BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 03:49 AM

Only a few months into JC's leadership and they are in real trouble.
What is it with the hard left and anti-semitism?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 04:00 AM

Dunno Keith, do tell....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:00 AM

It's partly about the slippery slope between criticism of the State of Israel which is sometimes called Anti-Zionism and criticism of all or most Jewish people which is sometimes called Antisemitism.

The first is generally regarded as legitimate, the second as racist.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:23 AM

The Labour Party has fallen victim to the Israeli campaign to implicate the Jewish people in their terrorism - to them, anybody who criticises Israel is "Antisemitic".
By definition, the Israeli regime is Antisemitic and has caused the current rise in Antisemitism - they have painted a target on the backs of every Jew on the planet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:45 AM

So its all Israel's fault!
Thanks for clearing that up Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:49 AM

Yet another cynical contrived opportunistic attack on Corbyn from enemies within the party, and the right wing media..

[ not so much from the tories this time as they need his support on EU ]

The BBC news was shamefully biased yesterday
- shows how much The Beeb has been tamed and shackled by the corporate right in the last few years.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:00 AM

"Thanks for clearing that up Jim."
You are very welcome.
Is it not part of the European definition that an attempt to equate the actions of the Israeli regime with the Jewish People as a whole is "antisemitic"?
Is it not true that the knee-jerk response of the Israeli regime is to describe any criticism as "Antisemitism", even to describing the Untied nations as such and attempting to have the International Criminal Court closed down to avoid standing trial for the mass killings of civilians and destruction of hospitals and homes of Palestinians?
Yes ort no will do, but I would prefer 'no' to be qualified with facts rather than just denials.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:25 AM

Not just the right wing media.

Labour antisemitism crisis: party deals with fallout of Livingstone suspension – live
The Guardian‎ - 23 mins ago
Ken Livingstone leaves his home in London after being suspended from the Labour party.
Ken Livingstone's 'grotesque analogies' unite the national press
The Guardian‎ - 4 hours ago
Ken Livingstone must be thrown out of Labour. He's had his last second chance
The Guardian‎ - 1 hour ago
More news for guardian livingstone
Ken Livingstone | Politics | The Guardian
www.theguardian.com/politics/livingstone
Live Labour suspends Ken Livingstone over Hitler and antisemitism row - Politics live ... Ken Livingstone suspended from Labour after Hitler remarks.
Is this self-ignited firestorm the end for Ken Livingstone ...
www.theguardian.com › Opinion › Ken Livingstone
15 hours ago - This could be it for Ken Livingstone and the Labour party. To be cast into the wilderness by his party once, as he was before winning the ...
Ken Livingstone's 'grotesque analogies' unite the national ...
www.theguardian.com › Media › Ken Livingstone
4 hours ago - As the Guardian said: "With singular crassness, instead of clearing the air ... The Times viewed Livingstone's "grotesque analogies" and ...
Ken Livingstone must be thrown out of Labour. He's had his ...
www.theguardian.com › Opinion › Labour
1 hour ago - London Mayor Ken Livingstone at the Labour party conference in 2005. 'As in all groups ... Photograph: Dan Chung for the Guardian. Contact ...
Ken Livingstone suspended from Labour after Hitler remarks ...
www.theguardian.com › Politics › Ken Livingstone
18 hours ago - Labour has suspended the former London mayor Ken Livingstone "for bringing the party into disrepute" after MPs accused of him of ...
Ken Livingstone's Hitler remarks spark Labour calls for ...
www.theguardian.com › Politics › Ken Livingstone
18 hours ago - Labour is facing numerous calls to suspend the former London mayor Ken Livingstone after he was accused of antisemitism and making ...
Timeline: events leading to Ken Livingstone suspensi

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:40 AM

Last time I was a daily Guardian reader was over 30 years ago...

I presume it's perhaps even more comfy liberal middle class these days.. hardly socialist worker / morning star ....???

So these out of context extracts don't exactly do much but demonstrate reasonably neutral objective reporting.

The unattributed "grotesque analogies" quote might veer towards opinionated reporting.. perhaps..????


In the bigger game of 'divide and rule' the Guardian is surely of not much consequence...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 09:02 AM

"Not just the right wing media."
Where does any of this contradict anything I have put up about Israeli Antisemitism in implicating the entire Jewish population in Isreli atrocities - is the press now made up of "real historians" who sell their books in "real bookshops"?
The Israeli have devised a technique of dismissing criticism of all their atrocities as anti-Semitic and to a degree, they have been successful
Doesn't make the Israeli regime any less Antisemitic.
If to criticise Israel is Antisemitic - Erinstein, Haaretz, the former heads of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families are Antisemites.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 09:28 AM

Nicely deflects any media criticism away from the present government for a day or two.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 10:40 AM

Just like here the shit always rises to the surface.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 06:49 PM

The assertions of antisemitism (in the usual meanings of the word) in the Labour party are conjurations. The criticisms of Naz Shah and Ken Livingstone are part of a concerted attempt by two interest groups to undermine the Labour party (with the local elections coming), to undermine Jeremy Corbyn (who seeks to defend the Palestinians from Zionist oppression) and to weaponise the assertion that criticism of Israel and its vile government and its murderous armed forces are antisemitic. One such group is the Zionists, and the other is the bitterites, who would rather see Labour lose an election than accept that the Labour has roundly rejected con-servative lite policies such as those of Tony B.Liar.

There have been attempts since at least 2005 to insert criticism of Israel into conventional definitions of antisemitism.

The Naz Shah meme most complained of was a witty rejoinder to the fact that the USA (terrified of its Jewish lobby) used war debt to bully the UK into capitulating to Zionist terrorism in 1948, and has at least recently been subsidising the Israeli military (and thus the US weapons manufacturing sector) with vast sums of money. Israel has nuclear weapons modern warplanes and white phosphorus. Palestine in general and Gaza in particular have none. The Israeli forces kill about 160 Palestinians for every Israeli killed by Palestinians. Some of the people the Israeli armed forces summarily execute are children with their hands tied behind their backs.

Ken Livingstone was and remains historically accurate - and the quite remarkable thing is that the loathsome Netanyahu made exactly the same point about the Haaretz agreement.

Another fascinating thing is that the hasbara have also claimed the scalp of a young aide appointed by Sanders to improve his Jewish vote.

Mann is a loathsome traitor to the Labour cause, and the deliberate trap complete with film crew that he laid should see him expelled from the Labour party.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 07:17 PM

Bridge defending antisemites......is anyone surprised by that?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 08:15 PM

" the fact that the USA (terrified of its Jewish lobby) used war debt to bully the UK into capitulating to Zionist terrorism in 1948"

Absolutely dying to hear the substantive evidence that backs that statement up. Great Britain relinquished and gave up its League of Nations Mandate precisely when it should have done. Nothing whatsoever to do with the USA or any bullying. The floor is yours Bridge let's hear the detail.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 16 - 08:28 PM

Has Livingstone been proven by any decent sensible reasonable standards to be any kind of racist ?

He may be a bit of a dick with a tongue in cheek sense of humour that is deliberately misconstrued by enemies determined to find things to be offended by..

but a racist ?????

This whole pernicious poisonous "I call you that thing, so therefore you are that thing" tactic employed by the labour traitors over the last few days
just shows some of them them up to be desperate pathetic shites.

Then there are all the cowards who fail to back up Livingstone for fear of being called that thing themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 01:35 AM

I rather like Ken Livingstone and think he has been rather naïve over this, but surely the "liberal" left including Richard indulge in this sort of behaviour all the time?

It is becoming impossible to discuss controversial subjects anywhere without being attacked verbally.

Discussions on immigration become "racism", health rates "homophobia", support for anyone but Mrs Clinton "misogyny".
Take your pick.......Political Correctness rules.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 02:04 AM

Thanks to Israeli efforts, criticism of Israel and Antisemitism have become indistinguishable.
This campaign has become a knee-jerk reaction of at least one regular contributor to this forum who has disappeared since the new rule of allowing only members to post to BS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 02:07 AM

Sorry - didn't finish.
Having said that, it is the responsibility of politicians and others in the public eye to choose their words carefully - the social network can be a bit of a pain in the arse, especially after closing time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 06:24 AM

Mann is a loathsome traitor to the Labour cause, and the deliberate trap complete with film crew that he laid should see him expelled from the Labour party.

I noted that when Ken was suspending the charge was not directly anti-Semitism but 'bringing the party into disrepute', and if that related to a somewhat intemperate row in front of the media, Mann is every bit as guilty.

Like Richard, I was pretty convinced what Ken actually said was historically accurate (unlike Mann's comments), so I looked them up and I think his case is solid, providing you interpret wanting the Jews to go to Israel to be supportive of Zionism (and remember the accusers are repeatedly saying that only means "having the right to a self governing state of Israel") But since when has being historically accurate mattered much against emotional appeals?

As to headline question: whither the Labour Party? Much depends on how the May 5th elections turn out. The bitterites will stress every loss of a seat and ignore every win; the Corbynites will do the reverse. That is, politics as normal. It will only differ from this if there is a complete collapse of one side or the other, which isn't very likely.

As an aside, I heard a clever parody of "Benjamin Bowmaneer" at the club last night "I'll tell how the wars began, Anthony Blair-i-o.."
That still has a huge impact on the 'whither Labour' question.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:24 AM

Why cant Livingston And Mann shut their stupid mouths. Mann should know better than pick a public fight one week before the Mayor election, but hey who gives a f*** about all the hours of hard work - canvassing and leafleting that people who really care about the election have done. Does Mann care if Goldsmith wins the mayor election and ordinary Londoners face increased fares, and are finally kicked out of the capital because of house prices, or forced to live in 3 x 3 metre homes with shared bathrooms and cooking facilities and pay over £1,000 for the privilege. But why should he give a toss, he has a safe seat and he gets his face in the Daily Mail.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:33 AM

Sorry for the missing apostrophe in can't. I will be back out canvassing and leafleting for the next 9 hours

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 May 16 - 04:45 AM

I am with SPB:

"Why cant Livingston And Mann (and loads of others) shut their stupid mouths. Mann should know better than pick a public fight one week before the Mayor election, but hey who gives a f*** about all the hours of hard work - canvassing and leafleting that people who really care about the election have done"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 05:26 AM

Why can't I help but feel it was a set up.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:05 AM

Because you're a conspiracy theorist? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:14 AM

Ah ......... there may be an element of truth in that, but who told you that I was.

On a more realistic note Akenaton just happening to be were he knew Ken Livingstone was going to be and just happening to have a TV crew at hand and to behave as he did in front of a TV instead of in private you have to ask yourself some questions about the validity of the whole scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:16 AM

Just joking Raggytash.....I'm sure you have a point.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 May 16 - 06:21 AM

I know you were Akenaton and thank you for it.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 16 - 12:47 PM

Conspiracy theory....???

This current rancid attack on Corbyn's allies and leadership stinks so obviously of a strategically timed orchestrated smear campaign
to ferment divisive internal disruption and hostilities within the Labour party.

But instigated by 'who' and 'why' now...???

This shoul be a good conspiracy guessing game over the bank holiday...

The outrage being generated is so over exaggerated and phoney
that the stooges in the frontline of the media attack
are just making themselves look very stupid...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 01 May 16 - 07:02 PM

But instigated by 'who' and 'why' now...???

Definitely a conspiracy instigated by Jews/Zionists in order to discredit Corbyn and the Labour party. They tricked Labour party members into making antisemitic comments so that they would reveal themselves as being antisemites. The Jews/Zionists, besides controlling world banking, governments and the media, have extraordinary powers to effect people into saying things that they don't really mean. This is but only one way these nefarious people exert their will upon the unsuspecting.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 16 - 07:26 PM

"extraordinary powers"... what.. like supernatural super hero mesmerising mind controls powers...???

that'd be well cool....!!!

I'll have to ask my mum if anyone on her side of the family could do that and can let me in on the secrets..... 😎


Though in reality, it's probably less fantasy sci fi conspiracy theory explanation
and more likely just plain old mundane covert intelligence agency influence & interference with UK political parties and media...??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:00 AM

I think the real point is that Mr Corbyn is unlikely to survive as leader of a socialist party with no socialist representatives.
Skeletons will continue to be unearthed by a disgusting, dirt delving media, and a system which sees any alternative to jungle law as enathema

The contradictions are starting to show once again. The movement needs to go back to the grass roots, forget about government and concentrate on education; which is difficult when political representation is equated to a career opportunity.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Acorn4
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:54 AM

Going back a bit, anyone who said anything bad about Jimmy Saville, or about police/government behaviour over Hillsborough would have been called a "conspiracy theorist".

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:07 AM

According to a report issued by the Campaign Against Anti-semitism    the number of hate crimes against Jews in Britain has reached a shocking high. Police recorded almost 1,000 anti-Semitic offences in 2015 - up 25 per cent. The findings also revealed that the growth in anti-Semitism is a core part of far-Left ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:23 AM

Interesting article here from this morning's Irish Times.
Jim Carroll

Anti-Semitism claims are used for political End
David Landy and Ronit Lentin
Opposition to Israel must not be confused with the evil hatred of Jewish people.

The recent calls to expel former London mayor Ken Livingstone from the British Labour Party have created a worrying alliance between those who use accusations of anti-Semitism to silence critics of Israel and those who use them to attack supporters of the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn. The calls for his expulsion came after Livingstone said in a BBC interview that Hitler had supported Zionism "before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews". The claim itself was clumsy but based on historical fact - Hitler originally sought to expel rather than exterminate European Jews. As part of this, he negotiated the Haavara Agreement with Zionist organisations which allowed some Jews to escape to Palestine with some of their property in return for Zionist opposition to the global boycott of German goods. This was hardly "support for Zionism", but Livingstone's critics went further with fellow Labour MPs accusing him of anti-Semitism.
In response, Livingstone cautioned against "confusing criticism of the Israeli government policy with anti-Semitism", and defended Corbyn, who had been accused of not taking firm enough action against anti-Semitism in the party, which, he said, was part of a smear campaign against the party leader.
Europeans need to face their history of anti-Semitism that culminated in the Nazi Holocaust. Ireland has its own part in that history, the Irish government only admitted 60 Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi persecution between 1933 and 1946. Anti-Semitic sentiments continue - this was clear during the attack on the Hyper Casher supermarket in Paris after the Charlie Hebdo murders.
Israel vs Jews
However, supporters of Israel have sought to widen the definition of anti-Semitism to include those who call themselves anti-Zionist and most recently, those who support the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement. In this, they use an obsolete formulation from the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour". The EUMC has since abandoned this wording as it was being used to launch attacks on critics of Israel, rather than to tackle real anti-Semitism.
Such efforts to equate anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism follow the state of Israel in conflating Jews with Zionists, even though not all Jews are Zionists or Israel supporters.
Growing numbers of Jewish people in and outside Israel - international groups such as Jewish Voice for Peace and the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, as well as Israeli groups such as Boycott from Within - oppose Israeli policies, do not define themselves as Zionists and support the BDS movement. The growing accusations of anti-Semitism against critics of Israel are aimed primarily at discrediting the successful BDS movement.
Israel has announced a $26 million investment in an anti-BDS campaign. Accusing its non-Jewish critics of anti-Semitism and its Jewish critics of being "self-hating Jews" is a central element of this campaign.
Accusations as weapons
Returning to the Labour Party, the Jewish Socialist Group has attacked the "weaponising" of accusations of anti-Semitism by forces intent on undermining the leadership of Corbyn.
Likewise the group Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods worries that "the pro-Zionist lobby - Jewish and non-Jewish - deliberately and maliciously seeks to associate Jew-hatred with criticism of Israel in the public mind", despite the insistence by Corbyn's team that "anti-Semitism is a vile prejudice that is not permitted in the Labour Party" and its pledge to expel anyone found guilty of it.
The expulsions have taken on the character of a witch hunt. For instance, Jewish activist Tony Greenstein who has long campaigned against anti-Semitism in Palestine solidarity circles, has been accused of anti-Semitism and suspended from the Labour Party. The collection of scalps has emboldened supporters of Israel with the Britain Israel communications and Research Centre seeking to whip up animosity and tweeting followers to "save your pitch fork for Corbyn".
Such cynical political acts cheapen the grave charge of anti-Semitism. In this atmosphere where such allegations are used to silence political opponents, it is tempting to reject any and all accusations of anti-Semitism. This too must be guarded against - anti-Semitism needs to be tackled wherever it exists. In this battle, there is an urgent need to resist conflating
opposition to Israel with anti-Jewish racism.

David Landy is an assistant professor of sociology and Ronit Lentin is a retired associate professor of sociology at Trinity College Dublin

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 09:50 AM

Campaign Against Antisemitism issues report on British Muslims and antisemitism

12th April 2016

For at least twenty years, the British Jewish community has been out in front when it comes to interfaith work. As Britain's Muslim population has grown, British Jews assumed that interfaith models that led to huge advances in relations with British Christians, could apply just as well to relations with British Muslims. Indeed building bridges with British Muslims has become the focus of outreach work by British Jews.

Today, our analysis of the ICM survey of British Muslims for Channel 4 and Juniper Television shows that the gradual buildup of understanding and friendship between Britain's Jews and Muslims has been utterly eclipsed by growing antisemitism amongst British Muslims.

On every single count, British Muslims were more likely by far than the general British population to hold deeply antisemitic views. It is clear that many British Muslims reserve a special hatred for British Jews, rating Jews much less favourably than people of other religions or no religion, yet astonishingly British Muslims largely do not recognise antisemitism as a major problem.

It has long been suspected that sections of the British Muslim population harboured hatred towards British Jews. This survey goes some way to identifying pockets of prejudice, but it also shows that the prejudice is horrifyingly widespread.

From the ICM survey data made available by Channel 4 and Juniper Television, we have been able to identify some of the worst pockets of prejudice. Antisemitic British Muslims are more likely to be men, to be older than 35, to be social renters, to be in employment, to have been born outside Britain, to live south of the Midlands in England, or in Scotland, and they are overwhelmingly likely to sympathise with terrorism, violence and extremism.

The data is frustratingly limited in one some respects, and one in particular: it does not delve into the various political and religious movements that comprise the British Muslim population.

This data shows that Jews remain the 'canary in the coal mine', as they have been throughout history: those who harbour hatred of Jews also hate British society and sympathise with our most deadly enemies. Britain must confront rampant antisemitism within its Muslim population, but also amongst the general population, whose shocking views should be no less concerning simply because the views of British Muslims are worse.

Read the Report

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 11:42 AM

"Read the Report"
It's worth noting that The Campaign Against Antisemitism is an organisation that was set up specifically in 2014 to offset of the condemnation of Massacres, atrocities and potential war crimes carried out by Israel in Gaza, (avoided as being judged such by the efforts of the Israelis to have the International Criminal Court, also accused of "Antisemitism" discontinued)
Basically,the C.A.A. is an Israel support group which has co-operated with Israel to change the definition of 'Antisemitism' to include any criticism of Israel - making it virtually impossible to distinguish between real Antisemitism and condemnation of War crimes and atrocities by Israel.
Equating Israeli policy with The Jewish People as a whole is in itself Antisemitic by definition.
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Accepted definition by the European Parliament Working Group on Antisemitism
Anybody who accuses critics of Israel of being Antisemitic are, in fact Antisemitic - this includes the present Israeli regime.
Read the Irish Times article
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 01:30 PM

Campaign Against Antisemitism has analysed research undertaken by ICM Unlimited for Channel 4 and Juniper Television. We were not involved in the production of the research, and have not influenced its methodology.

Two surveys were undertaken: a survey of a representative sample of British Muslims and a representative survey of a sample of the general British population. ICM conducted face-to-face interviews of 1,081 British Muslims aged over 18 between 25th April and 31st May 2015. They then conducted telephone interviews of 1,008 members of the general British public aged over 18 between 5th June and 7th June 2015. In both cases, the data was weighted by age, gender, region and work status, to ensure that it was as representative as possible. The data was released in April 2016 in advance of a Channel 4 television programme based on the data.

The analysis in this document does not make up part of the Channel 4 programme; it represents a close reading of the ICM polling data with a view to better understanding the specific issue of Muslim antisemitism in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 16 - 02:54 PM

As I said, the Israelis have deliberately made it damn near impossible to distinguish between real Antisemitism and criticism of their crimes
They even describe Jews who critice their crimes ( Einsteing - the holocaust survivors, Jews for Justice, Rabbis for Peace) as "self-hating Jews"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 16 - 03:26 PM

Jim's Irish Times artical states,
" In this, they use an obsolete formulation from the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) which includes as a possible sign of anti-Semitism: "denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, eg, by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavour". The EUMC has since abandoned this wording as it was being used to launch attacks on critics of Israel, rather than to tackle real anti-Semitism."

That appears not to be true.
it is still current on the EUMC site.http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 06:41 PM

Keith, it's the Irish Times, no more needs to be said.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 16 - 07:49 PM

No surprise that, this is what the regressive left has become.

"Over 50 members of the British Labour Party have been suspended over anti-Semitic and racist remarks over the last two months, the Telegraph reported on Monday, nearly 40 more than publicly admitted by the party.

Labour suspended up to 20 members in the last two weeks alone, according to the report, which cited an unnamed senior source within the party, who added that the suspensions made public were just the "tip of the iceberg."

Haaretz

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 03:22 AM

David Landy (co-author Irish Times article) is national organizer of the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign and author of Jewish Identity and Palestinian Rights: Diaspora Jewish Opposition to Israel.
Electronic Intifada.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:01 AM

Why, at a time when Labour members in general, and the Parliamentary Labour Party in particular, should be uniting and waging non-stop war on the vilest, most deceitful and damaging Tory government ever inflicted on the United Kingdom, are they wittering on, attacking their own members and their leader, and wasting their combined energy over some perceived 'anti-semitism'?

Labour MPs were elected to oppose the Self-Servatives in Parliament. Time they got on with it, or found a different job. There's considerably more than enough to keep them fully occupied fighting Tory mis-rule, without indulging in stupid playground-games trying to unseat their own leader (who, incidentally, was elected in a landslide, by Labour Party members).

They should do what they were elected to do, or Foxtrot Oscar.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:13 AM

"David Landy (co-author Irish Times article) is national organizer of the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign and author of Jewish Identity and Palestinian Rights: Diaspora Jewish Opposition to Israel."
So what - don't those who support the Palestinians have a voice?
Ronit Lentin, the other author, is Jewish, born in the newly-formed State of Israel
What's your point Keith?
Do you actually have anything to say on the points made by the article or would you rather nit-pick possible errors?
It suggests that Israel is using "Antisemitism" as a catch-all defence of its criminal behaviour and goes to great pains to suggest why.
How about dealing with that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:28 AM

So what - don't those who support the Palestinians have a voice?
They do.
What is your point.
We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. That is all.

They did say, " The EUMC has since abandoned this wording" but that exact wording is still on their site.
http://www.antisem.eu/projects/eumc-working-definition-of-antisemitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 May 16 - 04:42 AM

Keith, the reality of the matter is that the definition you like is no longer treated as a working definition except by those who want to muzzle criticism of Israel and its oppressive conduct - for example but not by way of limitation see - https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-lobby-uses-discredited-anti-semitism-definition-muzzle-debate/11716

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:27 AM

These definitions are still displayed on the current 'Zionism on the Web site' - the same as in the past in an expanded form
Jim Carroll

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries). Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property---such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries---are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews. Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:34 AM

"We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. That is all."
So being Palestinian presumes they are incapable of being neutral or objective, no matter who they are?
Bit racist doncha think?
You decline to comment on the co-author being an Israel - is that because the fact she was born in Israel makes her "objective and reliable"
To all articles have to undergo you racial purity test before we can take them seriously?
bit of a blast from the past, eh what!!
The Nazis were defeated, South Africal Apartheid is Dead and the Good ol' South is emancipated - hopefully, their ideologies went with them, but not here apparently.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 06:56 AM

Richard, that is produced by representatives from all counties of the EU as indicative of antisemitism.
I would hardly expect the antisemetic site "Electronic Intifada" to agree.
Is that your only evidence for saying,
"the reality of the matter is that the definition you like is no longer treated as a working definition?"