BS: Tory party conference

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:36 AM

"and I produced them."
One more time Keith;
YOU DID NOT
You produced 4 links - two of those links did not mention "unrestricted emigration" in any way shape or form - it appeared in the search page but but not in the articles themselves - an indication that you don't even read your own links.
The article that does mention "unrestricted emigration" does so to debunk it - to point out that immigration in any way, shape or form does not effect the British people adversely and also that the actual figures are grossly inflated.
The last mention is from a reader and is not part of the linked article.
All the articles say the same thing - immigration and immigrants are being used as political whipping boys.
As Steve has pointed out, "unrestricted immigration" does not exist other than in the mind of the right wing press and racist parties like Ukip.
ALL IMMIGRATION IS SUBJECT TO RESTRICTION IN BRITAIN
How about trying to prove that is not true?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:18 AM

Keith appeals to higher forces at all times. This time it's to a mythical majority he thinks he belongs to.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:18 AM

No Pfr.
I only mention it because you so airily dismiss any view of mine as being of no consequence and based on ignorance of the real world.

The real world is where most people live.
Most people hold views much closer to mine than yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 11:10 AM

"I remind you that my views are mainstream, yours a fringe minority."

.. and that'll be the stagnant toxic polluted stream where wallowing in the mire of inertia,
conformity, ignorance, and delusion is considered a proud virtue...??? 😣

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 08:02 AM

Fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:25 AM

"Back off, Backwoodsman"

Back off yourself, Steve - your record doesn't make pretty reading if we go back a few months, so don't come all holier-than-thou with me.

And, if you cared to think about it, the tone of my recent posts, plus others who have complained, together with the dozens of regulars who've voted with their feet, and the number of closed threads this past year or so, should tell you how pissed-off many members are with the Keyboard Warriors who insist on fighting the same old battles ad nauseam, and wreck every thread they join.

Yours sincerely,
"Pissed-Off of Lincolnshire".

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:25 AM

Can i put a proposition to you? something that occurs to me. can we do it without name calling?

Morally is there really any difference from pillaging the public purse for banker bonuses than doing it to assuage your consciences for what is the result of our capitalist militarism?

We all like the nice things that capitalism brings us - cheap guitars from China, cheap coal from peasant miners, cheap food from everywhere. and it gives us a tax pot of money. We need that money to educate our kids and take care of our walking wounded - all of whom are really fucked over by our culture.

just because you feel sorry for these immigrants, many of them displaced by military action our politicos have , at very least. condoned - does that give you the moral right to admit them to a place by our fireside? an expense we didn't have in mind when raised the tax.

i know how i feel. unsure. none of the name calling, self righteousness and viciousness convinces me.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 06:05 AM

Raggy I do know that Guardian articles tend to be left wing.
I was not citing them in support of my views.
I cited them because they used an expression that Jim said, "is designed to appeal tho the knuckles along the ground mob,"

Guardian readers?

I said Guardian often used it, Steve asked for examples, and I produced them.
What did I do wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:57 AM

Back off, Backwoodsman. Your gratuitously sweary rants are having precisely the opposite effect to what you claim to want, just getting people's backs up. You don't have to read what you don't want to read. Respectfully yours and ducking.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:52 AM

"You've done it non-fucking-stop for years, and to what effect?"
Nobody takes them seriously, Keith has stopped his saturation posting and his 'last wordism'
A start
I suspect we have more in common than we have disagreements - you do it your way, I'll do it mine.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:44 AM

The man is bonkers - nothing to do obviously!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 05:15 AM

For fuck's sake Jim - how many times do you have to 'draw attention to them'? You've done it non-fucking-stop for years, and to what effect?

They're winding you up! Pissing themselves laughing at you, as you try to out-argue their constant flow of circular arguments.

What a bunch of fucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:37 AM

Did you actually read the articles. For example in the first dated 10th August the reporter undermines the statements made earlier in the year by Teresa May and Philip Hammond.

No you didn't read it did you.

Quelle surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:30 AM

Keith.. the real world of living breathing politics where people get heir hands dirty and their arses kicked;
is out there.. outside your house....

I know.
That is where I am looking.
I remind you that my views are mainstream, yours a fringe minority.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:21 AM

'you' pander him with evidence of your points of argument

If only you did.
When I ask for evidence or examples you all fall silent.

Steve, you posted this,

The Guardian often refers to "unrestricted immigration."
Please provide examples of this. As you say "often", about three would suffice. The context of each instance would be essential, of course.



I provided four examples from recent months where that expression was used.
It took a few seconds, not "an afternoon."

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 04:04 AM

" you bunch of squabbling shit-for-brains."
These people have taken over thread after thread with their right-wing garbage - attacks on Muslims - on the Irish - support for Israeli terrorism - support for inaction in the Middle East - hompophobia -...... sure, if we ignore them, they will go away - 'course they will.
As far as I am, their campaign needs drawing attention to.
Very few people people take notice of their inhumanity and extremism (hasn't happened by ignoring them), but they're still at it, this little band of brothers.
We could accept these discussions as nice little fireside chats between agreeing adults - I'm more than happy to link what they have to say with what's happening in the world today.
Just received this from Ake's home territory of Scotland - while he and his friends here are telling us of the evil immigrants - this is what is happening there.
Jim Carroll
"David Cameron's Trade Union bill is a dangerous affront to democracy. It permits replacement workers, makes striking nearly impossible, and takes direct aim at the funding of the Tories' political opponents. And Scottish councils are fighting it with everything they've got.
It is truly a stirring display of solidarity. All 32 of Scotland's local authorities have promised to ignore the controversial bill when it becomes law, rendering it useless north of the border. "This is a new generation's poll tax moment," says Gary Smith, the GMB union's acting secretary in Scotland.
Our unions have made our workplaces safer and have raised the standard of living for every working Briton. They are worth defending. Imagine what would happen if councils throughout the UK showed the same defiance and togetherness as their Scottish cousins?
Join us in asking all British councils to reject the undemocratic Trade Union bill and refuse to enforce its terms.
The timing of this bill, launched less than a week after the conclusion of the Tube strike in London, is extremely cynical. It will make it next-to-impossible for workers to exercise their democratic right to job action. A union now needs approval from 50% of all eligible voters to withhold their labour, instead of just a majority of members who cast a ballot. That is a higher standard than Britain uses to elect its MPs, its mayors and its Prime Minister.
This bill also targets the funding of the Labour party -- it will force unions to get their members to "opt in" to the political levy every five years. Most unions don't have the capacity to engage in such an exercise. The right of a union to collect funds to fight for its interests and protection has always been part of its mandate. But the Tories are taking the opportunity to strip that away too --while doing nothing to limit the way corporations and hedge funds fill Conservative Party coffers.
Over 100,000 SumOfUs members are fighting this bill. And Scottish councils just gave us a new tactic. If we stand together, we can turn back this piece of dangerous legislation -- just like when union leaders stopped Margaret Thatcher's poll tax debacle in 1993.
Together, we can stop this bill. Tell your local council to ignore David Cameron's dangerous, undemocratic Trade Union Bill."

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:14 AM

Of?

Off!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 02:13 AM

And everyone else please remember - it takes two to tango.

Jim et al - by engaging with him and his cadre, you come over as the same kind of twats as they are, arguing round and round, making the same points over and over, neither listening to the other. You've managed to fuck yet another thread with your ridiculous, puerile feud. It's childish, it's boring, IT'S SHITE!

We all know who the real cunts are - just ignore the fuckers and they'll fuck of and look elsewhere for their victims.

Jesus Christ almighty, get a fucking life, you bunch of squabbling shit-for-brains.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 08:31 PM

Keith.. the real world of living breathing politics where people get heir hands dirty and their arses kicked;
is out there.. outside your house....

Not in front of a computer screen and keyboard.. inside textbooks..
or a point scoring one-upmanship game to be played out inside your head.....



...just a friendly reminder..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 08:22 PM

when Keith demands 'you' pander him with evidence of your points of argument...

so he can obsessively argue back against them...


Just say NO !!!



life's too short for all this boring petty nitpicking squabbling... 😣

[no matter how much it may appear to be dressed up in fusty grown up's academic big words....]

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 08:09 PM

Gosh, and now we are getting Geoffrey Howe eulogies in reverential tones. Well permit me to speak ill of the dead. He was a complete and utter Tory twat of the first order. Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 07:50 PM

Missed a bit
(except tories, obviously - who are, of course, loathsome parasitic vermin)
Drink to that.
Speaking of Tories
Did you know that Mrs Thatcher's mass-murderer friend General Pinochet (he who ordered the detention, torture, rape and mass murder of several thousands of his opponents - many of them students, and who she (Mrs T) described as a champion of democracy) has been found to have ordered the murder of a Chilean ambassador and an American citizen in Washington in 1976?
Washington killings
It seems that "democracy" includes international terrorism to some Tories.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 07:38 PM

"You asked Keith to supply links to "unrestricted immigration" being published in the Guardian, and he has done so. "
A - I didn't ask him - Steve did and Keith replied to Steve.
B   He supplied four links - 2 of the articles linked made no reference whatever to "unrestricted immigration" - the one that did was in reference to a reader's letter referring to a previous article and claiming it was unfair - the reference was that of the latter writer, it was not an article from the Guardian.
The fourth said, in essence that "unrestricted immigration" was a fallacy and that emigration in no way effected Britain adversely.
The "new low" here is that Keith Googled the term and didn't even bother to open them to read what they said, and a further "new low" is that you haven't bothered to read the discussion here so you haven't a clue who asked who what and, despite tripping over yourself to defend Keith (H.M.V. or what?) you haven't even opened the links Keith gave, as you were in so much of a hurry to lift him out of the klarts he has dropped himself in - more haste, lass speed laddie.
The high point of this is the only Guardian article mentioning "unrestricted immigration" says it is a figment of the media and that immigration is to the benefit of Britain - thanks for the links Keith.
Let me remind you of Keith's original point (in case you didn't read that either
"The Guardian often refers to "unrestricted immigration.It is not an anti immigrant or derogatory term."
Presumably Keith made his point to show that "unrestricted immigration is a derogatory term."
His links deride the term say that immigration is not harmful to Britain.
Is there a literacy course at your local college (or in Hertford?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 07:35 PM

Jim asked Keith no such thing.

Totally agreed, achmelvich.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 06:30 PM

how come this thread started about the tory party conference and has descended into squabbling about numbers and 'quality' of folk coming to live in our islands. come on, guys, people are just people and most are great.

(except tories, obviously - who are, of course, loathsome parasitic vermin)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:50 PM

Jim, you have hit a new low, You asked Keith to supply links to "unrestricted immigration" being published in the Guardian, and he has done so.   It is a recognised expression to define " free movement of labour" within the EU.

What you have done is link to articles supporting "free movement", which is not what you asked for.

Very disingenuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:13 PM

Typical Keith, Jim. At least I kept him off the streets for an afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:00 PM

Keith
Your Links:
DOESN'T MENTIIO N THE TERM BUT BLOWS YOUR ARGUMENT OUT OF THE WATER

ONTRADICTS YOUR ARGUMENTS TOTALLY

DOESN'T MENTION THE TERM BUT KICKS YOUR ARGUMENTS INTO TOUCH

MENTIONED IN A READERS LETTER ONLY

All the lings links prove your arguments are shit

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 03:24 PM

okay blame it on the various governments....

the fact remains we aren't taking very good care of the people already here. perhaps we need to sort that out before we add a load more people that we can't care for.

i understand you all feel strongly that we can easily afford to take care of more people. i understand you think anyone who disagrees with you is a little Englander of little account and small intelligence.

however let me assure you, people at the bottom of the pile in this society - they have it very tough....their should be prioritised. before bankers bonuses. maybe before these people who aren't citizens of this country.

i suppose that is the real debate ...whether you think their needs should go to the top of the pile. i can see you have your opinions. all that i would ask is that you accept there are shades of quite thoughtful opinion on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 01:22 PM

Steve,
Please provide examples of this. As you say "often", about three would suffice. The context of each instance would be essential, of course.

About 258,000 results (0.64 seconds)
Search Results

www.theguardian.com › World › UK News › Immigration and asylum
10 Aug 2015 - Quiz: do you know your European migration facts? ..... This article seems quite unfair in its bias toward unrestricted immigration. No one doubts ...
UK gains £20bn from European migrants, UCL economists ...

www.theguardian.com › World › UK News › Immigration and asylum
5 Nov 2014 - Tax payments by European migrants far outweigh welfare •
Arrivals are better educated ... Photograph: Gary Calton for the Guardian ... on immigration in which the contribution of unrestricted migration from within the EU has ...
EU plan for migrant quotas hits rocks after France and Spain ...

www.theguardian.com › World › Migration
19 May 2015 - An EU plan to impose migrant quotas on member states ... "It's out of the question to have immigrant quotas because we have ... "You can't resettle or relocate someone from one member state to another," one EU diplomat told the Guardian. ..... I'm sure that the people opposing unrestricted immigration or ...
The UK's rock-bottom wages and immigration from within ...

www.theguardian.com › World › Pay
1 Feb 2015 - Photograph: David Levene for the Guardian ... of the Guardian that unrestricted immigration from within the EU to the lower rungs of the service ...

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 12:06 PM

Indelicately put, though point well made! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 11:58 AM

VERSION 1:

"Our women - don't forget about them taking our women!!"

Yes.. those bloody yanks with their flash uniforms, chocolate, chewing gum, and nylons...


VERSION 2:

"Our women - don't forget about them taking our women!!"

they're bloody welcome to them !!!

..though why they'd want to when their E European girls are much more prettier and fitter
than most of our local pudding faced fat lump chav trollops... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 07:51 AM

You are right - of course.
take us over and occupy all our houses and steal our job"
Our women - don't forget about them taking our women!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 07:08 AM

In one sense, Jim, migration is highly restricted even within the EU. Most people don't want to up sticks and leave the country of their birth and their families behind. That is a massive brake on the movement of people. The way the Ukippers and all the other other little Englanders talk (or, in one case here, a little Scotlander) you'd think that the whole continent was charging gleefully towards our borders to take us over and occupy all our houses and steal our jobs and live on benefits and probably eat our babies into the bargain. Well life's not like that. The numbers of people on the move will rise and fall according to economic and political vicissitudes, just like they've always done down the centuries. People in the end regulate themselves. If numbers hit a high for a few years, we either moan and groan about it and try to turn everyone into little racists (the UKIP and Tory right method) or, as we've always done in the past, we adapt.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 06:54 AM

The Guardian often refers to "unrestricted immigration."

Please provide examples of this. As you say "often", about three would suffice. The context of each instance would be essential, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 05:29 AM

"It is not an anti immigrant or derogatory term."
Yes it is - all immigration is restricted in one form or another unless you are part of the E.U.
Britain seems to want to have its cake and eat it as far as Europe is concerned - take the benefits and reject the responsibilities - hence the on-going "shall we-shan't we" blushing bride act
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:59 AM

"while we are struggling to house and care for our own citizens."
Which is down to Government policy and the predatory nature of employers - nothing to do with immigration.
Employers will use immigrants to drive wages down (with the support of politicians) and politicians, in their turn, will use immigration to win elections - Ukip for instance, has no other policy but get out of Europe and control immigration.
Stopping immigration is not going to change the unemployment situation one iota.
You have raised the "changing our way of life" situation more than once - it certainly is a major feature in your Ukip Party policy - if that is your concern, why not have the honesty to raise it here?   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 04:38 AM

Jim,
no sign of "unrestricted, which is designed to appeal tho the knuckles along the ground mob,

The Guardian often refers to "unrestricted immigration."
It is not an anti immigrant or derogatory term.
Immigration from EU is unrestricted.
That is a neutral true fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 03:53 AM

Ach melvich, nobody cares where immigrants COME from and I am sure there are good and bad amongst their number.
The problem is the volume of immigrants who are arriving here annually, while we are struggling to house and care for our own citizens.

As I have said before, we need to be training our own young people in how to run our public services etc.....if we continue to rely on cheap economic migrants the situation will never improve.

I don't like the idea of Eastern Europeans living in third world poverty, but if immigration continues at the present rate, the UK will soon assume third world status for the poorest section of our working population.

This is a political issue of the greatest importance, not an issue of morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 03:11 AM

"the vast majority of us are decent folk just trying to get through life while not causing any harm to anyone else and helping each other when they can. all this immigrant talk is just bullshit"
Exactly
Perhaps it's time that some of the people who devote so much time and energy to keeping them out tell us why it's so important instead of hiding behind the old arguments of 'taking our jobs and destroying our way of life'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:58 PM

.. the local indigenous half wit pisshead / junkie scum far outnumber the decent 'immigrant' family neighbours
on our street in the centre of a fair sized town in SW England... 😠

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:36 PM

always i find that with whatever group of people i meet, some are absolute saints, some are total bastards but the vast majority of us are decent folk just trying to get through life while not causing any harm to anyone else and helping each other when they can. all this immigrant talk is just bullshit - who gives a damn where anyone comes from as long as they are not in the total bastard group?
get a grip people -peace and love, pete

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 04:20 PM

Yes, I do promise, ake. Wonder why none of these people you have contacted privately have said as much.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 02:46 PM

"Can you help us out with an unemotive word that describes the fact that there are no restrictions on immigration from EU?"
How about simple immigration
Far from Blair removing restrictions, he attempted quality control for the reason Ake stated
Don't agree with his doing so, but that's me.
The trem "unprecedented" was the one used in articles such as the one I put up (no sign of "unrestricted, which is designed to appeal tho the knuckles along the ground mob, like yourself - a creation of the Tory bum-wipe press)   
Do you claim that the experiences I described in the building trade weren't accurate?
Two is too much for some people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 02:35 PM

emotive terms like "unrestricted"

Fair comment Jim.
Can you help us out with an unemotive word that describes the fact that there are no restrictions on immigration from EU?

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 02:00 PM

Dum de dum de fucking dum!

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 01:44 PM

wasn't Powell the guy that started the whole immigration business back in the mid fifties with campaigns to recruit for 'the mother country'.

I remember reading an article by him where he reckoned the silences in Beethoven were more important than the music.

an odd cove.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 01:22 PM

"There you go again Jim!"
Linking Ake's ongoing support of Farrago the Fascist with emotive terms like "unrestricted" then singling out Eastern Europeans as a target says everything that need to be said as far as I'm concerned.
Immigration came with being in Europe - I knew plenty of British building workers who headed East when it took their fancy.
Blair's policy was far from "unrestricted" - he attempted to manipulate and control the flow of immigrants into Britain, far more than I believe necessary - "unrestricted" is a right-wing political slogan - the document I linked refers to the number of European immigrants as "unprecedented", which is more in line with what it was - it hadn't happened before - a far cry from "unrestricted".
I worked with Eastern Europeans throughout the housing boom when it was very difficult to get painters, plasterers, carpenters and other tradesmen - they were efficient, reliable and by and large good tradesmen - and they were around when they were needed most.
I get from Ake's silence that he is a supporter of the late and very unlamented MR Powell - which makes him what he is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 01:11 PM

Dave, do you really promise not to show me any more of your "compassion"?.....I really don't think I could handle much more of it.

Allan and others I have contacted privately seemed to be aware of your implications.

Subject: RE: BS: Tory party conference
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 12:45 PM

Seems a bit racist to single out one particular group of migrants - why am I not surprised?

There you go again Jim!
They were singled out because there is unlimited immigration from EU.
All other immigration has some regulation.
That was the issue under discussion.