BS: Fear WITH Guns

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 11:25 PM

Ebbie: "Where do you get your information?"

Front stoop. How many of those eighty in the projects or prison? I'm past seventy and know plenty of third gen gangbangers. More than one is doing time with the father. Trust and believe a snitch is on par with a child molester, open season.

fyi "Sopranos" may I suggest: "Grape Street Crips" on youtube and remember there were no union screenwriters involved.

I've also spent years in Maine and Texas and never saw anything worse than a parking ticket tiff. Florida somewhere in between. It's a big country and parts of it are truly effed up.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 10:48 PM

A huge slice of American society worships thuggery, the badder the better, and would agree a "snitch" needs killing." Sounds like you may have watched the Sopranos a bit much. (On the other hand, I never did see even one episode of them so it may be some other show.) For your edification, I don't know one single person who "worships thuggery, the badder the better, and would agree a snitch needs killing" and I'm 80 years old and have lived my entire life so far in the United States. Where do you get your information?

As for Tamir Rice, if the cops in question really feared for their lives, and were competent officers, why in the world did they pull up broadside to the kid and within 50 feet? Why didn't they pull up a distance away to assess the situation? Nah.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 10:15 PM

#... I didn't EXCLUDE the media. I merely doubt it as the sole...or major cause.

I explained my view in pretty great detail above.

----------------------------

"If Rice (5'7"- #195) pulled his stunt at Heathrow today ..."

he didn't "pull a stunt" he was a kid pretending with his pellet gun.He never aimed AT anyone or fired it. For most of the time, there was no one near him. Even the guy who reported him said it was 'probably' not a real gun. The cops could have discovered that if they had just stopped back aways and yelled at him.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 09:57 PM

Stu, Ebbie, et al: "So *why* do police - given all the equipment/training/experience they have - feel so much fear that they shoot? "

Police are trained to assess the risk of serious bodily injury or death the subject poses to the people around them, the general public, fellow officers and self. Assuming "so much fear" = irrationality here, how did you conclude this as opposed to what a rational person would have concluded given the same set of facts and required reaction time? fwiw: In urban America the meme of premediated genocide is at least as popular as random or systemic cowardice.

Stu: "the fact you see a deadly weapon where I see a child with a toy gun, because where I'm from we can go years at a time without ever seeing a gun; they are not part of our culture."

If Rice (5'7"- #195) pulled his stunt at Heathrow today I'd give him 50-50 on survival. Even so I'm not sure how useful any one human lifespan (or three) is in comparing the evolution of whole nations and societies. And one may find plenty German Glocks; Italian Berettas; Chinese Norincos; ad naseum in "Chi-raq" these days. "Not part of our 'domestic' culture." Perhaps?


"It's part of the slaughter deemed a part of daily life in some countries. That is pretty sad."

A huge slice of American society worships thuggery, the badder the better, and would agree a "snitch" needs killing. They don't see themselves as sad, cheesed off yes, but not sad. It's the exact opposite of what they and the mainstream(?) and you demand of the police. The world tuts about the status quo while their arms industries merrily shift millions of units/annum into the U.S. markets. I am shocked—shocked—to find that gun violence is going on in America!

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 04:22 PM

OK then. It's got nothing to do with media. If so, explain it. Or it has your view which places it where?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 04:13 PM

"The answer is fairly basic, fundamental. The cops watch the same news media the population watches. "

Oh, c'mon now.... that is way oversimplifying it. Even if 'most' cops watch the media (and we don't know how many do), many of them have widely different backgrounds and experiences.... and serve in diverse communities. You can't generalize THAT much about shooting causes and psychological tendencies among many thousands of cops.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 02:55 PM

Basic training for US cops.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Megan L
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 12:47 PM

When I was a first aid instructor I always told trainees that learning in the safe environment of a classroom is very different to out in the field. You do not know how you will react regardless how much training you have until you are faced with the situation for real. One of my greatest firstaiders for competitions I could not be used in event as he fainted at the sight of blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 12:16 PM

Los Angeles county 623 homicides this year.

Another nice map.

www.homicide.latimes.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 12:15 PM

"Face it, guns mean many live in fear." Stu

Right. My point, exactly.

And yes, the police watch the same news that the citizenry do- but why then the training? If the police react the same way that a panicked householder may, of what use is the training?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 12:10 PM

The city of Long Beach CA has a population of 500,000.

The Xs on the map are the shootings of civilians by civilians for 364 days of 2015.

www.lbreport.com/news/dec15/245wrig.htm

Sincerely,

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 11:04 AM

". . . what I wonder is why no one except me seems to be addressing Ebbie's original question."

Here is Ebbie's original question: "So *why* do police - given all the equipment/training/experience they have - feel so much fear that they shoot?"

The answer is fairly basic, fundamental. The cops watch the same news media the population watches.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 10:25 AM

No one here... or in the media... seems to have made the relevant point about the shooting of Tamir Rice. Finally last night a lawyer for his family said it.

It is not whether the kid's gun was real or not, or whether the cops were 'scared' or not.... it was that, given what they knew, driving right up in front of him was totally stupid and NOT in line with standard procedure! The investigation took over a YEAR as they scoured the country looking for 'experts' who would testify that the shooting was justified. Then the defense ridiculed the prosecution experts in front of the Grand Jury!

IF they had stopped 20-40 yards away and assessed the situation and called out to him, they could soon have determined what was going on! People seem to have also lost the point that both of those cops had previous bad employment reviews, and the one who did the shooting had been fired by another town with a note that he should not be in law enforcement.


That is my take on that particular incident... what I wonder is why no one except me seems to be addressing Ebbie's original question. Did anyone actually read my longish post attempting to put some perspective on the idea of "fear WITH guns" by police?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 09:57 AM

"That picture, if of the object that the child was holding, looks remarkably like a .45 caliber M1911A1 pistol."

It looks to YOU and the coppers like a M1911A1 (whatever the heck that is) because you have become habituated to identifying the weapons that are sloshing around in the society you live. This isn't meant as a criticism or insult, just the fact you see a deadly weapon where I see a child with a toy gun, because where I'm from we can go years at a time without ever seeing a gun; they are not part of our culture.

So it's part of the social conditioning of some societies that folk expect anything that looks like a gun to be a deadly weapon whether it is or not. This means people live in state of permanent low-level fear and when confronted with what they perceive to be a threat react accordingly as the limbic system kicks in, and bang! another one bites the dust.

It's not protecting society, it's not justice, it's not serving anyone. It's part of the slaughter deemed a part of daily life in some countries. That is pretty sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 09:33 AM

Damned straight the cops were scared! That the dispatcher didn't pass on the information that the kid might have had a toy gun is totally wrong and might have saved the kid's life.

That picture, if of the object that the child was holding, looks remarkably like a .45 caliber M1911A1 pistol. I wish the magazine was turned over to show a CO₂ cylinder slot if there is one. There is nothing to distinguish it from a real pistol even from the distance from which it is photographed -- no orange barrel, for instance. There might be -- probably is -- information stamped into the side of weapon, but reading it means have the weapon in your hand.

Now, if a grown man who is trained in police work can't overcome a 12 year old the training and the self-control of the officer is seriously questionable.

But then, I knew a military policeman (a non-combat veteran) who drove around with a box of unissued ammunition when on patrol. It was so he'd have "enough ammo for a shootout and I hope I have one before I get out of the Army!" I and others thought he was slightly off but he was one of the darlings of the CO and....

If carrying a gun makes you feel eight feet tall and covered with hair, I don't want to be around you because you'll get us both killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 08:13 AM

" Pellet guns were considered weapons when I was young (50-60s.)"

So shooting someone with an airgun is the same as shooting someone with a pistol? A twelve year old boy?


"I never had one, nor did I know anyone who did"

Really? No plastic guns for playing war with your mates? Hmmm.

" How does the officer know if it is real ?"

Good point. Blast his brains out, just in case. HE WAS TWELVE.

The police were scared and this impairs their judgement. They see a threat where there is none and innocent people die. Face it, guns mean many live in fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 05:10 AM

I never had one, nor did I know anyone who did.the"toy" in question was a near exact replica of a real gun. How does the officer know if it is real ?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 05:03 AM

Stu: "...a boy playing with a toy gun. We all had toy guns when we were kids, right?"

No. Pellet guns were considered weapons when I was young (50-60s.)
http://image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width620/img/open_impact/photo/17244430-mmmain.jpg

Wave that around in an inner city public park setting and just plan on getting shot by someone, gang member, gun nut or police.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 15 - 04:41 AM

"The bad guy has to shoot first, Ebbie."

Arrant tosh. Tell that to the family of Tamir Rice, a boy playing with a toy gun. We all had toy guns when we were kids, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 10:40 PM

Of course. But there are always a few in every country who feel that, given the chance, they could do it better.

True story:

After the theater shootings in Colorado I happened to be in a gun store and overheard two young men each stating flatly that "if I had been there things would have been different." After ten or so repetitions of this I inquired about their training the handle such a situation and was told that no, neither was police trained or had been in the military. Speaking from personal experience I told them that they had no way of knowing how they would react to what would essentially be combat and being untrained they would most likely freeze and/or poop their pants.

This was not well received. They told me that they "had played plenty of paintball" and knew how to handle themselves. I calmly replied that paintball was a game and they weren't likely to die doing it. I was told that "paintball really stings when you get hit." I asked them if they knew of anyone who had been killed by a paintball, and pointed out that an active shooter is active, trying to kill you, and panic would rule them and everyone else.

I think I made my point.

Police and military have to make nanosecond decisions and they have to be the right decision. Is it a gun? Is it a REAL gun? Is there actually a threat here? Do I have a clear field of fire if I must fire? What is behind me, to the sides, up above that I might hit if I miss the bad guy? What will my family do if I'm shot? Maybe...is that just a stick? Okay, he's armed with a knife, not a gun, and now what do I do? He's breaking car windows and he's thrown that old man to the sidewalk -- should I shoot or not?

I have no sympathy for cops who gun down the unarmed or empty their pistols into a suspect who's down. I have no sympathy for a cop or anyone else who uses more force than is necessary. I wish shooting was confined to targets at shooting ranges. I wish that the US had rational gun control laws, made with thought during calm instead of in reaction to another "incident." I wish that the gun culture of the US wasn't so embedded in the national pysche that a gun is looked at as the tool it is.

Mostly, I wish there wasn't evil and greed and such things in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,#
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 09:59 PM

I don't need to walk around with a gun because I hire people to do that for me. I'm a taxpayer. The people I hire are called cops. Isn't that the way it works in the US of A?

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 04:55 PM

"...the Jacquard loom..."

1960's Singer industrial textile looms and DeLaval centrifuges both got their media from QRS (Music.) NASA's Space Shuttle flight simulator was subbed by Singer-Link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnb7EqfykF4

The headbobs and that "How ya like me now?" grin at 04:23m:s … priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 01:29 PM

Which all came from the Jacquard loom...along with many other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 12:41 PM

In American just join an upscale urban firing range/gun club with a training simulator and it will keep score of how many innocents you would kill if confronted with a similar set of circumstances AND reaction time. No guessing required.

I have yet to meet the first-timer who doesn't come out of it guilty... guilty... guilty or dead twice. Either way there's plenty cold sweat to go with.

Music Trivia: Did you know modern 'training simulators' are a direct outgrowth of the reproducing (aka 'player') piano industry? See: Edwin Albert Link; Link Piano and Organ Company; the Link Trainer and today's:

https://www.link.com/Pages/default.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 12:17 PM

Let me try to answer, in small measure, Ebbie's question.

Years ago I saw a newspaper article in the Washington Post about an interview with a convicted kid from the inner city who had shot someone. He was asked why (he had an argument with the victim) he had used a gun instead of just a fight.
He replied (paraphrased) "Well, when someone disrespects you, you got to do something, and fighting just means he'll be back at you. A gun just settles it fast."

Bad logic, but it illustrates a mindset... and cops often have a similar attitude from a different perspective. They spend much time dealing with crime and kids like the one quoted.... who 'may' have weapons. Even when 'problem people' don't have weapons, they often defy and dare police and are uncooperative. Cops, by virtue of their job expect to be obeyed and can lose patience with those who not only make them work harder, but 'disrespect' the very job the police have! (yes... sometimes for good reason). Then, because there are so many guns among the people the cops have to deal with, they are constantly aware & on guard..... *SOME* cops have shorter fuses than others... and some probably should not BE cops, even though it may not be obvious when they are hired. It's like wartime... you just can't always tell who will be a good soldier and who will fail in combat.
   So... in many urban settings, with guns 'available' and attitudes on both sides often heated, "things happen", and cops.. as well as citizens... can use a gun to end a confrontation quickly.... and cops have, until recently, known that their version of an incident usually prevails... "I was in fear for my life". If the victim already has a police record, that explanation is easy to sell... even IF no gun is found.
   In the last few years, with so many cameras, both carried by people and mounted on buildings, recording stuff, the situation has changed... but not the attitudes that cause confrontations. We now SEE obviously stupid behavior.. on both sides.
Hiring and training good police officers is never easy-- you have to find people who are capable and brave enough to do the job, while weeding out those who just like to be 'in control' and hassle others (and often with pre-existing bias toward certain groups). It does little good to note that many police go an entire career without ever drawing their gun seriously, and that most police do NOT allow their emotions to override their training... there are just too many people, too many guns and too many situations in a rising population!

What we have now is guns, stress, opportunity... and media of several types to report on it all. ... and the media not only reports incidents, it feeds the fear and fuels 'defensive behavior'.

It is all of the above that the phrase "a vicious circle" was coined to explain.... and the common factor is guns. We KNOW that they are part of the problem, yet like in wartime, they are also viewed as part of the solution... no matter how absurd that sounds in the abstract.... and thus we see bus stop ads telling us that "Guns Save Lives". It has become a slogan... and simple slogans don't always make sense except in theory, but being simple, they are often the easiest to adopt... and the firearms industry will do little to dispel the idea.

What more can I say? It is what it is....

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 12:07 PM

So, how long should an officer take to determine that is a cane or a toy gun. I would certainly be very afraid under those circumstances, I am sure anyone would be. It is not an easy question for sure .

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 11:19 AM

I was driving a rental car through the streets of Phoenix, Arizona about a month ago. Drove past a bus stop; bus stops have shade, protection from that Arizona sun, so these little shelters have advertising space going from the little roof down to the sidewalk.

In big capital letters on one bus-stop advert board:

G U N S    S A V E   L I V E S   


L E A R N   H O W   T O   S H O O T   S T R A I G H T

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 11:15 AM

"The bad guy has to shoot first, Ebbie."

But, Rap, many of these 'incidents' involve someone *without* a weapon. Evidently the officer is so instantly, viscerally, afraid that she/he perceives a camera, a toy gun or a cane as a threat to himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 10:30 AM

I often wonder why anyone would want to be a policeman or woman, especially in America. It seems a thankless job and a very dangerous one indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 10:02 AM

The bad guy has to shoot first, Ebbie. But the cops should give a warning before shooting (unless the bullets are already coming).

And there's also "suicide by cop." No cop that I know wants to shoot and/or kill someone who wants to die; the burden is very, very heavy. I suppose that the person is afraid that they won't "do the job" and so they have a cop do it -- like the person who jumps in front of a train and puts the onus for their death on the engineer and the train crew.

In the event of an accident, whether or not personal injury or death was involved, the Union Pacific Railroad changes the entire train crew and if necessary provides counseling. Cops are usually giving administrative leave, with counseling.

I'm not including cases where the cop shoots someone sixteen times after the person is "down" and anything similar. "Adrenaline rush" is no excuse; cops should be trained to deal with that.

The average citizen is not trained in "concealed carry" training to deal with the adrenaline, fear, pressure, and other emotions that come in a true life-or-death situation. "Freezing" is the most common reaction, followed by an evacuation of the bladder and/or bowels -- as any soldier whose been in combat. These are natural reactions to such a situation.

There are three possible reaction to an active and immediate threat: fight, posturing, or flight. "Posturing" is Tarzan beating his chest or a guy in a bar telling someone how badly he's going to beat them up. The problem is telling posturing from an true threat and you might only get one chance.

And that's why I support less-than-lethal weapons. Yes, people have died from Taser shots, but more have died from bullets. Someone armed with a machete is no match for a cop with a Glock, but if the machete is being used to cut people than the cop uses a Glock and not a Taser.

Cops are, slowly, getting better training about dealing with combat pressure. There are rounds -- NOT paintball! -- that sting but are not lethal which are available to police to give them an idea of what it's like to face someone who might kill you. Trainees are run a mile, orally harassed like a recruit in the Marines, and then run through such a course of fire without being told what's going on. The alternative is to have someone actively try to shoot a trainee and that's not really acceptable on many levels.

No matter how much I wish this wasn't so, that's what is. And it doesn't matter if the threat is in Anchorage, Pocatello, Paris, Juneau, Moscow, or London, sometimes force must be met with force.

Subject: RE: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 09:57 AM

I don't know.

Here in the civilised first world, people aren't allowed to carry guns. We have far less gun crime. Our police, who don't carry guns normally have armed response units who do. Each and every time a shot is made, there is a full investigation.

Still, they do cock up just like your police do. This makes our reaction to the idea of members of the public carrying guns being something that should never happen and never can in civilised countries.

The Foreign Office advice for UK travellers to The USA warns us of the problem.

Subject: BS: Fear WITH Guns
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 15 - 02:16 AM

Reading another of the seemingly endless accounts of police shooting an unarmed citizen with police then commonly stating in their defence that they feared for their lives or safety, it occurs to me to wonder at the contradiction.

Regular people (American) buy/carry/stash guns because they fear that they will be accosted/assaulted/invaded, right?

So *why* do police - given all the equipment/training/experience they have - feel so much fear that they shoot? Rather than threaten? If *police* cannot control their fear, given that they have a weapon on their bodies, how can the citizenry hope for self discipline?