BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 07:00 AM

"We are entitled to know that it was not written by a neutral, objective observer. "
So anyone from Palestine, no matter who they are, are incapable of being "neutral or objective" - do I have that right.
You decline to comment on the co-author - is that because she is Israeli and therefore "neutral or objective"?
Bit racist, doncha think?
I pointed out the fact that the article by 'The Campaign Against Antisemitism' was questionable not because its authors were Jews, but because the organisation was actually set up to defend Israeli atrocities and war crimes - not the Jewish people but the behaviour of the Israeli Regime - who contributes to its upkeep.

These definitions are still displayed on the current 'Zionism on the Web site' - the same as the old one in an expanded form
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries). Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property---such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries---are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews. Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 07:10 AM

So anyone from Palestine, no matter who they are, are incapable of being "neutral or objective" - do I have that right.

No, but anti-Israel Palestinian activists are by definition not neutral.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 08:19 AM

Where does it suggest that either of these authors are "anti-Israeli"
Those supporting Israeli policy are "anti Palestinian" by definition are incapably of neutrality and objctivity, so we discount what all of them have to say, is that right?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 10:32 AM

Those supporting Israeli policy are "anti Palestinian" by definition are incapably of neutrality and objctivity, so we discount what all of them have to say, is that right?

You would not accept the view of such a person as objective and neutral about the motivation and tactics of the Palestinians.
You always challenge anything quoted from such people as being inadmissible to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 16 - 12:42 PM

Not true Keith - I have questioned their opinions - I have never rejected their views on the basis of their race, as you have here.
No more dialogue Keith - once again, you have plainly demonstrated your attitude to other races.
Bye-eee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 16 - 12:48 PM

Keith - ok.. you're the OP.. it's your thread... but weren't we supposed to be discussing the Labour party...??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 16 - 02:16 PM

Yes.
I was not going to pursue it any further either.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 May 16 - 05:46 PM

Trouble is that, for all his undoubted virtues, Jim just can't help transforming any thread with a political slant into a denunciation of Israel: it's a King Charles's Head of his. As that character in Shaw's You Never Can Tell might have said: 'He thinks it isn't but it is'. Admittedly Israel was intro'd by Les in 3rd post: but just look at the truculent tone of Jim's instant rejoinder in the 4th, & the way the thread inevitably progressed thereafter!!

Didn't mean to maintain the drift. Just saying

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:12 PM

A prominent British Jew's explanation for the party's problems.

"Why the Labour Party Won't Confront British Muslim anti-Semitism

Too many Labour politicians cravenly adopted the anti-Semitic tropes and anti-Israel demonization they think will get them British Muslim votes, rather than standing up to the prejudice that exists in the community."

Baroness Deech is an independent peer in the House of Lords. A lawyer, she was formerly Principal of St Anne's College Oxford, a governor of the BBC, chair of the Human Fertilisation & Embryology Authority and a trustee of the Rhodes Scholarships.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.717851
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.717851

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:38 PM

"Jim just can't help transforming any thread with a political slant into a denunciation of Israel:"
This subject is about how Israel is using the accusation of 'Antisemitism' as a defence or their behaviour and how that has affected British politics - and all because the lady doesn't like.... The International Criminal Court.
A little difficult to ignore that fact and all your somewhat pretentious waffle really doesn't alter that fact.
You may be happy to see the Jewish people blamed for Israeli crimes - personally, I find it offensive enough to comment on, but then again, that's me.
Perhaps you would like to respond to the article I put up - no/
I paid a flying visit to Manchester last week - you wouldn't believe what the "self-hating Jews" (quote) are saying there.
Thought not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 12:51 PM

I'm only quarter jew.. so I can only hate an arm or a leg...

But it's probably still enough to have won me a train ride to a n@zi 'work' camp...

I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning Israeli govt & military,
I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning any racism within the Labour party..
I feel entitled and unrestricted in criticising aspects of the Jewish & Muslim & Christian religions..
I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria
to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn.....

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 01:55 PM

I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn.....

So I take it you are in agreement with the Labour Party councillors who have been suspended for comparisons between Israel and Hitler, for stating that Israel funds ISIS and for calling for the "relocation" of Israelis.

Baroness Deech hits the regressive Left's nail on the head:

"Yes, there are right-wing anti-Semites and there are Holocaust deniers, but they have for long been treated as buffoons of no importance — which is true — and being of the "Right" they are not taken seriously, whereas to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof."

"it's curious how many anti-Zionists cannot refrain from bringing Hitler and Nazism into every discussion, as a way of coloring perceptions of Israel"

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:02 PM

"I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning Israel"
Amen to all that PFR
"Labour Party councillors who have been suspended for comparisons between Israel and Hitler"
As did a former head of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families - and a lorra, lorra Israelis and Jews inside and outside of Israel - Einstein and his mates described the extremist behaviour of Israel as Fascism
All Antisemitic, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:03 PM

"So I take it you are in agreement with ....."


Well.. of course you can presume to predict what what any other individual might believe in or agrees with..
You can also rightly or falsely continue to imply accusations of guilt by association..
or imagine any thing you like,
if you are that intent on undermining and discrediting your perceived opponents ..
You can also be completely wrong and talk as much as you like out your arse.. it's all entirely your prerogative....

Btw.. the word "zionist" has never existed in my vocabulary for any purpose...

This might even be the first time I have ever written it...????

.. and back on topic of crazy conspiracy theories..

"Israel funds ISIS" might not be totally too far fetched to be the basis of a pop culture fictional satirical paranoid political thriller movie...

Then again... neither would "Covert Mossad agents fermenting a proxy political war between Jews & Muslims on UK soil, irrespective of collateral damage"...

Add Russell Crowe, John Hurt, Helen Mirren, Benedict Cumberbatch.. and maybe Ridley Scott directing.....

Producers would be throwing $$$$$ to green light the project



Take your pick of conspiracies.. or imagine some more...

Any ideas can exist in an over fertile paranoid imagination..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:24 PM

As did a former head of Mossad and the Holocaust survivors and their families - and a lorra, lorra Israelis and Jews inside and outside of Israel - Einstein and his mates described the extremist behaviour of Israel as Fascism
All Antisemitic, of course


Once again the Baroness hits the nail on the head:

"That in itself is an anti-Semitic conclusion, one that collapses the ability to call out anti-Semitic comments by virtue of its 'Jewish' imprimatur. If one black person were to defend slavery would that make it acceptable? Would that person immediately be perceived as the spokesperson for all black people? Of course not. It is only when some renegade Jews can be found to attack Zionism and Jewish history that they become the representative Jewish voice — Gerald Kaufman, Norman Finkelstein, Avi Shlaim, Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappe, Gilad Atzmon — too many, regrettably, with their own reasons for what they say."

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 03:33 PM

Well.. of course you can presume to predict what what any other individual might believe in or agrees with..

So, do you believe it's all staged hysteria whipped up by reactionary arseholes or not, I am confused.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 04:18 PM

I don't believe.. I try to question...

I consider reasonable possibilities / probabilities as objectively as I can based on available reliable/unreliable media sourced information..
and my own experiece and judgement.

Therefore, I consider it not impossible that 'unknown' agencies acting on their own agendas
may have quite possibly ignited the sparks of this recent strategic smear attack on Corbyn's leadership.

Feeding the frenzy of right wing media exaggerated outrage and hostile anti Corbyn Labour stooges.

As a consequence drawing in very credible commentators whose well intended comments & involvement
are fanning the flames and helping perpetrate a fake high profile scandal.
Way out of proportion than these issues deserve at this precise time so close to elections..

It's as if 'some people' 'somewhere' desperately need the UK public's minds to be more focused on Israel / Jew versus Muslim issues,
than our own immediate shared communities social welfare / Health / Education / etc / problems...????


Distract, Divide and Rule...

.. weird old world... innit...!!!??? 😕


Hopefully not too unrealistic an appraisal...???

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 04:35 PM

I don't believe.. I try to question...

Pardon me for taking your use of the word condemning in your statement I feel entitled and unrestricted in condemning all the reactionary arseholes who are whipping up staged hysteria to fuck up support and votes for a labour Party lead by Corbyn..... to mean that you must believe that reactionary arseholes are whipping up staged hysteria rather than you are questioning that fact. The subtlety of your use of semantics escaped me as I am anti-semantic.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 05:23 PM

"you must believe that reactionary arseholes are whipping up staged hysteria

Yes.. that much to me is highly probable.. to such an extent I find it hard to disbelieve...

But not all those playing a part are reactionary arseholes..

Some are otherwise respectable credible figures, getting swept up in this hysterical smear campaign..
and opening themselves up to being manipulated by the arseholes
to be used to fit in with be seen to add support to their arshole agendas.....


"The subtlety of your use of semantics escaped me as I am anti-semantic"

My excuse is even simpler.. I'm just not very good at writing these days....

It's quarter of a century since I was a post grad student of 'concepts of belief and ideology' .. or some such clever dick humanities field of education..

.. analysis of media and propaganda being a key element...

But that was then....

Now I'm older, worn out by all the negativity and disappointments life throws out and rarely get much free quality time for stimulating thinking...

Though I still trust my judgement to smell attacks intended to destabilise a party
that exists to at least try to fight the odds stacked up against ordinary folks having a fair safe decent standard of living...

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 16 - 09:36 PM

I'm a very simple man. You're an antisemite if you demonise a person because he is a Jew. You are not an antisemite because you criticise his country, his actions, his government or his dad. In the latter cases, you may well be wrong, but you are not being antisemitic. Israel wishes to be regarded as a Jewish state. Personally, I don't think that's wise, when a quarter of its population are not Jewish. Equally, I don't think it's wise to criticise "Israel." Far better to be specific and criticise the Israeli regime, specifying the actions it takes that you see as objectionable, which are manifold. If you state that Israel should be wiped off the map, you're a fool, because that is neither possible nor desirable, but it isn't an an antisemitic statement if you mean that you object to the creation of the state of Israel after WW2. If you mean that Jews should be wiped off the map, that's different. If you say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, you're being an idiot but you're not being antisemitic. You are being antisemitic if you say that Jews are like Nazis. Anyway, that's how I see it. I don't think Ken Livingstone said anything that was technically wrong, but I do think that his timing was execrable. I sort of like Ken, but Christ knows what he was thinking of when he said what he did.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 04 May 16 - 09:49 PM

Ha, ha, ha Shaw defining what makes an antisemite for us.

What was that Baroness Deech said bout the "Left" again.....oh yeah:

"to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof."

She must be an avid reader of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 16 - 10:10 PM

Er, I said, "Anyway, that's how I see it." And thanks for falling into the trap and revealing yourself to be that obnoxious anonymous Guest-troll that suddenly disappeared when the no-guest rule was brought in. Funny how you've suddenly reappeared, isn't it. I didn't quite expect it to work so quickly. Naturally, you'll deny it. Which is what cowards do. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 May 16 - 10:10 PM

"What was that Baroness Deech said bout the "Left" again.....oh yeah:

"to be of the "Left" is to be righteous, sanctimonious and beyond criticism or reproof."

I would hazard a guess that the Baroness knows f@ck all about the realities and families of ordinary hard working grass roots labour voters and supporters
living in provincial council estates like the one I grew up on... 😣

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:04 AM

Baroness Deech She was a member of the Jewish Leadership Council until 2010.

She is the daughter of the late historian and journalist, Josef Fraenkel (b. 1903, Ustrzyki Dolne, Poland) who fled Vienna and then Prague from the Nazis. Several other members of her family were murdered in Nazi concentration camps during World War II. Her first cousin is Maurice Frankel, Director of the UK Campaign for Freedom of Information.

She is not an inertial observer. Her remarks cited are over a year old. On the other hand, it is a fact that over the last day of so, Israeli F16s have been pounding Gaza - while those in Gaza have scarcely a bow and arrow to defend themselves with. The IDF summarily execute Palestinians including teenagers, manhandle women, and arrest children under 10. Israeli forces kill about 160 Palestinians for every Israeli killed by a Palestinian. Israel continues to annex land, even past its war gains of 1967.

Do you realise that in 1910 around 90% of those living in the land that is now occupied by Israel were non-Jewish?

Finkelstein and Walker are quite right.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:09 AM

From 2013 - http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/01/all-6-former-israeli-secret-service-chiefs-slam-occupation-of-palestine.html

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:10 AM

Today the 5th May - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/IDF-general-in-bombshell-speech-Israel-today-shows-signs-of-1930s-Germany-453142?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:17 AM

Have a look, Keith, at the composition of the advisory board of the panel that adopted the obviously and irrationally over-expansive definition of antisemitism that you like. All have a vested interest in an over-broad definition. http://www.antisem.eu/advisory-board/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 12:22 AM

Oh, and, Keith, you like the Times of Israel, don't you? Here they report that the definition that you like (despite its obvious flaws) was dropped in 2013. http://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-drops-its-working-definition-of-anti-semitism/

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:01 AM

"Once again the Baroness hits the nail on the head:"
Where does the Baroness's make the many thousand of Jews, Israelis and throughout the world, who have openly criticised Israeli policy, including high-ranking members of the Israeli security forces, soldiers, politicians, churchmen, scientists, writers, intellectuals, medical workers........ "Antisemitic".
To accuse anybody who criticises Israeli of being Antisemite is not only an Antisemitic act, but it puts the Jewish people as a whole in danger.
Israel's behavior in adopting this as a tactic to avoid being tries for war crimes and atrocities is a major contributor to the present rise in Antisemitism - it has also contributed to the fact that terrorists who target Jewish establishments and people have been told that the atrocities carried out by Israel are the fault of the Jews.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:15 AM

Richard, if it was dropped three years ago, why is it still on the website unchanged?

All have a vested interest in an over-broad definition (of antisemitism).

The only vested interest I see is that many are Jews.
Is that what you meant?

Steve,
If you say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, you're being an idiot but you're not being antisemitic.

You are according to the EUMC working definition.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:48 AM

I don't care really, Keith. My view is that it is wrong-headed and unconstructive in the extreme to say that Israel is acting like Nazi Germany, basically because it isn't, and because the remark is likely to inflame. It is fairly likely to be said by someone who has antisemitic sentiments, but it is in itself antisemitic only if the context of the remark is that Israel acts that way because Israelis are Jews. Antisemitic means anti-Jew, not anti-what politicians happen to decide to do. That's my opinion, Keith, along with the reasoning. As ever, your opinion is not your own but that of a higher authority to whom you're appealing.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 16 - 04:59 AM

Can you not read, Keith - "Oh, and, Keith, you like the Times of Israel, don't you? Here they report that the definition that you like (despite its obvious flaws) was dropped in 2013. http://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-drops-its-working-definition-of-anti-semitism/"

And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain. It's not rocket science. And I'd point out that you frequently discount any opinion expressed by an Arab or Muslim merely because they are Arabs or Muslims - or even seek to defend Arabs or Muslims. It is you who is a racist.

As to offensive behaviour - I repeat - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/IDF-general-in-bombshell-speech-Israel-today-shows-signs-of-1930s-Germany-453142?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 05:05 AM

And I'd point out that you frequently discount any opinion expressed by an Arab or Muslim merely because they are Arabs or Muslims -

I would point out that I have never done any such thing.


And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain.

Are you saying that those Jews used the board as a means to gain more influence for Jews?
Is there a problem with Jews having too much influence?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 05:15 AM

"I would point out that I have never done any such thing."
Worse than that
"Richard, if it was dropped three years ago, why is it still on the website unchanged?
"It remains on display on the current Zionism on line site" and that aspect of the defintion has never been challenged.
Israel claims there is no currently accepted official definition of Antisemitism so blaming the Jews for Israeli terrorism seems a pretty fair one as a rule of thumb.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 06:00 AM

"Are you saying that those Jews used the board as a means to gain more influence for Jews?
Is there a problem with Jews having too much influence?"

I didn't see Richard saying "those Jews" - did you, Keith? Would it have helped had he said "those representatives of Israel's interests" or "those who were pro-Israel?" Your manner of debate is disingenuous and dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 May 16 - 06:44 AM

So it's ok and acceptable then to admire and promote the Baroness's smug dismissive disparaging prejudiced sweeping statements about 'the left'...

..whilst sweeping negative published statements putting down any other whole classification of diverse people
can justifiably get the culprit in a huge mess of trouble and condemnation in the news media....?????? 😕

funny old world... innit... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 07:12 AM

The Israeli Embassy in Ireland had been systematically targeting critics of Israel, on occasion, reaching the level of hysteria following particularly vicious acts of atrocity by its regime.
They have gleefully jumped on the Anti-Labour bandwagon and Israeli are now mounting a campaign to debunk Landin and Ronin's relatively non-confrontational article.
This interesting letter appeared in the Irish Times this morning:

Criticism of Israel v anti-Semitism
Sir, - The current crisis facing the Labour Party in the UK over Ken Livingstone's comments have brought anti-Semitism into focus.
In this light, the piece by David Landy and Ronit Lentin (Opinion, May 2nd) is a timely insight into the lengths the Israeli state will go to in order to tarnish critics of its policies.
Europe has a troubled record on anti-Semitism and thus it is vital that, on any occasion it manifests itself, it needs to be dealt with abruptly and forcibly. However the accusation of anti-Semitism, when abused, is a powerful one which can ruin a career and render solid arguments impotent.
In recent times the Israeli government and its supporters, under pressure from the success of the BDS (boycotts, divestment and sanctions) movement, have begun to throw the accusation of anti-Semitism liberally at anybody who dares question its policies and stands up for justice for the Palestinian people. Not only does this apply to non-Jews but also to the many Jews who are vocal critics of the Israeli state, such as the noted US academic Norman Finkelstein who lost many family members in the concentration camps.
This is a dangerous precedent as it not only diminishes the fight against anti-Semitism but also undermines rational arguments for a just and peaceful solution to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
There is a serious vacuum in the peace process into which extremism is rushing on both sides. Creating an atmosphere whereby critical analysis of the behaviour of the Israeli state is subject to accusations of anti-Semitism does nothing to help find a secure future for Israel or Palestine.
-Yours, etc,
BARRY WALSH, Blackrock, Cork.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 16 - 08:02 AM

But there is antisemitism on the left. The campaign to exclude Israelis, and only Israelis, from the global academic, sporting, artistic and economic community is antisemitic. It singles out Israel for unique punishment and it finds all Israelis, and the Jews who are said to support them, guilty of the crimes, real or imagined, of their state. Huge and emotional hostility to Israel creates antisemitic discourse and fosters an institutional antisemitism of norms and practices in the left. This has been manifested recently in a number of clear examples.

    The election to leader of the Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn:

       Presented a show on Press TV, Iran's antisemitic propaganda channel.
       Was Patron of the "Palestine Solidarity Campaign" which fights for a boycott of Israel and which tolerates antisemitism within its ranks.
       Says that Hamas and Hezbollah are dedicated to the good of the Palestinian people and to social and political justice.
       Jumped to the defence of antisemites, Raed Salah who indulged in medieval blood libel and Stephen Sizer who said that Israel was behind 9/11.
       Does not say anything when a 911 truther and associate of David Duke, who he's sharing a platform with, defends Palestinian suicide bombing.
       Continued to support "Deir Yassin Remembered" even when it was well known that it was run by a Holocaust Denier.
       Agreed to speak alongside Carlos Latuff, 2nd prize winner in Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial cartoon competition.
       Agreed to speak alongside Azzam Tamimi, who said that he'd like to have been a suicide bomber against Israel.
       Addressed a LaRouche front organisation in Australia.
       Called for an official inquiry into "pro-Israel" influence in the Foreign Office.
       Celebrated the anniversary of the Iranian revolution at an event called to "commemorate the auspicious anniversary of the victory of the Islamic Revolution in Iran".

    Norman Finkelstein's cartoon depicting the ethnic cleansing of Israel and the 'transportation' of all Jews there to America was shared on Facebook by Naz Shah, who was to become a Labour MP and also by a number of Labour councillors including Blackburn mayor Salim Mulla, who also said that Israel was behind ISIS, and Ilyas Aziz who also posted images appearing to call for Jews to "stop drinking Gaza blood".

    Ken Livingstone:

       Said that Hitler supported Zionism. What better way to bait Jews than to compare them to Nazis?
       In 1982 the paper that Livingstone edited ran a cartoon depicting the Prime Minister of Israel, Menachem Begin, wearing a Nazi uniform and doing a straight-arm salute, standing on a pile of skulls.
       Hosted Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi at City Hall. Qaradawi says that Hitler put the Jews in their place; he described the Holocaust as both exaggerated and also as divine punishment.
       On March 21 2012, a group of Jewish Labour supporters reported that at "various points in the discussion Ken used the words 'Zionist', 'Jewish' and 'Israeli', interchangeably, as if they meant the same, and did so in a pejorative manner." Livingstone told the group that Jews are rich and so are not likely anyway to vote Labour.
       Ken Livingstone was paid to present a programme on Iran's antisemitic propaganda channel, Press TV.
       Persistently put down a Jewish journalist by accusing him of being like a German war criminal.
    A co-chair of Oxford University Labour Club resigned, saying that a 'large proportion' of members had 'some kind of problem with Jews'. Jews were belittled by the epithet 'Zios' and taunted by the song: 'Bombs over Tel Aviv'.
    The election of Malia Bouattia as President of NUS. She supports the campaign of murder against Jewish civilians in Israel. She refers to a university with a strong Jewish society is a 'Zionist outpost'. She talks about "mainstream Zionist-led media outlets". She supports a boycott of Israel but of nowhere else.
    John Mann, Chair of the All-Party Group against Antisemitism: "I've had a number of highly precise threats of violence. I'm going to report this to the police. They are threatening me with physical assault — 'when I see you I will be punching you' and worse than that. This shows the mind-set of the mob."
    Muhammed Butt, who is the Lead for Equalities at London Councils, shared a clip on social media that appeared to show a young girl from the Palestinian Authority in a conflict with an Israeli soldier. The clip was captioned at the bottom with the words, "Israel is a terrorist state like ISIS."
    Shah Hussain, a Labour councillor in Burnley, tweeted at Israeli footballer Yossi Benayoun: "you are a complete and utter plonker, you and your country doing the same thing Hitler did to ur race in ww2".
    Khadim Hussain, a Labour councillor and a former Lord Mayor of Bradford, resigned from the party after sharing a Facebook post that said: "Your school education system only tells you about Anne Frank and the six million Zionists that were killed by Hitler."
    John McAuliffe: "The Holocaust has been the most useful political tool of the Zionist government in Israel to establish a financial racket in the West, whereby Israel receives an unlimited sum for the duration of its existence."
    Gerry Downing called for Marxists to 'address the Jewish question'.
    In 2011, Labour MP Sir Gerald Kaufman turned to a neighbour on the Commons benches as pro-Israel MP Louise Ellman rose to speak and muttered: 'Here we are, the Jews again'. He has a record of talking about the influence of 'Jewish millionaires' in UK politics and how the Israeli government exploits Holocaust guilt as justification for their murder of Palestinians.
    In 2014, Vicki Kirby, a Labour Parliamentary candidate, was warned by the party for posting antisemitic tweets. 'We invented Israel when saving them from Hitler, who now seems to be their teacher,' she wrote. She also asked why ISIS was not attacking the 'real oppressor', 'evil' Israel. She also tweeted that Jews have "big noses" and "slaughter the oppressed".
    In 2011 Labour MP Paul Flynn had said that Matthew Gould, Britain's first Jewish ambassador to Israel, had "divided loyalties".
    In 2003, Tam Dalyell, accused the Prime Minister Tony Blair of "being unduly influenced by a cabal of Jewish advisers".
    There are press reports that Labour has secretly suspended fifty more Labour members for issues connected with antisemitism.
    Labour's Murad Qureshi, who has already served 12 years on the London Assembly, re-tweeted the claim that Katie Hopkins "is proof positive you can get away with deeply offending anyone in this country as long as they're not Jewish."

It is wrong to say that there is no antisemitism in the Labour Party, and that this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by Jews, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.

These are not random bad apples in a Labour barrel. They are important because they are manifestations of a way that many people, including the leader, thinks about Israel and the Jews who relate to Israel.

David Hirsh

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 May 16 - 08:55 AM

First of all - I haven't a clue who David Hirsh is - and why should I... ???.

Secondly it's not clear if any of that is you talking Bobad, or if it's entirely the words of Hirsh.

But most significantly, it actually serves to deepen my suspicions that
" this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by pro Israeli Government regime supporters, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.


It's seriously wrong that a bunch of organized vociferous intellectual pro Israeli zealots
may be so maliciously intent on discrediting and punishing the UK Labour Party.
Not giving a shit about the callous harm that will be caused to many thousands of ordinary hard pressed hard up Labour voting families....

Right I'll be away for the rest of the day taking my elderly mum to see a Doctor at an provincial health centre,
which is under resourced and under staffed, and at near crisis breaking point.
I expect we will be queuing for some time.

Not that the Baroness and Mr Hirsh probably care that much for our day to day living conditions.... 😫

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: bobad
Date: 05 May 16 - 09:09 AM

this current crisis is a storm, manufactured by pro Israeli Government regime supporters, to silence criticism of Israel and to benefit the Tories.

David Hirsh (born 29 September 1967) is a Lecturer in Sociology at Goldsmiths College, University of London, and the founder of Engage, a campaign against academic boycotts of Israel.[1]

Hirsh is a graduate of City University, London. He holds an M.A. in Philosophy and Social Theory and a PhD from University of Warwick. He wrote his dissertation on Crimes Against Humanity and International Law.[2]

Hirsh won the Philip Abrams Prize for the best first book in sociology from the British Sociological Association in 2004 for his book Law Against Genocide: Cosmopolitan trials. The book, an argument concerning the significance of "cosmopolitan law", also contains a full account of the trial of Anthony Sawoniuk in Britain in 1999 for crimes committed as part of the Holocaust in Belarus in 1942.

As a student of contemporary antisemitism, Hirsh is known for coining the term "Livingstone Formulation," after its effective use by the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone. In Hirsh's formulation, when an individual like Livingstone, with alleged antisemitic attitudes is confronted with this allegation, he immediately reverses the charge, accusing his accuser of "playing the antisemitic card" to stifle debate

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 09:43 AM

David Hirsch is an activist for Israeli policy, particicularly opposing the boycott of Israeli goods)
"But there is antisemitism on the left"
All those points have been answered and have nothing to do with The Left, which basically adherse to an anti-racist policy (exceptions to every shade of political opinion, of course)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 10:22 AM

Those are not the words of bobad. Google any selection from his post and you'll find that he's copied and pasted stuff from all over the place with just a bit of light editing. He has form, both as bobad and as the anonymous former guest who plagued any thread remotely connected to Israel/Palestine/Islam with bigotry and slurs. It's either copy and pasting a load of stuff or else it's the kind of sniping we've seen from him in this thread. The style, the content and the modus operandi are exactly the same.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 10:40 AM

From his posts

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:08 PM

Steve

I didn't see Richard saying "those Jews" - did you, Keith?

He said, "And the vested interest of the members of that board ..."

The board was made up of Jewish groups.
Those were the Jews he said were using it for "more influence."

Jim,
"It remains on display on the current Zionism on line site"

Does it?
It also remains on the EUMC site, which suggests it is still current.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:10 PM

"It also remains on the EUMC "
Don't get your point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:28 PM

EUMC should not leave it on their site if it is not in force.
What was your point about some "Zionist" site?

Why are you and Steve making this personal against Bobad?
Can we not just discuss the issues like he does?

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:38 PM

Bobad/anonymous ex-Guest does not "discuss issues," Keith. He copies and pastes and he snipes. If you disagree, give me an example of his "discussing issues," please. I'm not exactly surprised that you ally yourself with him, by the way. Speaks volumes, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:47 PM

Do you ever wonder professor why many people on this site have such a low opinion of you.

How can you equate one person saying "And the vested interest of the members of that board" to someone saying "those Jews"

Shhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 02:50 PM

Steve, look at this post of Jim's.

Easter Rising - April 24-29, 1916
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 30 Apr 16 - 03:38 AM

He merges a paste from wiki with his own text with no quotes or accreditation.

Why pick on Bobad?

He is using quotes to argue his case on the issues.
He does not make personal accusations against anyone.
Please stop doing it yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: (UK) Whither the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 16 - 03:01 PM

Rag,
How can you equate one person saying "And the vested interest of the members of that board" to someone saying "those Jews"

Because thes are the groups that comprise the board.
All Jewish except the first one.

INTER-PARLIAMENTARY COALITION FOR COMBATING ANTISEMITISM        

EUROPEAN JEWISH CONGRESS

B'NAI BRITH INTERNATIONAL        

CEJI – A JEWISH CONTRIBUTION TO AN INCLUSIVE EUROPE

Richard said,
"And the vested interest of the members of that board is that the the wider the definition of antisemitism, the more influence they can gain."

What vested interest could the non-Jewish group have?
None.
He was accusing those Jewish groups of using the board to increase Jewish influence.