BS: Listen up!

Subject: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 01:19 PM

to this wonderful message.

Many on here should take note :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 01:53 PM

Am I allowed to mock that opinion?

I personally prefer the couplet from, if I recall, the poem King John and the Bishop (be fair, I last read it some 50 years ago):

"Have you never seen it writ
A fool may teach a wise man wit?"

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 02:16 PM

You certainly are cousin McG. But is it demonstrably nonsense? I suppose even the esteemed Professor Cox may get it wrong :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 02:26 PM

I was going to add a *smile* after my comment, but hoped it would be obvious!

But more seriously I think that being too ready to mock others views risks missing something. After all, most people believe things for some reason, however suspect and tenuous. And those of long enough tooth may remember De Bono's "po" which was all about using absurd and false statements as a source of inspiration for 'exploration/research/thoughts about 'true' topics.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 03:59 PM

I did put a smiley on but I suspect many will still take it seriously :-(

The salient point is 'particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense', in case anyone misses that bit!

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 04:24 PM

But... the statement that it's ok to ignore or make fun of opinions that are "demonstrably nonsense" is itself very close to a tautology! It is, at a minimum, trivial. Of course we are free to ignore and ridicule nonsense :>). But 'we' implicitly includes everyone... not just those who agree with our personal definition of nonsense. We are having our political fights right now that show this very clearly... *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 05:09 PM

""The truth about idiocy... is that it is at once an ethical and cognitive failure... The Greek idios means 'private,' and idiotes means a private person, as opposed to a person in their public role... This still comes across in the related English words 'idiomatic' and 'idiosyncratic,' which similarly suggest self-enclosure... At the bottom, the idiot is a solipsist."" 
― Matthew B. Crawford

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 05:23 PM

Of course we are free to ignore and ridicule nonsense :>). But 'we' implicitly includes everyone... not just those who agree with our personal definition of nonsense.

Absolutely, Bill. Trouble is that a lot of people think that it is not OK to ridicule anything at all, which is also blatant nonsense. It is always extremes that cause conflicts and there is, usually, a middle ground.


Ed. Outside a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, it is too dark to read.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 05:32 PM

"The average dog is a nicer person than the average person." 
― Andy Rooney

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 05:38 PM

Not sure, Dave. There is a difference between deciding something is ridiculous and ridiculing it. Especially as in practice you can rarely ridicule something without ridiculing someone. You should be clear about your motives for doing that, and if it is basically to feel superior it doesn't seem a good one to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 06:30 PM

Pothole opinion

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 09:23 PM

You know what they say about opinions and arseholes. The arsehole, however, have a good and very useful function.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Nov 15 - 11:34 PM

"Especially as in practice you can rarely ridicule something without ridiculing someone.
You should be clear about your motives for doing that, and if it is basically to feel superior it doesn't seem a good one to me."

I don't take the piss out of people to make myself feel superior..

far from it.....

i take the piss out of annoying egotists and pompous pillocks who consider themselves to be superior...

.. though I suppose they do tend to expose themselves to ridicule - with or without my piss taking assistance....😜

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 03:54 AM

"Have you never seen it writ
A fool may teach a wise man wit?"

As I always say - "there is always someone who knows something you don't" and knowledge doesn't measure the intellect of the repository!

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 04:10 AM

One mans reason is another mans rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 05:21 AM

Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is fruit.

Wisdom is not serving it with cream...

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 05:24 AM

oh I don't know about that Dave I rather like my home made Cream of Tomato Soup

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 05:29 AM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 12:55 PM

If an opinion is "demonstrably nonsense" then it could not be supported with evidence.
Actual facts.
That is why I never post an opinion here that I can not defend.

Unlike you Dave.
You said this, "I have been told that I am not entitled to an opinion unless I can back that opinion up with facts. I do not believe this to be true."

My view is that you are entitled to have an opinion that is just a whim based on nothing, but you are not entitled to have it taken seriously.
I think that is what Cox is telling you too.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:06 PM

Cox is a scientist - he has spent years in a secret laboratory experimenting with opinions;
and after many failures, dead ends, mutated lab assistants, and at least one near fatal explosion
can now demonstrate that one informed opinion is worth 10.7654321 idiots opinions.... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:07 PM

How does one become entitled to an opinion? Surely one would have to have knowledge of a subject in order to pass on an opinion. Googlimg and going to Wikipedia do not make one knowledgeable, they provide information, one must have a good deal of knowledge in order to apply those facts to the subject. Many people seem able to spout facts without ever being able to interpret facts.
Most sensible people really not likely to engage in debate with someone who clearly knows nothing of the subject being debated.Ergo, people who know nothing about a subject are not entitled to an opinion, are they ?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:12 PM

Still not about you, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: gnu
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:12 PM

It's all talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:32 PM

That is the whole point, HiLo. They are entitled to an opinion and others are entitled to ignore or ridicule it.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 01:39 PM

How did they get entitled to it is my question.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 03:36 PM

I know how I came by mine on some things. Probably forgot how I came by many. Some of my old ones have changed over the years and some new ones have arrived. I cannot speak for anyone else but I do know I am entitled to them and I am not obliged to explain any of them. Just as you are entitled to ignore them should you so decide. It's not really difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 06:45 PM

given dave the gnome's long harassment of liz. I think he should take note. but these bigots think they have the sun shining out of their fundament.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Nov 15 - 06:53 PM

Simple paraphrase- you have the right to your opinion, faith or belief, and to speak it*, but respect for your belief is not a right. It has to be earned.

*Provided or course it's not shouting FIRE in a crowded theatre.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 02:47 AM

Good summary, Paul.

Olliphant. Given your long history of demonstrably talking through your arse I think it it tome to put the principles of the thread into practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 04:20 AM

Daniel Barenboim said to his Arab-Israeli orchestra: "You have the right to express any opinion you like, but you have the right not to listen to others". If thine eye offends thee, cut it out!

But as Pete Waterman said, and he wasn't the first, "opinions are like arseholes - everyone has one".
And like their aperture it is a fundamental right but not necessary to always share it!
That is the opinion I wish to share with you...............




I'll get my lab coat.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Nov 15 - 08:57 PM

The difference between a bird with one wing, and a bird with two . . .


It's all a matter of a pinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 08:56 AM

Having what you consider as "fact" on your side is no reason to demand respect. After all, just because you consider it a fact doesn't make it so.

Take the case of sky fairies, Jesus etc. There is no evidence for the fantasy surrounding religious faith yet impressionable people expect intelligent rational people to respect their stance, creed and statements. Some people glorify the wicked stupidity that the WW1 soldiers were subjected to, yet claim their gullibility as backed up with fact.

I'll poke fun at anybody who doesn't have a certificate signed by a psychiatrist who purposely moves subjective opinion into what they see as objective fact in order to impress their shallow little world on others.

Not that this thread is about him of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 10:18 AM

The Musket's Return. :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 10:29 AM

...the wicked stupidity that the WW1 soldiers were subjected to, yet claim their gullibility as backed up with fact.

For myself, I am prepared to accept the findings of the historians.
Others might think they have some superior knowledge.

Take the case of sky fairies, Jesus etc.

You consider all believers to be of inferior intellect to yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 10:43 AM

Good question. Indulging in fantasy is a vital human endeavour. Permanently taking on fantasy whilst ditching evidence and reason does raise questions about the intellect, I reckon, that are hard to avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 11:35 AM

You do consider all believers to be of inferior intellect to yourself!
And, what "ditching evidence" do you imagine they indulge in?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 12:01 PM

I suppose it is facts that make Carson a GOP candidate. To him, pyramids were grain silos and it says so in his bible.

Yeah, interesting things, facts. They can drive you to distraction too. I knew a lad in London called Bruce who ended up with many physiological conditions because his father's "facts" about his lifestyle screwed with his mind.

Facts.

They tend to be spouted in defence of stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 12:03 PM

No, Keith. I said, in pretty clear English, that I reckoned that it does raise questions that are hard to avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 12:56 PM

Most folks have opinions, some strong, some others not so much.

Most folks are either somewhat judgemental, or strongly so.

At times, a lesson or two can be learned from most folks, if you have an open mind. But, I have learned to be cautious of the extremely opinionated, strongly judgemental varieties.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 01:02 PM

So please clarify Steve.
Are all people of faith intellectually challenged as your post suggested.
Are all people of faith intellectually inferior to you, or not?

it does raise questions about the intellect, I reckon, that are hard to avoid.
What questions exactly Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 01:11 PM

FWIW I think some people are complete tossers. That is my opinion and anyone is welcome to ignore it. The other side of that coin is that while I may consider them tossers, I do not believe for that it makes me any better or worse than them. Intellectually or otherwise. It is an opinion, which is what this thread is all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 01:15 PM

Steve is a person of faith keith, in fact greater than mine . He has faith that everything can come from absolutely nothing and no one.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 01:59 PM

He has faith that everything can come from absolutely nothing and no one.

No he doesn't, he hasn't the foggiest idea where "everything" came from. And neither do you or anybody else.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 02:05 PM

We all have "faith" even Steve and his guest friends.

These people have an unshakable faith in an ideology which simply does not work, has never worked, and has no facts whatsoever to back up it's supposed efficacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 02:08 PM

I have faith that one day the blindfolds will fall from our eyes and that people will at last grasp reality, and what life really means.

But time is running out....for all of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 02:38 PM

Oh by the cringe. Ake coming over all mystical with overtones of homespun faux philosophy. A perfect example of what the initial link referred to.

Just in my opinion of course

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 03:43 PM

"I am surrounded by priests who repeat incessantly that their kingdom is not of this world, and yet they lay hands on everything they can get." 
― Napoléon Bonaparte

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 03:52 PM

"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!" 
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 04:10 PM

Well done, Ed. Someone with a sense of humour :-)

Particularly like the last one BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Nov 15 - 06:54 PM

Well cheers guys for analysing me so psychologically. In fact, I don't believe anything. Nobody tells me what yet believe. I require evidence for anything I'm told that I haven't already worked out for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 03:11 AM

The problem is that when you have an imaginary friend, you feel the need to lower the intellect of others down to your own. Hence saying a refusal to believe is in itself a faith position.

It isn't. It is just covering their own embarrassment at an intellectual level.

Today, they will wear poppies and blazers, thanking their Sky Fairy for its love and understanding in the wars that killed millions.

It's bad enough trying to reconcile fairy stories written a couple of thousand years ago but I have enough problems staring in disbelief at their hypocrisy and sanctimonious ritual.

I'm with the late Harry Patch on this one. And he did have a Christian faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 06:02 AM

♫♫Here we go round the mulberry bush
The mulberry bush, the mulberry bush
Here we go round the mulberry bush
So early in the morning♫♫

and right thru the bloody afternoon & evening too.
Or if preferred

♩♩Round and round goes the merry-go-round♩♩


Isn't there maybe somewhere another sort of bush or another merry-go-round we can go round&round&round&....

≈M≈

Not but what itza lorralorralorra fun or would it take over the forum with quite such constant inevitability to ∞∞∞ & beyond

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 06:41 AM

I can understand that ridiculing or ignoring opinions is quite frightening to one who made a good part of his living on venturing them, Michael, but do you really think that just over 50 posts in taking over the forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 08:24 AM

Surely you see that it's the number of threads on this topic, not the number of posts within any particular one of them...

We have poor old 7*** Pete v everybody else about ten times a week with matinées on Thursdays & Saturdays sfaics...

Still: as my late wife Valerie would always remark "Play your games, dears!"

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 08:26 AM

... & I'll often join in myself on the rationalist side, for that matter. Just a question of mood, dontchano!

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,😇
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 10:25 AM

christians and atheists can both be borish bothersome blockheads - that's my opinion.....

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 10:29 AM

But this thread has nothing to do with Christians and atheists. It is about opinions. The fact that it is likely to get hijacked by certain parties does not make it any the less so does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,😇
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 10:43 AM

one does not need faith in a god to be a sanctimonious obnoxious bellend - that's another of my 'imho's.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 10:46 AM

I have every faith in sanctimonious obnoxious bellends!

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,😇
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 10:56 AM

Wasn't aiming at you Dave - mudcat is really slow and freezing and crashing again,
so I was not aware of your cross posts whilst I was languishing in limbo mudcat purgatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 11:26 AM

It honestly doesn't matter if you were, although I do believe you. This thread is about choosing to ignore or ridicule opinions you find risible. This is what people (particularly sanctimonious obnoxious bellends) cannot seem to grasp. They are entitled to their opinions and I am entitled to take the piss. Likewise they can take the piss out of mine. The only difference being I really could not give a shit about theirs while they seem to get in a tizzy over mine. I suppose i must be doing something right ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 11:39 AM

I still think you need to be able to support an opinion if you expect it to be taken seriously.
Otherwise it is just a pointless whim from an empty head.

I also think you should be able to find and express fault with an opinion you choose to ridicule and mock.
Otherwise that too is just expressing pointless, empty head whims.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 11:52 AM

That is your opinion. It is not everyone's.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,😇
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 12:00 PM

Dave, yes it is easier to prove the existence of sanctimonious obnoxious bellends.
So why not elevate them to the holier than thou deities they believe themselves to be
and establish a religion to worship them ????

That'd be worth a few chuckles behind their backs.

The Mighty God Teribus does indeed sound quite awesome and catchy ?

Behold the agonising wrath of of akenaton, yep there's another one sounds doable.

Keith the dreaded king of.. ummm.. err... this one might need some marketing team brainstorming.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 12:28 PM

We could take lessons from Michael Moorcock's
History of the Runestaff. Although I am not sure it qualifies as a real history book...

Maybe Keyfa of the Hearts ford, the whining god?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,Peter from seven stars link
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 12:58 PM

Happy to oblige, lion , though I hope you noticed that I am only responding to your fellow ( sometimes excitable ! ) atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 01:15 PM

I have it, I think, there could be one true god named Akekeitibus.

Lets start a new religion (it's been done before) and we could write their words of wisdom down in a mighty tome.

I've had a pint so this might need a bit of thinking about before I go any further.....

I think there might be some mileage in this and as WE would start it WE can get the posh frocks, gold ..........and all the money

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 01:34 PM

If you're serious about starting a new religion, a word in your shell-like. NEVER trust Dave with bingo balls. He kept the last lot in a shoe box that went soggy in the rain, dropped them in a car park and lost two fat ladies and clickety-click. We nearly had a riot on our hands in Eccles when six members of the Women's Institute found out that they'd paid for cards with no chance of winning. I'm still reeling from the fallout. Jesus never had this bloody trouble with the Holy Ghost I can tell you.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 02:03 PM

Just don't ask Steve about photocopying the same card so everyone shouted 'house' at the same time. But Musket's dalliance with Lilo Lil will probably be forgotten. In time...

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 02:14 PM

That is your opinion. It is not everyone's.

I think most people ignore opinions with nothing behind them.
Is there anything worse than being a captive audience for an opinionated but ignorant windbag?
We have all been there!
I think most people pay more attention to an opinion that can be backed with some actual knowledge.
Just my opinion of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 03:05 PM

Absolutely, Keith. Just your opinion. So why get upset when people disagree with it? It is, in the great scheme of things, pretty low on the agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 03:11 PM

"Just don't ask Steve about photocopying the same card so everyone shouted 'house' at the same time. But Musket's dalliance with Lilo Lil will probably be forgotten. In time..."

Well bugger me sideways with a bent banana if this isn't a bad dream coming back. The only saving grace is, last I heard anyway, that Betty Swollox was running a bordello in Ashton-under-Lyne, so at least she's safely out of the way. Don't any of you people realise how bloody hard it is to run a soddin' trinity??

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 03:21 PM

They used to have a folk club in the Railway Buffet Bar at Stalybridge. Pretty near Ashon-under-Lyne. Don't know if it is still going but if Betty is nearby we would do well to avoid it.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 03:27 PM

Shit. Good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 03:52 PM

I don't know, you get some real philosophical insights here on Mucdat. Too may people love each other in this world, and we ought to stop some of them doing it. Max Hastings is a leading historian. The Koran is, every word of it, literally true and if any evidence seems to point to the contrary, so much the worse for the evidence (have I got the right book there? There's so may I get confused. Perhaps I meant the Book of Moron). Bert Lloyd made it all up. Folk music is an activity performed only by aged bearded besweatered Guardian- reading communist teachers. Before I knew all this I was an innocent- we were wrong, we were wrong, but so young, and so very much in lo-ho-hove.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 05:28 PM

"A blah is a terrible thing to waste!" 
― Nigel Tomm

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 05:29 PM

"Through the years, I have learned there is no harm in charging oneself up with delusions between moments of valid inspiration." 
― Steve Martin, Born Standing Up: A Comic's Life

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 06:04 PM

I still think you need to be able to support an opinion if you expect it to be taken seriously.

Coming from you, Professor, that may be the funniest line I've read all year, your live/dead/published/bookstore-inhabiting historians aside.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 06:18 PM

Is there anything worse than being a captive audience for an opinionated but ignorant windbag?

Although this is pretty amusing, too, considering the source.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 06:37 PM

Greg, behave. You know full well that Keith doesn't do irony. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,😇
Date: 08 Nov 15 - 07:02 PM

The level of irony in this thread is so far off the scale it is endangering the existence of our known universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 04:41 AM

Take the case of sky fairies, Jesus etc. There is no evidence for the fantasy surrounding religious faith

I was told and I see the evidence. It is well documented that a "political" agitator existed during the Roman occupation of the area we call Palestine/Israel. A man of about 30 called Jesus.
However the significance you put on the legacy he left is another thing altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 04:49 AM

Thee is no clinching reference to Jesus in any Roman literature and not very many non-clinching ones either. Which is strikingly odd, considering how much of that literature there is.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 04:53 AM

Absolutely, Keith. Just your opinion. So why get upset when people disagree with it?

I actually enjoy people disagreeing and arguing against my opinions Dave.
What I object to is people who can't dispute anything I say, but mock and ridicule anyway.

Steve and Greg, you mock but you can not produce a single example of me arguing an opinion based on no evidence because I do not do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:16 AM

Where is the evidence for the existence of god.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:23 AM

But you have often said, Keith, that it is not your opinion but that of some 'expert' that you have read. How can you enjoy people arguing against your opinions when, on your own admission, it is not even your own opinion? I think it may just be the disagreeing and arguing bit that you enjoy. Trouble is you do not enjoy people pointing out your inconsistencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:27 AM

"What I object to is people who can't dispute anything I say,"
Just about everybody disputes what you say Keith, and more often than not, produce mountains of evidence to show you are wrong - which you usually ignore.
You now appear to have developed the habit of suggesting that nobody disputes what you say - tsk, tsk!!
That''' ear as thin as all the others.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:30 AM

Everything you assert has to be checked for veracity, Keith. You were called out on a Geoffrey Wheatcroft misquote (yet, after hundreds of posts on the thread, you still didn't admit your glaring error), and you made an unjustified assertion about creationism in UK schools just the other day., to take two examples. Not an honest broker, Keith that is what annoys people. You have a bad reputation I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,Beetlebeard
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:52 AM

Funnily enough, I was speaking with the original Musket at a folk club near Doncaster recently. He will be bemused to see the new religion he set up with Steve Shaw and Dave the Gnome is still cropping up.

This is how religions start. I must buy shares.

On a more serious note, he said he stopped poking pigs with sticks to get a reaction when it became abundantly clear that homophobia was not just tolerated but encouraged by the American moderation regime. He stopped posting in defence of another Musket who some creatures think it clever to hate for existing.

I read this nonsense as a reader not an author and rarely post anything, but can't stop chuckling at this thread. It brings out all the stereotypes.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:59 AM

We're still looking for a gospel writer if you're interested, Beetlebeard. Experience in writing fiction would be an advantage...

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:04 AM

Ah! so now you admit to being part of "TM".....that's what Keith and I have been asserting for months.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:05 AM

Dave, But you have often said, Keith, that it is not your opinion but that of some 'expert' that you have read.

Not true. I can only remember being in that position once, and many years ago.

Rag,
Where is the evidence for the existence of god.

There is none either way, and I have never argued it.

Steve,
I quoted Wheatcroft in full the first time and did not need to repeat it all everytime.
On creation as science in schools I said "Not in UK" instead of "Not legally in UK."
Sorry, but I assumed, rightly, that all UK contributors understood that anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:07 AM

As "TM" seem to be crawling back under various guises, you better have a care who you associate with!   or you two could be history....Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:31 AM

You assumed wrongly, actually, Keith. I'm a UK contributor and I didn't see it that way.


Has anyone got a clue as to what akenaton is on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:43 AM

I have no idea, Steve.

Keith. So the position you hold on, oooh let me see, the Irish famine for instance, is your own opinion. Even though you readily admit you know nothing about it? Even though every point you argue with Jim about on that subject is, in fact, not your opinion but that of someone else? To name just one...

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 06:53 AM

Sorry Dave it's really I believe this but it's not my opinion

or is it ....... it's my opinion but I don't believe it

or is it ........... I don't have an opinion but this is what I believe somebody said

or is it............ somebody said it but I don't believe them

or is it........... I believe what I think someone said

or is it you're all liars so YOU LOSE!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 07:17 AM

Dave the Gnome - Date: 09 Nov 15 - 05:23 AM

But you have often said, Keith, that it is not your opinion but that of some 'expert' that you have read. How can you enjoy people arguing against your opinions when, on your own admission, it is not even your own opinion? I think it may just be the disagreeing and arguing bit that you enjoy. Trouble is you do not enjoy people pointing out your inconsistencies.

Not even remotely accurate Gnome.

On at least two topics Keith A has provided quotes of opinions of others, who could be considered to be expert or at least knowledgeable in their particular field and put those points up for discussion - the likes of the Musktwats, yourself, Raggy and Greg then assigned the opinions stated to Keith A himself and then proceeded to take him to task over them with your usual childishness - after all none of you could refute or counter any of the factual information given. IIRC Dave wasn't it you that stated that you form opinions based on things that you know to be untrue, or was it that you formed them not caring whether or not they were true, and that you do not feel you are required to justify them. You lot really are a total waste of space.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 07:33 AM

No, you don't 'RC', Teriballs, but you never let that stop you from making things up when you can't find anything better. The only point you were right about was not having to justify anything to the likes of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 08:04 AM

Dave, my only expressed opinion on the Irish famine was that historians are divided on the issue of blame.
I supported that expressed opinion by quoting some historians with differing views.

So the position you hold on, oooh let me see, the Irish famine for instance, is your own opinion.

Yes. My position is that historians differ on the issue of blame, and I made my position clear repeatedly at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 08:28 AM

Do I really have to quote from Lewis Carroll everytime you start juggling what was said versus what was meant? I'll just use a snippet this time.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 09:06 AM

after all none of you could refute or counter any of the factual information given.

Sorry, T-Bird, but:

1. No "factual information" was given, as per usual.

2. There is no point in refutation which will simply be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 09:31 AM

"Yes. My position is that historians differ on the issue of blame,"
A total distortion of your own arguments.
You argued that the Irish people had been brainwashed from childhood to hate the English and blame them for the Famine, when in fact the question of blame was abandoned totally in the mid- thirties and was replaced by revisionism which no longer discussed the question of blame.
You went on to claim that the revisionist view dominated historical studies of the Famine, when in fact those views were overturned with the flood of new interest at the time of the 150th anniversary which put right the fact that for 150 years there had been very little discussion on who was to blame and there was only one book on the subject (written by an Englishwoman who partially blamed Britain for the outcome).
Why on earth do you do this and deny what you havce written publicly - self flagellation maybe!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,Beetlebeard
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 09:54 AM

So, This gospel writing gig.   How much like? Do I get the 75 year copyright clause? Do I get an entertaining budget for buying Musket beer to get his stories into our holy book? The more he drinks, the more like a gospel they sound. He comes to Donny Strummers most months. Isn't Dave the Gnome here in Yorksheer? Come and join us for beer and trad, last Monday of the month, Donny Ukrainian Club.

According to my Missus, I'm alive, eminent and have had items published in tabloid newspapers so could write gospels just like that Hastings chap. Oh, and I wore a poppy. The British Legion has cheap beer but getting a pint without a poppy this time of year is more trouble than it's worth. Still, no different to church goers who go for tradition and community rather than fairy stories.

A word in Dave the Gnome's shell like. Starting threads beyond the mental capacity of the usual suspects is fraught with disappointment. Quoting Professor Brian Cox to an audience of superstition and political naivety will never get you a Nobel prize.

On the bright side, you'd be surprised how many of us find these threads funny without contributing. I doubt I shall weigh in too often. I use the more useful features of Mudfat for music research though.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:25 AM

Jim, take a look.
My only position was that historians did not agree on the issue of blame.
Not just an opinion, but demonstrable fact.

One historian quoted by both of us said that the Irish government instructed teachers to teach a version of the truth that the academic community thought wrong. That is a description of brainwashing.

She also said that the revisionist view dominated historical studies of the Famine.

We discussed her views, but my only case was that historians differ on blame, and they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:38 AM

Big place, Yorkshire, and I am only a little Gnome. Still, I suppose I could ditch the beer and drive to Donny...

Nah, just thought about it and decided I need to come up with a better plan :-)

One of my local folk clubs is in a Ukrainian club as well. Not been yet but keep promising myself. Very accommodating the Ukrainians. If I tell them I am a Cossack do I get preferential rates?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:49 AM

"My only position was that historians did not agree on the issue of blame."
Are you honestly claiming that you never suggested that Irish children were brainwashed - a very, very distasteful suggestion and totally untrue (surely you are not now going to claim that an "expert/historian' told you to say ir after what you have just claimed?)
Everything I described is exactly as you have argued - everything - a little difficult to deny.
Your every argument has been that Britain never did nuffin' at no time - virtually on every subject where the question is raised.
If that was it and you left it there, we could regard you as a somewhat extreme patriot, and leave it there, but you go to such lengths to prove this is the case and the rest of the world is wrong
Really hard to walk away from this - "brainwashed children" did it for me in this case, I'm afraid
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 10:56 AM

When Keith and Jim get going at each other it's like mudcat's equivalent of Groundhog Day.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 11:23 AM

You get five loaves and two fishes for writing twenty chapters. Dave's good at emulating biblical methods so he'll bulk that up for you (we've had a temporary cashflow issue ever since Eccles WI successfully sued us, you see. I always suspected that the buggers were Chr*stians). Don't worry about copyright as no-one will ever want to quote you anyway. I forgot to mention that there's a clause in your contract requiring you to insert at least two puzzling inconsistencies into each chapter. I've asked Keith to help you with that but he's apparently a bit tied up with UKIP at the moment...

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 01:59 PM

I forgot to mention that there's a clause in your contract requiring you to insert at least two puzzling inconsistencies into each chapter.

Don't tell Steve but when I was doing it I just cut and pasted a load of Mudcat posts...

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 02:21 PM

I'm going to have to ask you to show me your scrolls, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 02:26 PM

I'll have you know I have not had the scrolls since the doctor prescribed penicillin...

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 02:34 PM

You should have asked me, Dave. I can work miracles, you know. Well I haven't actually tried yet but my job description says I can...

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 15 - 03:05 PM

Well, the penicillin was quite miraculous. Reminds me of an old joke.

Deeply religious bloke is trapped in his house after a flood. Local farmer comes by and offers him a lift on his tractor as it can still get through. "No thanks," the man replied, "God will save me." A bit later, the water still rising, he is in his bedroom when a man in a boat comes by and offers him a ride. "No thanks," the man replied, "God will save me." Later still he is on the roof and the rescue helicopter comes by to offer him safety. "No thanks," the man replied, "God will save me.". Well, he was swept to his death and when he reached heaven he asked God why he did not save him. "Well, I sent you a tractor, a boat and a helicopter. What else do you want?"

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 12:02 AM

Jim,
Are you honestly claiming that you never suggested that Irish children were brainwashed

What Christine Kinealy described was brainwashing, and we both referred to what she wrote, but I kept saying at the time that my only case was that historians differ.
Look it up.
I will pm you quotes of me saying that with dates and times.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 12:15 AM

Keith, good idea !

Why don't you and Jim conduct your courtship entirely by PM,
and the pair of you spare the rest of us your incessant repetitive spamming of threads ?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 12:18 AM

I have tried to do that.
Previously he has just posted my pm and replied on the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,Beetlebeard
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 02:51 AM

Fair enough, but always welcome. I can walk there (but not always back.)

Loaves and fishes are ok, but I would like a company chariot, time and a half for weekends and frisked on the way in and out of the office like my lad gets at the local Amazon warehouse. If your HR is anything like my last employer, it would be only personal fun I get these days. Perhaps that's why it's no longer my employer. That and retirement.

I'm at Tickhill tonight. If your old mate is there, and he often is, I'll tell him there has been a religious revival on this thread and his acolytes await the second coming. (Though these days, if it were me, they'd be waiting a long time. Days sometimes.)

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 03:33 AM

I don't have to "look up" or trawl up out of context Kinealy's statement - I have recently read two of her books and am fully aware of her opinions on revisionism.
You have not read her book and you have said you have not read any book on the subject, nor do you have the interest to do so - which says what needs to be said as far as I am concerned.
No writer has ever suggested that the Irish people have been brainwashed from childhood, and had they done so, they would have been given short shrift - that is a statement that could only have been made by a hate-filled racist against a nation.
"Why don't you and Jim conduct your courtship entirely by PM,"
I have nothing to say to Keith - privately or publicly
I have a great deal to say about some of his ideas and suggestions and have neither the intention nor desire to attempt to change his mind - far too old to climb Everest.
Keith's PMs tend to be more extreme than do his open postings - far easier and more revealing to make them public, as far as I' concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 04:28 AM

Keith's PMs tend to be more extreme than do his open postings
Lie.
Produce one.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 04:42 AM

"Produce one."
You
You've had one and you denied that you posted it - what's the point?
I don't keep the PM postings - I delete those that have no lasting interest - I've got 192 undeleted ones as it is.
Go look on the thread where we argued about your "Muslim transplant" claim - that's when I posted one up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 01:35 PM

I have every pm I have ever sent.
Give me the subject and I will copy them.
It is a wicked lie that there has ever been anything contentious in any of them.

You've had one and you denied that you posted it - what's the point?

Completely untrue. You just make things up Jim.
If I was half the monster you say I am you would not have to tell lies about me to make your case.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 02:22 PM

"Completely untrue. You just make things up Jim."
Isn't it always, when it's inconvenient?
You have had your accusations of "lies" shoved up your nose over and over again recently and on each occasion you have moved on as if you had never made them.
I haven't said half of what I believe of your monstrous behaviour for fear of having threads closed.
I don't tell lies Keith - if I thought it necessary I wouldn't participate in these discussions - unlike .....! I'm not here to "win" anything or score points, and it would be pointless for me to do so - you make my points for me far better than I could!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 02:35 PM

Isn't it always, when it's inconvenient?

If it is not a lie, liar, produce something.
You make all these accusations but can never back them with a scrap of evidence.
You lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 02:49 PM

liar liar your pants are on fire

neh neh neh neh

you're the liar

no you're the liar

neh neh neh neh

big fat liar, you smell of poo.. etc.. etc.. etc



Just remind us how old you two are ???

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Nov 15 - 03:15 PM

I heard the RT interview, and Mr Anderson echoed almost everything that I have been saying about US FP for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 04:47 AM

"Just remind us how old you two are ???"
You are, of course, quite right.
You want to behave like this Keith - go and do it somewhere else.
A for me, apologies to all for allowing myself to get drawn into this garbage.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 09:23 AM

Jim, I just ask that you provide evidence for the accusations you made about me.
That is a reasonable request.

You can't provide any evidence because they are all made up.
You have to lie to make a case against me, and you keep trying it.
That is strange, sick behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 09:56 AM

Keith, let it go, pack it in, grow up.
Slaughtering children and babies with machetes, hacking off limbs and leaving limbs victims to bleed out,
setting fire to peoples heads in burning tyres, sexual brutality as a weapon of intimidation;
All the vile depraved nastiness of civil wars.
That is sick wicked monstrous behaviour.


Please keep your hyperbole and ludicrous over statements in perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 10:00 AM

I heve apologised for my stupid and inconsiderate behaviour and have PM-d Keith and suggested he do the same - it remains to be seen.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 10:54 AM

PM-d Keith and suggested he do the same
Your pm said no such thing.

It was not unreasonable for me to object to the accusations, and to point out that they could not be substantiated because they were lies.
I do not understand why I am criticised and the instigator and liar is not.

Jim's pm to me today.

Message:
All those quote were made long after you made all your other
statements and had blundered your way though your total
misunderstanding of revisionsm - and your racist attacks on Irish
children
You are an irretrievable racist bigot who uses your Christianity
as a badge and posess neither a shred of Christianity nor
humanity.
Not doing this Keith - and if you wish to - I'll put them up
again.
I have nothing to say to you privately - why should I have - you
don't listen or respond honestly?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 11:18 AM

Doesn't matter who started it, who said what, or who thinks he should have the last say.
You both need your heads banged together, and to be made to stand in the naughty corner until bell rings for home time.
Any more of this nonsense and you'll both be kept in for a week doing sums and lines instead of playtime.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 12:04 PM

"You both need your heads banged together,"
I've apologised and made my point - if you are going to continue too tell mmbers of a forum you are not part of how to be behave I suggest you look to your own behaviour
You are a guest - have the good grace to behave like one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 12:15 PM

sorry Jim, that was hastily dashed off in immediate response to Keith.
I acknowledge you are acting like the bigger man, a gent, apologising here in public.

Whilst Keith still insists on presenting himself as a big weasely cry baby, hence the corny primary school metaphore.

Any reasonable mudcatters still bothering to read this thread can see for themselves which of you 2 is most probably at fault.

But your mutually negative perpetual feuding and tit for tat bickering thread takeovers does need to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 12:30 PM

Rubbish GUEST, Jim is trying to misrepresent everything that Keith writes.....bigger man my arse!
Keith is accurate and takes the time to point out all the misrepresentations......something which requires to be done if this forum is to retain any credibility.

There are plenty of people who support Keith in what he is doing, personally I don't know how he can muster the energy to put these trolls in their place......but good luck to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 12:36 PM

Sorry that should read, "put you trolls in your place"

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 12:39 PM

"tit for tat bickering thread takeovers does need to stop."
Point taken - of course it does, and don't think I haven't tried.
It's a bit like a bad smell you don't know who made - unpleasant, but intriguing
Must try harder.
"Rubbish GUEST, "
(and then there were two)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 12:43 PM

Is Akenaton's inaccurate waffle payback for Keith supporting his homophobia in other threads?

Somebody said something once about trolls hunting in packs.. Team Bigot?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 01:03 PM

" a gent apologizing here in public". Surely that is a joke. These two, especially Mr. Carroll have ruined dozens of threads. Now one of them says, "sorry" and comes off a "gent". Please do keep in touch with the home planet. This petty bickering is toxic and it is way too late for "sorry".

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 01:11 PM

"Surely that is a joke."
And baby makes three
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 01:19 PM

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 01:20 PM

Hilo, it's your freedom to question the sincerity of a public apology,
but any conflict resolution process has to start somewhere,
if a 'silent' majority of us genuinely want to benefit from some kind of stable 'peace compromise' ???

Not that we want mudcat to be a "my little pony care bears" fairyland,
of course disputes and robust disagreements are a core part of mudcat debate and entertainment.
If mudcat members/guests could show more self restraint,
self policing certain far too long entrenched 'toxic' divisive feuds,
would that not be too amiss ???

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 01:33 PM

It is not the sincerity of a public apology that is the issue. It is that it is too little too late. And to add insult, to compliment Mr. Carroll on the fact that he has destroyed civil debate on this forum and now wishes to apologise for this one transgression.
As for moving forward and acting with restraint...well, good luck with that. Mr. Carroll has shown virtually no skill in that regard.
I believe there are people here besides myself, who are fed up with all of this name calling, professor, crap. So, sorry just won't cut it.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 01:33 PM

Can I suggest that trying to please all of the people all of the time ends up pleasing nobody
Our various records are - well, a matter of record and open for all to see and judge, based on which, this is gradually forming into right and left factions - for and against - whatever.
Happy to row in with my twopennorth if this is what this thread is about - but just has happy not to if it isn't
All very silly, if you ask me.
Blessed be the peacemakers - I say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 01:41 PM

It has nothing to do with right and left, whatever. It has to do with respect for this forum and the people who post here who wish to conduct a somewhat civil debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 02:12 PM

"It has to do with respect for this forum and the people"
If that's the case - all it takes if to either apologise for his behaviour - as I have for mine, or, if he doesn't feel he wants to do that, just leave it.
Civil debate and respect are dependent on all who take part
You fellers are just adding to the melee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Nov 15 - 02:35 PM

""Come and pick up your baggage, it's weighing down my heart
You never seem to understand the horse is not the cart
Shift it, lug it, move it on together - with your point of view
It's getting hard to separate your baggage from you
Pick it up.""
Baggage, Graham Parker song lyrics

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 03:28 AM

Wot the talking horse just said

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 04:57 AM

Sorry to interrupt but the argument above surely brings us back to the point.

The problem with today's world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!

                                       - Professor Brian Cox

Jim believes Keith's opinions are nonsense and vice versa. So, lads, either just ignore each other or make fun of each others opinions. But the emphasis should be on the fun, which you are clearly not having.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 06:08 AM

" So, lads, either just ignore each other or make fun of each others opinions"
Easier said than don I'm afraid Dave.
Many of the arguments I have been involved in here are on issues that affect me, friend or family members personally - not always easy to just ignore them and pass by on the other side.
All the arguments I have been involved in at length are on subjects I have an interest in and a degree of knowledge on - again, not easy to walk away when you know or think you know that arguments being put forward are incorrect.
Sure - we all come to these threads with different levels of interest and knowledge - hopefully with the intention of learning more, but when subjects are dominated (over and over again) by people who declare that they have no knowledge and rely on hastily sought out cut-'n-pastes from unread authors in order to back up pre-conceived notions - that excludes honest and fruitful debate, and when somebody compounds this by stating they not only have no knowledge of the subject but no interest in it, that is little more than destructive sabotage - virtually impossible to walk away from if it happens on a subject that you have both knowledge of and personal involvement in.
Forums such as this present us with an opportunity to air our own views and listen to and learn from others.
It is a privilege, but it brings with it a responsibility - to all members who involve themselves in these discussions.
There is a wider aspect to all this - some views expressed here would contravene national laws; they affect entire communities.
I have said often enough, I would love to see participants from other cultures - especially on the music section, but I doubt very much that I would be happy to become involved were I a Muslim (or a homosexual, for that matter)
A balance of freedom to have a say and responsibility towards others has to be the order of the day if these discussions are to have any value.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 06:22 AM

I think the point is that there are opinions that will never change and there is no point in trying to use logic and reason to refute them. Far better to ignore them. In the pub is easy to dismissively say 'Of course it is' and pointedly steer the conversation elsewhere. Trouble is on a web forum it is difficult to see that someone is ignoring something so it is often best to use the other option - Not even treating the opinion with respect. Just in my opinion of course :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 06:55 AM

" Far better to ignore them. "
Again - difficult if those offering them persist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 07:19 AM

I know, Jim, I understand what you are saying but it has been proven time and time again that these arguments do nothing but go round in circles. Break the cycle. Don't try to argue and if you cannot ignore it, just show your disrespect in other ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 07:37 AM

Back to real life experience in pubs.
What's the point in trying to have any kind of serious debate with someone
who it soon enough becomes clear is so fuddled with drink
he is incapable of any reasonable thought or discussion.
Likewise realising the person you are trying to debate with has deep rooted mental health issues,
and/or has thought processes impaired by medications.

At the point of realisation that you are banging your head against a brick wall and talking round in circles,
it's best to just make your excuses, drink up, and politely walk away.

Certainly before such a pub scenario leads to frustration, anger,
and the likelyhood of sudden nasty violence erupting.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 11:11 AM

"Show your disrespect in other ways"...Brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 12:04 PM

You're welcome :-) Actually, when I wrote that, it was not quite what I had in mind. But it works so I will leave it!

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 12:48 PM

"I knew my mother was right, but that didn't change the way I felt about things. People always think that if they can prove they're right, you'll change your mind." 
― Peter Cameron, Someday This Pain Will Be Useful to You

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 01:37 PM

Keith is always right










Wing

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 01:48 PM

Dave, it is nothing to do with disagreeing on issues.
I disagree with many people.
It is the lies about me that I object to.

Jim,
- all it takes if to either apologise for his behaviour - as I have for mine,

OK.
I am very sorry that I denied your claims about me, and that I pointed out that they were untrue, and that you could never produce examples because they were all in your head.

I promise faithfully in front of everyone that I will stop denying all your false accusations the moment you stop making them.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 02:02 PM

"Keith is always right"
As "right" as they come
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 03:36 PM

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."




Albert Einstein

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 06:22 PM

It is the lies about me that I object to.

Object all you like Keith. If you know they are lies and those you hold dear know they are lies, why do you need to prove it to a bunch of strangers who you do not care about anyway? I neither know nor care if they are lies, truth or golden bat shit. What I do know is that these arguments ruin good threads. And before you accuse me of taking sides, that is aimed at all concerned (including me at times!)

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 08:04 PM

What did Jim apologise for?...and how the hell did he get it all on one page?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 08:18 PM

At least Jim apologised for something,
which is a first step effort to try to resolve some of the toxic shit in these threads.

Keith it seems may be completely beyond reason;
apparently accepting neither blame, nor showing any consideration for selfishly obsessively spamming our debates.

Ake, whilst some of us are attempting to persuade both of them
to recognise the pernicious nuisance their eternal feud has become,
why do you need to be such an interfering shit stirrer ?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Nov 15 - 09:47 PM

Most people don't have the tolerance for swimming in shit soup the way those who continuously get involved in these fights do. That's why it's the same few people, over and over again, saying pretty much the same thing in threads whose subjects vary little, with most folks unwilling to get involved in personal feuds with people who are too fucking clueless to realize they've killed most non-music discussion...or more likely, just don't care as long as they get to continue raping threads.

You've got your little corner of the internet now, and it's not likely to attract a whole lot of new blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 03:46 AM

I far as I can see, Jim did not apologise for anything, except that it wasn't sunny last Tuesday!
Keith is being victimised by a whole group of like minded people for pointing out the inconsistences in their views and the misrepresentations and lies they present as fact.

This group are the people who destroy serious threads.....look back and see. Whenever they are cornered by Mr T or Keith they resort to discussing beer.....then start all over again.

You may not like their views, I don't agree with everything they say, but if you want this to be a credible discussion forum the gang warfare must stop.
This particular thread was started, I believe, with the intention of causing more friction and to service the ego of a rather obvious troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 03:54 AM

As I was saying, there are some opinions that deserve nothing but ridicule. Well timed, ake. I think you need to take notice of Jeri's advice and understand that it it takes 2 to tango. You also need a better understanding of internet terminology but seeing as you are an old bloke I suppose we can forgive you that.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 04:17 AM

Jim made false accusations about me personally, and I just denied them as anyone would in the same position.

Yes it does keep happening, but do not blame the victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 04:39 AM

Some things do require a response, I was accused of various serious crimes by "Team Musket" including the abuse of animals in my care.
They said I had been "charged, found guilty and forbidden from keeping animals for five years"......all absolute lies with not one shred of evidence to support them.
This was an attempt t to intimidate me because of my views on other subject, to which they could provide no reasonable answer.
You said that Musket was within his rights to print this vicious libel, as "we" (the membership) did not know whether it was true or not......I think "troll" is a perfect example of internet terminology ...in your case.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 04:41 AM

What on earth are you on about Ake?
I have said "I heve apologised for my stupid and inconsiderate behaviour" (typo and all)
Keith refuses to apologise for anything and he sees nothing wrong with his pat behaviour, and neither do you apparently, as you pass off all those who disagree with him as "trolls".
Now there's loyalty for you - I'm sure if you sit up and wag your tail, he'll throw you a biscuit.
And he still continues protestations of what he has done in public, over and over again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 04:55 AM

I don't think you are a troll Jim. You obviously believe strongly in what you print I do not like your methods regarding Keith, but I would not characterise you as a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:14 AM

ake says You said that Musket was within his rights to print this vicious libel, as "we" (the membership) did not know whether it was true or not......I think "troll" is a perfect example of internet terminology ...in your case.

I know I am repeating myself but it fits in perfectly

The problem with today's world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!

                                       - Professor Brian Cox

It means that it is anyone's right to say what they like (within certain rules - shouting fire in theatres etc.) just as it is anyone's right to ignore or ridicule what the other person says. Just as it is your right to call me a troll because you have no other argument and my right to ridicule that opinion as coming from a senile idiot with an anal sex fetish. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:20 AM

"I don't think you are a troll Jim"
Don't care one way or teh other - you described those who disagreed with Keith as trolls -
" I don't know how he can muster the energy to put these trolls in their place......but good luck to him."
Now wag your tail and go and get your bone like a good doggie.
The fact that you and he wish to continue this dispute without either an apology or recognition of bad behaviour says what needs to be said

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:37 AM

Troll, telling lies and misrepresentation is not "an opinion"

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:51 AM

Idiot, yes it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:59 AM

Supporting dishonest claims of telling lies by someone who regularly tells lies and has been shown to have done so is trollism at its worst and continues to fuck up this forum (in the way adequately described by Jeri above).
I suggest those who should, apologise and let us get back to some form of normalcy - or if not, just go away and let those who wish to debate seriously, do so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 06:06 AM

Ake, Keith, you both fail to grasp the main serious point of this tiresome 'conflict resolution process'.

It's not that anyone is asking you to kiss and make up with Jim and the MIA Muskets,
Dave, 'me' or any other one person for that matter.

But that you just stop playing your significant part in the endless tit for tat hostilities
that are destroying this forum for the rest of us.

We know you are not the only ones to blame.

Those you accuse of gang warfare also need to reign in their immature insults
and pavlovian bullying tactics of Keith for just opening his mouth.

Even when what he starts out to say is fairly innocuous, or even positively sensible.

They should know who they are and what they are doing.

If not, they can also be named and shamed and asked to be more considerate and act their age.

But for the moment, Keith is the individual being focused on,
because He is the main culprit for obsessively spamming our threads
with his endless repetitive needy self centred postings.

Jim, does at least recognise his part in the problem,
and does appear to be making an effort to apologise to mudcat community,
On balance he is probably genuinely sincere and contrite. I believe him
and hope he can continue to try to refrain from this pointless ugly idiotic recriminative tit for tat conflict.

It's over to Keith and to a lesser extent Ake, to suck it up and let go of all this 'who said what first' childish bickering nonsense.

please....

Most of the rest of us have long stopped caring who started what,
or who feels he has the need and right to 'the last word'

For pity's sake, if cameron can shrug off being exposed as a dead pig violator,
surely some of you old chaps can find the inner strength let go of whatever baggage
is motivating you to keep up this stupid war of attrition.

Just please give it a rest pack it in.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:04 PM

"A for me, apologies to all for allowing myself to get drawn into this garbage.
Jim Carroll"

That is far from an apology.....In fact it is a twisted insult, considering that Jim instigated the "garbage"

I have nothing further to say, other than why is an unnamed GUEST attempting to moderate the forum?
Something smells about this "peacemaker".

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 05:40 PM

"I have nothing further to say, other than why is an unnamed GUEST attempting to moderate the forum?"

Thank you Ake, if you hold firm to a commitment to say nothing further. That's a positive start.

As for my true ID. who cares who I am, it's not important, I'm not important.

[the mods should know who i am from IP and posting patterns,
so I'd trust they are not too displeased or perturbed by what I'm doing ???}

My reason for anonymity, is that at the very core of all these problems,
the blame lies with individual's ego, vanity, conceit, vindication, etc.

For the purpose of these posts, I relinquish self, as mudcat community is of the essential priority.

If that smells a bit iffy to you, well suck it up and buy some fragranced tissue paper.

If you have suspicion and contempt for a "peacemaker", then you and the rest of us are truly fucked up.

Thankfully you do not hold real world political position and power in a strife torn civil war scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 06:06 PM

Akenaton has just made allegations about someone on Mudcat that are not true.

Why bother reading a single the creature types?

There really is a stench of hatred in his posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 06:51 PM

See what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 06:54 PM

no

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:00 PM

If you were truly a peacemaker, you would not have condemned Keith and supported Jim

"sorry Jim, that was hastily dashed off in immediate response to Keith.
I acknowledge you are acting like the bigger man, a gent, apologising here in public.

Whilst Keith still insists on presenting himself as a big weasely cry baby, hence the corny primary school metaphore.

Any reasonable mudcatters still bothering to read this thread can see for themselves which of you 2 is most probably at fault"

The smell of hypocrisy gets worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 07:25 PM

did I ever say I was entirely impartial ?.
That's not unreasonable.

If 2 or 3 feuding families take over your favourite pub every weekend for their shouting arguments and punch ups.

At what point would you get tired of your nights out being spoiled ?
pushing and shoving near your table, drinks spilled over your missus, and glasses flying over your heads ???

If the bar manager can't, or won't, ask them to all leave and take it outside
what point do you, a couple of mates, and other bystanders man up and ask all the fighting arseholes to pack it in
because everyone else in the pub is sick of it ??!!

Would it matter if you are usually more friendly with and have more respect for one of the nuisance trouble makers,
if they are all at that moment making nasty arses of themselves ?????

So I tend to have have more respect for Jim than Keith - big deal.

Ake, I actually have respect for some aspects of your posting at mudcat..

But not in this particular thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 08:16 PM

"That is far from an apology."
I think we know where we are here and we need to leave these people where they are.
As far as I am concerned, a bunch of us have ruined thread after thread by persisting with arguments we cannot possibly win by persuading those we have argued with to change their minds - stupid, stupid stupid - every single one of us who has indulged in this behaviour WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 15 - 08:35 PM

Whoops - premature ejaculation - try again!
"That is far from an apology."
I think we know where we are here and we need to leave these people where they are.
As far as I am concerned, a bunch of us have ruined thread after thread by persisting with arguments we cannot possibly win by persuading those we have argued with to change their minds - stupid, stupid stupid - every single one of us who has indulged in this behaviour WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
I have unreservedly apologised to members of this forum for my part in these stupid arguments and have suggested that those who have also been involved do likewise and make an effort to ensure that it does not happen again.
I am not suggesting that anybody retracts anything they have said during these arguments - I certainly don't - all I am suggesting is that in future we realise when enough is enough and stop - (font color=red>SO THAT WE DON'T CONTINUE TO FUCK UP THIS FORUM FOR OTHER PEOPLE, AS WE HAVE DONE IN THE PAST - SIMPLE AS THAT
Keith makes it quite clear that he considers himself devoid of all blame - has said as much and has refused to apologise - his prerogative.
Ake, who has been as much a part of this as anybody, has refused to accept my apology, has offered none of his own, has defended Keith's behaviour in all this, and is now baying for blood by demanding total surrender - not going to happen.
I will do my best not to be part of thread-hogging in future, though I fully intend to be part of threads that interest me.
Keith and Ake can please themselves - as far as I'm concerned, their behaviour here speaks volumes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 03:30 AM

Jim. Settle down. They are both blinkered by their shared bigotry and warped views. They both mud sling and go running to moderators when they are given a taste of their own medicine. A couple of posts seem to have disappeared.

Keith shouts "liar!" when his absurd opinions masquerading as facts are shown to be what they are and Akenaton is just an old man with an outlet for his confusion. Presumably before the Internet his life was more simple but he is struggling to equate his bigotry with the wide world he recently found.

They say there is one in every village.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 04:33 AM

Very strange isn't it GUEST that when the usual suspects and their GUEST supporters make allegations against the likes of Keith A and Ake and are simply and reasonably asked to provide examples and evidence to substantiate those allegations they seem unable to come up with anything - or hadn't you noticed that?

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 04:53 AM

I agree, Jim. I also apologise to the Mudcat community and the moderators for my joining in with the ridiculous arguments in question.

In my defense, when I see statements that are blatantly nonsense or purposely antagonistic I cannot help but say something. In future, If I can make my point clear in one simple post, I shall do so and not persist in keeping such arguments alive.

If the thread is my own, such as this one, and it becomes taken over by those who feel the need to win, then I shall let it die. I have made my point about opinions over and over on here. There is no point in doing it again so this is my last post on this thread.

And once again, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 05:07 AM

"Very strange isn't it GUEST"
And another one joins in to keep things as they were
That is what is noticeable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 06:15 AM

It seems by the writing "style" that the Muskets have crawled back in as GUESTS Mr T.

I think its about time unnamed guests were deleted and members who post as guests should be exposed.
I also think it is wrong to delete posts just because moderators disagree with the political views expressed.

I've had a couple of what I thought were well constructed posts deleted simply because I made my opinions clear on who was to blame for the coming upheaval over Islamic Fundamentalism.
I have a feeling the Paris atrocity is simply the opening salvo.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 08:36 AM

I would like to apologize for the Spanish Inquisition, if no other person has done so on Mudcat yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 08:48 AM

Oh !! Can I apologise for the Great Fire of London and have the Big Freeze of 1963 taken into account.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 08:54 AM

I believe Teribus and akenation are muskets in disguise.
I have strong faith in my hunch, so no amount of evidence can disprove this.

This is how they disrupt threads and continue to prolong conflict.
It is a known tactic of intelligence agencies in the cold war.

I suspect Keith is an alien from another space time dimension sent to this planet to prepare for conquest.




see.. we can all play this warped nonsensical suspicion and paranoia game.

It's easier than leaving their comfort zone of pointless hostilities,
and accepting that the majority at mudcat think think they are barmy bitter troublemakers
who simply never want peace and rationality to prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 09:34 AM

Ake, a simple question, why are you so obsessed with flushing out muskets from under the bed ?

I've never known who they are, don't know when and where they went,
or if they are still popping up here.
Personally it don't matter to me.

So why are you wallowing in suspicion that I or anyone else may be one ???
Rather than concentrating and responding with clarity of mind to what is actually said to you ?????

All I know about you is that you are an older bloke from Scotland.
That's the full extent of what I know about a character calling himself akenation.
Do I need to know your full ID and biography - not really.

I just read what you post and respond with my best experienced judgement of how you present yourself in writing.

Are you a musket by the way ? not that it really matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 10:11 AM

I didn't say you were one. I recognise the terms of abuse used by two of them and their emotional hang ups.

I have been here for twelve years always under the name akenaton, ( by the way there are several spellings of the name, my Mudcat handle is not one of them....intentionally).

I have only ever posted as a guest by accident when not noticing that I was logged off.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 10:13 AM

I think you are probably PFR.....not that it matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 10:38 AM

Well done SherlAke Holmes... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Listen up!
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Nov 15 - 11:42 AM

Cheers mate :0)