BS: Where Is The Outpouring?

Subject: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 10:27 AM

A valid question Indeed:


After Attacks on Muslims, Many Ask: Where Is the Outpouring?

By Anne Barnard, NY TIMES,    5 JULY, 2016

PARIS — In recent days, jihadists killed 41 people at Istanbul's bustling, shiny airport; 22 at a cafe in Bangladesh; and at least 250 celebrating the final days of Ramadan in Baghdad. Then the Islamic State attacked, again, with bombings in three cities in Saudi Arabia.

By Tuesday, Michel Kilo, a Syrian dissident, was leaning wearily over his coffee at a Left Bank cafe, wondering: Where was the global outrage? Where was the outpouring that came after the same terrorist groups unleashed horror in Brussels and here in Paris? In a supposedly globalized world, do nonwhites, non-Christians and non-Westerners count as fully human?

This is not the first time that the West seems to have shrugged off massacres in predominantly Muslim countries. But the relative indifference after so many deaths caused by the very groups that have plagued the West is more than a matter of hurt feelings.



Complete Article Here

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 11:13 AM

I thought so too Greg. It's as you say, as if firstly, these people don't matter because they're 'only more of those Muslims' and secondly they live in countries where 'people are always being blown up.' I suppose it's ignorance and prejudice. It usually is.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 11:35 AM

The deadliest of the Saudi bombs killed four people.
The others just killed the bomber.

There has been much coverage of the Baghdad bombing, which targeted Shia Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 12:11 PM

Go peddle your crap somewhere else, Professor. Do you have to pollute EVERY thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 03:06 PM

What crap Greg?

Please tell us all how many were killed by the bombs in Saudi Arabia?

I have heard coverage of the bombings in Bangladesh and in Baghdad in western press and television. Seems as though in Bangladesh the Government is in denial of any external terrorist involvement and are using the bombings as a means of cracking down on opposition parties (Some 14,000 arrests in the last few months). The Baghdad bombing was reported as though it was unusual in terms of scale of attack - about 18 months ago ISIS were supposed to be about to march in to take over the entire country.

I think western media are a bit wary of commenting on the fact that most Muslims killed in terrorist attacks are killed by Muslims - something that has always been the case. In Muslim countries themselves if there is any sort of religious aspect then their press, not often free, cannot criticise such criticism being forbidden.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 04:05 PM

I can't see any legitimacy in what you have to say above, Keith. While it may be true that the number of deaths in Saudi Arabia was small,
What about all those other deaths listed in the first post? Your mention of only the Saudi deaths, is callous disregard of all the others who died.

I think there is no outpouring of sympathy because people don't know to blame. The Conventional Wisdom is that Islam is responsible for all the terrorism happening currently in the world. When the victims are Muslim, people don't know whom to blame. We need to learn how to form our language to express such things.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 06:31 PM

The Conventional Wisdom

I think you meant to say the conventional stupidity or the conventional Islamophobia, didn't you Joe?

"Wisdom" it sure as hell ain't.

I think there is no outpouring of sympathy because people don't know [who] to blame.

The one is hardly contingent upon the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 09:02 PM

No, Greg, I think that people can't possibly know what's going on in our world these days and why, so they don't know how to respond.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jul 16 - 09:13 PM

No, Greg, I think that people can't possibly know what's going on in our world these days....

They can't possibly know what happened in Baghdad and Istanbul and Bangladesh???

Joe, are you feeling all right? I think you'd better see a doctor right away. Or possibly an alienist.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:49 AM

I read the article today in the New York Times and felt that it was headlined a little off-topic. I think there have been plenty of outpourings of sympathy, fear, and searching for origins.

There was a horrible example of what is purported to be ISIS terrorism in Bangladesh, hostages executed and some held and then freed by counter-terrorists. And retrospective analysis of those who could be coopted into the terrorism from upper/ middle class families in Bangladesh.
As for the mass explosions and killings in Iraq there has been an outpouring of fear and sympathy, not to mention hate for the Iraqi government which can't protect its people (which is the motivation of the terror in the first place) but I'm not aware of someone taking responsibility for it as yet.

What is going on is terror of the extremist on the non-extremist regardless of religion except that there is the additional wrinkle of sunni shia hate which harkens back to the kind of thing Europe experienced in the Thirty Years war.

I still remember the Taliban targetting kids in school in a systematic mass execution.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 03:59 AM

robomatic has found an admirable way of describing these events '...the terror of the extremist on the non-extremist regardless of religion...'
I think that sums it up beautifully.

While it's kind to illuminate public buildings with the national flag of the country concerned, light candles at street shrines and go about wearing placards such as 'I am Paris' or whatever, these are gestures not action. Expressing solidarity is encouraging to the beleaguered, but governments should be taking more trouble to get involved and finding a strong solution once and for all. The solutions available aren't pretty, but this just can't go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 03:59 AM

Joe,
What about all those other deaths listed in the first post?

The 4 incidents mentioned were Baghdad, Bangladesh, Istanbul and Saudi.

In UK all except Saudi had extensive coverage in the media, each being the lead story for a time.
The reporting was continued, with individual tributes to some victims of Baghdad presented.

Perhaps it was different in US.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:13 AM

In Bangladesh, most of the twenty murdered hostages were not Muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:15 AM

there is a phenomenon of viewer fatigue. The well of outpour runs dry.

The reality of the need to earn a living and the baby's colic rather intrude and consume our time.

And the government are doing something, selectively, albeit the biggest targets, motivated by the refugee crisis.

The Muslim world have a problem on their hands. The terrorists (and their simpathisers) have hijacked their brand. Whatever is done with the problem has to involve some internal effective politics inside the brand.

And in the UK we have other agitators who need dealing with. Wear your safety pin at least!

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 08:22 AM

The Muslim world have a problem on their hands. The terrorists (and their simpathisers) have hijacked their brand.

You raise an interesting point. Why is it that crazy people who happen to be Muslim are styled "Muslim Extremists" and/or "Muslim Terrorists"while crazy people who happen to be Christians ( and who can match or exceed their Muslim counterpartsatrocity for atrocity) are not styled "Christian Extremists"?

The terorists haven't "hijacked" the Muslim's "brand"; rather Muslims as a whole have had the "terrorist" brand thrust upon them, and the problem is more with the "Christian"[sic] West who have done the thrusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:22 AM

In UK we refer to them as Islamists rather than Muslim extremists, so we would have to say "christianists" for all those others.
I can see no objection to either.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:30 AM

I suppose "buddhistist" would sound silly.
How strange that no-one has considered names for other religious terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 09:47 AM

Professor, see 06 Jul 16 - 12:11 PM above.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 11:41 AM

Oddly enough I cannot think of any "Christian" terrorist group in the world who have a stated aim of creating their own empire were everyone living in it must convert to one particular brand of Christianity and agree to live under "Old Testament" religious courts as the only form of law.

Can't think of any other "religious" terrorist groups either apart from the various Islamic ones, who have been plaguing the world for the last 45 years.

Other terrorist organisations do exist of course but their aims and motives tend to be political and/or secular.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 11:58 AM

yeah, we minded when the moslem victims were white, that's why we went into Kosovo.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 12:41 PM

You got that right, Mr. T - you can't think.

Moving right along......

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 01:40 PM

Not even the Dominicans?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 03:15 PM

Last year almost to the day Saudi Arabia suffered a crane collapse and stampede killing over three hundred pilgrims who came to orbit the sacred meteor in Mecca.
Forgot?

C'est a'vie c'est l'mort.

Does the Saudi Kingdom deserve empathy? Is empathy earned?

It appears that mass deaths by intention or accident is met with a callous hand and forgetful conscience, particularly when it is reported in the middle east.

Numbers, lives, money, which is more meaningful?

Names like Bho-Pol, WTC, Dresden all have versions of villains and victims. I believe our collective feeling of empathy is sickened by exhaustion.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 03:54 PM

An article in the Atlantic offers a great overview of the philosophy and theology that drives ISIS. In brief, ISIS is based on the belief that Muslims must establish a caliphate, a pure Islamic state where Sharia is fully implemented. The group declared themselves a worldwide caliphate, with Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as the caliph.

What ISIS Really Wants: The Atlantic

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 03:55 PM

Damned sight better than you Greg F - damned sight better than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 04:41 PM

That article was extremely informative bobad. Thank you for posting it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:00 PM

Boo- what the fuck has an ISIS manifesto got to do with sympathy for the Muslim victims of terrorism? You really are an ugly piece of work.

And it also has nothing to do with 07 Jul 16 - 08:22 AM , above.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:13 PM

Now, now, there T-Bird - getting a tad tetchy, are we? "Can dish it out but can't take it" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:30 PM

If by 'Boo' you mean bobad Greg F, his article was interesting in that it explains the different factions among the jihadis, and isn't merely about an ISIS manifesto. It's relevant because Muslims are being attacked by Muslims, and we need to understand the mindset of each group in order to come to an informed conclusion. This is important for those who lump all Muslims together and condemn the lot. If people realised this, that innocent non-extremist Muslims are dying in terrorist actions, they might 'outpour' rather more feelingly.

And may I say that I find your posts very unpleasant. Do you need to be quite so vehement?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 05:34 PM

Thank you Senoufou. Too many people blow their horns from a position of ideology without bothering to inform themselves of the facts as witnessed by some of the posts on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jul 16 - 06:57 PM

And it also has nothing to do with 07 Jul 16 - 08:22 AM , above.

As much as your head is buried deep in the sand of denial it has everything to with 07 Jul 16 - 08:22 AM , above. Read it and educate yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 07:59 AM

while crazy people who happen to be Christians ( and who can match or exceed their Muslim counterpartsatrocity for atrocity) are not styled "Christian Extremists"?

How soon we forget the sectarian dived that still lingers in Northern Ireland. The divide is along religious lines, and you can't say the agitators aren't using it as an excuse.

IS most definitely uses religion and enforces is wherever they are in ascendency. The clue is in the name IS. And what is the definition of a caliphate?

If claiming to be a religious movement and impressing it on anyone who they meet by means of force is not a highjack then please publish your dictionary.

BTW extremes (dracaonian if not violent) of religion are called fundamentalist and the word has been used on Hebredian Protestant communities, and even gun toting individuals of the Jewish community in Israel. Mind you I can't imagine a fundamentalist Buddhist..........

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 08:41 AM

If claiming to be a religious movement and impressing it on anyone who they meet by means of force

Rather like the "Christians"[sic] who bomb abortion clinics and assassinate doctors who perform abortions, all in the name of Jesus, perhaps???

If people realised this, that innocent non-extremist Muslims are dying in terrorist actions

Anyone who doesn't realize this in the face recent events which have been extensively reported (recourse to explainations of the different factions among the jihadis being beside entirely the point) is an absolute idiot.

Do you need to be quite so vehement?

In the case of BooIslamaphobeBad, absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 09:03 AM

Anything actively 'extremist' is dangerous and toxic to society. There are many extreme types of religion, and some of them are determined to impose their ways on the rest of us. I often wonder why people can't just believe in their God and get on with it peaceably (many do of course)
Greg, you may be surprised to discover just how many ignorant (and yes, possibly stupid) people lump all Muslims together and don't see the differences between terrorists and a myriad of other less extreme groups of Muslims. My husband feels he has to be very careful not to disclose he is a Muslim in some circles, and has even shortened his first name to something not obviously Islamic.
Perhaps it's where we live, but I don't think many folk around here have a clue about who is who in the Muslim world. I have been approached in Tesco's of all places, by a very fundamentalist Muslim couple who actually told me that as a Christian I was contaminating my husband by being his wife and should take the veil immediately and join the gang. (The husband had met mine at the gym) My neighbour thought this was 'normal' and 'what could you expect from the lot of 'em?' This is probably why there is scant 'outpouring' for the massacred victims of Muslim extremist terrorists in Nigeria, Istanbul, Baghdad etc etc.
I don't personally think being vehement, no matter towards whom, will help anyone to understand one's point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 16 - 10:02 AM

Greg, must you pollute every thread with your displays of ignorance?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:21 AM

the sectarian dived that still lingers in Northern Ireland. The divide is along religious lines

No it is not. That is just convenient labels.
The dispute is political, one side wanting union with the Republic and the other union with UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 09:51 AM

Greg, you may be surprised to discover just how many ignorant (and yes, possibly stupid) people lump all Muslims together and don't see the differences between terrorists and a myriad of other less extreme groups of Muslims.

I'm not surprised at all at the level of ignorance: horrified, disgusted, appalled, annoyed perhaps, but hardly surprised, especially when there are folks like Boo and The Trumpshit and Farage et.al. mindlessly whipping up Islamophobia.

However, this still doesn't explain why "Christian"[sic] terrorism hasn't tarred all Christians as terrorists.



You're likely correct - but in Boo's case absolutely nothing will budge him from his point of view, least of all facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 01:08 PM

It makes sense to me Keith.

bobad, I think you see more blatant anti-Semitism than there is.
Of course it is real, I'm suggesting it may be bigger in your eyes.

Lets hope we all contaminate each other with cultural differences and enjoy what commonalities we can and ignore all that does not help solve problems, even if we have to swallow hard sometimes.

In any conflict a pathology probably exists on both sides, otherwise the conflict would expire.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 03:51 PM

the divide along religious lines

According to the daughter of a Northern Ireland MP before the "troubles" the sections of the community mixed amicably. Once the politicians fomented trouble it revealed itself as a religious divide. She lived it.

You only have to hear the news to this week it happened between Sunni & Shiite in Iraq, Saddam Hussein only kept it bottled up with fear and killing.

And football tribalism hasn't gone away entirely. It is human nature, the price of freedom.

It is just that it seems far more prevalent these days. Social media hasn't reduced it, as we thought it would, it has deepened divides.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jul 16 - 05:42 PM

Social media, isn't. Puts me in mind of Voltaire on the Holy Roman Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 04:11 AM

Neither the GFA nor any previous negotiations dealt with religious issues.
It was all about governance.

None of the stated aims and objectives of PIRA or any other paramilitaries were religious.
It was all about governance.

Religion is just a convenient way to label the two communities, which are distinct for more fundamental reasons than religions.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 02:24 PM

Joe Offer is a

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 11:55 AM

"there are no Christians, as far as I know, blowing up buildings. I am not aware of any Christian suicide bombers. I am not aware of any major Christian organisation that believes the penalty for apostasy is death. I have mixed feelings about the decline of Christianity, in so far as Christianity might e a bulwark against something far worse".       Richard Dawkins.    The times 2:4:10 .

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:07 PM

there are no Christians, as far as I know, blowing up buildings.

I guess Dawkins never heard of the numerous "Christians"[sic] who have blown up abortion clinics.

I am not aware of any major Christian organisation that believes the penalty for apostasy is death

Guess he's never heard of the numerous "Christian" anti-abortion organizations and/or the "Christian"[sic] members thereof who have murdered abortion providers.

Christianity might be a bulwark against something far worse.

And that "something" would be...?

Nice try, pete. Guess again.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:08 PM

Oh, and pete- you quoting Dawkins is absoluteky hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 02:47 PM

Well, Pete, Dawkins is well known for regarding Christianity as a more benign form of idiocy than Islam, but he still regards it as a form of idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 08:11 AM

Want to fight ISIS? You've got to start by recognizing what it really is: part of a worldwide campaign to impose a religion by gunpoint.

Maajid Nawaz is not afraid to call radical Islam what it is: A toxic culture that puts the entire world at risk—peaceful Muslims included. And Nawaz would know. He spent 15 years recruiting people to radical Islam, and five years in an Egyptian prison. After discovering secular liberalism, Nawaz wants to help bring down ISIS. But first, he has to convince the leading countries in the war against terror that they're doing almost everything wrong.

The best speech you will ever hear from a former Islamic terrorist recruiter

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 11:43 AM

Your Israeli video won't play, Boo. Ya got this written out somewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outporing?
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 12:00 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUra13sGqk4

Subject: RE: BS: Where Is The Outpouring?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 05:06 PM

Thanks, Boo.

Now check THIS out.