what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)

Subject: what do the words mean?
From: DADGBE
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 09:16 PM

In Paul Brady's amazing rendition of 'The Creel', (Child 281) he sings,
...And it's oh, the blue, the bonny blue and may the blue do well...

What does this refer to?

Thanks in advance for your assistance,
Ray

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?
From: cnd
Date: 22 Sep 15 - 10:14 PM

Well, I'm not too knowledgeable about Child Ballads or how they're collected, but the Wikipedia page says they also collected their American variants, and that they were collected in the late 19th century, so it is possible it's referring to "the Bonnie Blue Flag" of the CSA. But I honestly doubt that.

But, in MUCH less hypothetical terms, "bonny" is a term of endearment and means attractive or beautiful, and I found a poem titled "The Blue-Eyed Lassie" by Robert Burns (Click) that mentions "the bonnie blue," obviously in reference to their love's blue eyes. So, depending on of Burns' poem came first or not, it could be an allusion, or even a popular term to call your loved one who may happen to have blue eyes (as many Scottish and English people do, which also happens to be where the Child Ballads were collected from).

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Reinhard
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 12:12 AM

According to Kenneth S. Goldstein in the notes on Ewan MacColl's version of The Keach in the Creel in the Riverside anthology The English and Scottish Popular Ballads, it was "extremely rare in the United States, only a single complete text has been collected (in the Catskill Mountains of New York State)." And the reference to the bonnie blue turns up in various Scottish versions. So you're well suited in doubting your first theory.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 12:59 AM

Hi, DADgbe...

There's an interesting note in the Digital Tradition version called P)retty Peg:

Hope you or someone else can fill in the asterisks; look for a similar but more detailed Scottish version called "The Blue Blanket" which describes the lovely young daughter hiding her boyfriend in a blue blanket while Daddy comes up to check on her, and the boyfriend's brother/accomplice
waits on the roof for a tug on the rope to pull him back up. When Momma falls into the basket, of course the accomplice starts hauling, Momma starts screeching that the Devil has her and a fun time is had by all!"

That version came from a post (click) from the wonderful and wise Mary LaMarca, who died a few years ago. So, I'mn gathering that the "blue" verse is a remnant from the earlier "Blue Blanket" version, in which the blue blanket may have played a more significant part.

The "blue" verse isn't unusual - it's in both Child 281a and 281b. Neither has been posted at Mudcat or in the Digital Tradition, but you can find them here (click).

-Joe-

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 01:46 AM

Well, there's a song that goes

O, the broom, the bonnie, bonnie broom -
the broom of the Cowden Knowes....

Perhaps somebody heard 'broom' in a floating verse, didn't know that broom is a plant, and decided it must have been 'blue.'

Subject: ADD Version: The Keach i' the Creel (Child 281a)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 02:45 AM

Child 281a comes from Whitelaw's Book of Scottish Ballads (1845), and I think it's one of the funniest of the Child Ballads. Here's the text:


1. A fair young may went up the street,
Some white-fish for to buy,
And a bonnie clerk's faen in love wi her,
And he's followed her by and by, by,
And he's followed her by and by.

2. 'O where live ye, my bonnie lass,
I pray thee tell to me;
For gin the nicht were ever sae mirk
I wad come and visit thee.'

3. 'O my father he aye locks the door,
My mither keeps the key;
And gin ye were ever sic a wily wight
Ye canna win in to me.'

4. But the clerk he had ae true brother,
And a wily wight was he;
And he has made a lang ladder,
Was thirty steps and three.

5. He has made a cleek but and a creel,
A creel but and a pin;
And he's away to the chimley-top,
And he's letten the bonnie clerk in.

6. The auld wife, being not asleep,
Heard something that was said;
'I'll lay my life,' quo the silly auld wife,
'There's a man i our dochter's bed.'

7. The auld man he gat owre the bed,
To see if the thing was true;
But she's ta'en the bonny clerk in her arms,
And coverd him owre wi blue.

8. 'O where are ye gaun now, father?' she says,
'And where are ye gaun sae late?
Ye've disturbd me in my evening prayers,
And O but they were sweet!'

9. 'O ill betide ye, silly auld wife,
And an ill death may ye die!
She has the muckle buik in her arms,
And she's prayin for you and me.'

10. The auld wife being not asleep,
Then something mair was said;
'I'll lay my life,' quo the silly auld wife,
'There's a man i our dochter's bed.'

11. The auld wife she got owre the bed,
To see if the thing was true;
But what the wrack took the auld wife's fit?
For into the creel she flew.

12. The man that was at the chimley-top,
Finding the creel was fu,
He wrappit the rape round his left shouther,
And fast to him he drew.

13. 'O help! O help! O hinny, now, help!
O help, O hinny, now!
For him that ye aye wished me to
He's carryin me off just now.'

14. 'O if the foul thief's gotten ye,
I wish he may keep his haud;
For a' the lee lang winter nicht
Ye'll never lie in your bed.'

15. He's towed her up, he's towed her down,
He's towed her through an through;
'O Gude assist!' quo the silly auld wife,
'For I'm just departin now.'

16. He's towed her up, he's towed her down,
He's gien her a richt down-fa,
Till every rib i the auld wife's side
Playd nick-nack on the wa.

17. O the blue, the bonnie, bonnie blue,
And I wish the blue may do weel!
And every auld wife that's sae jealous o her dochter,
May she get a good keach i the creel

Here's the introduction to the song, from The Book of Scottish Ballads:
This genuine sample of the old humorous ballad was taken down from the recitation of a gentleman in Liddendale, where it has long been popular. It is here first printed, with the exception of a few copies for private distribution.

More on Child 781a: http://71.174.62.16/Demo/LongerHarvest?Text=Child_d28101

Click here for the entry at folkinfo.org

---

And I still think the blue is just a reference to the blue blanket that hid the girl's lover.

Subject: ADD Version: The Contriving Lover (Child 281)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 03:14 AM

In another thread, the late Bruce Olsen makes reference to an earlier version of this song, titled "The Contriving Lover." Here's what I found at the broadside collection at the University of California at Santa Barbara:

T:The Contriving Lover:
Or, The Fortunate Mistake.
With the Old Womans Journey to Heaven up the Chimney in a Hand-Basket. Together with her Dreadful Downfall from the Chimney-Top to the Chimney-Corner.
To the Tune of, I often with my Jenny strove, etc.
Licensed according to Order.

      (1)
A Rich Old Miser of Renown,
Who dwelt within a Country Town,
He had a Daughter young and fair,
As lively and as brisk as Ayre;
A Spark had got so far in Favour,
    that they oftentimes had been
Kissing and Clasping, Dying Gasping,
    Lovers, you know what I mean.

      (2)
The Miser thought the Youth too Wild,
And not a Match fit for his Child;
He fearing what had pass'd before,
Forewarn'd him coming any more:
Farther to prevent their Meeting,
    and contrivance out of door,
He did command her, to her Chamber,
    and there Lock'd her up secure.

      (3)
When this sad News her Lover knew,
He greatly discontented grew;
Resolving by some means, that he
His loving Dame again would see:
Knowing the Chimney of her Chamber,
    he got on the Old Dads House-top,
A Letter bearing, words so 'ndearing,
    he did down the Chimney drop.

      (4)
Desiring that she would next Night
Take care to keep her Candle light,
For he intended then by stealth,
To visit her that way himself.
This kind News did so surprize her,
    and such Joys to her impart,
Thought of possessing, such a Blessing,
    much reviv'd her drooping heart.

      (5)
The Night ensuing quickly came,
When he resolv'd to see his Dame,
He then desir'd a trusty Friend,
That he would his assistance lend.
In a Basket he was let down,
    his fair Prize for to obtain,
Giving him Order, if the Cord stir,
    for to pluck him up again.

      (6)
When down into the Room he came,
He welcom'd was by his fair Dame;
Their eager Passions to content,
They Kist, and into Bed they went:
Eager to possess the blessing,
    fears and cares were soon destroy'd,
Loving Caresses, and Embraces,
    by these Lovers were enjoy'd.

      (7)
The Miser and his Wife lay near,
Who did the Tell-tale Bed-Cords hear;
The Old Woman in a heavy plight,
Cry'd, Husband rise and strike a Light,
Somebody's got to Bed with our Daughter,
    for I hear the Bed-Cords Crack:
The Miser amazed, soon was raised,
    and into the Room did pack.

      (8)
They hearing the Old Miser Rise,
Which did the Lovers both surprize;
The Daughter, in a thousand fears,
Whips out of Bed, and falls to Prayers;
Begging God to bless her Father,
    who she thought was best of Men;
Begging his Thriving, and his living
    to the Age of Methusalem.

      (9)
He hearing what his Daughter said,
Return'd again and went to Bed,
And call'd his Wife and ill-tongu'd Beast,
Who did so base a thing suggest:
The Old Woman lay a while and listen'd,
    being not well satisfy'd;
They possessing, of their blessing,
    then she heard again, she cry'd.

      (10)
Then slyly up got the Old Dame,
And into her Daughers Rooms she came,
She happen'd to stumble at a Stool,
Did into th' Lovers Basket fall:
Up was drawn the poor Old Woman,
    who in th' Basket Screaming lay;
To the top he drew her, down again threw her
    whilst his Friend escap'd away.


Printed for R. Kell, at the Blew Anchor in Pye-Corner. 1690.

Nothing blue in this one....

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 10:14 AM

Yes, I think you are right about the blue cover, Joe.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 10:16 AM

" I think you are right about the blue cover, Joe."
Second that - it's what I have always assumed anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Rumncoke
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 11:57 AM

Blue was a common colour for dying of wool - it would be indigo, presumably.

There are many blue based Scottish tartans and there were the blue bonnets they wore even when the tartans were forbidden. Some scraps of old fabric which have a deal of white in them when analysed forensically were originally mainly blue but it has washed or bleached out over many years.

Of course the Scottish saltire flag is mainly blue, so just the word 'blue' could infer Scotland or Scottish.

However - I was once asked about blue heather - the bonny blue ling heather...

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Sep 15 - 03:21 PM

Yes, I also think the blue in the final verse is the blanket which was the principal means of her lover not being discovered.

Just one pedantic point though, Joe. The 17thc ballad is not a version of Keech i' the Creel. They are both versions of the same story but not the same ballad. They have no text in common. Whilst it is highly likely that the Child Ballad was based on the London ballad as in some other cases, it is not actually the same ballad by modern definitions.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 01:00 AM

Well, I can blame "The Contriving Lover" on the late Bruce Olson, Steve. But despite the modern definition, wouldn't Child call it Child 281?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: DADGBE
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 01:48 AM

My own hypothesis is that both the references to a blue blanket/coverlet and the bonnie blue doing well are references to Scotland. After all, we see green vs. orange factions in Ireland and many other color associations with countries, dynasties, and royal houses.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 02:10 AM

While such things are possible, DADGBE, it seems unlikely given the date of the first printed version with the 'blue' reference and the absence of other references to Scotland. My own belief is that it is a reference to the blanket. But there are other possibilities: As the Oxford English Dictionary has it, 'blue' is a common term for servants, military ("The Rout has now come for the Blues", for example), and other public servants like police. If it is not the blanket, I would favour a reference to the lover themselves.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 03:30 AM

"Whilst it is highly likely that the Child Ballad was based on the London ballad"
Hardly.
The story of the Keach in the Creel dates back at least as far as the Italian fableux which tells of the apprentice of a renaissance painter employing a trick with a swarm of beetles in order to have his wicked way with his master's daughter - old as the hills.
It was in the 'folk' domain at least in one form or another as early as the fifteenth century.
The broadside version was part of a long line of forms and we have no idea where in the line it came or whether the hacks took it from a singer or storyteller, as is just as likely - even more, as they were not renowned for producing 'deathless verse'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Rumncoke
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 06:12 AM

The regiment has a connection with Scotland, being raised by Oliver Cromwell to invade it.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 06:31 AM

Indeed so. The Blues are not the military in general, but specifically the Royal Regiment of Horse Guards, part of the Household Cavalry, along with the Life Guards the traditional Sovereign's Escort, who guard particularly Horse Guards Parade, the Whitehall parade ground where The Colour is Trooped to celebrate the sovereign's birthday. The RHG has recently been amalgamated with another distinguished royal regiment, the Royal Horse Artillery, and is now called The Blues and Royals.

But whether the toast at the conclusion of The Keach In The Creel has any connection to this particular distinguished arm of the service is another question. I can't offhand see why it should.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 09:28 AM

Various colours are used with reference to the military. They refer to the colour of the trimmings on the uniform which varied between regiments, or, in the case of The Royal Horse Guards, to the uniform itself.

Going back to the original topic we often try to read too much into ballads. With oral transmission modegreens creep in and singers forget pieces and substitute something else or just change things because they think they sound better.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 12:39 PM

I didn't mean to suggest a link with that specific regiment - that was simply an illustration how songs can use colours to refer to people indirectly. As I say, my inclination is the blanket interpretation.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 03:06 PM

Hi Jim,
Of course you are right that the story is widely known and very old but I would contend that the 17th century ballad is sufficiently close to the 18thc Scots song to suggest a much stronger link and therefore the likelihood is that the Scots derives directly from the English. Only an opinion but based on good grounds.

Joe, As for Child including it with 281, perhaps, but by the time he had got into the last volume he had a greater understanding of what versions consisted of and I feel with good grounds that he would have included the broadside in the appendix like he did with others similar. It would not in that sense have been a Child Ballad.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 05:50 PM

The ballad is also known by the alternative title The Covering Blue, as in Child's 281D version found in Kinloch's MSS from Alexander Kinnear of Stonehaven, in reference to the blue bed-cover under which the girl hides her lover. The Greig-Duncan Collection has more examples with a similar titles; The Coverin Blue (317A) from Mrs Margaret Gillespie and The Coerin' Blue (317E) from R D Reid. These share a verse with some other versions of The Creel in which the old wife declares she had a dream in which the rottens [rats] crept out of a hole in the wall and cut the covering blue, which certainly is one of the most graphic and gruesome metaphors for loss of virginity!

I dream't a dream, it's sine the streen
I hinna wull it be true,
That the rottens cam out o a hole in the wa
En cuttit the coverin blue.

(From the singing of Mrs Margaret Gillespie)

So the 'bonny blue' common to the last verse of most versions of The Creel, is the blue bed-cover which hides the girl's lover from detection; presumably made from blue cloth or wool.

Matthew

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: DADGBE
Date: 24 Sep 15 - 11:33 PM

A most felicitous discussion, I trow!

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Sep 15 - 12:54 PM

The Blue Blanket was the flag of the Covenanters (and blue has remained a colour associated with Protestantism to the present day, e.g. in the Rangers strip).

Which is no more likely to have anything to do with this ballad than that hogwash about blue in tartans or irrelevancies about regimental flags.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Sep 15 - 01:38 PM

Nice one, Jack.

The rats motif first appears in Peter Buchan's version and it's very likely he published it on broadsides locally. The dream bit and the sexual reference is absolutely typical of Peter.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: DADGBE
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 05:12 PM

This has been a most civil and interesting discussion. I respectfully ask Jack Campin and Steve Gardham to assist the rest of the participants by keeping to the topic. Disparaging ad hominum remarks aren't needed.

Thanks,
Ray

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 07:54 PM

DADgbe, there was some idle speculation above that I'm sure Jack and Steve found annoying, and it brought forth their curmudgeonry...

Peter Buchan's version of the song is Child 281c, and comes from the first volume of his Ballads from the North of Scotland (1828?). So, Buchan would be a bit earlier than Whitelaw's 1845 book.

---

Here's the Traditional Ballad Index version of this song, which offers some interesting sources to explore:

Keach i the Creel, The [Child 281]

DESCRIPTION: A clerk and a girl wish to keep company, but she cannot escape her parents' home. He plans to to meet her by going down the chimney in a creel The suspicious mother enters the room and is pulled up in the creel, then dropped by the startled rope-puller
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1827 (Kinloch)
KEYWORDS: courting father mother elopement nightvisit humorous
FOUND IN: Britain(England(North),Scotland(Aber,Bord)) Ireland US(MA,NE) Canada(Mar)
REFERENCES (17 citations):
Child 281, "The Keach i the Creel" (4 texts, 1 tune) {Bronson's #12}
Bronson 281, "The Keach i the Creel" (38 versions)
Dixon-Peasantry, Ballad #13, pp. 112-116,243, "The Keach I the Creel" (1 text)
Bell-Combined, pp. 295-297, "The Keach i' the Creel" (1 text)
GreigDuncan2 317, "The Wee Toon Clerk" (20 texts, 15 tunes) {C=Bronson's #7, E=#38, F=#11, G=#10, H=#9, I=#18, J=#32, M=#2, N=#3, O=#31, P=#33}
Lyle-Crawfurd1 25, "The Auld Wife and the Peat Creel" (1 text, 1 tune)
BarryEckstormSmyth pp. 336-339, "The Keach i' the Creel" (1 text plus a fragment, 2 tunes) {Bronson's #5, #6}
Flanders-Ancient4, pp. 136-138, "The Keach i' the Creel" (1 fragment, 1 tune)
Ford-Vagabond, pp. 277-280, "The Wee Toun Clerk" (1 text, 1 tune) {Bronson's #13}
Stokoe/Reay, pp. 22-23, "The Keach i' the Creel" (1 text, 1 tune) {cf. Bronson's #4}
FSCatskills 133, "The Little Scotch Girl" (1 text, 1 tune)
SHenry H201, pp. 265-266, "The Ride in the Creel" (1 text, 1 tune)
Graham/Holmes 64, "The Ride in the Creel" (1 text, 1 tune)
Tunney-StoneFiddle, pp. 92-93, "The Cetch in the Creel" (1 text)
Kinloch-BBook XVII, pp. 61-63, "The Covering Blue" (1 text)
Whitelaw-Ballads, pp. 35-36, "Keach I' the Creel" (1 text)
DT 281, KEACHCRL*
Roud #120
RECORDINGS:
Michael Gallagher, "The Keach in the Creel" (on FSB5, FSBBAL2) {Bronson's #36, with the title "Hurroo-Ri-Ah"}
Jamsie McCarthy, "Coochie Coochie Coo Go Way" (on Voice15)
SAME TUNE:
Moody to the Rescue (File: FowM005)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
The Cunning Clerk
The Wife and the Creel
The Rock in the Same Auld Creel
NOTES: Kinloch's "The Covering Blue" omit the ride in the creel, but is obviously the same song (and Child included it as his "D" text). Thus, though most of the humor of the piece comes when the clerk hauls the auld woman up the chimney, the key point is the nightvisiting theme. - RBW
Whitelaw-Ballads is Child's source for text 281A. - BS
Last updated in version 3.5
File: C281

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Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Sep 15 - 08:14 PM

We were simply responding with opinions on what had been expressed previously in the thread. I thought that was the idea on this forum! Any threaddrift wasn't initiated by us.

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 15 - 02:17 AM

Pedantically, DADGBE (26 Sep 0512PM) -- "ad hominem".

I have searched in vain for irritable or disparaging comments, on the part of Steve or Jack or anyone else; but failed to find any particularly contentious posts. By general Mudcat standards, this seems to be a perfectly civil and unaggressive thread. Seems to me to be DADGBE who is trying for some reason to introduce an element of controversy to it.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 15 - 02:28 AM

Now, Michael.... ;-)

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Sep 15 - 02:34 AM

"Now... ;-)", what, Joe? It's not me trying to introduce this contentious element into the proceedings; I merely try to identify those who appear to me to be doing so.

Have never before taken you for a shooter of the messenger!

Best

≈M≈

Subject: RE: what do the words mean?Child Ballad 281(The Creel)
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Sep 15 - 08:09 AM

My favorite recorded versions:

Jean Redpath (who sang it under the title of "The Wee Toon Clerk") and Ewan MacColl.

And I suppose that dates me.