BS: Are we all bigots?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:43 PM

I think that excluding EU citizens ( papart from those of us who were British or Irish) from the referendum on EU membership was a disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:26 PM

Senoufou sorry that last post was in response to Ake's comment re the numbers not your new comment :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:24 PM

Actually there are for instance a higher proportion of Poles her head of population in Scotland than there is in the UK as a whole - so it is simply wrong to suggest we haven't got the numbers. What might be correct is that EU citizens are spread pretty evenly throughout Scotland and there perhaps isn't the very high percentages in certain towns as there 'appears' to be in some parts of the south - but as McGrath states that isn't in itself always a factor anyway.

The case is still though that Sturgeon called for everyone to be guaranteed residency very early and I'm pretty sure before other major political figures did. She has reiterated that today.

Whatever anyone thinks on the rights or wrongs of either independence or immigration - my only point was that the suggestion that Scottish independence goes in any way with wanting to kick incomers out of Scotland is way, way off the mark.

On a personal note I have a lot of Polish clients and a good few I'd regard as friends too. The difference between the two referendums I felt was quite stark. In the Scottish indi referendum they had a vote and many seemed at ease asking what you thought about it. In the Brexit vote they did not have a vote and personally I found they were very wary about broaching the subject. The uncertainty re their status is causing problems too. I know of three house purchases just in the Kelso area that didn't go ahead because EU citizens pulled out not knowing for definite what their future status is to be. That can't be unique!!!   

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14688068.Theresa_May_urged_to__do_the_humane_thing__and_allow_EU_nationals_to_remain/

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:12 PM

Good heavens Allan! What a terrible and vicious attack on you and your friends in Great Yarmouth! Good thing the Police acted and the men involved went to prison.

I know Old Costessey well. My father lived in Taverham (not far) after retirement and leaving W London.

I wonder what our farmers here in Norfolk and also in Lincolnshire will do if immigrant labour is no longer available. It isn't so much that it's cheap (I don't know if they're paid the minimum wage - they jolly well should be!) but that the local people just don't want to work in the fields. It's the same in those dreadful battery hen units and the turkey-slaughtering, meat- and vegetable-processing factories. Nobody wants to do that kind of work except migrants. I met two Portuguese-speaking Africans from Guinea-Bissau in the supermarket and we managed to chat a bit. Their jobs were awful, in the turkey sheds and slaughterhouse. But they were glad to have jobs, and were content with the pay. I should imagine very few 'Norfolk-born-and-bred' youngsters would be seen dead doing such grim toil.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 12:04 PM

There is plenty of evidence that places with low numbers of immigrants tend to be more hostile than places with higher numbers, and vice versa.

Sunderland, which voted 61% for Brexit has very few people from other EU countries. Thee highest proportion of immigrants in Sunderland are in fact Chinese. And it's also one of the places under biggest risk from Brexit, with its massive Nissan assembly plant only too liable to be moved when it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 11:09 AM

Harold: You sure have a way with people.
Maude: They're my species!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 10:31 AM

That's just a wee bit sleekit Allan, The reason Scots "general consensus"(who he) is not anti immigration is simply that we have yet to see the huge rates of immigration which have afflicted England....
Ask the general if he's ever visited the towns of North East England or South Wales?

Free movement and its associated social ills is on the way out and as an SNP voter I am pleased to see it going.......I want to see our country truly independent and an economy which gives our young people a purpose......not one built on the back of cheap immigrant labour.

They should be encouraged to build up their own infrastructure, their countries need them more than we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 17 Aug 16 - 07:19 AM

I totally agree with you that there is no place for racism. Nor is there for generalisations hence I just commented on the association with the idea that Scottish independence and the SNP have anything to do with driving out non Scots from Scotland. It is in fact exactly the opposite. The SNP are in favour of immigration into Scotland and believe it is in general of benefit to the country. Of course not everyone within the Yes movement would agree with that but it is the general consensus. In fact just today the First Minister is holding a meeting with hundreds of EU citizens to take their questions and to try and explain to them how she hopes to secure their rights of permanent abode. Quite frankly as far as I can see it puts the UK PM to shame as she sees the EU residents as bargaining chips in Brexit negotiations.

My wife comes from Norfolk too. From Old Costessey just on the outskirts of Norwich. So yes we know the "Normal For Norfolk" jokes etc and of course anywhere you are it can be much worse than that type of leg pulling. The week I met my wife I was with a group of Scottish lads in Great Yarmouth and as we left a pub, one by one, we were set upon by a large group of lads. Most of us weren't too badly hurt apart from some black eyes and bruises but one of my mates did get a bottle driven into his face which caused a fair injury. There was no prior arguments; not even any contact between us and them; the ringleaders (three of whom received jail sentences) freely admitted we were attacked for no reason other than we had Scottish accents. Likwise my brother-in-law who now lives in Woodbridge got quite an unprovoked kicking in Scarborough because he was southern!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 08:58 PM

There is no reverse racism, there is only racism.
In a Woody Allen world there is such a thing as being a bigot, but for the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 10:17 AM

As I've been away from Scotland for 40 years now and live in Norfolk, I don't know enough about the ins and outs of Independence. I only get my sister's opinions. But I do wish the land well, as I have many lovely memories of the place.

I know what is meant by being on the receiving end of bigotry towards one's region or town. People often think Norfolk is a joke, and the people inbred and parochial. But I've found it to be a wonderful place to live. The environment alone is blissful (I do like rural peace!) and, as in every place on Earth, there are good and bad among the inhabitants.

I bristle with rage at racism. There are (naturally) good and bad among every race on the planet. Generalisations and mass-condemnation destroy any hope of respect and mutual friendliness. One can't hate ALL black people, or ALL Germans (or ALL Norfolk folk!) One may as well say one hates everybody and have done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 07:35 AM

It is interesting but I could't disagree more re the impact of potential independence. There may be some who would think about leaving simply because of independence (regardless of the effects) but I imagine the vast bulk would simply see how it goes. And of course almost a third of English born living in Scotland voted for independence anyway which is a similar percentage to Scottish born pensioners. Likewise more EU citizens voted No than Yes but one of the major factors in that was they were told by Better Together that the only way to secure right of abode in Scotland as EU citizens was by staying in the UK. That has been laid to rest now! So I don't think it could or should be turned into a them and us within the Scottish population thing. Though some unionists might like to suggest it is that the SNP were clear from the start before the Scottish referendum that everyone legally living in Scotland would be guaranteed the right of abode after independence which is much more than the Tory gvt had done before and after the Brexit vote. So yes whether another vote ever happens, or whether it would be won or not, are things for the birds and folk have opinions - but what is clear is that the SNP are one of the more welcoming parties as far as incomers go.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFgHQOHqKRg

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 07:35 AM

We get the same in Harlow. Outsiders knocking the town in the press from time to time, and that's not liked. I think it,s general, whether town or country, or football club or religion, or family. You're happy to criticise your own, but it's different when outsiders join in.

Is there a term for reverse bigotry? Where you are prejudiced in favour of some group, maybe your own, maybe another one. I mentioned the fear you might feel with a group of strangers met at night - if I heard them talking in Polish or with Irish accents, I'd be likely to feel more at ease. And I know that doesn't make much sense in practical terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:58 AM

Bigotry, as I receive it, can depend on the tribe I identify with.

I lived in Malvern for quite a while. Consequently any satirical radio programme that made fun of the town was not funny. They played on the assumption that the town was a magnet for retirees (which was barely true). It had the foremost military research establishemnt in the country, cutting edge stuff staffed with PhD's and wives to match. And a host of clever industry around run by ex-employees thereof. Plus the Morgan Car Company.

Not quite bigotry in the normal sense but on that spectrum, (and easier to use as illustration).

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 03:51 AM

I always felt there was a much more complex scenario behind the 'wicked English exploiters' depiction, Allen. Having studied, lived and worked in Scotland as a teacher for many years, in both Glasgow and Edinburgh, it soon became apparent to me that Scotland isn't a cohesive land, but made up of many fierce factions. The wealthy investors and financiers, the left-wing workers, the Gaelic communities in the Isles and the Highlands, and the educated elite etc. Each one of these harbours a grudge against the others (probably justifiably, I can't say...)

I knew many Skye and Lewis people in Glasgow who had no love of the non-Gaelic speakers around them. I knew a few English who despised the parochial Scots. I knew Edinburgh urbane 'snobs' who felt far superior to the ordinary folk at work around them. I took the position of a mere neutral observer, kept my head down and watched and learned!

My sister has lived 'up there' for fifty years and is far better-informed than I, and she too feels that Scotland is an interestingly complicated place. She tells me that in her opinion, independence won't do much for anyone in the long run. It will isolate it from the rest of the world, and drive out the 'immigrants' (mostly English like her!) who contribute an enormous amount to the economy and quality of life. In the hospital where she is a consultant, many of the staff at all levels are from outside Scotland.

I find all this tremendously fascinating!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 02:49 AM

McGrath makes a good point. Others will have more knowledge about Ireland than I would so is a different case from Scotland. It is going down the wrong route though to blame "the English" for the Highland Clearances in Scotland though. There were of course some of the landlords who were English. Most notably the Duke of Sutherland but remember he was only in that position because he married the Duchess who was a native Scot. It was a class issue and the vast bulk of the people who carried it out were themselves Scottish landowners. There was not an alien English landed class in Scotland - only an anglicised one. Often if not blaming the English then the Lowlanders will be blamed but again though there were a more Lowlanders involved than English the facts are that many of the clearers were the native Highland Lairds themselves. If a Highland chief becomes anglicised and remote from his people it doesn't mean that the English are to blame for his actions.

The Scottish Gaelic poet Sorley MacLean writes about this in his book "Ris A Bhruthaich" which is a critique of earlier Gaelic poetry "It is only too common a feature of Gaelic poetry to blame Englishmen and Lowlanders for the crimes of Highland chiefs. This tendency gets an absurd expression in Mairi Mhor's wish to drive the Sasunnaich from Skye, where nearly all the principle Clearers had names at least as Gaelic as her own"

I've not got it to hand either (so can't remember which chief it is) but there is an interesting bit from James Hogg's diary. The Borders Shepherd is invited up to the Highlands to the estate of a chief and whilst walking is asked how many sheep he thought could be kept on the estate and what kind of profit could be made. Hogg gives an estimate of kinds. Then the company come to a burn (ie small stream) where Hogg crosses. The laird however sends one of his men back quite a distance to fetch another man - and they then lift the chief up and carry him across the burn. Hogg is amazed and says to the chief "do what you will but don't expect to be treated so by a Borders shepherd should you bring one here" He remarks in his writings that the landowner was "like an emperor with as much power as Napoleon in his own domain".

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 06:46 PM

Oh goodness me keberoxu! I'm pretty sure it's actually the same cast that I watched at the theatre all those years ago! I've also just watched most of the Youtube full-length production (1974) from which your clip is taken. It amazed me to see it actually available on film. The song where the posh chap and lady pull out automatic rifles (she's wearing a red tartan Edwardian dress with a bustle) convinces me it IS the same cast. I even remember her dress!
I'm afraid I have tears in my eyes, as it was so long ago, and I was very ardent and naive. I had a Scottish boyfriend at the time (from Fife) and was very torn in loyalty between being enamoured of Scotland but born and bred in England. It was he who took me to the show, and I did feel he half-despised me for being from London!
Thank you so much for finding this link and posting it for me!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 06:43 PM

The Clearances weren't just the doing of English landlords. There were Scottish landlords in there as well, and some of the worst. And the same kind of thing was true in Ireland.
.....................

It's not bigotry to be cautious of strangers in some situations. If I'm out late in a lonely place I might well be apprehensive of a bunch of young men up ahead. It wouldn't make any difference to me if they were black or white, but I can see why it would to many people, or in certain settings.

Bigotry is more than suspicion. It's when that suspicion turns into belief and a motive for action.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Aug 16 - 05:20 PM

Eliza, here is a link to the very song.

We Are The Men Who Own Your Glen a live performance as well

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 04:23 AM

keberoxu, I had never heard of Lyndsay's A Pleasant Satyre, and your post was extremely interesting and knowledgeable! I had no idea that John McGrath (the chap who wrote Cheviot) had referred to this work as an inspiration for his play.
'Cheviot' deals with the Highland Clearances (a dreadful series of events in which wealthy English landlords evicted large numbers of poor crofters from their tenancies in order to fill the land with more profitable sheep) the stag-shooting enterprises set up by wealthy English businessmen and the exploitation of Scotland's oil. It doesn't show the English in a good light to say the least. One of the songs has always stuck in my mind :- "We are the men who own your glen, but you won't see us there!" The whole theatre (King's Theatre, Edinburgh) was bristling with patriotism and anti-English feeling. I am actually half-Irish and half-Scots, but born and bred near London.
This is pertinent to the thread because it gave me the unpleasant experience of being a detested minority. It also explained the patriotism and separatism of the beleaguered Scots, and their attempts to become independent recently. Therefore History has a part to play in bigotry and prejudice. Folk have long memories. I (and Billy Connelly has said this many times) feel that patriotism is a two-edged sword. It can develop into Nationalism and become dangerous.
Forgiveness for past evils is hard to come by. I always spoke broad 'Burgh' and Glasgae when living in those two cities. It avoided an awful lot of aggro! (And of course my maiden name is very Scottish. Phew!)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 07:14 PM

Fighting received wisdom and one's own stubborn prejudices is a constant battle. As long as you know that you're in that battle, you're on the right path. As I've said, there are bigots, and then there are imperfect human beings. They are not the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 07:07 PM

I don't know what counts as bigotry on a personal basis without an exhaustive investigation. I believe that the symptoms range from being ill at ease to fearfulness and actual vicious or deadly reactions.

I knew a man who acted much like Ebbie's friend. The greater his suspiciousness grew the more mine grew in reaction. It turns out he was a fictitious Jew whose father was a Nazi war criminal in Crete.
Often there is a reason for defensiveness. If one suspects others are thieves they may be one as well. He has passed but his life would make an interesting screenplay in that he slowly drifted back to his roots after he felt safe with his cover story.

A former Nazi in a nursing home may have been psychotic or may have used behavior as a defense against punishment. In time someone like him become both. To be clear I am mot a Nazi hunter but was unusually vigilant against the underground roots of hate that can spread like bamboo.

I have noticed that a group of 4 or more black youths make me more wary than white youths. Another symptom of my bigotry is my annoyance with the word axe instead of ask. A Yiddish accent does not do that to me. I make sure my behavior does not reflect any symptoms of racism
but I also guard against overcompensating.

While I look like a Arian storm trooper raised in a Liebensborn
facility it did not dissuade anti-Semite remarks because of my step father's Russian roots or by other Jews who had bad associations and finally for those without malice , mazel tov.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 06:01 PM

I think he's the most eloquent and most philosophical President that we've had in my lifetime

And a lot of good its done him, Joe. He's still disdained and hated as the Ni**er President by at least a third of the U.S. population.

How far we've come? Not so very far at all.

Black Lives Matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Jul 16 - 05:35 PM

Apologies to Eliza aka Senoufou, for keeping you waiting, I had hoped to respond sooner. Re your post of 13 July 2016.

I have not seen "The Cheviot, the Stag, and the Black Black Oil," I have only seen references thereto, when I was researching something much older: Sir David Lindsay's morality play from the 1500's, "A Pleasant Satyre of the Thrie Estaites, In Commendatioun of Vertew and Vituperatioun of Vyce." From the title you would not be certain, but the play is written in Scots; shortly before Lindsay died, this public pageant of a play -- it goes on for hours and hours -- was staged for the newly widowed Scottish regent, Marie, whose husband James V had just died in battle, and who would be the mother of Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots ( literally a babe in arms at that point).   The writers and theatrical people behind "The Cheviot etc." drew direct inspiration from Lindsay's much earlier "Satyre."

Sir David Lindsay's "Pleasant Satyre" is actually pretty ham-fisted in places. Of course it is invective against those in power, in defense of the oppressed people or "the Common-Weal." In fact, although there are token references to England, the "Estait" that comes in for the heaviest condemnation is the Church; Scotland at this point was a Catholic country, and the Catholics in general, and Rome in particular, are roundly ridiculed and told off. All these centuries later, this dramatic work still polarizes people. Those who speak in the play's favor tend to get a little militant about it; those who hate it, really hate it.

Since 1948, at the Edinburgh Festival, with Tyrone Guthrie directing, no less, revivals have been attempted; but there is always resistance to the piece, for two reasons: it is antiquated and not genius (i.e. Shakespeare); and its satire is divisive. When I attempt a balanced evaluation myself, my feelings are mixed: the insulting parts can be repulsive and repetitive, literally rabble-rousing; and when it is witty and wise about human nature, it is memorable. So, a mixed bag. Before I forget, though: the playwright, Lindsay, was a devout Catholic, so he was in favor of reform, not schism.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 02:56 AM

"Do ingrained prejudices count as bigotry? "
They can do if they are acted on.
My generation was brought up to believe that foreigners, especially those from our former Empire, were inferior in some way, in some cases, rather like children who needed protecting from their own ignorance and shortcomings - we were even taught to sing hymns about them as being in "errors chain".
In Ireland, we came across the "little black babies" syndrome, where generous people would collect money to send to the "poor blacks" to help them develop - patronising, rather than bigoted.
I always found, especially when working with the Travellers, that the best way to overcome this in most people is to actually get people with this sot of bigotry to meet the people they regarded in this way
We have great memories of taking Traveller singers and storytellers around schools and local events in London and putting them in front of audiences of Londoners - magic!
One Travellers group in East London mounted a campaign to have the "no Travellers served here" signs removed from local shops and pubs.
The owner of one of the most resistant pubs sent round his barman to the site we were working on and told them , "I don't mean you people, you're always welcome".
Most people, I believe, are kind, tolerant and welcoming once you have found a way in to their world.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jul 16 - 02:25 AM

Do ingrained prejudices count as bigotry? I have a friend who spent most of her adult life in New York City. I don't know how she felt when she was young but now that she is an old lady she is far more distrustful than I.

She is far more likely than I to assume something is stolen- when it may be merely misplaced. More likely to fear an invasion when her door is inadvertently left unlocked. More likely to hint darkly at someone's motivation when conversational questions are asked.

It may be pertinent to mention that she was a radio reporter in NYC and that may have colored her opinions. She is an intelligent person and I enjoy her.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 12:34 PM

The most beautiful and insightful posts above are; personal experiences, 13th century wisdom, refined definitions and seeing from different POV's. This all seems more honest than what an "expert" might say in soundbites.

It seems that Obama has thought, lived and learned to speak like Abraham Lincoln who did not have the time to say. Even his candidacy began in Springfield.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 07:01 AM

It's amazing isn't it Steve, how far we've all come since those days. I well remember using 'choosing chants' (we called it 'dipping') in the playground, one of which went
          "Eeny meeny miny mo,
            Catch a n***** by the toe,
            If he hollers let him go,
            Eeny meeny miny mo."

Makes me shudder even to think about it now. (And I married an African!)
I've been watching those programmes on TV 'It was Alright In The Sixties' etc. And the awful racism and misogyny etc we laughed at then makes one cringe now.
(The Black And White Minstrels and so on)
I even had an illustrated children's book called 'Little Black Sambo'. Gaaaah!!

Our playing was truly awful. I can still hear those dear little children gamely trying to sing along in their sweet Asian accents to 'Old Macdonald Had A Farm'. We'd hold up each plastic animal during the song. Yet we couldn't see that saying 'Paki' and grumbling about 'wogs', 'invasion' and so on was terribly racist.
I was only three when a very black Jamaican chap got on our bus. I shouted out, "Mummy! Look! A chimney sweep!" My mother nearly died of shame. But the man grinned like anything and didn't mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 05:07 AM

I'm sure your harmonica playing was lovely!

I've just realised that I didn't follow up the asterisk on the word Paki in my last post. I meant to add a footnote that was to read: "*Doesn't it now look shocking when you see the word Paki used unqualified, and isn't it a good thing that we now think it's shocking?"

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 04:12 AM

By the way, those Pakistani ladies deserved a medal for enduring Susan's melodeon playing and my efforts on my Hohner mouth organ and the recorder. I'm sure we were absolutely dreadful!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 04:05 AM

I too think President Obama's address in Dallas was impressive and very moving. He has gravitas and sincerity. I was in Accra in Ghana when he was elected, and there was much jubilation there that an 'African' man had succeeded in becoming President. He's been a very good one in my humble opinion.
That beautiful reading from Rumi touched me, Joe. Such a sensible and insightful attitude, (and from the 13th Century!) I love the idea that 'beyond the arguing there's a long table of companionship, set and waiting for us to sit down.'
I lived very near Southall Steve, when young. And Pakistani families were moving in everywhere. There was concern that the pre-school children and their mums were a bit isolated in their homes, so our school chose me and a friend, Susan, to visit one afternoon every week as part of a council integration programme. We took a toy farm and sat on the floor (they never seemed to have any furniture, poor souls) and played and sang to the little ones. The mums joined in and tried hard to learn a bit of English. It was really enjoyable. BUT (and I'm ashamed to relate this) Susan and I were not above using the word 'Paki' and joining in with the general racism among our schoolmates. Whatever possessed us? We loved those Asian women and sometimes tried on their clothes and ornaments. Yet we didn't see the irony or the wrong of bad-mouthing them. No adult (either teachers or our parents) ever admonished us. We were only fifteen, but still I feel hot with shame at some of the things we chanted in the lunch breaks... No different to that South African lad that 'didn't sit next to blacks' eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 16 - 01:12 AM

President Obama's address in Dallas was very moving. I think he's the most eloquent and most philosophical President that we've had in my lifetime, better even than Kennedy and Truman. Here's his address:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icGmm2uET3I

---

I came across a reading from Rumi today that addresses this subject very well:

Move beyond any attachment to names." Every war

and every conflict between human beings has happened because
of some disagreement about

names. It's such an unnecessary foolishness, because just
beyond the arguing there's a long

table of companionship, set and waiting for us to sit down.

---

What is praised is one, so the praise is one too,
many jugs being poured

into a huge basin. All religions, all this singing,
one song.

The differences are just illusion and vanity. Sunlight
looks slightly different

on this wall than it does on that wall and a lot different
on this other one, but

it is still one light. We have borrowed these clothes, these
time-and-space personalities,

from a light, and when we praise, we pour them back in.


mevlana jelaluddin rumi - 13th century
Translation by Coleman Barks

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 07:57 PM

Well I went to school in Bolton in Lancashire at a time when lots of Asian people, mostly from Pakistan, were moving into the area. The predominant and unquestioned culture in my school and in Bolton at large was was that it was perfectly OK to make Paki jokes* and to soak up uncritically the negative misinformation about those immigrants that was handed down to us by people who should have known a lot better. You know, I went to the best Catholic school in Bolton for seven years, and I swear to you that not once in all that time did those priests and brothers, so solicitous as to the wellbeing of the souls of their protégées, tell us that we should ditch our prejudices and think more kindly about the people who were coming to Britain to make better lives for their families. Not once. So when you grow up with all that received wisdom, it's pot luck as to whether you ever get to mix with people later on who will firmly put you right and get you thinking, by example, not by preaching. If you don't, you may keep those prejudices for life.

Bigotry is not hard-wired into people. We are social beings and we are hard-wired to cooperate and to build societies. Bigotry is a gross perversion of a perceived threat that in most cases isn't a threat at all. Generally, bigots attack people who are what they are by accident of birth and who have done nothing to deserve the attack. Having quiet thoughts that, if articulated, we may know would be unacceptable to other people, is not bigotry, as long as we recognise that those thoughts ARE unacceptable. That bloody car in front that slowed me down for ten miles this afternoon when I happened to be in a hurry was not driven by a woman driver after all. Thank God I managed to not give vent. To have done so would definitely have made me a bigot. To have felt guilty as I did about those evil thoughts, once I'd got past and discovered that the offending driver actually looked a bit like me, sort of confirmed my imperfect humanity. I'm happy with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 05:30 PM

That's interesting Joe when you mention pre-conditioned responses. We have to navigate around our neighbourhoods and try to keep safe by being alert and trusting our instincts. And those instincts have probably been conditioned by a myriad influences - TV documentaries, our parents' warnings as a child, experiences of friends, news items etc. I'd be more wary of being followed by a man along a street at night than by a woman. I tend to think men are more dangerous. But this isn't necessarily true. Is this bigotry, prejudice or what is called in UK 'using your loaf' ?
And would one have more faith in an older doctor than a young fresh-faced one? Or a male doctor? Or a doctor who spoke with a foreign accent? What about a vicar who was gay? Would he/she be acceptable? Why/why not? I think this is a very complex subject, and fascinating.

(By the way Joe, if chap in UK "had his pants halfway down" he'd be exposing a lot more than his underwear!)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 05:22 PM

Joe, I think bigotry, or "my people are better than your people" is hard-wired into us as humans. I think we're better people if we're aware of our tendency to feel that way and try not to let it affect how we treat people.

Fundamentally, Joe, we're saying the same thing. The only difference is you don't think the initial negative opinion of someone, based on stereotypes, is bigotry, and I do. I don't think it controls how we treat people once we've engaged our brains and their ability to adapt.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 05:05 PM

I've heard the charge that we're all bigots so often, that it seems to be part of the Liberal Creed. But if we're really all racists, then it seems hopeless to try to improve, and I guess we should all wallow in our guilt.

I think we all have pre-conditioned responses, and perhaps we all do what could be considered to be "profiling." If I see a young man with a scowl on his face and his pants halfway down and exposing his underwear, I tend to be on my guard. I think it's right to be on guard when we see certain things - but I don't think that conditioned tendency to be wary is bigotry, unless we respond negatively without giving the person a chance to disprove our initial reaction.

Maybe the young man has a scowl on his face because he's had a bad day, and his day would brighten up if I took the time to listen to him. Or maybe he has a scowl because he's angry and ready to hurt me if I cross him.

Bigotry is when we make blanket judgments about groups of people and refuse to consider them as individuals who may be different from our preconceived notions. We all have natural defenses that can lead us to bigotry, but they're not bigotry if we decide to open ourselves to going past those defenses.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 04:15 PM

Hahaha Pete! Only when they paws to think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 03:57 PM

Are your cats feline hard done by...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Jul 16 - 07:11 AM

Donuel, that's so heartening to know. And I imagine he had to face extremely hostile reactions from the other KKKs. What a brave chap, and good for him!
However I think 'bi-racial humour' is treading on very shaky ground. What may be hilariously funny to some may be deeply hurtful and/or insulting to others.
Does anyone remember a musical play called 'The Cheviot, The Stag and the Black Black Oil'? I saw this in Scotland in the Seventies. It's about the English and their involvement in exploiting Scottish resources. Its funny and has some very pithy jokes. But I sat there feeling very ill-at-ease, as all the jokes and barbs were directed at my culture and place of birth. I had every sympathy with the Scots' bitterness at their treatment, but the racist anti-English slant rather smarted.
Also, jokes about 'thick Irish Paddy and Mick'. I'm half-Irish, and it does rankle somewhat. I love a good laugh, but not at the expense of someone's race or ethnicity. Times have changed, and for the better I feel.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 05:20 PM

Senofou I know that the grand dragon of the Maryland KKK chapter was brought around and abandoned racism due to his interaction with a local black jazz musician. Now there is no MD KKK chapter.

See Mr. Red, probably the least biased among us but he can re examine bigotry. The challenge is to have people who whole heartedly reject the notion of bigotry within themselves to take a peek inside.

I still believe the PC police do a disservice when they censor bi racial humor.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 04:43 AM

Could I add "Motivated Reasoning" & the "Dunning Kruger Effect" that could help delineate bigotry?

For me it helps me be aware of "cognitive bias" in myself, and also deal with others when it presents. At least as far as the little I understand of Social Psychology.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 03:28 AM

I may have told this story before on here. When I was teaching 8 yr olds, a lad arrived from South Africa into my class. I showed him to his seat, an empty place next to Ahmed. He scowled at the poor boy and said loudly, "I daon't seet nixt to BLECKS!" (That's how he pronounced it.) The whole class gasped in utter horror. I ushered him outside for a minute and tried to explain gently about UK being a bit different, and Ahmed was very nice, and could he possibly bring himself to accept him as a desk-mate? He was adamant, so I moved the class around a little and sat him beside another pupil. Later, after several weeks, he and Ahmed were quite friendly and hung around together as they were both sports-mad.

My point is that this bigotry and racism was engendered in the lad by his early life, and the adults around him. He had sadly absorbed and embraced it. I believe that all bigots have been influenced by others around them in the same way. It's conditioning, and thus very hard to budge. A man raised in a KKK family is not easily going to conquer his racism or even wish to. Bigotry is like chicken pox. One catches it!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 03:14 AM

What super names for your moggies Steve! Over the years we've had dozens:- Minty, Misty, Mindy (very confusing) Andy Pandy, Simon, Gus, Binkie, SimpsonSamson, Solo, Murphy, Sooty, Snowy and so on and on... (I'm not very original in my naming) Loads of folk in our village are happy to feed the little terrors for us when we're away, luckily.

I think that humility is an admirable quality in anyone. Like you, I can't bear know-alls (my daft sister for example, but she isn't bigoted, and she does actually know loads of stuff) One should always be prepared to listen and learn something.
At a basic level, I think an innate goodwill towards others is a delightful characteristic to have. If one sees people as valid and worthy of respect, one won't go around slagging them off or persecuting them.
The difficulty arises when these 'other people' one is trying to understand are being racist, unkind, nasty or evil. It's very hard to feel goodwill towards bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 08:15 PM

My cats have always been mogs. Pud, Sago, Toots, Mousse, Fig, Monty. We stopped having pussycats three years ago when Monty died, as it's too hard to get someone to look after them when you want to be away if you live in the middle of nowhere. On that I don't agree with Mrs Steve, but guess who's boss.

And I hate people who are experts at things, though not quite as much as people who think they're experts at things. Well not hate, maybe. Are such people ever happy?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 07:55 PM

Speaking for myself as long as I recognize a conditioned response that is unhelpful I have a handle on a bias, stereotype or bigotry that was projected around or at me at some point.

Its easy to say we just need to know our own minds but there is always more to know.

For example I know I will never be an expert at anything. The more practice I have at one thing the more I feel like a pretender. Its probably a personal or psychological problem but I'd still like to know more.

My Siamese cat was named Kvetch.
More power to Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 01:49 PM

Ah Little Hawk! Yoo hoo! (waving madly to say 'hello!') Specism. My neighbours all think my 3 beautiful Siamese cats are a disgrace to Catdom, being slinky and pointy, whereas BRITISH CATS are chunky and sturdy. My Top Cat SmokeyPokey is running for Prime Minister. After being told on another thread that Noah probably didn't have a pair of Siamese cats on his Ark, his manifesto is based on Equal Rights for Oriental Moggies.

Vote for Chongo! Vote for Smokey!

Eliza

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 01:45 PM

If you really want to say that we are all bigots to some extent and in certain respects then you and I have different understandings of the meaning of the word (I'd rather put it that way than tell you to speak for yourself, which I was initially tempted to do). Better to say that we are all imperfect human beings who sometimes fail to see things from every side and who are capable of coming to wrong judgements. Bigots step over a line that takes them beyond that.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 01:35 PM

Overcoming specism is making headway. A ban on certain animal testing is but one front. When we successfully cross certain dogs and chimps with CRISPR we may end up with man's better than best friend.

At least Chimps would then recognize what, why and where you are pointing. Now only dogs, and not chimps, have that ability.


As for racism, life would be far more comfortable without all that extra hate. Legal Lynching by police bullet should end this year.
Literal legal lynching ended around 1935.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 12:00 PM

Yes, of course we are all bigots....to some extent...in certain respects. It's only when it passes a certain level of bigotry, however, that it becomes a real problem, but no one is entirely without some level of bigotry now and then. The Right and the Left are both rife with bigotry of various sorts, usually directed at their erstwhile opponents across the line, but very seldom acknowledged amongst themselves! :)

And then there's...specism!!! (the absolute WORST form of bigotry) Chongo Chimp intends to completely eradicate specism in the USA within 4 years of being elected. I wish him luck with that!!!!!!!! He might as well try to empty the sea with a bucket.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 09:27 AM

Research for a television programme 'Racist Britain' due to go out tonight found that racist hate attacks increased by 400 percent in the week following Brexit
Does this count as 'bigotry', do you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are we all bigots?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 16 - 08:38 PM

Well, the reason we have the two words bias and bigotry is because they mean different things. We could also add allegiance and loyalty to the mix. I support Liverpool FC and I will doughtily defend their honour against ne'er-do-wells who diss them, including one deludee hereabouts who supports Sheffield Wednesday. But deep in my heart of hearts I know that better teams exist (though not Manchester United, it goes without saying). As long as rational thought ultimately trumps our unthinking loyalties, all is well. It's when we shut off that transaction that the trouble begins.