded of the electorate fell for it.

I think that has to be the most repulsive statement I've ever seen on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 01:56 AM

each to his own...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 03:01 AM

IMNSHO it was uncertainty, the fragmented choices, fear of quadruple dip recession (think China right now) and ineffectual politicians.
The public, en mass, did what we all do faced with choice we can't resolve. Go with the familiar. In this case the incumbent. If we were flushed with money, generally, we would be more adventurous.

Anyway, as trivial as it may seem, they picked the wrong Miliband. The pretty one would have fared better. Think Michael Foot. When did he win an election? Sorry to disappoint all those level-headed posters here, pretty wins votes and it may only be a few (in your eyes), but every vote you win, doubles the delta!

And look who we heading towards getting as head of opposition. A latter day Michael Foot.

History repeats itself, it has to, nobody is listening.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Musket
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 03:51 AM

There is a train of thought, when looking at the numbers that things might have been slightly better if more people voted conservative.

His slim majority means he has to keep the less savoury elements of his party on board to deliver any legislation at all. Regardless of whether he is nice to his gran or eats babies.

The thing is, when we all cast our votes, I doubt anybody actually thought either party would win a majority to form a government with. So they genuinely think they have a mandate.

Prior to the election, I was saying that Jeremy Hunt had turned out to be a better health secretary than any of us expected. After the election, he has turned political incompetence and scorn for his brief into an art form. He is positively dangerous.

But. They formed a government. The lesson here is that in the world of soundbite media, it is increasingly the case that presentation beats substance. Although, I didn't see too much substance in Labour's campaign either.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 04:58 AM

Mither is partly correct that the soundbite media fetish is dangerous, but the bias of the UK media is worse than simply that.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Musket
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 05:25 AM

"Partly correct"

Praise indeed. I must change how I word things, as it can lead to unintended consequence. I have my street cred to think about..

Mind you, spot on in which Musket wrote it...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 05:49 AM

There is a reason why there are few left wing papers.
Few want to buy them.
You have your cause and effect mixed up.

The Mirror is available, but more want the Mail.
Call them all feeble minded if it makes you feel better, but that is not the cause either.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Stanron
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 06:41 AM

This is just another lefty loser's whinge thread. Get over it. You lost.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 07:48 AM

you miss the point Stanron....you voted for a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 08:10 AM

Strictly speaking, Al, only those eligible to vote in the Witney constituency voted for him. But you're right, he's a shit - almost as much of a shit as the Spawn of The Devil, IDS.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 08:35 AM

"Tthe Mail."
A real newspapers sold by real newsagents
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 08:44 AM

Thats it - thread fucked.
Well done.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Musket
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 09:15 AM

Al's thread title fucked it to begin with. It is a marmite title. You either agree with it or you don't. I don't think ya boo! Descriptions invite serious comment. But being objective isn't to take a stance either way.

Mind you, Keith's choice of comic confirms how weak gullible sods encourage cynical owners of newspapers. Whilst ever fools believe what they read, it'll keep getting printed.

I suppose less people read some political styled rags than others because intelligent people don't need to be fed horseshit of any persuasion whilst petty ideas attract petty minded individuals. The likes of Dacre at The Daily M*il realise that confirming peoples' bigotry and narrow mindedness sells far more copy than relating news. It is self righteousness on tomorrow's' chip wrapper.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 10:03 AM

Careful, Muskie, with 'repulsive' views like that you'll have The Snail and Stanron after you... 😜😎

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 11:28 AM

So, Backwoodsman, if you don't like democracy what are you going to put in its place? If you put me in the same bracket as Stanron, you really aren't getting the point.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 12:15 PM

Well, Mulluscan friend, I merely question your use of the word 'repulsive'.

You may well disagree with my political views, and I have no problem with that, but for an obvious Tory supporter to describe anyone's views as 'repulsive' simply because they disagree with you, and can see through the paucity and dishonesty of the Self-Servatives' election strategy really does take the biscuit.

'Repulsive' is the Self-Servatives' lie that the 2008 financial crash was caused by the previous Labour government, ''repulsive' is the Self-Servatives' lie that a vote for the SDP was a vote for Labour, repulsive' is the demonising of refugees by the Daily Heil and its ilk, 'repulsive' is the culling of the sick and disabled by The Spawn of The Devil, ID-S

It's a good idea to choose your words carefully, they are liable to come back and bite your arse.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 01:20 PM

Goo on! Clock him a fucker!!!

I've got the garlic butter ready for him, try not to damage his shell so he can sit in the sauce pan nicely. Just got to get someone willing to swallow his views....

I suppose after their damning condemnation of this government's immigration handling and solutions, I can now openly admit to my membership of The Institute of Directors....

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 01:43 PM

Keith's choice of comic

It is not my own choice at all.
Where did you get that from, or is making up shit just a habit?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 01:55 PM

That other leftie paper, The Guardian, is way behind The Telegraph and most other papers in sales.

You can not claim that the public is duped by right wing papers.
They could read left wing papers.
They choose not to.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 02:32 PM

I would be most surprised if David Cameron does not stay on for a third term, and most disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 03:16 PM

Sadly the British public prefer Coronation Street to Coriolanus and Lady Gaga to Lizzie Higgins - and only 61 percent of them bother to vote in elections - wonder which newspaper they pick those habits up from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 03:19 PM

And only 39.9 percentage of those who did vote, voted for the Conservatives
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 03:48 PM

Backwoodsman, could I ask you to actually read what I have said and make an effort to understand it?

I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a Tory supporter but I am a supporter of democracy. You dismissed a large proportion of the electorate as feeble-minded for not voting the way you think they should. What do you want to do, disqualify the feeble-minded (i.e. anyone who votes Tory) from voting? Put them up against the wall come the revolution? We need to win those people over not regard them with contempt. I'll ask again, if you don't like democracy what are you going to put in its place?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 03:49 PM

Just exercising their democratic rights, Jim. But, like most self-proclaimed democrats, you despise the demos and all its choices. None so class-conscious as the leftie!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 03:53 PM

The Multi-headed Musket
Goo on! Clock him a fucker!!!

Sigh!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 03:56 PM

And not a mollusc amongst us.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 03:58 PM

"Alas, it only goes to show how unpopular Muppet Miliband & Numptie Nigel were during the G.E. that they lost to Cameron the Cringeworthy. "

I don't know about that, UKIP increased their share of the popular vote dramatically, but the "democratic system" ensured they got just 1 MP?....they increased their vote by reflecting public opinion on the EU and unregulated immigration.

Surely you did not expect UKIP to beat the Tories?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 04:26 PM

Mollusc, why don't you follow your own advice and read and understand what i said?

I reiterate - I have no problem with people having a different political viewpoint to mine. I welcome it. What I do have a problem with is a party who, via their powerful allies in the media, lie and deceive their way into power - e.g. by their claim, repeated several times on TV by Camermoron, and many, many times by The Daily Heil and its ilk, that Labour, by their financial ineptitude, 'caused' the 2008 Financial Crash. That was a repulsive lie, easily refuted, yet many clearly were taken in by it.

The Tory press are currently engaged in a campaign of demonising refugees and asylum-seekers, people whose lives have been destroyed in their own countries and who look to nations like ours for succour and support. That's what I call repulsive.

The Minister for Work and Pensions has, for many months now, presided over a system of culling the sick and disabled - only today, he has had to admit that 4,000 people in that category died within six weeks of being declared 'fit for work' and losing their financial support. That's what I call repulsive.

The only policy announced by the Self-Servatives during their election campaign was an airy-fairy promise to cut an un-defined 12 billion pounds from the benefits bill. Yet they didn't make any mention of the 100-or-so-billion that they don't recover from tax evaders and avoiders. That's what I call repulsive.

I certainly don't support a party who behaves as Robin Hood in reverse, stealing from the poor to give to the rich, selling off the NHS and our only profitable railway to their cronies and supporters. That's what I call repulsive.

Of course I support democracy. What I don't support is a party which is prepared to tell the undecided what they want to hear, whilst deliberately avoiding telling the truth. A party which tells what it knows are bare-faced lies in order to discredit its opponents. That's what I call repulsive.

I dismissed a section of the electorate as 'feeble-minded' for allowing themselves to be led by the nose to vote for a party without thinking things through, for being whipped by the lies and deceit of the Self-Servative Media Machine. That's what I call repulsive.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 04:59 PM

Mr Cameron also promised to bring down immigration to the "Tens of thousands", The latest immigration figures are 330,000 pa, the highest ever figure.....Mr Farage has been proved correct again.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 07:42 PM

"Just exercising their democratic rights,"
39 percent of 69 percent - doesn't sound particularly democratic to me - which wasn't the point I was making.
The fact that a lot of people read the Daily Wail doesn't make it any less of a bum-wipe that it actually is - I believe The Sunday Sport had a pretty large following - as did The Vomit of the World before Rupe the Ratbag pulled the plug..
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Aug 15 - 08:01 PM

Backwoodsman, I totally agree with you about the Tories and the Tory press so don't &%£*%@#^well accuse me of being "an obvious Tory supporter". The trouble is you then said -

I dismissed a section of the electorate as 'feeble-minded' for allowing themselves to be led by the nose to vote for a party without thinking things through

You have to be pretty confident of your own intellectual superiority to come out with a statement like that. These people have the vote. Rather than treating them with contempt we need to reach out to them, something that the remnants of Nu-Labour have spectacularly failed to do.

Regarding your opponents as inferior and somehow less than human is an ancient and repulsive technique.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 02:15 AM

To allow oneself to be persuaded to vote for a party with no visible policies, and which resorts to deceit and scare-mongering via its tame media-mouthpieces in order to effect that persuasion, smacks to me of feeble-mindedness.

How would you describe it otherwise?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 02:29 AM

Your original comment, "I think that has to be the most repulsive statement I've ever seen on Mudcat", was made in isolation, with no explanation of why, or from what standpoint it was made.

It's hardly surprising, therefore, that an assumption was made that it came from a Tory supporter.

And I haven't sworn at you, so don't swear at me.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 03:03 AM

I'll swear at him on your behalf if you want. The BS section of Mudcat is la la land anyway so I have no self respect to consider.

Anyway, how the fuck can this be reality. Some delusional representative of the little people put a few posts ago that UKIP reflected public opinion. Mind you, this is the same brain of Britain who also reckons he is a member of the communist party and a member of the SNP too...

Surely no normal person takes this to be real debate do they?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 03:44 AM

Nah, 'course not, but it gives us a few larffs, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 04:04 AM

The fact that a lot of people read the Daily Wail doesn't make it any less of a bum-wipe that it actually is -

True, but they do not think it is.
It presents their views, to which they are entitled.
They pay good money to read it.
Far fewer want to read the Mirror or any other paper presenting a left wing view.

Sorry, but left wing views are a minority, and your far left views a fringe minority, and not because everyone else is feeble minded or gullible dupes who believe politicians lies.

Is Cameron more execrable than other party folk who have never had a proper job?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 04:38 AM

Indeed. I have spent several years exercising my mind as to why Mudcat, and folk music in general, should be to so considerable an extent a haven for lefties. Those of us to whom the music simply & intrinsically appeals tend to be smothered by a plethora of quasi·Marxian agendas.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:02 AM

"and folk music in general, should be to so considerable an extent a haven for lefties"
Those who got the music noticed way back when considered it the music of 'the common people' - social rather than political.
Personally in forty years of researching, I've never had any reason to challenge that concept, you only had to spend five minutes talking to Walter Pardon or any Traveller to confirm this.
Fine to separate that music from its roots if that's what turns you on, but surely you can have no objection to others who would do otherwise.
"quasi·Marxian agendas."
I would expect no other response from those on the right, who would rather regard working people as a cultureless "salts of the earth".
"True, but they do not think it is."
Doesn't alter the fact that it is - proof of the pudding.
Don't know where 'The Mirror' enters into this - just as much a right-wing bumwipe nowadays.
As I said - Lady Gagga and Corrie are indications of mass taste nowadays - effects of Capitalism controlling our media.
A few years ago I started taking 'The Times' (for Codeword) - slightly better written, but a pale shadow of 'The Thunderer' it once was.
Recently, the sewer level they have stooped to in political debate (particularly about Corbyn) has confined me to Codeword and The Crossword.
"Sorry, but left wing views are a minority,"
The level of interest in parliamentary politics and the well-desrved contempt that all politicians are held in by the mass of the people as a whole is the majority view nowadays - minority governments elected by a minority of the electorate is a reflection of the state of democracy today.
Come back Edward Gibbon - we need you!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:14 AM

The folk musicians and singers that I grew up listening to, were home grown and far from "left wing"...They had a pride in themselves, sang of their joy and sorrow, they revelled in life and all its facets.

Long before folk music was adopted by the political left.
In fact I think Dixieland Jazz was more of an influence than folk music as it led on to the better understanding of black "culture" and political involvement in the civil rights movement.
Reading about the history of the American traditional jazz players certainly gave me my first political insight.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:19 AM

I know nurse said you shouldn't get excited, but I am going to risk it by partially agreeing with you.

One working class hero (a public schooled solicitor in leafy Kent) said in one thread that I can't appreciate folk music because I'm not "working-class" any more. Put aside what that means, and presumably, I'll have to put my flat cap and greyhound on eBay....

Of course, you get two dimensional ignorance at all ends of the pendulum. Take Keith's hilarious stance above that because The Daily M*il sells more than The Daily Mirror, it reflects public opinion.

He really should get out more. (Sorry, good people of Hertford.)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:28 AM

Backwoodsman, I'd rather be sworn at than called a Tory supporter. I see it's downgraded to an assumption now. Apparently disagreeing with something you said makes me "an obvious Tory supporter".

How would you describe it otherwise?

Democracy. You still haven't answered my question. If you don't like democracy what are you going to put in its place?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:30 AM

Don't see anything "hilarious" in what Keith said, sales of both papers reflect and influence public opinion it's just that the Mail reflects a much larger percentage of the population's views than the Mirror.

Personally, I do not take a newspaper,

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:31 AM

because The Daily M*il sells more than The Daily Mirror, it reflects public opinion.

It does reflect the opinion of its readers, and its circulation is second only to The Sun.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:38 AM

Sorry, I made a mistake in the immigration figures earlier, the figure of 330,000 was NET Migration, the difference between those coming to the UK and those leaving the actual number coming into the UK was 650,000.

Apparently, I in 8 people in the UK were born abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:46 AM

Meanwhile back at the beer festival we also sampled Poachers (Hykeham) Trembling Rabbit at 3.4% and Portobello (London) VPA at 5.5%

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:51 AM

"Sorry, but left wing views are a minority"

Depends who your friends are. I'm lucky in having friends that are scientists, musicians of all types, visual artists and designers and writers (including poets) as good friends and they are overwhelmingly what you might call 'left wing', although I would suggest it's something different.

These people all have one thing in common: they are curious about the world, how and why it works and see the value in people; they also tend to be less short-termist and interest in acquiring wealth and status. Very few of these people (there are always exceptions of course) are what some might consider 'right-wing'. Many are doctors and folk who work with those less advantaged in life and understand human suffering can be avoided by working as a cohesive society.

These folk aren't saints by any stretch, but they seem to form their opinions less by hitching themselves to someone else's ideology and more by considering actual evidence and circumstance.

The difference between 'left' and 'right' appears to me to be something to do with how you view the world in terms of understanding that science and art can reveal fundamental truths that are essentially independent of any ideology (for instance, geologists don't give a shit if you don't believe in schist; it's there whether you do or not). This translates into a deeper questioning of the nature of life and how we can exist with both each other and everything else we share the planet with; compassion arises naturally as a result of understanding our uniqueness and interconnectedness.

The modern 'right' simply doesn't engage with these questions on any level. It's adherents actively avoid ANY deeper attempt to understand anything that counters their own ideology. This simplistic, nihilistic philosophy is now endemic in the political class, a self-centric worldview that has spread from the excesses of our unregulated corporate culture and now essentially runs the world. Tories, Labour, LibDems, they're all part of the problem. Bilderberg anyone?

This is why Corbyn strikes a chord with so many people and has frightened the politicos of Labour; his core arguments that people should come first, society matters and should be inclusive and equitable are an anathema to the corporate shills that run the country: to them, making a profit is all that matters regardless of the consequences. They have abandoned any pretence of upping the social responsibility that comes with employing lots of people and gathering resources in a sustainable way.

Unregulated, greed-is-good capitalism has failed as surely as communism did in Russia, and people are suffering and dying in numbers across the globe because of this failure. Time to rid the world of this absolutist left-right dichotomy and turn to evidence-based policy formation unencumbered by simplistic ideologies and unthinking, intellectually lazy corporate drones. Time for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:58 AM

I think that is more or less what I have been saying Stu, with a few reservations.
While in transition, we still have to feed ourselves take care of the infrastructure, keep law and order.......this has always been the stumbling block as so many with just "a little bit to lose", will obstruct.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 06:02 AM

That is extremely interesting Raggytash, but I'm not sure what it has to do with British politics?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 06:04 AM

Stu has written a careful and sensitive post on the subject under discussion, it is insulting to interrupt the flow of the thread by printing something completely off topic.....even if it is extremely important to you?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 06:22 AM

I think you will find that Stu posted AFTER I did, if you want to have a go at me fine, but at least get your facts correct.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 06:30 AM

"The folk musicians and singers that I grew up listening to, were home grown and far from "left wing""
The people who stated the present revival were left wing and the brought a social consciousness to the music - as did, in a different way, the people who took the music and used it to make something else incuding the'beautiful people' in the swinging sixties.
You can certainly enjoy folk songs without acknowledging its social significance if that's your choice, but it's only eating a part of the apple, as far as I'm concerned - and having a social interest in folksong as having "quasi·Marxian agendas" is indicative of an agenda, in my experience.
"Long before folk music was adopted by the political left."
It was never "adopted" by the political left - it was brought to the public's attention by cultural let wing groups such as The Workers Music Association, and later by MacColl and Lloyd, whose love of the music for itself has always been unquestionable.
"It does reflect the opinion of its readers, and its circulation is second only to The Sun."
There isn't a shred of evidence that this is the case - neither of them can claim a political following, nor ever have.
The third in line is 'The Mirror' then The Evening Standard.
The bottom of the pile if 'The Independent', which probably reflects the general view of the British people more than any of them.
It's interesting to look down the lists of readership period in the long term.
Between 1950 and 1999, the Mirror was second popular paper in Britain, behind the Sun most recently, before that, behind the Daily Ezpress.
As the Mirror's politics swung to the right, its readership declined.
The Mail has always been right wing (at on time, its owner, Lord Rothermere, was an open supporter of the Nazi regime)
One of the facts of British interest in the media, people no longer rely on the press for information - if they want that, they go to the broadsheets, or those who still eschew broadsheet standards - rapidly diminishing in the hands of Rupe the Drongo and his ilk.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 06:40 AM

I think David is doing a fantastic job, I look forward to ten years of a Conservative government in which we will see the end of a benefits culture, teen party house rewards for becoming pregnant, a massive reduction in immigration to the UK, Eastern Europeans refused benefits and the British taxpayer paying family allowance to half of Poland.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 06:56 AM

"...nowadays - minority governments elected by a minority of the electorate is a reflection of the state of democracy today".
.,,.

That "nowadays" and "today" are tendentiously misapplied, Jim: in that it has never been any different. There has never been a government elected by an absolute majority of those voting, let alone with a majority of the electorate as a whole [with poss exception of 1945, when figures were skewed by all sorts of extraneous factors -- and then it was only just - about 51·5% iirc]. Our constituency-based/1st-past-post system demonstrably doesn't lead to governments elected by a statistical majority; but all surveys & referenda, the last very recently, have consistently demonstrated this to be the system preferred by most voters. Sorry if it doesn't lead to the governments that that-lot-over-there would prefer; but as this system as practised is clearly the preference of the demos, and as they claim to be democrats, they will just have to live with it, eh?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 07:14 AM

"Jim: in that it has never been any different."
Contempt for politicians has reached new levels
That governments have nearly always been elected by a minority is probably true - parliamentary democracy has always been a misnomer, but as our media has swum#ng more and more to the right and out political choice has become virtually indistinguishable one from the other, so our 'democracy' has become less and less democratic.
"preferable"??? - we are set fair for yet another economic crash - never managed to get my head around Marxist theory, he did project the idea that capitalism would decline into more and more crises leading to more and more repression, particularly of the less well-off in society - it seems to be "all happening now", as the song said.
Perferable to those least likely to be affected, maybe!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 07:22 AM

Talk all you want, but Conservatism is here for the next decade thank God

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 07:36 AM

Mollusc - stop being disingenuous. You posted the comment, "I think that has to be the most repulsive statement I've ever seen on Mudcat", completely without context, completely without any explanation as to why you thought that. In the absence of context, it is perfectly natural for anyone reading it to place their own context on it. To pretend that's not the case is, at the very least, disingenuous, at worst, dishonest.

I've already explained that I fully support democracy, Your persistent failure to understand that, or perhaps it's your pretence that I don't, says far more about you than it does about me.

In case you're still unable to understand what's written in plain English, I'll set it out once more in as simple terms as possible:-

I'm a strong, lifelong believer in the principles of democracy.

I'm a strong, lifelong believer in honesty.

I'm a strong, lifelong believer that democracy and honesty are inextricably linked.

I'm a strong, lifelong believer that, without honesty, democracy cannot truly exist.

I believe that the Conservative Party's campaign at the last GE lacked substance, in the form of policies it was prepared to announce and stand by.

I believe that the Conservative Party's campaign at the last GE was based on scare-mongering and lies designed to undermine their opponents, rather than providing truthful information and involving open and honest debate in order for the electorate to make San informed decision for the good of the nation as a whole.

I believe that the conduct of their campaign in that way by the Conservative Party destroyed democracy at the last GE, because undecided voters who were unable to see through the smoke-screen thus laid by the Conservative Party and its media-poodles were unable to base their judgment on truth.

Got it now?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 07:49 AM

"Conservatism is here for the next decade thank God"
Can't as I don't subscribe to primitive superstition, but if it is, so are unacceptable levels of unemployment, further economic crises, increasing homelessness, poverty and a widening gap between haves and have nots (look at the figures) - all of which, under the Conservatives (by whichever party) is doled out in bucketfuls - talk all YOU want (obviously not about the reality of the situation - your side never do)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 07:53 AM

Or, to put it another way, I don't propose anything to 'replace' democracy - I propose that parties determine to work honestly and steadfastly within existing democratic principles.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 07:54 AM

How did the train trip go Raggytash? Sorry I couldn't join you. Mind you, the smoked fish I brought back has found a good home, (belly) and the session I went to Sunday lunchtime was possibly my favourite of the festival.

Apparently they sell more kippers than smoked haddock at that small Whitby smokery so the whole of The UK prefers kippers. Now there's a fact worthy of Keith's logic...

Perhaps Keith's assertion that because The Daily M*il sells the most, followed by The S*n, can be more easily explained by the type of lazy reactionary who only reads what agrees with him. Says more about their intellect than the excellent business model of the tabloids. The Indescribablyboring shows us that those who read newspapers don't want facts, they just want to justify their own bigotry. Hence the failed business model, propped up only by those who like a good read but don't want shallow idiots on the train with Keith's mindset judging them by their choice of comic. (Prejudging is the word to use of course.)

Of course, Keith is also making the mental leap that to read it is to agree with it. I should read The S*n then, because I'd rather stare at a pair of tits than read the bollocks in their editorial.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 07:55 AM

Sorry Jim, that was for our tame mollusc, not you.
It's difficult when there are multiple conversations running, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 08:29 AM

Very good post by Stu above. Backwoodsman, the main problem is that the media have distorted the political debate, and there is a good case for enforcing a duty of impartiality on the printed press as well as the broadcast media. Especially when so much of the media is owned by foreign interests. The lies of the conservatives, the paranoia, the xenophobia (of which the Scottish seemed to be amongst the primary targets) not only echoed conservative thought, but fuelled it. Would Hammond or May or Javid or Hancock be espousing such extreme viewpoints if not egged on by the Murdoch and Dacre press? I have no doubt that Gove and IDS would, they really believe this stuff, but I am not so sure about the others. We either have to have a restriction on foreign ownership, or a duty of impartiality, or both.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 09:27 AM

So are virtually all politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 09:42 AM

The folk musicians and singers that I grew up listening to, were home grown and far from "left wing"

This from a man growing up in Scotland and, presumably, listening to local folk music in, what? 50s? 60s? 70s? Music inspired by names like Dick Gaughan, Hamish Imlach and Hamish Henderson?

Either lying about Scottish folk music, never heard it or is an idiot. I would go for all three.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 09:49 AM

"It's difficult when there are multiple conversations running, eh?"
You talkin ta me, huh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: TheSnail
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 09:53 AM

Backwoodsman
I've already explained that I fully support democracy

Dismissing everyone who didn't vote the way you wanted to as feeble-minded is incompatible with democracy. Everything you say about the Tory party and the right wing press is true. It's your contempt for the electorate that I have trouble with.

What does it achieve? Do you think they are sat there in Labour Party HQ thinking "All those Tory voters are obviously feeble-minded so there's nothing we can do about that."? I imagine they are looking for ways to win them back.

Your accusation that I was "an obvious Tory supporter" was not based on anything I actually said. My accusation that you are anti-democratic is based on precisely what you said.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 10:32 AM

I can't be arsed to argue with you any more. I don't have contempt for the electorate, I have contempt for liars and deceivers who prey on those who can't or won't think it through for themselves.

And I have contempt for keyboard warriors like you who are spoiling for a fight from the anonymity of their computer.

Sorry, fun's over, you'll have to find another victim.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 10:35 AM

I don't usually respond to trolls, but I can't miss this one.
An English resident of Polish origin lecturing me on Scottish folk music.....:0)

My time was before Gaughan, Imlach, or Henderson. Although I knew Big Hamish pretty well and respect the writing of Hamish Henderson, I wouldn't describe either as very "left wing".

No you cheeky little troll, I was brought up on Gaelic song a culture all on its own in which the intricacies of labour relations or gender "equality" never intruded. Life was simple joyous and often hard.....but "that's what makes it worth while" as my disabled uncle used to tell me.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 10:40 AM

I believe that the Conservative Party's campaign at the last GE was based on scare-mongering and lies designed to undermine their opponents, rather than providing truthful information and involving open and honest debate in order for the electorate to make San informed decision for the good of the nation as a whole.

That just does not stand up.
Labour put their own case and attacked the Tory case.
Labour, Lib Dems, SNP and UKIP and the broadcasters would expose any "scare-mongering and lies" of the Tories.

The electorate of England is just not very left wing.
That does not mean that they must be exceptionally gullible, and easily hoaxed by "scare-mongering and lies."
You kid yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 10:44 AM

Xenophobic to boot..

I doubt the likes of the Scottish political performers would wish to align themselves with the confused ramblings portrayed on here.

Anyway, Gaughan supports SNP, which makes you politically way off his radar...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 10:50 AM

Rag, there is a current thread actually devoted to beer anecdotes.
You have made just one post on it, and not even about beer!
Do you even read thread titles?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 11:08 AM

The troll said I was "Either lying or an idiot", but I am neither a liar nor an idiot.
The troll is both. In my youth Gaughan, Imlach and Henderson were unheard of. He knows nothing of Scottish folk music.

Folk music existed long before it was taken up by the left, in fact, even many of the revival groups and singers were in no way left wing.
"Protest songs" were the first intrusion of politics into folk music, it gradually killed the genre and after a transfusion of financial aspiration and education, it is completely extinct.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 11:55 AM

so err.. What protest songs were they?

I have many in my repertoire from The Chartist movement, anti war songs from Crimean and even Napoleonic, many others lamenting conditions in the heat of the industrial revolution...

MacColl collected many Scottish protest songs from a hundred or two years back, thinking on. Many of them in that guttural language they used to use.

You do talk bollocks, even when not denigrating others.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 11:57 AM

Oh. Beers come and go, but I was delighted last night to see Old Peculiar on at a pub we were playing at, and I wasn't driving. Granted, couldn't tuck in properly till after the second set, but a good nostalgic sup.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 12:42 PM

I haven't drunk alcohol since December 2005 (health issues), but I have fond memories of Tom Woods bitter and Bateman's XXXX.

but I'd take a couple of tots of Highland Park or Bunnahabheinn over any beer. Or perhaps as well as...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 12:44 PM

"Folk music existed long before it was taken up by the left,"
Of course it did, but it lay pretty dormant for quite a while until the left started up the club scene and drew the attention of those outside the communities to it.
"....Henderson were unheard of."
You must be blood old - Henderson was one of he pioneers in Scotland, collecting songs and writing about them in the forties,
He was the main organisers of The Peoples' Concerts in Edinburgh, which introduced Jeannie Robertson, Flora McNeil, Jessie Murray, Jimmy McBeath.... and many other field singers to urban audiences.
"revival groups and singers were in no way left wing."
The instigators were - Lomax, both in the States and in Britain; he was recoding songs in the penitentiaries, with his father, and later he came to Britain and persuaded the singers here to stop pretending they were cowboys, and take a look at their own repertoire.
Organisations like C.N.D. played an immeasurable part in popularising our repertoires.
You'll be telling us Rabbie Burns voted Conservative next!
"were the first intrusion of politics into folk music, it gradually killed the genre "
They most certainly were not - MacColl and Lloyd were working on Industrial songs (in Bert's case, mining songs for the N.U.M.) in the forties) and MacColl was involved with the BBC, , with producers such as Bridson and Gilliam as early as the depression in the thirties.
What with Blair Peach, and now the left in folksong, you are what they call over here in Ireland 'a begrudger' - you certainly are the strangest 'socialist', I have ever encountered.
Far from ruining folk song, it's politics invigorated it - if anything killed the genre - it was the 'milk-and-water' approach that divorced the songs from their social roots.   
You really do need (desparately) to decide which side of the political divide you are on.
I suggest you follow up Muskies excellent point about the Chartists et al - a collection of the earliest known songs (in Latin and in Old English) goes back as far as King John (see Thomas Wright's 'Political Songs of England from the reign of John to that of Edward II'.)
In your own part of the world, the Jacobite movement was pushing inspiring songs as if they were going out of fashion and as for Ireland.... political songs form an enormous part of the traditional repertoire.
You appear to be as uninformed about folk songs as you are about left politics - if that were possible!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 01:11 PM

I agree with you Jim, 99 per cent, Burns[ as i am sure you know] however was an exciseman, a Tax collector. I agree he wrote songs and poetry which were not status quo and questioned the status quo.
But was only able to do so by earning his living as a tool of the eablishment., much worse he was a feckin freemason.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 01:12 PM

Now where had I got up to.

The next we sampled were Rebellion Brewery (Marlow) Jolly Roger at 4.2% and then a Prowler Pale 3.6% from the Red Cat Brewery (Winchester)

In the next instalment I'll tell you of my favourite beer of the day.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 01:20 PM

Musket, It's a pity we couldn't meet for a chat and a pint.

The train trip was wonderful (as always) More than fifty of us gathered in the pub in Glaisdale away from the horde of day tourists in Whitby. A wonderful array of singing and some great tunes. A very mixed bag of styles, everything you could want in a session.

We rattled the can for the Rescue Boat at Runswick and on Tuesday I will pay over £140 into their account.

The only hiccup was that the train back was VERY late but we got round that by singing on the station platform. A good day all round.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 01:24 PM

Robert Burns was initiated into masonic Lodge St David, Tarbolton, on 4 July 1781, when he was 22.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 02:44 PM

Keith says:

"That just does not stand up.
Labour put their own case and attacked the Tory case.
Labour, Lib Dems, SNP and UKIP and the broadcasters would expose any "scare-mongering and lies" of the Tories."

Except that they didn't. There were quite robust rebuttals, which were just not reported. The print media is entirely in the tories' pockets (including apparently the Guardian these days), the BBC is bound by a duty of impartiality (and completely hamstrung by tory complaints even when they are impartial), and Sky is owned by a far-right foreign demagogue. So the prevailing narrative was of fear that the Scottish would have undue influence, whereas the alternative, and far more justified narrative that the city of London has undue influence was suppressed. There is no independent press, the press and Sky/ITV do a more thorough job of pushing the tory viewpoint than Pravda ever did for the Soviet communist party.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 03:07 PM

"Robert Burns was initiated into masonic Lodge St David,"
So?
BURNS FREEMASONARY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 03:33 PM

So?
IMO Freemasonry is the epitome of cronyism, the sort of attitude that is prevalent amongst most establishment political parties, so IMO Burns had something in common with many Conservatives, a belief in secret societies, freemasonry, IMO has nothing to do with socialism nothing to do with equality, but more in common with capitalism,cronyism.
we will never know how he voted, but since the meaning of Tories here
2The Tory political faction originally emerged within the Parliament of England to uphold the legitimist rights of James, Duke of York, to succeed his brother Charles II to the throne. James II was a Catholic, while the state institutions had broken from the Catholic Church—this was an issue for the Exclusion Bill supporting Patricians, the political heirs to the nonconformist Roundheads and Covenanters. There were two Tory ministries under James II; the first led by Lord Rochester, the second by Lord Belasyse. A significant faction took part in the ousting of James II with the Whigs to defend the Anglican Church or definitive protestantism. A large but dwindling faction of Tories held sympathy for Catholic Stuart heirs to the throne from the accession of the first Hanoverian monarch in 1714, many of which supported Jacobitism, the military campaigns of which saw them lost and castigated. Although only a minority of Tories gave their adhesion to the Jacobite risings."
it would appear Burns had much in coMmon with Tories

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 04:14 PM

Of course Burns was a conservative, most people are conservative and 200years ago everyone was conservative.

You are confusing Party politics with social mores....again.

That is a fatal mistake and the reason all you so called lefties are running around like headless chickens.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 04:29 PM

I have read Burn extensively and believe that his ideas on universal brotherhood were not political, but religious in nature.
The teachings of Christ sing sweetly throughout his work, He despised the hypocrisy of the establishment, but he held a deep faith until his death......He was a social conservative without doubt, we could do with more like him and the idiocies of present day "liberalism" would be "grist tae his mill"

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 04:38 PM

Funny fucking communist.

The problem with omov democracy is that it depends on the concept of the informed vote, much as the central fallacy of capitalism is "effective demand".

We have mostly a misinformed vote.

If that was the pub I think it was, I did not enjoy the Old Peculier there. I was saddened not to be able to get a Tetley's Imperial anywhere. And I kept an eye out for a Rainsong and did not see one, and also kept an eye out for Lowdens and only saw one and that a lefty. More sensible than it's owner eh?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 05:01 PM

First and foremost, let me make it clear that I hold no candle for freemasonry. It stinks. But judging people who lived 200 years ago, and who were masons, by the standards of today is just ridiculous. Freemasonry, like many other institutions, has evolved, in its case rather badly. It would be quite instructive to investigate whether any of your historical heroes were masons. At least two of mine, Haydn and Mozart, were masons, and not secretively so. Have a quick google and you might just find yourself feeling a little uncomfortable about some of your heroes who just happened to be masons. That is, if you absolutely insist on judging them by today's standards. Alternatively, just cut the old guys a bit of slack, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 06:53 PM

Richard, the Black Horse has Tetleys Imperial on 7 days a week 52 weeks a year.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 15 - 08:12 PM

"The teachings of Christ sing sweetly throughout his work"
Yet religious hypocricy and the bigotry of the church was a constant theme in Burns' works - the cutty stool, the shaming of 'sinners'.. burns at his bitter best.
BURNS AND RELIGION
Burns reveled in sexuality - a total anathema to the church.
You seem to have your own take on everything which has nothing whatever to do with actual reality
"IMO Freemasonry is the epitome of cronyism,"
it is now - Burns certainly didn't regard it as such, and for the times he lived in he was a libertarian and a humanist.
Taking values from Burns' time and applying them to today just doesn't work.
a href="http://www.robertburns.org/encyclopedia/PoliticsBurnsand.720.shtml">Burns' politics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:28 AM

So the man who says Hamish Henderson is not left wing also says I am a liar and an idiot? He also regularly declares he does not indulge in personal abuse, reminding me that I missed one facet of his character. Hypocrite.

You are making me jealous, Raggy. May well visit the local later for one of the best pints of Black Sheep to be had :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:29 AM

Except that they didn't. There were quite robust rebuttals, which were just not reported.

I saw and heard them rebutted on the media all the time.
Question Time, Any Questions, News Night, Andrew Mar, the various leaders' debates.........

I am sure that Guardian and Mirror editorials and reports did the same.
It was also a major issue in the 2010 election.

It was a fair fight, and in England the Left lost this time.
You can not ascribe that result to a feeble minded electorate or to a feeble Left incapable of responding to the opposing campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:35 AM

In the Guardian most certainly not. Most of them were still trying to rescue the Lib Dems. Below the line on CiF yes, but in teh comment section and the printed newspaper, no.

Andrew Marr also no, almost as tory as Nick Robinson. The latter was indisposed for part of the time and replaced by Norman Smith, even more staunchly tory.

It was a completely skewed election and I regard Cameron as no more legitimate than Kim Jong Un

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:54 AM

"So the man who says Hamish Henderson is not left wing"
Fair's fair Dave, he actually said nobody had heard of Hamish Henderson - get his idiocy right!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 05:00 AM

ok jim and steve,point taken

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 05:30 AM

Oh, but I think I did get it right, Jim. The exact phrase was


My time was before Gaughan, Imlach, or Henderson. Although I knew Big Hamish pretty well and respect the writing of Hamish Henderson, I wouldn't describe either as very "left wing".

Obviously being a dedicated communist is not left wing enough for our village idiot :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 05:32 AM

Andrew Mar had leading Labour figures, including Miliband every week, as did all the other programmes.
The opposing claims were put to them and they answered them.

Balance is a legal requirement for broadcasters and no party claimed that requirement was not met.
You just can not claim that Labour speakers were deprived of a media platform.

All you can say is that they failed to convince.
It was a fair fight and they lost.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 05:45 AM

Marr was once a member of the Socialist Campaign for a Labour Victory (an offshoot of the International-Communist League, now known as the Alliance for Workers' Liberty). At Cambridge, Marr says he was a "raving leftie", and he acquired the nickname 'Red Andy'

Norman Smith, during the election campaign said on Radio 4 Today that austerity was 'utterly terrifying'. He said that cuts risked taking Britain back to the sort of Depression-era poverty George Orwell wrote about in his 1937 book The Road To Wigan Pier.
The Tories objected to his bias against them.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 05:47 AM

A "dedicated Communist"....:0)

This from Gaughan is nearer the mark.... "Perhaps the only real way to remember and understand Hamish is to embrace the apparent contradictions - poet and polemicist, Internationalist and Nationalist, warrior and pacifist, realist and romantic, traditionalist and modernist, brashness masking shyness, intellectual confidence hiding personal insecurities."

Don't get me wrong I am an admirer of his work, an artist, not a "dedicated" anything.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 06:21 AM

Next we sampled what, to me, was the best beer of the festival which was the Red Fox Brewery Bitter at 3.8% very quaffable indeed. The Red Fox Brewery is in Coggeshall, Essex. We also sampled Rock a Hula 4.0% from the Rockin' Robin Brewery in Maidstone.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 06:32 AM

"Oh, but I think I did get it right, Jim.
He also said:
"In my youth Gaughan, Imlach and Henderson were unheard of."
A double helping of idiocy, you might say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 09:12 AM

No, not dedicated at all

A lifelong socialist, he used the prize money to travel to Italy to work on his translation of the Prison Letters of Antonio Gramsci, the philosopher and founder of the Italian Communist Party, though the work was not published for many years. It was a sensitive subject in Italy at the time and Henderson was asked to leave the country.

Absolutley. It requires no dedication at all to spend your own money, laboriously translate an the prison letters of the founder of the Italian communist party, knowing that they would not be published and then have to flee a country for your own political views.

You could, of course, try to prove that this was not dedication with a quote from a person you had already dismissed as 'before your time' but that would make you look foolish wouldn't it.

Oh, hang on...

Yes indeed, Jim. Double, or even treble. Talking of which, about time I set off over them there hills to work up a thirst for some of those decent beers we have been talking about. Possibly Timmy Taylors over in Keighley before my own local Black Sheep. Looks cloudy but hopefully the rain will hold off.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 10:00 AM

As Gaughan was a personal friend of Hamish's, I would prefer to accept his views on the matter rather than your hysterical claptrap.

I also had the good fortune to meet him once in the company of Ian Hamilton.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 11:25 AM

"I would prefer to accept his views on the matter rather than your hysterical claptrap."
I'm sure you would - doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to the fact that virtually every reference to Henderson refers to him as either a communist or a Marxist and songs such as 'Freedom Come all Ye' and 'Rivonia' attest to that fact.
It really isn't a matter of "accepting" anybody's views - hysterical or otherwise, on Henderson's politics - he stated his position openly - I was pre4sent when he lectured at MacColl's 70th birthday symopsium and was even punished as a serviceman for acting on them.
It is true that he probably isn't a Marxist in your definition of the term, but Karl Marx would have had trouble convincing you that he was - you seem to be operating from your own personal dictionary that nobody else has access to.
You really should heed the maxim - 'Put not your trust in folkies".
Jim Carroll
More of his Wiki entry.
"Hamish Scott Henderson, (11 November 1919 – 9 March 2002; Scottish Gaelic: Seamas MacEanraig (Seamas Mòr)) was a Scottish poet, songwriter, communist, soldier and intellectual."
"Henderson was a socialist,[1] and beside his academic work for the University, he produced translations of the Prison Letters of Antonio Gramsci.[5] whom he had first heard of among Communist Italian partisans during the war. The translation was published in the New Edinburgh Review in 1974 and as a book in 1988.[1] He was involved in campaigns for Scottish home rule and in the foundation of the 1970s Scottish Labour Party. Henderson, who was openly bisexual, was vocal about gay rights and acceptance.[1][6]
In 1983, Henderson was voted Scot of the Year by Radio Scotland listeners when he, in protest of the Thatcher government's nuclear weapons policy, turned down an OBE.[1]2"

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 11:39 AM

The troll declared Hamish to be a "dedicated Communist", that is patently untrue. As I believe you have some knowledge of the Communist Party, you should know that Jim.
There is nothing in the Wiki piece which you quoted to indicate that he was a "dedicated Communist", rather a writer, poet and biographer, of indeterminate persuasion.
Nationalist and Internationalist.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 11:50 AM

We also tasted Topaz Blonde 3.7% from the S & P Brewery, Norwich and Great Dane 4.6% from Stonehenge Brewery, Salisbury

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 12:20 PM

" that is patently untrue"
It wasn't anything of the sort and the only thing you have put up to contradict it is a quote from a folkie
"As I believe you have some knowledge of the Communist Party,"
The onlt knowledge I have of the C.P. is what I have read - but I have known members who claimed Henderson as one of their own - horses mouth - sort of...
Hederson declared himself to be a committed Communist on the couple of occasions I met him, and his actions backed that up can't get nearer to the bone than that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 02:25 PM

Lovely walk this afternoon. Decided that I didn't have time for walking and beer so combined the two :-) First pint - After about 2 miles - was Timmy Taylors landlord. Next one - 1.5 miles later - Saltaire Blonde. Next, a mile or so later, back to Taylors, Golden Best. Then, half a mile on, Black sheep and finally, in the same pub, Leeds Pale Ale. Back home now and wondering whether the idiot is allowed out on his own. If so, I suspect he shouldn't be. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 02:58 PM

BTW - Anyone notice how the village idiot is trying to divert attention from the fact that he said that Hamish Henderson was not particularly left wing?

The troll declared Hamish to be a "dedicated Communist", that is patently untrue.

I am not sure who it is referring to but the fact remains that HH was a communist dedicated to the cause. Is it so difficult to see? How come idiocy like this is allowed to stand? I suspect Max is running an experiment to see how stupid people can be. I know I have fallen foul of it once or twice but I am pretty sure that posterity will show who were the real idiots :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 03:05 PM

"Hamish Henderson was not particularly left wing?"
Hamish was a card-carrying member of The Communist party until the invasion of Hungary in 1956.
Like many other Communists who left around the same time, he remained true to his communist convictions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 03:10 PM

No need to tell me, Jim, I know. The village idiot seems to think it is funny to deny it. I think he needs to get a new profession :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 03:58 PM

"Hamish was never a member of the Communist Party"

Timothy Neat biographer 2012.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:08 PM

Then we tried a Lumford 3.9% from the Thornbridge Brewery in Bakewell and we couldn't reaaly not sample Timothy Taylors Boltmaker at 4.3%

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:15 PM

While you were digging your own hole Jim, I knew that he never carried a CP card.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:22 PM

Ahhhh, OK. This is the Timothy Neat who was born and brought up in Cornwall? Round about as far from Scotland as you can get in the British Isles? Yet it quite happily derides my view as being that of "An English resident of Polish origin ".

I think if I was not laughing so much I might start to feel sick.

Hamish Henderson was a communist. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to fool others or, even worse, trying to fool themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 04:53 PM

"Since 2002 Timothy has been working on a major two-volume biography of his great friend and collaborator, Hamish Henderson."

Take you beating like a man! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Aug 15 - 07:39 PM

Anyone notice that the village idiot seems to be trying to draw people away from the fact that he said Hamish Henderson was not particularly left wing? I would have put that down to some sort of basic intelligence if it was anyone else...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 04:30 AM

Impressive list of books by T Neat,
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=timothy+neat&tag=googhydr-21&index=stripbooks&hvadid=28030980393&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=s&hvrand=10726035537892829258&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_1o5kuky1m7_e

His biog. of Henderson,
"A biography of Hamish Henderson, well-known as a songwriter, a poet, and a pioneer in the field of Scottish folksong. This book assesses his place in the context of the twentieth century. It is based on interviews with those who knew Henderson both personally and professionally as well as research of published and unpublished sources."
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V768BQAAQBAJ&dq=hamish+henderson+communist+politics&lr=&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 04:34 AM

Biography
Timothy Neat is a writer and film maker who, after sixteen years as a lecturer in the History of Art at Duncan at Jordanstone College of Art in Dundee, gave up teaching (in 1988) to work in the independent sector. Brought up in Cornwall, he has lived all his adult life Scotland - supplementing his literary income with work as a migratory beekeeper, wild mushroom hunter and salmon netter.

About writer's work
all Neat's published books have a documentary base. They deal largely with Scottish subjects -people, poetry, art, music and folk culture and Highland life. His books have a strong visual component (photographs): his films have a strong literary and musical emphasis. He writes poetry, takes photographs, and draws. Close friendships with Hamish Henderson, John Berger, Sorley MacLean and Ian Hamilton Finlay have strongly influenced his ideas and work.
http://www.scottishbooktrust.com/profile-author/18168

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 04:44 AM

So, has anyone actualy read this book? I take it that we have all read the personal appreciation of Henderson by Dick Gaughan that the village idiot quoted from? The one that says

He was a communist who left the party over Hungary in '56.

Or are we now down to quoting from a book that no-one has read but may or may not say something in support of the ridiculous claim that Henderson was not particularly left wing? Down to misleading snippets from book reviews quickly snatched off the internet? Again...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 04:50 AM

Ah, but Neats books are available on-line and that not a PROPER bookshop is it.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 04:51 AM

BTW, Raggy, Boltmaker is Best Bitter, re-branded about three years ago. Remember when we could get Taylors at the Duke of York before you emigrated? My favourite was always RamTam

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 04:52 AM

perhaps he was a communist like i'm a racist...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 05:05 AM

Al, get over it. The thread you refer to no longer exists so there is no evidence that you said that east Europeans are criminals and no evidence that anyone called you a called you racist. OK? The only person who ever brings it up is you.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 05:15 AM

there does some tobe some dispute. Wikipedia calls him a communist in the first sentence.

However he wrote that lament thing for members of the British Army - that's not really much of a communist.

James Connolly wouldn't have done that. Thats a communist!

Lets just agree - he had left wing leanings.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 05:16 AM

well it sticks in the mind - someone calling you a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 05:18 AM

and calling someone the village idiot isn't argument. its just abuse and doesn't strengthen your argument in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 05:29 AM

I'm pretty sure the Duke of York was still a Whitbread pub before I emigrated down south in 1980

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 05:58 AM

anyway- the point I was making wasn't party political. Cameron is a shit! We're living in an Etonocracy. Applies to the labour Party as well.

They're not one of us. Why are they ruling us?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 05:59 AM

It was, Raggy - But they were one of the few at the time to have guest ales. Not sure when they started to do it though so it could well have been after your time.

Al, the whole point is that ake said that Hamish Henderson was not particularly left wing. So how can it be agreed? I am pretty sure that there are communist soldiers aplenty so I am not sure how a lament for dead soldiers disqualifies anyone from being a communist either.

As to the racist thing I can assure you that my memory is as good as yours and when someone says that east Europeans have criminal tendencies it sticks in my mind too. Someone did say that and I replied that that was a racist comment. Which it is. If it was not you that said it, then I must have been referring to someone else. And I repeat once again, it is only ever you that brings it up. It would have been long forgotten by now if you had not.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 06:19 AM

""Hamish was never a member of the Communist Party""
"He was a communist who left the party over Hungary in '56. He was offered an OBE and turned it down. He was a Republican who fought regularly and passionately with me over my view of Charles Edward Stewart being as much use to Scotland as a dose of cholera. He was the anti-Nazi who spoke fluent German, loved German culture and raised eyebrows when his "Elegies for the Dead in Cyrenaica" talked of German soldiers with compassion and almost affection."
Dick Gaughan
LINKS IN THE CHAIN
"As Gaughan was a personal friend of Hamish's, I would prefer to accept his views on the matter rather than your hysterical claptrap."
Unquote.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 06:23 AM

well perhaps he was a bit left wing about some things, like most of us are. Communists are a weird lot in England. Ian Campbell was one, I remeber his phone was tapped by by one of the security services, and he sent his kids to YC weekend camps. I think it was a pretty serious business for those who actually were card carrying people in the war - some of them got locked up. Henderson joined the army - so he couldn't have been too deeply in it.

I recommend Edward Upwards book In the Thirties, its very good on that pre Hungary atmosphere of paranoia. Up ward was at cambridge with Isherwood, but was hetero so didn't join the gay party in Berlin. he became a CP mem=ber/ secondary school teacher.

I think you are confusing me with Reynard Heydrich, Dave - he definitely said something like that. I never did. I said i saw a shop, owned by a mate in Boston being robbed by Eastern Europeans. I said, call the police. The shopkeeper said - no point, because of the influs of immigrants here in this town, the situation is out of hand.

I'm not a liar. If bearing witness to an incident makes me a racist in your eyes, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 06:35 AM

I think the point is Al is that you say "I said i saw a shop, owned by a mate in Boston being robbed by Eastern Europeans. I said, call the police. The shopkeeper said - no point, because of the influs of immigrants here in this town, the situation is out of hand"

How did you KNOW they were Eastern Europeans, they could have been people from Lincoln, Skegness, Boston or even Manchester.

The fact that you PRESUMED they were Eastern European and THUS a problem is what is being argued here.

For my own part I loved the Polish club and the Ukraine club in Huddersfield together with the most generous people I met in them.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 06:37 AM

Neither am I, Al. I don't think Reynard Heydrich has ever posted on Mudcat. You have. If you say you never said it, then so be it but if it was not you that said it, I must have meant that someone else had made a racist comment. The thread has gone. I cannot find out who said it. By the same token you have no evidence of what was said either. Why not just leave it at that?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 06:40 AM

"perhaps he was a communist like i'm a racist... "

One of the best lines you've ever written Big Al :0)
You have written a lot of good stuff, but you could construct a great song around that one line...well done.

The point is, I know that Hamish Henderson never joined the Communist Party, before or after Hungary.
He may have agreed with some Communist policies....we all do that, he certainly supported Scottish Nationalism, he supported our armed forces, unlike some "socialists" here......he was as Gaughan says an independent thinker

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 06:43 AM

Dunno how far you're going back, Raggytash, but I spent many a happy evening, frequently somewhat less than sober, at the Polish clubs in Oldham, Rochdale and especially Bury in my early 20s. In fact, I very nearly married a Polish girl who I met at Bury Polish club. She saw the light just in time...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 06:53 AM

Do we have to suffer these people on EVERY thread?
Keith kindly opened another thread on beer drinking especially for them, which after the nastiness he had been subjected to by them, was far and above the call of duty   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 06:54 AM

"well perhaps he was a bit left wing about some things, l"
Henderson was a Marxist - he actually wrote on Marxism (about Gramschi), he quoted Marx in his writing and in the talks he have - his songs reflected his political position.
Can I remind people of how this bizarre offshoot began
It was suggested that the introduction of politics ruined folk song; it was pointed out that politics has been part of folk song for many centuries, in England and particularly Scotland and Ireland - radio silence on that one.
It was claimed that Hamish Henderson wasn't around in the early days of the folk song revival - it was pointed out just how long he had been around (since the forties, at least) - radio silence on that one.
It was claimed that Henderson was not political, despite his political songs, writing and statements - radio silence on that one.
Now it seems to have retreated to whether he was a Communist Party member or not.
Whether he was or not is immaterial - He as a political songwriter and poet - no argument on that whatever.
He described himself as "a communist" on at least two occasions I heard him speak.
His attitude to the people he collected from and wrote about was that of a left-wing humanist (small H).
Since at least the mid-sixties there have been more communists outside the Communist Party than there are members, and Henderson was one of those.
Can we move on?
Jim Carroll
A summary of Henderson's politics from Timothy Neat's book:
"Henderson emerged as one of the few intellectuals in Scotland able and willing to take on Hugh MacDiarmid: their public confrontations, particularly about the literary value of the folk tradition, were seminal and, in retrospect, these two very different poets can be seen to stand as the twin piers of 'revolutionary thought' in modern Scotland, archetypal representatives of Apollonian and Dionysian energy. They were Robespierre and Danton: MacDiarmid the small, ascetic, atheistic Presbyterian, Henderson the Falstaffian, Episcopal libertarian."

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 07:01 AM

Just for the record, I got to visit Poland several times for work. I found the people there very welcoming and very bright (many of them were fluent in my language, for a start). They were also very open-minded and willing to learn - unlike some of my British colleagues who thought they knew it all but, in fact, they knew very little.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 07:02 AM

Gentle smile towards the benefits of thread drift.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 07:08 AM

i knew. i was there. you weren't. you can't take my word for it. that's okay. it doesn't fit in with your manifesto - wear a fucking paper bag over your head and let the politburo tell you whats happening for all I care!
i suppose me and ake just have to soak up the abuse you dish out. i see no hysterical clatrap from him or me.

i see a lot of two legs good, four legs bad left wing shit from your direction.

no one is allowed to have an experience or express an idea that doesn't fit in with your doctrinaire bollocks.
of course, having led a full an interesting life as a gigging musician. i have been in Polish clubs. that has fuck all to do with my experience on the streets of Boston. all of which happened.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 07:14 AM

Finally at the beer festival we sampled the Cwtch from Tiny Rebel Brewery. Cwtch won Champion Beer of Britain 2015 a decent enough brew but quite honestly it wasn't the best beer we sampled all afternoon and as you can see we sampled quite a few.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 07:16 AM

"Do we have to suffer these people on EVERY thread?"

Who's this "we"? You're going to have to put up with it, old chap. We have to put up with far worse nonsense from you, after all. Viva thread drift! I'm with Stanron!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 07:55 AM

I think Stanron was being ironic Steve.

Correct me if I am wrong Stanron, but was your meaning not that drifting off topic could be useful in avoiding a crushing defeat in debate?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 08:06 AM

oh come..thread drift is good.

all of this may be true Jim.

ake seems to have broken bread with the man. i'd go with his instincts on the matter , rather than some writer who is clearly talking tripe.

Robespierre ad Danton for godsake...neither Henderson or MacDiarmid used to cut peoples heads off!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 08:16 AM

"neither Henderson or MacDiarmid used to cut peoples heads off"

That you know of!!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 08:18 AM

'
"neither Henderson or MacDiarmid used to cut peoples heads off"

That you know of!!'

admittedly true...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 08:27 AM

Steve, I have no objection to you or anyone else talking "nonsense", as long as it is applicable to the thread. For example, stating that Hamish Henderson was a "card carrying Communist" may be incorrect, (nonsense in your parlance), but it does have a tenuous connection to the thread.

Discussing beer here, when another specially opened thread is available for the purpose is just rank bad manners(yobbish behaviour).

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 08:36 AM

I am reminded of an old song by Paul Sherratt of Manchester called, I think, "The Camra Crawl" part of which went:

Twenty pints of Holts
Twenty pints of Holts
you've just been sick on the floor
you shouldn't eat curry I've told you before
if you're in a hurry that ways the door
twenty pints of Holts

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 08:38 AM

I'd rather not take lectures on thread drift from a fellow who, on innumerable occasions, has waded in with his anti-gay hobby horse on threads of any topic at all whenever he sees half a chance to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 08:43 AM

Not only that, but you are squabbling about Hamish Henderson's political affiliations in a thread that started off about how horrible David Cameron is supposed to be. Cast out the plank, old boy. Or just go with the flow and stop moaning.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 08:52 AM

One of the worst pints I ever had was a pint of Holts in Radcliffe (the pub name escapes me now). The pint had what appeared to be floes of cheesy scum floating on top and was as flat as a witch's tit. I was young and too diffident to send it back. I've had decent pints of Holts (though never what I'd call stunning) since then, so I blame the pub. But the prize for worst booze ever goes to a terrible pint of rough cider served up.at the Gypsy's Tent in Dudley some time in 1973. I wasn't right for days (thought the six pints of Holden's Golden consumed that same evening probably didn't help).

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 09:02 AM

Well as this yobbish behaviour is OBVIOUSLY a tactic, perhaps admin could step in once again, to redirect rogue posts to their proper home?
Wherever that may be...   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 09:09 AM

Every post in this thread that isn't purely about whether Cameron is execrable or not is rogue post. Which is nearly all of yours, for starters. Those poor mods... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 09:10 AM

"Robespierre ad Danton for godsake."
Two shade of revolutionary philosophy, and not a bad comparison, as it happens.
Don't know about breaking bread with him, but I tried drinking with him once, (with my friend Tom Munnelly at a folk song conference), and couldn't keep up with either of them, so I retired thoroughly defeated.
By the way - one of the early picture postcards of The Padstow May procession features Hamish in the middle of the crowd - not a lot of peaple know that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 10:06 AM

to have revolutionary thoughts and go off and write a poem about it is somewhat different from, having a revolutionary thought and then guillotining a few hundred people about it.

a significant difference , in my opinion.

you wouldn't like to be compared to Robespierre, would you.

I've always thought of you as more of a Scarlet Pimpernel, Jim. Saving the aristo MacColl from the hands of the mob at the gates of the folk club.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 10:11 AM

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 10:50 AM

"different from, having a revolutionary thought and then guillotining a few hundred people about it."
I think you'll find that neither Robespierre not Danton didn't actually guillotine anybody - others did that- ironically, both of them ended up going for premature haircuts!
It wasn't a comparison in action, rather - theoretical approach.
They were the theorists of the French Revolution.
Why are you belabouring this Al? - unless you think it isn't a good analogy, in which case, take it up with Timothy Neat.
Your MacColl reference is as worthy of comment as most of them are!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 10:59 AM

I've heard it said that Holts is a hard pint to like. All the hoppiness you could want to taste but non of the aroma. If I had the choice I would prefer Hydes. Both family run Manchester brews and both still at pleasant prices. Who'd live in London?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 11:12 AM

Holts are now doing some quite exceptional bottled beers that used to sell well in my local, which was a Holts Pub! (Red Lion, Irlams o'th' Height) I believe you can get them all over the country and they do travel pretty well.

Holts bottled beers

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 11:20 AM

My apologies Stanron, I stand corrected :0)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 12:31 PM

"I've heard it said that Holts"
Seem to remember it was Holts who made and bottled their own gin in Mosside - revolting stuff!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 12:49 PM

Holts brewery is in Newton Heath. Hydes was nearer to Miss Side. But they did not necessarily make gin at the brewery of course. Their own label spirits are all pretty ropey.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 01:37 PM

I used to live quite near the Hydes brewery. A smallish brick built and traditional looking place. Just a few hundred yards down the road is what looks like a giant oil refinery which brews some appalling gloop like lager. Can't remember the name.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 03:22 PM

McEwans Royal Brewery - They brewed Harp Lager and a couple of others if I remember rightly. Your memory, like mine, has probably blanked out the names as being undrinkable :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 03:32 PM

I think that Harp "Brewery" made Guinness there at one time in the 60's & 70's

Ugghhhh

My local at the time was the "Top House" (or Railway as it was then) The landlord at the time swore he got his Guinness from Dublin. It was certainly the best pint of Guinness in Manchester at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 03:37 PM

Was that the top house at Patricroft? Queens arms if I remember rightly. Best pint of Boddies for miles and overlooking the Patricroft shunting yards. Hours of fun for beer and train enthusiasts alike :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 03:49 PM

Ahhh - Sorry. Just saw you said the Railway. Top of Church Street?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 04:00 PM

The "Top House" Patricroft at one time had a license to open at 6 in the morning to cater for the night shift at the adjoining Royal Ordnance Factory. I have to admit there was the odd occasion when we carried through an all night party there.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 04:19 PM

Be there a bigger bore than the beer bore?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 04:28 PM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 05:06 PM

The professor gets ever funnier. The last comment was from the same professor who started a whole thread about beer anecdotes. Wonderful, truly wonderful.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 05:49 PM

Yeah, there is a bigger bore. The pro-beer bore is massively outdone in the boredom stakes than the anti-queer bore.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 05:52 PM

outdone by

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 11:25 PM

Thus Robespierre came to power on the back of popular street violence.[18] Led by Robespierre, the National Convention, in an attempt to make their stance known to the world over, released a statement of French Foreign policy. The first point addressed stated,
"The National Convention declares, in the name of the French people, that it firmly intends to be terrible towards its enemies, generous towards its allies, and just towards its peoples."

The number of death sentences in Paris was 2,639, while the total number during the Terror in the whole of France (including Paris) was 16,594. The Jacobins were meticulous in maintaining a legal structure for the Terror so clear records exist for official death sentences. However, many more people were murdered without formal sentences proposed in a court of law.[18]
The Revolutionary Tribunal summarily condemned thousands of people to death by the guillotine, while mobs beat other victims to death. Sometimes people died for their political opinions or actions, but many for little reason beyond mere suspicion, or because some others had a stake in getting rid of them.[citation needed]
Among people who were condemned by the revolutionary tribunals, about 8% were aristocrats, 6% clergy, 14% middle class, and 72% were workers or peasants accused of hoarding, evading the draft, desertion, or rebellion.

Poets and artists are decent people. Only a fool would compare this piece of shit with Hamish Henderson.   philosopher..my arse!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 15 - 11:40 PM

I suppose in some ways Ghandi was the Josef Goebels to Albert Schweitzer's Adolf Hitler.

never mind - get on with abusing everyone:
murderer, communist, racist.....

I suppose you do realise you are talking about human beings like yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 03:40 AM

"Thus Robespierre came to power on the back of popular street violence"
No- he came to power on the 'back' of the appalling conditions suffered by the French people - he, like 'street violence' was the outcome of that poverty.
Pre-revolutionary Conditions in France
Like the Russian Revolution, people tend to ignore the causes of the events.
"Ghandi was the Josef Goebels to Albert Schweitzer's Adolf Hitler."
No again, they were opposites to each other Robespierre and Henderson were two sides of the same coin rolling in the same direction.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 03:54 AM

Why include communist in the same list as murderer and racist? Or David Cameron for that matter?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 04:22 AM

Another piece of information for the uninitiated, Hamish Henderson was not a revolutionary either.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 04:48 AM

ake seems to have broken bread with the man. i'd go with his instincts on the matter , rather than some writer who is clearly talking tripe.

Do try to keep up, Al. The only 'writer' mentioned is the one that is supposed to be supporting ake's case that Henderson was not particularly left wing. If he was not a communist then the ones talking tripe are Dick Gaughan, everyone else that knew him and Henderson himself, who all describe him as a communist. There is no need to be a member of a party to support their politics. Communist is not a term of abuse but a description of political leanings.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 05:09 AM

"Hamish Henderson was not a revolutionary either."
He held revolutionary ideas - ie - he believed society (not just Governments) needed changing.
Why do you indulge in these hit-'n-run tactics Ake?
Yo get your skittles knocked over - you leave them lying down and just put up another one.
Your bowling alley is getting very cluttered!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 05:34 AM

For the record --

"Hamish Scott Henderson, (11 November 1919 – 9 March 2002; Scottish Gaelic: Seamas MacEanraig (Seamas Mòr)) was a Scottish poet, songwriter, communist, soldier and intellectual." Wikipedia

I knew him slightly. I admired his achievements, but was not alone in finding him an exceptionally contentious person, touchy to a fault & constantly picking quarrels over imagined and unintentional slights. I particularly remember his shouting for an uninterrupted 15 minutes at Peter Bellamy, who had said to him of a resentful and pugnacious remark he had made backstage about having been deliberately neglected by the organisers of the Cambridge Festival in the early 1970s, "Isn't that a bit uncharitable, Hamish?" Mr Henderson stopped us on the way out at the end of the evening [Pete & Anthea were staying over as usual with Valerie & me in Cambridge], said to Pete, "Could I just have a quick word? - What do you mean by calling me uncharitable!", and launched into that denunciatory diatribe which Anthea & I listened to in astounded puzzlement. One of those experiences which live with me from that hour to this.

≈M≈

Sorry for this drift from topic of Mr Cameron, but it's the way the thread seems to have gone

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 05:35 AM

David Cameron believes society needs changing.
i could see you two joining him on the barricades

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 05:51 AM

??? :-S

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 06:02 AM

"David Cameron believes society needs changing. "
No he doesn't - he believes society should stay the same and fights any changes that threaten the status quo - don't they all
To quote the Duke Lamdedusa at the time of the Garibaldi uprisings"Things must change if they are going to remain the same"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 06:51 AM

'David Cameron sets out UK-wide changes 'to build better future'

BBC News Services

Theres something very similar in the way you two abuse people to official Conservative policy on immigrants, single mothers, disabled and other non people.

village idiots, speakers of claptrap, racist, homophobes...ring any bells?

you two should join up with the tories...they could use a talent for abuse such as yours.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 06:58 AM

Says the man who uses the term communist in the same list as murderer and racist? Tell you what, Al, look back through your thread and check who was the first person to abuse anyone. (Clue: You will not have to go much further than the title and first post) Let he who is without sin cast the first stone seems a good rule to apply in this instance.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 07:07 AM

'David Cameron sets out UK-wide changes 'to build better future'
Don't they all say that - from Hitler onward?
"racist, homophobes"
Don't know who you're referring to Al, but I've only ever referred to anybody as a racist or homophobe in response to people who have made racist or homophobic comments - plenty of examples on this forum.
Somethings appears to have seriously rattled your cage on this one.
Jim Carroll

A translation of Henderson's Freedom Come-All-Ye
Rough's the wind in the clear day's dawning
Blows the clouds head-oer-heel across the bay
But there's more than a rough wind blowing
Through the Great Glen of the world today
It's a thought that would make our vermin
All those rogues who strut and swagger without care
Take the road and seek other lodgings
With their vile schemes to sport and play

No more will our fine lads be commanded
to march to war at a braggarts call
Nor wee weans from pitheads and clachans
Mourn the ships sailing down the Broomielaw
Broken families in lands we've vanquished
Will curse "Scotland the Brave", nae mair, nae mair
Black and white to one another married
Will make the slums of their masters bare

So come all ye at home with freedom
Never heed those prophets of doom
In your house all the bairns of Adam
Will find bread, drink and painted rooms
When Maclean meets with friends in Springburn
All the rose and cherry trees will turn to bloom
And the black lad from Nyanga
Will break the powers of his masters doon.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 07:49 AM

We could settle on "socialist".

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 09:07 AM

"We could settle on "socialist"."
No problem with that, though the term has been abused enough for sol long to become meaningless.
I think I've read the claim recently that, "we're all socialists now" and the also that "employers who treat their workers decently and pay them a decent wage are practicing socialism" - it really is more complicated than that.
It really isn't that important anyway; Henderson was what he wrote and did - his allegiance to Scottish Marxist, John McLean in, 'Freedom Come-All Ye, puts him where he was..
I go along with Mike's description of him to a degree - he was somewhat eccentric and unpredictable.
I can't recall what subject he was asked to speak on at MacColl's 70th symposium, but he launched into a glorious talk on erotic and bawdy songs and declared that "love was what made us all human beings" which had the audience on edge (so to speak) - nothing to do with the advertised topic.
Like all great people, he was very much his own person.
MacColl used to tell the story of a concert he sang at in Edinburgh in the fifties - one of the songs was the Scots mouth Music piece 'Tail Toddle'
When he came off stage, he found a be-kilted Hamish being questioned by a diminutive American lady with a notebook.
"Can you explain 'what Tail Toddle' means, Mr Henderson".
Towering over the her, he said ponderously, "Weel madam, a tail is a woman's pudenda, and toddlin' is the movement, in and out, in and out" - demonstrating the motion vigourously with his hips, kilt swaying as he spoke.
The lady rapidly disappeared with her notebook and wasn't seen again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 09:09 AM

Someone who posts on here has been a regular at Sandy Bells for a long time. I guess they may know HH better. Is it Jack Campin?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 12:30 PM

no matter what the subject - lollypops, steam engines . kangaroos
if Ake says something - we get this shit from someone -you're homophobic, so your viewis of no account. i wouldn't even know his views on the subject, if i hadn't heard all this tripe

Joe Offer was in pieces after some of the crap you came out with about his deeply held religious beliefs.

i get called racist - and a cast of supporting players jump in to toady round you.

Small wonder you admire a bullying git like Robespierre.

you two don't know how to behave.

abusing David Cameron doesn't count. he has an entire newspaper industry slagging people off on his behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 01:00 PM

Well, as long as we know. It now seems to be Big Al who decides who it is OK to abuse or not.

BTW - I know nothing about Robespierre and the French Revolution so I have no idea WTF you are on about with that. I do know that anyone complaining of abuse on a thread they started to abuse someone else deserves to be called hypocritical. Or at least to be laughed at. Does the 'Big' bit in your handle lean heavily on a certain George Orwell character by any chance? :-)

While talking of how to behave, who brought up the subject of racism I wonder...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 01:07 PM

"and a cast of supporting players jump in to toady round you."
Do not implicate me in what others have to say - if I thought you were a racist, I would have no hesitation in saying so.
Nobody "toady's" around anybody - people agree with each other on both sides of the spectrum, but you have no grounds for saying they do so to "toady" around anybody
H hold somewhat unpopular and controversial views about many things and I have no hesitation in arguing the toss on them - often to the point of overstatement when I consider them important enough.
I have never attacked anybody's religious beliefs - never.
I have criticised the behaviour of the church - and still do.
Grow up Al - you really aren't doing yourself any good behaving the way you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 01:27 PM

This is like the Mad Hatters Tea party, or perhaps a childish playground squabble, any minute some idiot will say I am going to get my big brother, and the other one will say my brothers bigger than your brother , nya nya nya.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 01:44 PM

I think you are wrong Good Soldier.....Al is simply reacting to what is left of the pack of hyenas who have spent the last few years attacking anything posted by myself or Keith.
They also try to derail any serious discussion on subjects which they deem unsuitable for discussion, by posting off topic shit
Al made the "mistake" of reporting an incident he witnessed involving some Eastern European criminals.....he was immediately jumped on by a troll, one of the followers of Team Musket who called him a "racist" simply for telling the truth

Al and I have disagreed a few times over the years, but he is a straight decent guy and does not like being called a "racist" by trolls who are not fit to lick his boots.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 01:45 PM

Drift, in interests of accuracy: -- If you read Alice carefully, you will find that it was the March Hare's tea party, not the Hatter's. The chapter is just called 'A Mad Tea Party'; it is actually held in the March Hare's garden, where Alice had decided to go because she had seen hatters before, but not March hares, and as it was May she hoped the Hare wouldn't be as mad as he had been in March. People probably make this mistake as it was the Hatter who had the most to say.


≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 02:08 PM

This thread was created with the sole purpose of abusing someone. It has succeeded but whether that success was as intended is to be seen.

As to the nonsense above from ake, all I can say is that you will notice that he never backs up any of his slurs with examples but is very quick to complain when anyone makes unsubstantiated accusations against him. Oh, and complaining of being off topic while the majority of his posts have nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the thread. Tells us everything we need to know really.

Nice to see them getting so worked up while the rest of us enjoy a few beers and the odd comment about them though. Bit of light entertainment from the resident comedy team can be fun at times but they do tend to repeat the same jokes.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 02:58 PM

well, this is some mad tea party.mad and tedious and childish. my comments were not aimed at Al , but at the other two factions.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 04:04 PM

Simple solution if you find it tedious and childish, Dick. Surprised you have not thought of it :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 04:58 PM

Dave,I am trying to be polite.
your behaviour on this thread along with others, is childish and resembles the worst aspects of the school playground.
I have met both you and Keith in real life, and enjoyed the company of both of you, we all enjoy the same sort of music, this squabbling is pointless, neither of you are going to change the others opinions , you are wasting your time, soon we will all be dead, make the most of life.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 05:09 PM

Has it occurred to you that some people may actualy enjoy what you deem wasting time, Dick? I am sure you are well qualified in determining what is good and bad in the folk music arena but can you say the same of your skills in psychology? I suspect not but am always willing to be proved wrong. I am not interested in changing opinions either, just in putting the record straight. Thanks for the advice but if it is all the same to you, I chose not to take it.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 05:52 PM

people actually enjoy taking part in discussions that go nowhere? they enjoy slagging each other off? good grief.
I will leave you to it, and go and play music which is possibly why I am a much better concertina player than you.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 05:54 PM

"Has it occurred to you that some people may actualy enjoy what you deem wasting time, Dick?"........That, I think, is the problem Good Soldier!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 15 - 06:14 PM

look are we EVER going to talk about this bloody villain, Cameron?

you notice the ominous silence from Tory press. he has broken a major election promise on immigration. if a labour pm had done that, they'd be tearing the fucker to pieces.

this is a promise he made, and got elected on the strength of.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 02:50 AM

which is possibly why I am a much better concertina player than you

Nah, the reason for that is that I don't want to be a concertina player. I would rather get very well paid in a job I enjoy and then pay for people like yourself to entertain me :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 04:27 AM

you notice the ominous silence from Tory press. he has broken a major election promise on immigration.

That pledge was made in the 2010 campaign, which did not achieve a Tory majority.
The Telegraph and the Mail have both excoriated them for their failure on it.
It is the left wing press that has remained comparatively silent about it.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 05:10 AM

The pledge was renewed by Theresa May, Keith, in the last parliament. We all know she lied about it in trying to back down from it, but the target was the same as Cameron's 2010 pledge. Let's tell it like it is for once, shall we, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 06:13 AM

There is no "left wing" press any more.
There's an openly Tory-supportive press - The Telegraph - The Time.
There's the Tory supportive gutter press, The Mail, and The Sun.
There's the rest o the tabloids, which hardly deal in news at all, but tend to go along with the right.
And there are a couple of well written and researched and, on the whole middle-of-the-road, fair minded newspapers, The Guardian and The Independent.
Not sure whether The Morning Star Still publishes, but if it does, its readership is insignificantly small.
Who is this "left wing press"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:01 AM

Perhaps some of the weeklies, Jim? New Statesman, Tribune, &c. But agree that the left is not much represented in the dailies. The Sun was supposed originally to have been a successor to the old Daily Herald; but, blimey, I mean...!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:46 AM

I don't know because I no longer read newspapers, apart from the odd article of interest online, but is the Daily Mirror still left of centre?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:51 AM

I was referring to the dailies Mike, and I think Keith was.
I'd forgotten about the Sun/Herald link - blimey indeed!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 09:05 AM

Steve,
The pledge was renewed by Theresa May, Keith, in the last parliament.

Wrong Steve.
Guardian November 2014.
"Theresa May has issued the clearest declaration by the government yet that it will fail to deliver David Cameron's "no ifs, no buts" pledge to reduce net migration to the tens of thousands by the general election next year."

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 09:09 AM

Jim,
Not sure whether The Morning Star Still publishes, but if it does, its readership is insignificantly small.

Why is that Jim, if not because no-one wants to read far left agitprop?
Dave, The Mirror supports the Labour Party in its editorial policy.
I think we all know that the Guardian is a left leaning publication.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 11:28 AM

the point is neither left wing nor right. it was just plain villainy!

the real loser in Cameron's lies was UKIP. The statements were made to cut the ground from under their feet. the points they made about Europe - which were pertinent never got discussed. thus shitting on the right wing

the pledges were totally cynically made also to top up our pool of minimum wage workforce. thus shitting on the left wing.

I don't regard this thread as blind abuse. David Cameron is a big sod, who shits on everybody, except his rich banker mates!

Josh White said it so much sweeter than I can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HfFTFqDvSg

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 12:37 PM

The Morning Star still publishes, I even bought one recently in W H Smith, OR AKA W H Smug

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 01:52 PM

I am pretty sure that everyone has their redeeming points. Well, maybe apart from Irritable Duncan Syndrome and one or two others. Even Mr Cameron. It is the policies of the present administration that really stink. Blame Cameron for that if you like but even without him they wold have pressed ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 07:49 PM

"Why is that Jim, if not because no-one wants to read far left agitprop?"
Yo talk about what no-one wants!
The majority of people are not interested in politics of any sort - they don't vote, and we are led by a minority of those who do.
Parliamentary democracy has been exposed as the sham it always was.
Politics has become a career and politicians are regarded with mistrust and contempt.
That appears to be what people want.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:05 PM

i do feel that for some reason the politicians of ability and integrity never seem to attain highest office , or at any rate get treated very badly. Micheal Hesseltine and John MacGregor being good cases in point in the Maggie era. she just wanted yes men around her.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:05 PM

i do feel that for some reason the politicians of ability and integrity never seem to attain highest office , or at any rate get treated very badly. Micheal Hesseltine and John MacGregor being good cases in point in the Maggie era. she just wanted yes men around her.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 08:59 PM

Hell of an echo in here! 😜😎

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 15 - 03:55 PM

Were any conclusions reached?

Was anyone's mind changed?

Did the thread serve its intended purpose?

Or did it just create bad feeling, animosity and high blood pressure for some and a source of amusement for others?

Just asking...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 01:34 AM

well it revealed to me David is really quite popular.

i think he's turd, but that viewpoint doesn't have much popular support.

i think , you and me, Dave will never get on.

i used to wonder why most of the well known folksingers in England give mudcat a wide berth. it suddenly clicked the other day.

hundreds of people on the English folkscene must know me ......millions know my hit record in Germany.
now its on the internet that i'm a racist. i suppose they see the temperature of the water and think...who needs that?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:24 AM

Glad it was of some use then, Al. There is nothing on the internet that says you are a racist though apart from you repeating it. No-one has access to the thread in question because it has been deleted so what is there left? Apart from your wounded pride and you bringing it up at every opportunity? Both you and I know what happened but our recollections are at odds. Neither of us can provide any evidence of what actually happened so it is mere hearsay. Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 06:28 AM

seeing as it was my reputation that was sullied, i probably have thought about it a damn sight more than your gang of cronies on mudcat.

and felt the insult.

i've done maybe eight bookings in the last three weeks under my own name - Big Al Whittle. people do internet searches on me. people i don't know who are thinking of booking me. there is a danger they will come across your slurs.

when you abuse Ake - call him the village idiot, a homophobe, god knows what else..

well ake's not doing gigs as far as i know, but its not very nice.

i obviously can't make you see that saying foul hurtful things is wrong. but it can damage people. and it sure as hell damages mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 07:03 AM

1. I have no 'gang of cronies'
2. There is no danger that anyone will come across 'my slurs' because there are none. Do a google search if you don't believe me.
3. The village idiot tag is in answer to his constantly calling me a troll and a liar. I see nothing from you about that.
4. He says that homosexuals are perverted, licentious and should not be allowed to marry. What is that but homophobia and what does it say of you in supporting him?

Need I go on?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 08:44 AM

"your gang of cronies"
Same as Dave said.
Cronyism is for politicians and you do no good to accuse people of being what they are not.
Don't know about 'village idiot' but Ake is well known for taking a regular pop at gays, from'Gay Plague', up - just because everybody says it doesn't mean it isn't true!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 10:09 AM

You are wrong Jim, Dave the T and a couple more gleefully joined Team Musket in personal abuse and Al was labelled a racist for mentioning an incident he had witnessed.....he never at any time expressed fear or dislike of Eastern Europeans in general. Quite the contrary, he has always been open minded on any subject, we have often disagreed but without rancour. They are a bunch of cronies, or would like to be!    I credit you with a little more sense than to get involved with TM, but sometimes you print without thinking.
I do not "take a pop" at homosexuals. I oppose homosexual "marriage" as millions of others do and I try to give my reasons and sources for doing so....that is not "taking a pop" homosexuals can do what they like within their own group but to call it marriage and legislate for it is a re-definition.
I have never mentioned "gay plague", you made that up.
I have quoted official health figures which indicate an epidemic of sexually transmitted disease within the MSM group.
You may not think it is an epidemic, but the health agencies certainly do.    Latest figure for 2013 81% of all new hiv infections in the US amongst MSM.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 11:00 AM

"Dave the T and a couple more gleefully joined Team Musket in personal abuse"
Many people have been guilty of personal abuse of one sort or another - one of the problems is that they only seem to recognise it when they are the target.
Some people's behaviour has become intolerable and obsessive, which has, I have little doubt, given rise to personal abuse.
It really isn't a chicken and egg situation - discussion, however heated, seldom starts abusively, so if everybody, looked to their own behaviour instead of eternally complaining others' it might help.
Gleefully reveling in sexually transmitted diseases only confirms your position - Mrs Whitehouse would have been proud of you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 11:15 AM

ake - Three simple questions

1. Do you believe homosexuals are perverts?
2. Do you believe homosexuals are more promiscuous that others?
3. Do you believe that homosexuals should be afforded the same rights as others?

I will not hold my breath waiting for a straight answer.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 11:23 AM

Well, if that's your idea of 'gleeful revelling', Jim, then I feel bound to say that I don't think you'd recognise a gleeful revel if it crep' up behind you and bit you on the bum. Why, if really pushed even a miserable old sod like me could revel a bit more gleefully than just reproducing a few undisputed statistics*, which is all Ake has been doing. But as they are statistics that unhappily do not confirm the prejudices of your old Mind·made·up·no·facts·please Brigade, you somehow purport to see them as gleeful revelling, and fall back on the weary old copout of the Shoot·The·Messenger routine.!

Best
≈M≈

≤small>*none of you lot over there has made any coherent attempt to dispute them anyhow that anyone can see

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 11:56 AM

2. Do you believe homosexuals are more promiscuous that others?

Having multiple concurrent partners is the accepted reason for the very high rates of all STIs among MSM.
There is no prejudice in stating that.
You will find it referred to in the gay media and web sites.
I remember linking to an NAT page about exactly that.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 12:09 PM

"Both the number and very probably the
concurrency of sexual partners have a
significant impact on HIV transmission
amongst MSM in the UK.
Reducing the number and
concurrency of sexual partnerships
amongst MSM is an appropriate
objective, both ethically and
epidemiologically, for HIV prevention
frameworks in the UK nations. "
http://www.nat.org.uk/media/Files/Publications/July-2010-Parternship-Patterns-and-HIV-Prevention.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 12:33 PM

So, Keith, Do you believe homosexuals are more promiscuous that others? And that was only one of three questions.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 01:01 PM

I know that MSM folk are, because studies have confirmed it is a fact and I have seen it acknowledged on gay sites.
It is the reason that they are at such high risk.

From my linked page,

"Recent results from the Gay Men's
Sex Survey (GMSS) conducted
by Sigma Research suggests the
correlation between high numbers of
sexual partners and infection with STIs
including HIV – 'Numbers of sexual
partners was strongly associated to
HIV testing history, HIV diagnosis
and diagnosis of other STIs'. 3
For
example, 20.9% of those with 30 more
partners in the last year were HIV
positive (i.e had received a positive
diagnosis) compared with 6.6% of those
with between two and four partners in
the last year. Gonorrhoea was reported
in the last year for 16.1% of HIV positive
men with 30 or more partners and 6.6%
of men not tested positive with 30 or
more partners, compared with 4.9%
and 1.2% respectively for those with ..."

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 01:19 PM

"Well, if that's your idea of 'gleeful revelling', J"
What is it then Mike - a warning about being gay, a warning to steer clear of gays - there's very little sign of it being sympathy.
Along with the other pronouncements about homosexuality being unnatural and same sex marriage being a threat to the traditional family and giving unfair rights to gays over heterosexuals - it's gleeful revelling of the type indulged in by proselytizing evangelicals.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 02:35 PM

So, Keith, Do you believe homosexuals are more promiscuous that others?

No.
Gay women are actually less promiscuous that straight women.
Gay men however, are more promiscuous than straight men.
Quite a lot more.

" Homosexual men are famously promiscuous, a fact that became well-known with onset of AIDs, when studies of gay men who were HIV positive revealed average numbers of partners in the hundreds (and even though gay men who were HIV negative had much lower numbers, the average for them was still dramatically higher than the average numbers for heterosexual men). Lesbians might have been expected to be more promiscuous than heterosexual women, since they had no pregnancy to fear, and on the classic theories, would have been inclined to play out a "male sex role." But research by Michael Bailey and David Schmitt found that lesbians are inclined toward even less promiscuous lives than heterosexual women."

Musket may wish to report the author to the police.
All his details can be found by clicking on his name here,
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-murder-and-the-meaning-life/201006/homosexuality-queer-problem

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 02:53 PM

I would think the title of the article would tell you all you needed to know about the author and his viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:21 PM

you two totally miss the point

we weren't talking about race when i got called a racist.

this thread isn't about gay relationships - but here's Ake being called a homophobe.

he holds the views he holds - which aren't unusual views for men of his age , who grew up in an illiberal era when homosexuality was illegal. an era when children were encouraged to look upon being gay with deep revulsion. you're asking him to re-program a brain - which given the strictures of the Scottish church would be next to impossible.

his views get dragged in an abusive manner into virtually every discussion on the forum.

you're not doing the same to me without a struggle.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:23 PM

Rag,
Douglas T. Kenrick, Ph.D., is the Professor of Social Psychology at Arizona State University, and is author of over 200 scientific articles, books, and book chapters, the majority applying evolutionary ideas to human behavior and thought processes. At a theoretical level, his work integrates three great syntheses of the last few decades: evolutionary psychology, cognitive science, and dynamical systems theory. Much of that work has been funded by NIMH and NSF and has been reported in journals including Behavioral and Brain Sciences, Psychological Review, Perspectives on Psychological Science, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, and Evolution and Human Behavior. Kenrick has edited several books on evolutionary psychology, contributed chapters to the Handbook of Social Psychology and the Handbook of Evolutionary Psychology, and been an author of two multi-edition textbooks (Social Psychology: Goals in Interaction, with Steve Neuberg and Bob Cialdini, is now in its 5th edition).

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:28 PM

Professor I am able to read, I am also able to cut and paste. I am also able to perceive from an article the point that an author is trying to make.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:30 PM

And I agree with Al.
The behaviour of DtG, Musket, Rag, Steve and Jim in relation to another member of this forum has been execrable.
Al should never have been labelled as he was, and nor should any other member.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 03:49 PM

How was Al 'labelled' and for what, Keith? You are very fond of asking for chapter and verse. Provide us evidence of what actually happened and your point may become credible. Until you do it is my word against Al's and we have already stated our cases. Feel free to believe one or the other but unless you have any facts you are merely speculating.

The behaviour of DtG, Musket, Rag, Steve and Jim in relation to another member of this forum has been execrable.

Facts, Keith. Facts are all that matter in any such debate, not opinions. Give us verifiable facts rather than unsubstantiated allegations.

Again, I will not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 04:49 PM

maybe based on familiarity with your techniques of villification
you've had a good run with it.

did you really expect it to work for ever.

you know the one about fooling some of the people all the time...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 04:53 PM

I think you may have fooled more than one or two in your day, Al. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 04:53 PM

" DtG, Musket, Rag, Steve and Jim in relation to another member of this forum "
Do not make snide referenbces to me without proof
I have never accused anybody of anything unjustly - you, above anybody should know this.
Back up your snide statement
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 05:47 PM

"I have never accused anybody of anything unjustly - you, above anybody should know this.
Back up your snide statement"

Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll is the man that accused me of being a talentless moron.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 05:53 PM

" DtG, Musket, Rag, Steve and Jim in relation to another member of this forum "

Kindly apprise me of the name of the person I'm supposed to have treated so badly and tell me which posts of mine contained the offending material. Until then, I don't know what you're talking about, and I regard these vague and unfocussed allegations as scurrilous and mischievous. Hardly surprising, of course, considering the source.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 06:06 PM

Jim...."I have never accused anybody of anything unjustly "....yes you have, you have accused me of homophobia.

I oppose homosexual "marriage" not homosexuals or homosexuality.
To do so would be rank stupidity homosexuality is a fact of life as is addiction, I feel sorrow for those who have felt the need to travel that path, not fear or hatred.
In saying that, I believe the legislation to redefine marriage to accommodate a sexual minority with such associated health problems, is bad for the future of society.

I believe that increased testing and contact tracing within the demographic is required urgently, and the issue of "open" relationships within MSM subjected to scientific study.
This will save many lives and cut down the number of male homosexuals serving out a life sentence on retroviral medication.

Does your twisted ideology blind you so much that you believe that to be homophobia?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 15 - 07:00 PM

You say you oppose homosexual "marriage". You equate homosexuality with addiction. You regard homosexuals as having the need to "travel a path". You are homophobia personified. You are disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 01:35 AM

Steve   -just who the hell are you to tell someone how they should feel?

I have explained at tedious length how and why my Father's generation felt that way about homosexuality. It was actually my father's job as a copper in Boston to lurk about the bogs in the park arresting the poor sods who were cottaging. I've seen lecture notes supplied to him by the leading forensic scientists of the day explaining how anal intercourse could kill you.

you are not going to wipe out those sort of cultural weirdnesses in a generation just by wishing it so.

you lose all the moral highground when you tell another human being that their very existence is disgusting.

I can't help feeling that you are just jumping on the bandwagon abusing an old man.

You are too doctrinaire PC to tackle the homophobic attitude coming out of some of the mosques. I used to find those attitudes in the essays of kids that I taught. And of course - you had to tread very carefully not to upset their cultural values.

You just give an old man a good kicking cos all the other mindless types are piling in. I bet Ake's kids don't feel the same way he does - because they have grown up in a more liberal society.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 02:45 AM

I see there are still no answers to my questions, ake. Your silence speaks volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:25 AM

You are too doctrinaire PC to tackle the homophobic attitude coming out of some of the mosques.

The homophobic (and sexist) attitude coming out of some mosques is terrible. There are some Imams who are firmly in the 11th century and they need to come into the 21st.

There, will that do?

There are also many Imams and practising Muslims (of which I work with many) who ARE firmly in the 21st century and are as tolerant as anyone. More tolerant than some.

The issue is not about PC doctrine or age old attitudes. It is about stereotyping. When you stereotype any group you de-humanise them. It is a practice that I grew up with and I often have to force myself to break our of old habits, but I do and it is worth the effort. Branding whole swathes of society as this, that or the other because of their race, culture, creed or sexual preference is simply wrong. People are individuals and we should look at their individual merits and faults, not brand them because of how or where they were born.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:44 AM

"I oppose homosexual "marriage" not homosexuals or homosexuality."
You have persistently depicted homosexuality as unnatural and have, at least once, described the practice as spreading the Gay plague
Describing same sex marriage as an attack on (your particular) family values is homophobic - and none of your business.
You have suggested that homosexuality tends towards pedophilia
The world has moved on - homosexuality is now fully accepted as a natural act.
Comparing homosexuality to addiction - (a self-imposed act) is homophobic - it is the way some people are, not what what they take a decision on - that is a long-established fact and until you get your head around it, you will remain homophobic.
The idea that homosexuality is a curable disease (like addiction) is a myth peddles by religious nutters.
Your patronising "sorrow for those who have felt the need to travel that path" is homophobic in the extreme
Homosexuality is a natural state for some people - like being left-handed.
Every posting you make on homosexuality serves only to make our point.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:48 AM

Branding people because of creed is very common on this forum. I have read threads here that have practically accused people of child abuse for raising children within a religious tradition. Absolute bigotry widely tolerated by many here.
People are wrongly accused of racism where none is present.the accusation of racism against Al W was cruel and uncalled for, one of the nastiest things I have seen on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:04 AM

" I have read threads here that have practically accused people of child abuse for raising children within a religious tradition. "
Nobody here has ever suggested such a thing, and in the years I have been a member, I have never known anybody to have suggested it
Can you give an example?
People are accused of racism on the basis of what they write (I can't remember Al's case, but I do know he implicated me in that accusation, which was uncalled for).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:13 AM

HiLo

the accusation of racism against Al W was cruel and uncalled for

Please provide facts for your claim. If you can link to the actual thread so everyone can see what happened it would resolve a few issues. As with the others, I will not hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:15 AM

Al made no racist comment and was hounded on this forum.
I have no desire to set myself up as a target for the same simply because my beliefs and observations differ from yours!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:16 AM

well come to that Dave - i see no reply to my points asking for toleration being shown to an old bloke.

the viewpoints Ake takes on this subject are similar to those voiced by the generation that used to say the only good German is a dead one...

you don't hear that too often nowadays.

theres just no need for this vicious self righteous bullshit'

unless of course you're a gang of vicious self righteous bullshitters, which quite frankly i am beginning to suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:43 AM

I recall what I read and it was very nasty. If you doubt my memory , fine. I too would be glad to see the thread where it took place. If you could produce parts of here that would disprove my recollection, I would be glad to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:43 AM

I fear Al that you are making excuses for intolerance. I too was born into a society (and religion) that held no truck for homosexuals. However, as I grew older I realised that I was at fault for holding those views and there was no reason at all to criticise other people for being different from myself. Be that difference, sexual orientation, race or colour. Homophobia is not acceptable. FULL STOP.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:44 AM

HiLo

You have still provided no evidence of what actually happened. Until that stage your statements are unsubstantiated and will be ignored.

Al

I will, and have, shown toleration for anyone anything apart from the wilful demonisation of whole sections of society because of the group they belong to. There is just no need for it in this day and age. Even if you were, like me, brought up with it.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:49 AM

Dave, the thread where you unjustly applied that label to Al may have gone, but many will have seen it and no-one who did will forget it.
If you deny it now, you are just revealing more of your real self.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 05:56 AM

The disappearance of the thread seems to be working in your favour Dave. I stand by my memory Of it because I was appalled by it. Ignore it if you wish , makes. O odds to me .

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 06:09 AM

I am not denying anything, Keith. Just saying that my recollection is that it was not unjust.

In the words of HiLo

If you doubt my memory , fine. I too would be glad to see the thread where it took place. If you could produce parts of here that would disprove my recollection, I would be glad to read it.

I am quite willing to let the moderators decide if they want to bring it back on line and if my memory proves to be faulty I would be happy to apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 06:17 AM

No odds to me, either HiLo. I am equally certain that whatever was said was justified.

I was quite happy to let whatever happened lie but please bear in mind that it was Al that has brought it up on multiple threads. It is Al that is concerned about his reputation and yet, even though there is no longer any trace of what happened, he keeps bringing it up for all to see. The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 07:14 AM

Blimey, Al. I don't think I've ever uttered a word against you, now I get this. I'm in a gang of some kind, a conspiracy. I'm kicking an old man when he's down. Wow.

Al, millions of people still share his views. Gradually, they are dying out, the world is changing and homophobia will become unacceptable, eventually laughable. But most of those millions keep those views to themselves. Akenaton does not only stick his head above the parapet, he stands on the parapet to tell the world. And his views stink. What Jim said. You seem to be telling us that here, on a public forum, he should be able to get away with saying whatever he wants while the rest of us must shut up. Well I don't agree with that, because leaving his disgusting attitudes unchallenged would make the whole place look like it's declared open season on gay people. That cannot be right. He tells it like he thinks it is, so we respond in kind. That's all. And I don't care how bloody old he is. I don't even know unless he tells me. Just don't ask me to silently tolerate the intemperate remarks of a supremely intolerant man. It's a discussion forum, not a platform for untrammelled hate speech.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 07:26 AM

right . there is no excuse for intolerance. but theres an explanation. why do you think all these old fuckers read the daily mail. for a challenging read...informed debate?

i could understand you being outraged by the educated people writing for the mail, who pander to these opinions. but Ake....well he's like the old bloke you hear muttering behind you in the queue at Tesco. leave him alone!

and this....well i never did! stuff. you CAN'T be as outraged as you pretend.

as i've said before - its just bad behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 07:29 AM

Branding people because of creed is very common on this forum. I have read threads here that have practically accused people of child abuse for raising children within a religious tradition. Absolute bigotry widely tolerated by many here.

I have not read a single comment that brands people because of their creed. I have seen plenty of comments that condemn people for assuming that their creed is the one and only truth to the extent of ignoring evidence and unjustly refuting the work of scientists, and I have have seen plenty of comments that brand people for forcing their faith on others, children in particular, seeking to indoctrinate them with what is evidence-free myth peddled as truth. There is a difference, and you'd do well to make the distinction. I've made plenty of the latter type of comments myself. I have also said, countless times, that your faith is your business and you should be respected for it, as long as you keep it to yourself and don't have aspirations to make it anybody else's business. Including your kids'. The job of grown-ups is to give children the skills and the hunger to seek knowledge, not to tell them that things that can't be substantiated are true and needn't be questioned, and sign them up to your particular faith club.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 07:31 AM

He doesn't mutter at the back of the queue, Al. He stands on a soapbox in the car park.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 07:37 AM

"The disappearance of the thread seems to be working in your favour"
The disappearance of threads is working in the favour of anybody who is making claims that need substantiation, such as yours on people linking belief with paedophilia - I would state categorically that it has never happened while I have been a member otherwise I would have objected - while I am an atheist, many of my family are not.
This idea of "gangs" needs knocking on the head
It seems that the majority of people who take part in these arguments are reasonably tolerant and humane in their arguments - there are refreshingly, very few racists and bigots, but there are a few (you could count them on one hand)
When they express their obnoxious, and on occasion, illegal views, it produces anger - natural enough.
That is not being a member of "a gang" - it is people who agree with each other agreeing.
The newest thing is accusing people of expressing views to win support and foster admiration - if that takes on, we will have no basis for continuing these discussion - this section of the forum will have no purpose.
We should not even be having this "you said - no I didn't" discussion here - it has nothing whatever to do with the subject and it's depriving those who have something to say on the OP from having there say.
Can I suggest we put a stop to our undemocratic behaviour and take this up elsewhere - maybe pistols at dawn somewhere.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 07:45 AM

Many people think that marriage is a man/woman thing, as it always has been.
It is a valid opinion and widely held. A large minority.

No-one should be labelled as a homophobe or a bigot for that. It was the status quo within our lifetimes.

Why not just challenge those views and argue against them?
It is because you can't do that, that you all resort to abusive labelling and name calling instead.

And you tell yourselves and each other that it is something noble that you do.
It is not.
It is inadequacy.
He can beat you every time in debate, so you run from it, streaming nasty words over your shoulders as you go.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 07:46 AM

but Ake....well he's like the old bloke you hear muttering behind you in the queue at Tesco. leave him alone!

Crikey! That is a bit of a turnaround. You have gone from castigating me for saying he is the village idiot to describing him as a village idiot that should be ignored. I am all for people muttering behind me in the queue but when they start to bang into the back of my knees with their trolley, it's about time to say something.

As to being outraged. Well, I'm not. There is enough real stuff going on for me to spare any outrage for people who I do not know or care about on an insignificant internet forum. I just do not like to see stereotypical abuse go unchallenged. Abuse me? I don't care. Abuse Ake? Fine. Abuse a group of people because of how they were born? No way!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 07:54 AM

There was only one question about rights amongst my three, Keith. Neither that nor the other two have had a response from ake. Let us narrow it down to one to make it easier.

Do you, ake, believe that homosexuals are perverts? Yes or No.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 08:06 AM

Dave, I am very happy for you that life is good for you just now.
Ake is living through a long standing and ongoing personal tragedy.
It amazes me that he manages to join in debate here at all, and his treatment when he comes here saddens me.

He may well have a different definition to you of what "pervert" means.
Would you remain on good and friendly terms with someone who was a pervert by your definition?

We know that Ake is on such terms with some gay men and couples, so I would say he does not regard them as perverts by your definition.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 08:15 AM

"Linking belief with paedophilia", My god Jim are you barking mad. How in hell did you make that leap. I said nor intended no such thing. It is that kind of absurd reasoning that makes so many of these threads unpleasant. How you have arrived at that conclusion is beyond me. But you are a scary man.
    Steve, I disagree with your take on belief and the raising of children. I was brought up in a very orthodox religious home, the most heated debates were held round our kitchen table. We were encouraged to question everything and to take nothing for granted. I do not feel that I have been indoctrinated, but rather enriched by that experience.
    You do make some rather sweeping assumptions about how people of faith , or raised in religious homes are brought up.
    There are millions of intellectually enlightened people of all faiths, don"t confuse us with nutters and bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 08:22 AM

I haven't valled anybody an idiot. the generation that hold all those views are the generation that fought for our freedoms and created a national health service etc. they're not idiots.

its just that time and the country has moved on. maybe not at the breakneck speed in some parts of the country as others.

what is the basis of your need for abuse?

You say the evidence is gone despite everybody remeembering it in graphic detail. if this was a court case - there would be enough witnesses to convict.

Jim says its not a gang activity - although you all seem to stand in a ring. that's what it feels like to be on the receiving end.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 08:30 AM

Keith, I simply would not call anyone I was on "good and friendly terms" with a pervert. It is not in my nature. I would not be friendly to someone to their face and then demonise them behind their backs to other people.

Al,

if this was a court case - there would be enough witnesses to convict.

Nonsense. It is not a court case. If it was there would be an equal number of witnesses to say that whatever was said was justified. It is all a matter of opinion. End of story.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 08:57 AM

Dave,
Keith, I simply would not call anyone I was on "good and friendly terms" with a pervert.

Very sneaky and underhand of you to reverse the case.
As you well know, what I put to you was,

"Would you remain on good and friendly terms with someone who was a pervert by your definition?"

Would you?
Of course not, and nor would Ake.

His statements about promiscuity and infection rates are factual.
He does not denigrate anyone for being gay.
Leave him alone.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 08:58 AM

"How in hell did you make that leap."
You said-
"I have read threads here that have practically accused people of child abuse for raising children within a religious tradition."
Re-looking at it, I realise that your statement is open to interpretation - if I have made the wrong one - my apologies - there has been a great deal of discussion on clerical child abuse on this forum.
Nope - I am not "scary" in the slightest - quite shy and docile actually
" You do make some rather sweeping assumptions about how people of faith , or raised in religious homes are brought up."
I seldom, if ever "make assumptions, sweeping or otherwise, on how such people are brought up - my family are virtually all of a Roman Catholic background and I am well aware of the influence on their bringing up.
Had my father not been excommunicated for fighting on the "wrong side" in The Spanish Civil War, I would quite likely have been brought up a Catholic, as were my parents, grandparents, nepewss, neices cousins, uncles, aunts......
We now live in Catholic Ireland and most of our friends and neighbours are practicing Catholics.
In a country where the 96 percent of the primary schools are run by the Church - the next scandal to hit the fan is that while around 30 percent of the marriages here are civil ceremonies, many schools are demanding baptismal certificates before they will accept children as pupils.
My argument has never been with religion, whic is a personal choice, but with the behaviour of the church - on many issues.
"Jim says its not a gang activity"
It isn't, and to be accused of such is as insulting as anything that has been said about you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 09:05 AM

The sweeping assumptions bit was not aimed at you Jim, but at Steve. You certainly have made the wrong assumption Jim, shall we let it go at that, yes.
Also, I have never accused anyone of so called "gang" activity.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 09:07 AM

One Musket goes on holiday, and all of them fall silent.
Funny that.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 09:25 AM

Very sneaky and underhand of you to reverse the case.
As you well know, what I put to you was,

"Would you remain on good and friendly terms with someone who was a pervert by your definition?"

Nothing sneaky or underhand at all. The situation would never arise. I simply would never knowingly be on friendly or good terms with someone I knew to be a pervert. I have no idea whether ake calls his gay 'friends' perverts to their face. If he does and they are still on good and friendly terms with him. they are far more tolerant that many on here.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 09:57 AM

"Also, I have never accused anyone of so called "gang" activity."
No you haven't - my comment was aimed at Al.
"One Musket goes on holiday, and all of them fall silent."
For somebody who has actually been warned by a forum fairy for posting with a deliberately faked identity to feign support for your otherwise unsupported argument, you are milking this one somewhat dry - funny that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 10:23 AM

This gang thing. Or should I call it a team thing or a you-people thing. I have never met any of the gang. The only person I've privately communicated with in the gang is Dave, only then in matters unrelated to anything discussed here (we happen to come from the same part of the world, that's all). So just do yourselves a favour, conspiracy theorists. Channel your energies elsewhere and drop the neurotics.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 10:38 AM

I should like my accuser to apprise me of the sweeping assumptions I'm supposed to have made. My post was full of caveats along the lines of as-long-as. Like Jim, I know exactly how Catholics were often raised, possibly, probably, still are. I know how Muslims are often raised (I taught in Walthamstow for six years in in a school that was 40% Muslim). I know that there are people of both faiths who teach their children to be open-minded and ultimately, to be free if they so choose. My post made it clear that that's what I think. It is perfectly possible to be both a person of faith and fair-minded, despite the delusion. I also know that there are many of both faiths who tell their children that to demur is to risk social exclusion, ostracism, death or certain hell fire. Just because you disagree with me doesn't entitle you to hurl offensive remarks around about sweeping assumptions. Not that I'm capable of being offended anyway. Or enraged, for the record.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 10:52 AM

I simply would never knowingly be on friendly or good terms with someone I knew to be a pervert.

Of course you would not.
Nor would anyone including Ake, and Ake is on good and friendly terms with folk he knows to be gay.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 11:03 AM

It is not an offensive remark. It is a critical evaluation of your posts on this subject , how I raise and educate my children is frankly none of your concern and it is presumptuous of you to think it is . I know you can"t be offended, it is glaringly obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 11:27 AM

i take it all the abuse gang agrees on that point. there isn't a gang. the point is,,,you act as a gang. thats what it feels like. and its not nice.

what is it Paul Simon says....a loose affiliation, maybe.

i bet Ake feels like he's been set upon by a gang.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 11:39 AM

A simple solution Al. He merely stops writing his bile on a public forum.

We cannot change the way he thinks, however I do not consider that it is acceptable to continuously reguritate such bitter, ill considered claptrap without reaping the consequences of the same.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 12:15 PM

So, are we agreed that David Camermoron is execrable?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 12:18 PM

"So, are we agreed that David Camermoron is execrable?"
Absolutely - excremental even.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 12:34 PM

A simple solution Al. He merely stops writing his bile on a public forum.

What bile Rag?
Like many, he disagrees with SS marriage and says so.
Nothing wrong with that.
His statements about promiscuity and infection rates are factual.
He does not denigrate anyone for being gay.
You should all get off his back.

Challenge his views by all means, if you can, but stop the abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 12:34 PM

"It is a critical evaluation of your posts on this subject"

Well it isn't a very good one.

"how I raise and educate my children is frankly none of your concern and it is presumptuous of you to think it is"

I have never concerned myself with the way you raise and educate your children as I don't know you from Adam. You're the one making it personal. I was speaking about people in general, not you or anyone else in particular.

I would just say (speaking in general again) that telling one's children that there is a God, making them pray and sing hymns in church and sit under a crucifix in a faith school has nothing to do with education and everything to do with indoctrination. But I'm sure you personally wouldn't dream of doing any of those things. Of course, that could be a rather sweeping statement, but sweeping statements that go with your own flow are probably OK, I assume.

"I know you can"t be offended, it is glaringly obvious."

I recommend the approach. Getting upset on an internet forum is the next worst thing to insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 12:36 PM

posting with a deliberately faked identity to feign support for your otherwise unsupported argument,

Not what I did Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 12:46 PM

You are being disingenuous, Keith. His remarks on gay people, and the way he expresses his opinions on gay marriage, are ill-considered, ill-informed and biased against them. They are exactly the attitudes that have militated against equality for and the acceptance of gay people for decades. That isn't very nice, but that is not his concern. That much is as plain as the nose on your face. He somehow manages to work them into threads on unrelated tropics. He clearly has a mission to diss homosexuality in general. It's his obsession, the bee in his bonnet. It's OK to have a bee in one's bonnet but it's not OK express your uninformed views in ways which hurt or offend innocent minorities.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 01:17 PM

I am not upset, I am not offended, I am amazed , . Well, no, amazed is the wrong word. But we should agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome on his new smartphone
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 01:26 PM

"Of course you would not.
Nor wound anyone including Ake, and Ake is on good and friendly terms with folk he knows to be gay."

How do I know that they are on good terms with him, Keith? Do they know he calls them promiscuous perverts? I have every sympathy for anyone suffering a personal tragedy but what does it have to do with this discussion? There seems to be a lot of smokescreens going up here.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 01:29 PM

It is usually others who rake up the issue Steve.

Like many, he disagrees with SS marriage and says so.
There is nothing wrong with doing that.
His statements about promiscuity and infection rates are factual.
He does not denigrate anyone for being gay.
You should all get off his back.

Challenge his views by all means, if you can, but stop the abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 01:32 PM

Dave, he says he is on good terms with gay folk.
Why would he claim to be on good terms with perverts?
He would not.
He does not denigrate anyone for being gay.
Stop persecuting the man.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 01:36 PM

"Not what I did Jim."
Yest it is Keith - it's exactly what you did and what you were reprimanded for.
You made some excuse about it being to "out" a troll" but it's what you became - a troll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 01:37 PM

astonishing volte face by Cameron on immigrants.

one picture....

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 01:41 PM

Shows the power of the printed media. Unfortunately, it shouldn't have been necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 02:08 PM

No-one is persecuting anybody. It's an internet forum, not real life. The whole thing is in his own hands: he avoids posting nonsense about gay people, he stops being criticised. You appear to be so much on his side, the homophobic side, that you would like us all to give him free rein whilst remaining silent. Won't happen, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 02:09 PM

There's a picture on Facebook of a tiny baby rabbit being held gently in the palm of a man's hand. The caption is "You can tell the character of a man by his attitude to those who can do nothing for him" (or words to that effect).

Someone should show it to Cameron.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 02:20 PM

Back on the desktop. It's far easier!

Dave, he says he is on good terms with gay folk.
Why would he claim to be on good terms with perverts?
He would not.
He does not denigrate anyone for being gay.
Stop persecuting the man.

I know he does. But we only have his word for that. We do not know if he calls them promiscuous perverts to their face or if it is only behind their backs. As to why he would say that, surely even you can see that? "I have nothing against Blacks/Moslems?Queers but..." is an opening line that makes me shudder.

Sorry if I am misreading the situation and genuine concern for anyone suffering but I can only go off what I see on here. And again here, there is no persecution. Taking a stance against what someone has said is not persecution. Unless of course in the strange world of Keith, that word has a different meaning as well. Does it?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 02:24 PM

Jim,
posting with a deliberately faked identity to feign support for your otherwise unsupported argument,

Not what I did.
Look it up Jim.

Steve,
The whole thing is in his own hands: he avoids posting nonsense about gay people, he stops being criticised.

He is entitled to his views, and is happy to defend them.
He would welcome you to challenge them in debate, but that is not what you do.
If you could you would, but you can't, so you resort to abuse.
When a whole gang of you does that on thread after thread, that IS persecution.

Like many, he disagrees with SS marriage and says so.
There is nothing wrong with doing that.
His statements about promiscuity and infection rates are factual.
He does not denigrate anyone for being gay.
You should all get off his back.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 02:29 PM

Dave, you would not even lie about being friends with perverts.
You have no reason to call him a liar, but it would still show that he does not consider gay folk as perverts anyway.

Your accusation is baseless, and clearly false.

He disagrees with SS marriage and says so.
There is nothing wrong with doing that.
His statements about promiscuity and infection rates are factual.
He does not denigrate anyone for being gay.
You should all get off his back and stop persecuting the man.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 02:32 PM

You should all get off his back.

Tell you what, Keith, when the management of Mudcat tells us to stop doing something I will take notice. Until then I am sure you will forgive me if I ignore your requests to a gang that does not exist, to stop something they are not doing.

This place gets stranger by the minute...

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 02:37 PM

You have no reason to call him a liar

And I have not done so. Simply said that we only have his word for it. I keep an open mind. If he tells me that he calls them perverts to their face and they are still friends, I have no reason to disbelieve it. But that has not happened. Good luck to him and all the more to them.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 03:05 PM

He clearly does not denigrate gay folk as perverts.
Even supposing he lied about being friends with some, no-one would even claim to be friends with perverts.
You have no case.

I disagree with him on gay marriage, but I defend his right to express and defend that view.
That is because I am liberal and tolerant, unlike all of you.

You are free to ignore my request to stop ganging up with others in the persecution of another member, just because none of you can challenge his case.

You resort to abuse and think that worthy.
It is not.
It demonstrates your inadequacy.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 03:19 PM

You are free to ignore my request to stop ganging up with others in the persecution of another member, just because none of you can challenge his case.

I choose to ignore the request for no other reason than it is complete twaddle. There is no gang. there is no persecution. Just like minded people standing against bigotry.

Until ake answers the question 'do you believe homosexuals are perverts' there is little point in even discussing it.

While we are on pertinent questions, why do you think i am inadequate? For someone who does not resort to personal abuse that sounds pretty insulting to me. I have only resorted to personal abuse in this case in retaliation for being called a troll and a liar. What is your excuse? Maybe I should rise above it, but I have not. Maybe I should rise above you calling me inadequate and not call you a wanker. I'll think about it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 03:21 PM

"Not what I did."
I have done Keith - but you can put ir u to show I'm wrong if you wish.
You set out to give yourself support - I've no idea why Muskie does what he does, but that is obviously not his intention.
"He does not denigrate anyone for being gay."
Yes he damn well does - a previous posting, which he has not responded to.
"You have persistently depicted homosexuality as unnatural and have, at least once, described the practice as spreading the Gay plague
Describing same sex marriage as an attack on (your particular) family values is homophobic - and none of your business.
You have suggested that homosexuality tends towards pedophilia
The world has moved on - homosexuality is now fully accepted as a natural act.
Comparing homosexuality to addiction - (a self-imposed act) is homophobic - it is the way some people are, not what what they take a decision on - that is a long-established fact and until you get your head around it, you will remain homophobic.
The idea that homosexuality is a curable disease (like addiction) is a myth peddles by religious nutters.
Your patronising "sorrow for those who have felt the need to travel that path" is homophobic in the extreme
Homosexuality is a natural state for some people - like being left-handed.
Every posting you make on homosexuality serves only to make our point."
Ake has made every single one of those points, in several cases, on this thread.
homosexuality is a fact of life as is addiction, I feel sorrow for those who have felt the need to travel that path
Are we to assume that you are now out of the closet and share Ake's homophobic views?
There - isn't that better to get that load off your chest?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 03:53 PM

I choose to ignore the request for no other reason than it is complete twaddle.

It is not twaddle.
All of you together hound him from thread to thread with abuse.

There is no gang. there is no persecution. Just like minded people (acting together as a gang!) standing against bigotry.

"Standing against bigotry"
That IS twaddle Dave!

Disagreeing with ss marriage is not bigotry.
Referring to real issues like infection and the role of promiscuity in the high rates is not bigotry.

If he was just making bigoted statements you could easily challenge and rubbish them.
But you can't.
That is why you all gang up and persecute him with mindless abuse and name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:07 PM

Sorry for absence, just back from HD.

Big Al says...."i bet Ake feels like he's been set upon by a gang."

The gang don't bother me Al, they are like children. As Keith says, they simply have no reasoned response to my criticisms of the legislation.....they flounder about in their own ideology trying to insult, intimidate, browbeat, bully, but no reasonable argument for the redefinition can be found.
I would just say Al, that I do not yet go around muttering to myself, I am quite sure of the seriousness of this issue and try to be as accurate as possible in everything I print.
I have discussed the matter of homosexual "marriage" with the three couples who live in my vicinity, none wish to avail themselves of it and are quite happy to explain why. They see themselves as "different" to heterosexual family orientated people and are quite proud of the difference.....they have no wish to conform to heterosexual norms.

Only the densest idiot would hold to the case that all was well in male homosexual health.....the problem of course is intrinsic to the lifestyle, both the levels of promiscuity and the sexual practices involved in male homosexual behaviour.
In many cases homosexual "marriage" and union involve not just two men, but two men who are "married" or in Civil Union (primary partners) and a group of sexual partners known to each of the primary partners.   This is known as "The new monogamy" and according to the health agencies "open" relationships are one of the biggest risk factors in the MSM demographic.
Male homosexuality is demonstrably dangerous and unhealthy, the latest 2013 figures are a staggering 81% of all new infections amongst MSM....these results for HIV
, but the results for most male STDs are similar.

In conclusion most of the real liberals on this forum reside in the USA with the very honourable exception on this thread of AL, Keith and Hilo. There are others, but Steve, Raggytash or Dave the Troll do not rank amongst them.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:19 PM

Disagreeing with gay marriage is not bigotry. Disagreeing with gay marriage, shouting your disagreement from the rooftops, claiming that it undermines society and will encourage sexual promiscuity because that's what gay people do, and declaring that gay marriage undermines an institute that is based on nothing more than tradition - well, in my book, that's bigotry. And it's bigotry that sets out to harm its targets. The worst kind. Sorry Keith. As ever, you're on the wrong side. As ever, lamentably, you won't see it in a million years.

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:25 PM

My last post was sent before Akenaton's latest nastiness was posted. Come along now, Ake-allies. Support that one if you have the cojones. How foul can you get?

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:25 PM

Not only that Steve, but as the "Bigamy" thread illustrates, redefinition opens a veritable Pandora's box......and as always who suffers most? the children!!

Subject: RE: BS: David Cameron is execrable
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 15 - 04:26 PM

Prove it.