BS: Demise of the Labour Party

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM

Gosh !

History being "revised" before our very eyes, amazing !!

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 04:53 AM

Jim,
I seem to remember not so long ago your defending military officers who, at a time when hostile forces within Britain were threatening armed violence against British citizens, declared they were not prepared to act to prevent that violence.

They did no such thing.
They just refused to use armed force to make a community exit the UK when they wanted to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 04:04 AM

"Did you have a family when you got on your bike Jom? "
Are you making my point for me?
I wasn't married, if that's what you mean, but I had a mother and young sisters who depended to a degree on me - I had recently lost my father.
My background was the North of England, my friends and activities were based there, I liked living there - nobody should ever have the right to demand that I move elsewhere because the system we live in can no longer provide work for vast sweeps of Britain
At that time the North east and Northwest of Britain were permanent unemployment black-spots, the Midlands were not much better, the work was centred in the South-east which was the only place in Britain where it was readily available.
Since then that has intensified tenfold since Thatcher drew a line across Britain, virtually abandoning everywhere outside the South East.
" I have given you my suggestions on what to do with them twice now"
Where - I ignore nothing.
Your account of the Scandinavian model, based on social co-operation between workers organisations and government bodies a gross distortion of what happens there and is impractical here anyway as historically, the British establishment has refused to recognise workers representation as part of governance - Thatcher deliberately destroyed what little there was of that.
Britain has opted to force people to take whatever menial job is available - slavery without the chains.
We live in a stable society where people have established permanent identities in specific areas - we are no longer a nomadic nation and haven't been since the Neolithic period, yet twots like you would turn us into hunter-gatherers all over again.
We are human beings, not chess-pieces to be moved about to suit an economy favouring as small, privileged group who have become the sole beneficiary of the riches of society.
Your scummy argument that those who will not revert to itinerancy to find work should be either forced to by law or starved into accepting anything, whether it suits our capabilities or meets our needs, or not - which is the logic of your argument - it is primitive and savage situation you propose.
You say we should move where the work is, yet you refuse to tell us where we are going to find somewhere to live in areas where accommodation costs are directly linked to employment - hobo encampments like the Hungry Thirties in America, workingmens' hostels, sleeping rough.....?
Take your hospital porters example - because of the essential job they do, they can never take action to improve their conditions - doesn't matter that they can't feed their families on what they are paid.
Same with teachers
Same with Nurses
Same with ambulance drivers, or public transport workers.... how far do you want to go.
Same with anybody we rely on in society
Take what we choose to give you and get on with it - you have no say in your lives.
I seem to remember not so long ago your defending military officers who, at a time when hostile forces within Britain were threatening armed violence against British citizens, declared they were not prepared to act to prevent that violence.
Didn't those officers fall within the description "essential"?
You are a running joke - please keep running - it really is quite entertaining.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 01:18 PM

Hospital Porters, Jom, whether you were admitted to hospital, or not, or whether you could be buried or not had something to do with crossing Picket Lines.

22,511 people voted for Boris Johnson when he became MP for Uxbridge and South Ruislip in 2015 (He polled 50.2%, or %50.2 of the total votes cast). Haven't gone through the same exercise with May's Cabinet but Cameron's consisted 94%, or %94, of people who had been elected to the House of Commons - I would imagine that May's Cabinet would be similar.

Did you have a family when you got on your bike Jom? Probably not. Mine stayed in the family home and I travelled to work and lived away from home as and when I had to.

The "scroungers"? - I have given you my suggestions on what to do with them twice now. As you seem to have ignored what was said I see no point whatsoever in repeating them a third time.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 08:46 AM

.. it also convinced me never, ever, to get on a motorbike...

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 08:44 AM

I was a hospital porter [special duties orderly - my formal title] in 1980.

Aged 21 - no formal training, just handed a uniform and told to follow a nurse, do what she says, and 'get on with it'...

Mostly pushing wheelchairs, and taking amputees to the toilet.

Taking blokes with both arms amputated to the bog was probably where the 'special duties' part of my job title applied....

Too many young blokes had lost limbs on motorbikes, and in the army in Ireland.

That job convinced me to get back into education and do a humanities focused degree.....

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 08:33 AM

"good will" of a Hospital Porter"
rather than that of predatory bankers and crooked and incompetent self-serving politicians, you mean, how partisanly patronising can you get?
Hospital Porters may not have the experience, but they tend to have more contact with and care for human beings as do the people whose arses you have rammed your head up.
It was politicians and predators that have fucked up the health service, not those who actually have to clean up their mess on a daily basis.
"Fewer than 200 people voted for Theresa May for PM."
Did anybody vote for Boris or any of the other no-marks who now hold the fate of Britain in their hands
And they claim Brexit hasn't balled up Britain....!
Jim Carroll
Still no word on accommodation fotr the itinerant work force or what to do with "scroungers" I see
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 08:12 AM

Fewer than 200 people voted for Theresa May for PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 03:43 AM

Shaw was rabbiting on, on another thread about the percentages required to put people in positions of power. I would draw his attention to the membership numbers of the UNITE Trades Union then draw his attention to the minute portion of that membership who actually voted to elect its leaders. These are the people he wishes to be re-empowered, these are the people who thought that the Trades Unions should dictate policy to the elected Government of the United Kingdom in the 1970s. Shaw conveniently forgets the days when it depended upon the "good will" of a Hospital Porter whether or not your operation was performed or indeed if you were admitted to hospital. He forgets that in Liverpool the Royal Navy were approached regarding mass burials at sea because bodies were piling up in hospital morgues and could not be interred or cremated. Wonderful time the 1970s, all power cuts, the three day week and Healy having to go cap in hand to the IMF for a bail-out - all down to wicked capitalists my arse.

Reading the last few posts from the "Labour faithful" you realise just what a bunch of dinosaurs they are - world's changed lads, time you caught up.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 12:56 PM

Denise Healey - Denise Skinner - or maybe denise Young Socialist lady I used to knock around with in Liverpool in my sadly long-gone misspent youth
Those were the days, my friend!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 11:18 AM

Btw.. anyone know a lefty woman called Denise...???

My brain tries to compensate for my poor reading eyesight
and keeps telling me this thread is called

"Denise of the Labour Party"....

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 11:13 AM

I have vague memories of being involved with "Unemployed Workers Union" back in the early - mid 80s

Just googled to see what came up, re the present...

might be stuff worth reading if I find time later....???

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 11:07 AM

The unions have been emasculated by decades of Thatcherism and Blairism.

And Reaganism and Buehish this side of the pond. Same situation.

We need the unions more than ever in order to stop this country from descending into near-slavery.

Amen. But the average U.S. worker is completely clueless: hence The Trumpshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 10:44 AM

The unions have been emasculated by decades of Thatcherism and Blairism. The consequences have been bogus apprenticeships, millions forced to declare that they're "self-employed," unsocial hours payments slashed, job security a thing of the past, work-life balance destroyed for millions of people, a rise in workplace abuse and bullying, a boom in low-paid part-time and seasonal work, a million on zero-hours contracts, pensions devastated and pay frozen for years. That's the legacy of the right-wing war against trade unions. Labour started with trade unions and should seek always to re-empower them. No worker exercisings his or her right to withdraw their labour ever "held the country to ransom." That has always been done by greedy capitalists and multinationals. We need the unions more than ever in order to stop this country from descending into near-slavery. We are already some way down that road.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 10:40 AM

"The unions are irrelevant to millions of people in this country, "
Yup - the ones with no job, that would be!
British workers have never need a Trades Union to protect them from the indifference of politicians as they do now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 10:26 AM

After watching her live announcement to run in opposition to Corbyn, and a late night interview on News Night;
I'm even more convinced now that whoever persuaded and convinced Angela Seagull
that she would be a more electable leader and win over the British public to become Prime Minister,
has a severely twisted wicked cruel sense of humour...


... and should join mudcat as a member, because he or she would fit in very well here.... 😈

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 10:07 AM

The unions are irrelevant to millions of people in this country, and Labour needs to move on and restructure to reflect the fact most of the workforce is not unionised.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 08:31 AM

DEMISE OF THE IRISH LABOUR PARTY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 05:22 AM

I must say I share your views on that. I dislike authoritarian behaviour from the left. Too reminiscent of Stalin and Mao. But let's stick with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 02:23 AM

I've been a member since end 2014, and branch organiser since last year. What's the point in getting potential activists engaged if they are being treated like this by the national party. They do not have to apologise to those who turn up tonight because they haven't got their meeting cancellation email in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 08:07 PM

Well I joined last September for £1.96 per month so I get to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 04:24 PM

Or leave and start going to folk clubs again.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 03:22 PM

Who actually understands who, and how are they, trying to 'possibly' rig the election by pricing out new members from 3 to 25 quid,
and not allowing anyone to vote who wasn't a member before February.


Angela Seagulll sounded very much in favour of this move....

Last night the mrs said, she really wants to join and vote this time, 10 mins later we heard a brief mention on the news about the 'apparent' vote rigging....???


she later read a comment later on twitter, that joining a union if you are not already a member,
might be a way to combat the 'alleged' rigging....????

The wife is already a Union member.

I'm unemployable, and not.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 03:13 PM

Stay and fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 02:43 PM

The Labour Party may be about to lose a committed member who, over the last two years, has put in hundreds of hours of voluntary campaigning due to the NEC not allowing local meetings to take place until after the leadership election.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 03:59 PM

Angela Eagle is surely a very able and committed MP and potential future front bench Minister...???

Angela Seagull is an insipid, uninspiring, and unimpressive choice as a Labour Party leadership contender and potential Prime Minister....!!!!! 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:50 PM

So Angela Eagle has announced her leadership challenge. I'm not a Labour supporter but the one time I saw her do Prime Ministers Questions against George Osbourne I think most people thought she did a pretty good job. So is she one of your

punkfolkrocker wrote: tory lite twats

?

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 03:23 PM

A suggestion.

Should Corbyn be re-elected as party leader he could suggest that those MP's who stood against him resign their seats and put themselves forward for reselection by their constituency parties before a By-Election.

If this were to happen I wonder how many would be re-selected?

Yes in the short term the labour party might well lose some seats but as we will probably have a Conservative government for the next four years that in itself won't be too much of a problem.

Time to rebuild.

As I say, a suggestion.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 03:16 PM

Whichever way you look at it, the plotters have grossly miscalculated strategically,
are causing terminally stupid disruption & division,
and have effed up big time in their panic & haste to force Corbyn out.

If as seems likely, the tories won't be calling a sudden election,
then over the next few years I'd have preferred to see a Corbyn mentored younger successor [RIP Jo Cox]
groomed to lead Labour into the next election.

That person need not have been entirely unpalatable to the blairites..

But the tory lite twats have decided to set loose chaos and disorder.....????? 😬

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 02:48 PM

.. oops.. I left out Martians, time travellers, and subterranean mutant ninja turtles...???? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 02:41 PM

"even Corbyn himself might be a secret undercover tory / mossad / CIA / KGB.. /etc [take yer pick] sleeper agent;
deployed to destroy the Labour party when the time was right for him to be 'activated'...???? 😱

Why would the Tories, CIA, KGB etc want to destroy a "Blairite" Labour Party? ......a centre left party is necessary to the establishment, it gives the impression of choice and is capable of doing things to the electorate that the Tories could never get away with. See Iraq, Mass privatisation etc

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 02:20 PM

Yebbut there isn't anybody, pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 11:51 AM

Keith - seriously [for a change].. I don't know..

There must be intense anxiety and speculative calculations on both sides..

My distrust lies with the plotters, and my sympathy with Corbyn..

But as a skeptic and cynic.. who know's who's really pulling the strings...???

..and.. as an out and out barmy paranoid conspiracy theorist..

even Corbyn himself might be a secret undercover tory / mossad / CIA / KGB.. /etc [take yer pick] sleeper agent;
deployed to destroy the Labour party when the time was right for him to be 'activated'...???? 😱

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 11:41 AM

If both parties are irreconcilable?
Is it too painful to discuss?

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 11:39 AM

"How might a split work out?"


acrimoniously... dividing the CDs and DVDs will get bitter and tearful.. it's the kid's that'll suffer in the long run... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 11:30 AM

How might a split work out?

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 10:57 AM

PURE SPECULATION: [no more, no less] part 2

Angela Seagull kicks off the leadership contest
Corbyn is denied entry by foul devious dirty underhanded exploitation of technicalities..

Labour grassroots membership are outraged by the obvious coup and threaten to quit the party en mass

Suddenly up stands a Hero..

a slightly lefter and more charismatic MP than Seagull
who declares he is so pained by the prospect of a split, his conscience insists he must put himself forward
as the healing candidate Corbynites might regard as a consolation prize,
and floating disenchanted ex Labour voters should flock back to.

He, actually being the plotters genuine first choice for replacement leader.

Seagull as predicted loses, and she meekly skuls back into jobsworth obscurity...

.. and they all lived happily ever after.. The End. 🤔

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 07:52 AM

I am not sure, Ake. I agree a party led by Hilary Benn might have been electable if we had got there by another route, but if a lot of the rank and file knockers on doors and leaflet distributors and drivers-of-housebound-to-vote feel they have been disenfranchised from the party, it would be unsurprising if a lot decided they weren't interested. As to whether the media would support them: I doubt it. If can hear the pre-election interviews from here....

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 07:38 AM

The problem is that a Blairite Party led by someone like Hillary Benn, would be very electable, they would have the complete support of the media and the electorate are willing to support anything which they "think" gives them a voice.
What we need to ask ourselves, is electability that important if we are to be represented by a bunch of self-serving career politicians?

The rank and file of the Constituency Party want a Party which reflects their views, regardless of short term political success. As I have stated before, it will take years for people to come to terms with what socialism means.
A split would be best for all concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 06:28 AM

So a plotting MP is supposed to be able to simply put her name forward, thereby ousting the leader. In theory, if no-one else puts their name forward and he can't get his 50, the Eagle has landed it. Blimey, even the Ayatollah couldn't do it as neatly as that. That isn't a challenge, is it. The plotters want to split the party in two, but, unlike what happened in the 80s, they want to form the big bit. Well they've got another think coming. They have shown themselves twice already to be unelectable, lest they forget. Two-time losers against the shabbiest bunch of Tories ever. Being seen, as they will be, as a ragbag collection of devious chancers (and Murdoch is waiting in the wings to do the branding), who ignored the wishes of the massive party membership, is going to make them a damn sight more unelectable than Jeremy Corbyn could ever achieve. And to think that John Major thought that HE was surrounded by bastards. The NEC had better make the right decision at their next meeting. A challenged leader who doesn't want to step down has every right to democratically defend his corner. Otherwise, I'm out, and I won't be the only one.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 05:52 AM

By the way, if he is excluded from the ballot I would expect there to be a massive campaign to encourage people to write the name in by hand. These may just be reported as 'spoiled ballots' but if spoiled ballots substantially outweigh the valid ballots the legitimacy of whoever is elected will be challenged constantly and especially when the next general election takes place.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 05:45 AM

The plotters also want Corbyn excluded from the ballot. This is a real problem for them: if he is not excluded, the likelihood is that he will receive a massive backing and they lose whatever credibility they have left. If he is excluded that the word 'coup' is pretty well unavoidable and the likelihood of a mass resignation of members is significant. Getting rid of a leader who is 'unelectable' by ensuring the party as a whole is unelectable is an odd move.

Clearly another example of entering something without reflecting on the consequences then.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 03:15 PM

What is it with Angela Seagull...
Is she seriously the best leadership contender the plotters can muster...???

In terms of charisma and voter dazzling prime minister potential
she's so insipid, she even makes Corbyn look on a par with Las Vegas era rhinestone jumpsuit Elvis...!!!??? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 02:09 PM

"I am a lifelong believer in Socialism as a means of delivering purposeful lives to the people of this countr"
Then why do you spend so much time opposing it and advocating exactly the opposite?
Your arguments are National Socialist - and we know what the abbreviation for that is
Homophobia and the racist attitude you express towards immigrants is an anathema to socialist ideals
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 12:12 PM

I never suggested that socialism would "improve freedom and prosperity" Don.
Both of these would take a hit in the short term......We lead extremely wasteful lives, we poison the planet, we are greedy selfish an acquisitive.......We demand "freedoms" to do exactly as we please regardless of the effect on society.
I we want real benefits like free education, a properly functioning health service and other public services which are fit for purpose, we will be required to relinquish many of the faux freedoms which have been handed out as sops to a nation completely without any sense of personal responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 09:34 AM

Ake your one trick pony argument that 'liberals have become knee jerk reactionaries when it comes to responding to Conservative assaults'

is valid.

Beyond that I don't see what else you contribute as to improving freedom and prosperity.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 06:11 AM

Nothing to do with "Brexit" Stu, I have socialist friends who are anti and one or two who are pro.
This issue crosses party or political divisions.

The issue is how the country should be run given the large number of problems which now affect the economy, the change in demographic in the population , our ability to compete in "globalism" etc.

The "liberal left" have fooled themselves into thinking that the present economic system can be made to work fairly when in reality it requires extreme inequality to survive and prosper. Under the correct circumstances it can prosper and some of that prosperity "trickles down" but the effects are transient and in the long term bound to fail the mass of the population
Socialists are aware that the whole edifice requires to be demolished and re-constructed few are under the impression that this will be quick easy or pain free.......but it is a necessity.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Stu
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:21 AM

Ake - how can you know who is a 'serious socialist'? This is an internet forum and despite having been here for around 16 years I can't say I know anyone at all, expect those I meet personally.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here, unless it's invalidating everyone else's opinion because they don't meet some arbitrary personal criteria of yours that means their views are uniformed or less relevant than those of the chosen few. Hardly the grounds for reasonable debate, especially when the Brexiteers are accusing others of doing precisely that.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:45 PM

I do not believe for one second that Mr Farage is "racist" or "xenophobic".

Now THERE'S your problem, Ake.

Or are you suggesting that Farage only PRETENDED to be a racist xenophobe in order to gain personal political advantage and votes for "Leave"?

Which would make him even slimier than I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Demise of the Labour Party
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:39 PM

I do not believe for one second that Mr Farage is "racist" or "xenophobic".

Now THERE'S your problem!