BS: Tory party conference

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 05:14 PM

Ake, what happened to me is a bunch of cunts wrecking every thread they involve themselves in, driving decent, reasonable people away, and causing a very undesirable change in moderation policy.nwhich results in otherwise interesting threads being closed.

That's it - argue like idiots until you're all blue in the face. I'm gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 03:33 PM

Interesting you should chose that thread. It is too long winded to summarise simply but there are some salient points. Firstly, it was about someone leaving and ake managed to turn it round to his pet subject of compulsory testing for homosexuals. Secondly, he predicted, as he does regularly, that the BS section would be closed. That was over 2 years ago. Finally, the thread was closed by the mods. Something that will inevitably happen here.

Just saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 03:11 PM

I really have tried to ignore him in the hope he'll go away

Yeah right, Jim. Of course you have....

Delusional? I'm not judging

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 03:04 PM

they don't 'win' anything at all!
Couldn't give a toss whether they win or lose - just wnat them to go away and am prepared to allow them to humiliate themselves -
a - Until they do
or - b as a second best
Either way, the result is the same.
I really have tried to ignore him in the hope he'll go away - doesn't work - he's like a cold sore - you have to let him run his course.
Remind me - have I ever told you what or what not to post - apologies if I have - extremely bad manners - not to mention a tad undemocratic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 02:01 PM

Backwoodsman, I used to respect you as a realist and a fair minded person and a canny debater, well illustrated on
THIS thread

What has happened to you?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 01:03 PM

But that's just the point, Jimbo - if you don't argue with them, if you don't interact with them, they don't 'win' anything at all! How can they 'win' a battle that doesn't exist?

You argue and argue and argue, but they never concede even one tiniest smidgeon of anything you say so, in their minds, they 'win' every time.

And frankly, I care far less about who 'wins' the constant round-and-round childish arguments you crowd persist in forcing on the forum, than I do about the thoughtful, interesting, funny, intelligent people you've driven away, and the interesting, threads you've driven the mods to close.

I don't 'offer too much in opposition to his extremism, his dishonesty, his insulting behaviour and his excesses' quite deliberately, because I believe that virtually everyone here can see precisely those things, and I refuse to lower myself to his level (and that of his few supporters). I'm not wasting my time on shit, and I'm not going to make a bloody daft kid of myself.

That's it, I'm finding myself arguing with those whose opinions I support, but whose tactics, sadly, I deplore. And I'm sad about that but, just like you, I have my own standards to maintain.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:44 PM

"So why do you keep arguing with KAoH then - over and over and over ad nauseam?"
Sort of like Everest - because he's there.
Keith has been haunting this forum for as long as I've been on it - don't recall you offering too much in opposition to his extremism, his dishonesty, insulting behaviour and his excesses.
I've said it before - I would love to see some Muslims on this forum - there was one once I believe.
Over the last year or so Keith has been forced to back down and tone down his behaviour - it hasn't happened out of a sense of respect for other members of this thread, but because he and his phantom historians have become a bit of a joke thanks to those who have stood up to him (as I said - not much sign of you there).
The fact that there are those happy to continue to make immigrants, refugees and gays the butt of their prejudices indicates (I hope) that there are those who are prepared to tell it as it is.
I've mostly enjoyed and benefited from genuine discussion here, but there are occasions when that has been somewhat like trying to carry on a conversation with a fractious child in the room, and when the alternative has been to let those who wish to, "win" something and have the last word.
I personally, don't find that satisfactory.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 12:25 PM

"Totally agree with PFR's first point - little point in arguing with people who won't discuss the real issues and stick where they are most comfortable - in this case, 'Little England' "

So why do you keep arguing with KAoH then - over and over and over ad nauseam?
Thanks for proving me right - you can't stop yourself from feeding the troll.
You're as daft as he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 11:57 AM

ake - are you really blaming immigrants for 2 wasted generations of glaswegians? i'd say there have been several wasted generations in all the less successful parts of the uk - and all over the world. poverty, and all the problems it causes are not caused by immigration -it's capitalism.
it's very simple really. a socialist would understand it instinctively, a communist would know it, if nothing else. a liberal would want to help (a few ) immigrants while excusing the capitalists. only a racist would blame foreigners for all our problems.

big al - call me pedantic but 'i see clearly what you're saying ake. the bottom of society is very bad for poor people in england' -isnae right, pal. he was writing about the glasgow area, still in scotland!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:57 AM

Who's "you crowd", Jim??

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:25 AM

Totally agree with PFR's first point - little point in arguing with people who won't discuss the real issues and stick where they are most comfortable - in this case, 'Little England'
Not sure of his second point though - not sure I could sleep comfortably at the thought of snakes under the bed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:02 AM

Sorry - Got the name wrong. Enter the fist (Even better :-) )

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 09:01 AM

just a further point.. underneath my sarcasm & sardonic exterior lies a caring human being.

If I actually knew Keith in real life, if he was one of the old blokes down the local pub...

[and I actually do know someone not too dissimilar - our crowd's token right winger..]

Then, there are times you'd want to keep an eye on the old fella just to make sure he's alright
and get's home safe ok...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:59 AM

For Kung Fu moves I would certainly recommend

Kung Pow - The way of the fist

Enjoy :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:49 AM

Dave - yeah.. now I'm no military historian, but I've watched enough classic old 1950s Black & White war films
and tripe 1970s Kung Fu movies
to have learnt it's best to chose your battles wisely...

As for squabbling for days on end about just one word ?
There is one amongst us for whom the word 'Pedantic' must have been specially invented and introduced into our language.... 😜

He certainly seems to have a special need for the attention of his 'opponents',
as if to validate his own existence...???

"I argue perpetually and obsessively without end, therefore I am..." ...???

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:47 AM

You crowd totally ignore the facts and figures of immigration - no threat to British jobs from immigrants - just from predatory employers and Government policy which allows them to do what they do - nowt to do with immigrants.
You ignore the advantage of free movement of employment to British people unable to find work at home - official.
Your arguments have moved very little from the 'Keep Britain White' campaigns of the 50s and 60s, except they now include Europeans.
Ironically enough, the Beeb has has just announced that the boss of M&S has mounted a stay-in campaign, claiming that the advantages of doing so are enormously important to Britain as a whole.
No time for big business,, but it kicks the Little Englander (preserve our way of life) mob right into touch.
Immigratuion is not a threat to the British people, it never has been and it never will be.
Claims that it is is the domain of ultra-right bigots
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 08:21 AM

Yet another link from the past. Any recent examples of his hypocrisy in ridiculing a newspaper that would not give him a job in 2010? Any comment of personal attacks on him by a mail columnist for ridiculing a newspaper rather than a person?

In any case, it is window dressing. Yet more derailing tactics. That is certainly one thing you are good at, Keith. I will concede that.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:51 AM

Hypocrite or learned by his mistakes

Hypocrite.
See these other examples of him.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/willheaven/100239857/mehdi-hasan-and-the-daily-mail-some-context/

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:44 AM

And, sorry, PFR, I did see your earlier comment but have only just realised the full significance. Yes, you are right, for anyone to get so hung up on the meaning of one word is pretty silly and very indicative of nothing better to do :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:41 AM

Hypocrite or learned by his mistakes? And there is a huge difference between attacks on a newspaper and attacks on an individual. But I thought you may have known that, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:41 AM

It is if you have no money.

Yes Rag.
There is a similar restriction on many everyday activities, but it is not a border control.
There are no border controls on EU migration.
Such immigration is unrestricted.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:37 AM

Dave's link has some anti Mail stuff by Mehdi Hasan.
A different story when he tried to get a job on it.
Hypocrite.

http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2013/10/mehdi-hasan-please-please-please-can-i-work-for-the-daily-mail/

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:31 AM

It is if you have no money.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 06:28 AM

"The only "restriction" that can be put on EU migrants is the need for an EU passport."
No it isn't ...
Yes it is Jim.
And Dave, there are no restrictions on EU citizens entering UK.
No border restrictions.
The need to buy a ticket is not a restriction.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:54 AM

"The only "restriction" that can be put on EU migrants is the need for an EU passport."
No it isn't and the the fact you are studiously ignoring is that it works both ways and British people can step outside of 'fortress Britain' to seek work and expand their horizons, should they wish - one of the greatest advantages of the E.U. to the British people.
Of course, they could be left to stew in their own juice in Britain's boot camps and on the unemployment lines - (1.6m at present time - and this doesn't include those forced to take unpleasant and inappropriate work in order to stay alive).
One of the great differences between British and Irish youth is that so many of the latter have chased work all around the globe, acquired skills, languages and experience that I have seldom encountered in those back home - and I'm not talking about the ones who have had the benefit of a higher education and are looking for careers.
The end result is a broader-minded, far more internationally tolerant group of young people.
Emigration for work should never be forced on anybody, but it certainly is an advantage when offered as an opportunity.   
".that amounts to hundreds of millions of people who have the option to come here if they wish"
"Research conducted by the Migration Policy Institute for the Equality and Human Rights Commission suggests that, between May 2004 and September 2009, 1.5 million workers migrated from the new EU member states to the UK, but that many have returned home, with the result that the number of nationals of the new member states in the UK increased by some 700,000 over the same period.Migration from Poland in particular has become temporary and circular in nature."
SECRET STATISTICS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:46 AM

Try again...

Best Daily Mail correction ever.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:41 AM

a href="https://twitter.com/junayed_/status/489807629456523264?s=04">Best Daily Mail correction ever.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 09:38 PM

i think this is the perennial problem with left wing idealists. my parents were cnd/greepeace/quakers.

they were so excited when michael foot pipped Hattersley for the labour leadership. i said well thats the tories in for the next eight years - i was ten years out.

you can NEVER get these people to appreciate what a bad deal poor people get from the tories, and how vital to basic decency they don't get elected.

i see so clearly what you're saying Ake on this subject. the bottom of society is very bad for poor people in England.

i can remember reasoning with some trotskyists who were refusing to let james callaghan make a single campaign speech in 1979. they really didn't give a shit about the poor children in my classes in the inner ring of brum, and what would befall England if Thatcher got elected. not a fucking clue. it was all taking us towards the great revolution.

this present policy can only benefit one section of our society.

we are wasting our time - you reasoning with a paint by numbers liberalism that is just pandering to their guilty conscience for living in a rich country.

i got the the story legend of Una Bhan from an album by Joe Heaney. i sent it to to the local tourist office in Ireland they didn't seem much interested. the bass is a bit wanky on it - i get impatient - i lack that quietude of mind that produces masterpieces. i still think it s a good idea. they'll love me when i'm dead. possibly...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:35 PM

Allan, have you been taking lessons in irony from Mr McGrath?

Sewage and Education!....tut tut!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:28 PM

"Simply illustrating the idiocy of the policy Steve. Calm down, haven't you had your hot milk yet? Its after midnight."

Without any help from me you have illustrated the idiocy of your scaremongering. And you know me. Never anything other than calm. Sensible post from Allan. Read and learn. If you can read at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:28 PM

BTW AL Thanks for the link to your music, it's great. Enjoyed "Una Bhan" very much. Your guitar has a terrific tone, mine sounds like a cardboard box in comparison. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:22 PM

Allan ...of course "hundreds of millions" are not going to come here, but they DO have the option.
What is the limit? or is there no limit?
Net immigration is currently running at 350000 per annum, that's over half a million coming here every year and rising.
We have no means of stopping that without pulling out of the EU

What are we going to do about our own young people on benefits or jobs with zero hours contracts, when another couple of million are here working for low wages.
Its heaven for poor Eastern Europeans, but hell for young Scots.

I don't know where you live Allan but have you ever visited the schemes in the East of Glasgow, Possil, Greenock, Dumbarton, Clydebank?.....I have, been through the stinking high rises, seen the effects of the rampant drug culture.....two lost bewildered and hopeless generations.   rotting away because it's cheaper to import labour than give our children a purpose and a fucking future.

Occasionally I get angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:20 PM

to be honest i know sod all about entry to the states or australia. i find it a bit of a stretch going to poole and bournemouth folk clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:05 PM

Simply illustrating the idiocy of the policy Steve. Calm down, haven't you had your hot milk yet? Its after midnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:03 PM

If we left the EU and remained part of the UK then about 60 million people would still be unrestricted and be able to come and live in Scotland. Our schools and sewage system couldn't possibly cope!!! Then again we all know very well that the entire population of the UK isn't really going to move to Scotland.....Just as we know full well that hundreds of millions of EU citizens aren't coming to the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 06:54 PM

"The point is, anyone of working age and resident in the EU can come here without restrictions.....that amounts to hundreds of millions of people who have the option to come here if they wish."

You just don't listen, do you? You know, I've had PMs from mods defending you, saying that you're entitled, etc., but you don't engage, do you? This thread contains measured posts about why the attitude your comments betray is so misguided. Your remark about hundreds of millions is archetypal UKIP scaremongering. You know damn well that hundreds of millions have no such real-world options. Read the bloody thread and learn, or just knock it off with your illiberal and inhumane nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 06:27 PM

The point is, anyone of working age and resident in the EU can come here without restrictions.....that amounts to hundreds of millions of people who have the option to come here if they wish.
To me that is absolute madness and hellishly unfair to the people who worked hard and fought two wars to keep us free.
They have to watch their children rot on miserly benefits with no self respect and little chance of a proper job....a country fit for hero's?

Is Australian immigration policy more sensible than ours? Very definitely yes, their immigration policy is aimed at benefitting the whole of the Australian people, not wet nursing the world.

America's borders appear to be pretty porous....but that is illegal immigration, we haven't a bloody clue how many illegal immigrants are here for the beer.

In this area, the police have a round -up every few months and a couple of van loads are collected from the Indian restaurants and kebab shops.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 03:40 PM

In all honesty, Al, and without wishing to set a booby trap (not a debating tactic I approve of), do you really think that the US and Oz have got better policies than ours?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 03:25 PM

well it won't get you into most places where there is a living to be had. the states or australa for example...

so it does make us fairly unique.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 03:00 PM

A passport. And money. And the bottle to do it. Numpty indeed...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:49 PM

The only "restriction" that can be put on EU migrants is the need for an EU passport.
That is a given, surely? All immigrants everywhere need a passport.....Jesus Christ!! what a bunch of numpties.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:40 PM

"Jim, the "free movement of labour" says that there should be no impediment to economic migrants entering any country in the EU."
There are restrictions - you have had a list of them from Steve - are you claiming anybody can walk in?
The European Union charter allows free movement to and from Member States (with the qualifications Dave just listed), but that is a two way process offered to citizens of Britain who wish to work in Europe - no problem by me - wish it had been available when I was younger.
Am I to assume that you are not going to respond to Keith's and your 'inaccuracies' about what he linked and didn't link and whethet he is in the "majority" or not.
I find your hit-and-run style of debate more and more fascinating the more you indulge in it.
"Utter nonsense."
I was taking elections as a whole - having said which, the Tories took 37% of the vote - not a majority as Keith or Ake claims.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 01:58 PM

Dave - Can't disagree with your 2nd point..

But do put up for consideration - effective prioritisation of skirmishes and battle, and best tactics / strategies for confronting and resisting... ???

Certainly the importance of avoiding falling into trap of facilitating letting the 'enemy' set the battleground
and terms and method of engagement...

Just to fuel all side's pride & vanity at not being seen to down a a singleinch...

ie.. squabbling on for bloody days about the use of just one word.. eg.. "unrestricted" 😴

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 01:36 PM

Free movement of labour within the EU is indeed a myth. You need an EU passport. You need the money to travel. You need the wherewithal to up sticks and leave your home. You need hide like a rhinoceros to put up with the shit you will get. Nothing in this world is free.

BWM. It is a good theory and one that has been expounded on many forums. You are to be applauded for sticking to you beliefs but, sadly, I have seen it fail all to often. If you continue to ignore the the more extreme views they end up taking over. In my opinion the worse thing the majority can do is let a minority take over. I will not bore you with Pastor Martin Niemöller's well known statement but we would all do well to remember it.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 01:02 PM

Jim, the "free movement of labour" says that there should be no impediment to economic migrants entering any country in the EU.

That is unrestricted? Or do you know something that we don't? Maybe you should tell the leaders of all political parties?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 12:39 PM

The majority of people in Britain are totally disillusioned with politics and politicians and do not vote.

Utter nonsense.

"At the 2001 general election the turnout was 59.4%; in 2005 it was 61.4%; in 2010 it was 65.1%; and in 2015 it was 66.1%" From here

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 12:18 PM

"Keith does belong to a majority,"
The majority of people in Britain are totally disillusioned with politics and politicians and do not vote.
The Tories hold office with a minority of those who do vote - a minority of a minority.
Keith is in a minority - simple mathematics.
"Can't you admit even to yourselves the state that society is in?"
Yes we can - and your support of fascists like Ukip and attacking the Trades Unions, and those in need like immigrants is going to make matters a damn sight worse.
We don't need right wingers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 12:12 PM

Keith does belong to a majority, most people in the UK are "centreists"....Keith expounds a centre political philosophy, one which I sometimes disagree with, but he is civil and an excellent debater.   He cuts through all the myths which the soft left love and hold on to, even when these myths are proved to be political idiocy, like unregulated immigration from the EU.
Or the pretence that we have any real alternative to the Conservative Party, if we are determined to run a "democracy" funded by the Capitalist system.

I thought the election of a mild socialist might have changed your minds about the charade which has been Party politics for the last few decades, but no! you just fight the same old faux battles, the moth eaten ideologies which have all failed miserably.

Can't you admit even to yourselves the state that society is in?
Youth unemployment, food banks, bankrupt NHS, wage stagnation, huge numbers of immigrants driving down wages......why do you think this is happening?   Evil Tories? you must be fucking mad!   We no longer balance the bloody books, it costs money and takes time to train our people, many are mired in a benefits swamp, where work is so poorly paid that a young couple with children cannot lead a normal life.

Start looking beyond the soft left ideology, the view that we can be personally well off in an economic system in decline.

Take on board that everyone must be made to realise that our present wasteful lifestyle is completely unsustainable. This system is dead. It is an Ex System.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:43 AM

To be more specific, the two linked articles: "10 truths about Europe's migrant crisis" and "EU plans migrant quotas forcing states to 'share' burden", do not mention "unrestricted immigration" in any way shape or form - feel free to show that they do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:40 AM

Keith.. you misunderstand.. I do not dismiss your views
[there might actually be an uncomfortable area of accord between our opinions on certain issues ???]..

What I do disdain, is your tedious pernickety waffling style of debate,
your perpetually provoking petty circular arguments with your arch rivals,
which usually jams up and derails any interesting threads...

There inevitably comes a point in most threads where discernible groan inducing 'Keith discussion paralysis symptoms'
signal the end of any useful debate, and the imminent closure of that thread.... 😫