BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 01:08 PM

"An embargo is when one nation establishes a policy not to trade with another nation and not to allow its own ports or territory to be used for commerce with that nation. Establishment of an embargo is the prerogative of any nation. For decades the United States has had an embargo on trade with Cuba. This is a policy decision which has been made by the Government. The policy may be wise or foolish, but nations are clearly within their rights to establish embargos."

"A blockade is totally different. A blockade is closing to international commerce by military force the coast of another entity. A blockade prevents third parties from undertaking normal commercial activity. A blockade is an act of war rather than merely exercising one's own prerogatives."

"The Cuban missile crisis was a crisis because the Kennedy Administration indicated to the Soviet Union that they were prepared to change their embargo of Cuba to a blockade of Cuba by forcefully intercepting Soviet ships with missiles on board. The US clearly indicated that they were prepared to go to war over this issue. The Soviet leadership avoided testing the American will by recalling its ships. No one doubted that in moving from an embargo to a blockade a state of war would exist"

Graeme Bannerman - The Middle East Institute

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 12:48 PM

"The world recognises there to be an embargo and refers to it as "A blockade" - Jim Carroll

Not quite true is that.

The world did indeed recognise that the USA and other countries imposed an embargo (an official ban on trade or other commercial activity with a particular country) - Only your cherry-picked pro-Castro bloggers refer to that embargo as a blockade (an act or means of sealing off a place to prevent goods or people from entering or leaving).

The USA only undertook a naval blockade of Cuba during the Cuban Missile crisis - it lasted for less than a month.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 12:21 PM

"Ah yes, deploying the old losers strategy once again"
You said it, how can we possibly withstand such an avalanche of eruditely presented information!!
As I said, mad as a bag of cats - and about as proncipled
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 11:47 AM

Ah yes, deploying the old losers strategy once again. It becomes you.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 11:41 AM

Leave him Steve
He's as mad as a bag of cats
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 11:31 AM

Also Sprach Bubo:

"it's kind of like looking at ratings or looking at a glass of half-full water. There's no such thing, unfortunately, anymore of facts."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 11:25 AM

Again no "blockade" no "siege" in spite of whoever uses that term. Naming something what it isn't doesn't make it that. And anyone using that term, be it Amnesty or the UN or you are lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 10:52 AM

"You advocate an embargo on Israel remember."
I advocate a boycott of Israeli goods and suggest that it is long overdue that they be tried for war crimes they have undoubtedly committed and have been saved from being tried for by a string of U.S. vetoes - the U.S. has defended Israel in exactly the same way as Russia and China have defended Assad - the only difference being that the U.S. has been at it far, far longer and had issued many, many more vetoes in defence of Israel's criminality than has Russia and China combined in defence of Assad's terrorism.
"Naming something what it isn't doesn't make it that."
Simply denying it doesn't change it from what it is and what it is universally recognised as.
You accused me of deliberately making it up - you have been proved wrong and are now refusing to withdraw that accusation.
You were dishonest then and you continue to be dishonest
Fine by me - all grist for the mill
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 10:21 AM

Jim, a blockade is an act of war.
An embargo is not.
You advocate an embargo on Israel remember.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 10:15 AM

Again no "blockade" no "siege" in spite of whoever uses that term. Naming something what it isn't doesn't make it that.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 10:08 AM

People in general don't rush off in millions to other countries unless they're refugees. The vast majority of people want to stay in the country they were born in. In the 70s, if you said you were a communist you were told to "get back to Russia then" (even though you'd never been there in the first place). You are up shit creek sans paddle with that line of argument, Teribus, and you know it. And perhaps you think we should all sign contracts gluing us to our keyboards so that we will respond instantly at his command whenever Teribus posts. I'd rather be waterboarded.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 10:02 AM

"Despite the embargo, the U.S. does do business with Cuba."
The U.S. sells goods to Cuba only and, unlike other trading nations, refuses to allow credit
As you say, some embargo.
Obama recognised the existence of the Embargo and began to remove it - Trump acknowledged its existence and has said he will consider removing it if Cuba changes her political policy - international blackmail.
The world recognises there to be an embargo and refers to it as "A blockade" - you refuse to do so and, unimaginatively borrowing from one of your gang, have described it as "more Carroll Made Up Shit®"
You have been given two examples of the term being used, by Amnesty and by The United Nations - you have yet to withdraw your accusation of my lying and you have yet to even acknowledge that this "blockade" not only exists but has done so for half a century. I WILL BE GRATEFUL IF YOU DO SO NOW - BUT WE BOTH KNOW YOU WILL NOT - YOU DON'T SEEM THAT SORT OF FELLER
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 10:02 AM

Steve,
And not ONCE have I ever seen you condemn bobad for calling us Jew-haters.

You and Jim have called me racist.
No difference.

Jim,
And you have indulged in personal abuse yourself

No I have not.
I do not regard "communist" as abusive. Do you?
Likewise "young and idealistic."

It is years since I called anyone here a muppet. I stopped when you took offence.
I did not and do not think it a term of abuse. I often call my dear grandkids muppets.

I never indulge in personal abuse, and on this thread we have all been asked to abstain.
Why won't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 08:39 AM

Despite the embargo, the U.S. does do business with Cuba. Last year, according to the Census Bureau, the U.S. exported nearly $300 million worth of products to Cuba; nearly all (96.2%) of that was in the form of meat and poultry, soybeans, corn, animal feed and other foodstuffs. The exports are permitted under a 2000 law that modified, but did not repeal, the U.S. embargo; under it, Cuba can buy certain agricultural products, medicines and medical devices from the U.S., but must pay in cash.

Some "siege", some "blockade", eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 07:48 AM

"I too have objected to personal attack here in place if reasoned debate."
And you have indulged in personal abuse yourself
"I suspect than as an idealistic young communist visiting the communist world you saw what you wanted and expected to see,"
You've stopped calling people Muppets and ignoramuses after protest, but it's never far from the surface.
"Tens of thousands of Cubans have risked their lives "
To earn a better living
You have the situation in Cuba brought about by aggressive American intervention over fifty years - do you not think that to be part of this discussion?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 07:40 AM

"People don't rush off in droves to live in Cuba/Russia/China, etc., because:......"

1: They are fully aware of the price they would be required to pay in terms of personal fulfilment, aspiration, hope and freedom.

2: They are fully aware of the personal freedoms and rights they would have to give up.

Note that Richard Bridge has not responded. He did after all state that - "A damned good deal for Cuba. And a similar revolution would be a damned good deal for the USA and the UK

Now if Richard Bridge actually truly believes that why wouldn't he want to live in Castro's Cuba. Or is it just meaningless, "right-on", "party-line" waffle from the neo-liberal left.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 07:30 AM

And millions didn't. And not ONCE have I ever seen you condemn bobad for calling us Jew-haters. Your silence on the "personal attacks" here that rather suit your cause speaks volumes. You haven't got a principled bone in your body, have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 07:23 AM

"Pretty sure everyone has caught the trend here with the usual suspects resorting to personal attack when their arguments have failed. Hopefully the mods will recognize this and act accordingly."

Well I don't see any of those "everyone" exactly flocking to support you.

I too have objected to personal attack here in place if reasoned debate.
I did have a post saying that deleted.

people tend to stay where they were born.

Tens of thousands of Cubans have risked their lives in small boats on the treacherous Florida Straits to escape, and many have paid with their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 05:39 AM

"A question for Richard Bridge where would you rather live?"#
Jaysus - not that old cliché
For crying out loud
Who wouldn't like not to live in country not kept at starvation level by a hostile power?
I'd rather live in Ireland than Britain - it has nothint to do with how either are governed nor that one is freer than the other
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 05:34 AM

I don't think even Fidel would have described Cuba as paradise. Well if he ever did it was only to boost his own people in the face of the embargo. The US badly needed an enemy like him, didn't they? Unless you've never read 1984...

People don't rush off in droves to live in Cuba/Russia/China, etc., because people tend to stay where they were born. What a facile argument, a real throwback to the 60s and 70s. Mind you, while people might not emigrate in droves, a lot of the wealthier ones were hiding their riches from the taxman in those more desirable islands you were "defending" during your Pugwash days. Ah, yes, there's more than one kind of island culture in that part of the world, n'est-ce pas?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 05:18 AM

"Pretty sure everyone has caught the trend here with the usual suspects resorting to personal attack when their arguments have failed. Hopefully the mods will recognize this and act accordingly."

Well I don't see any of those "everyone" exactly flocking to support you. And I may just remind you of this super-hypocritical, whingeing post, bleating about personal attacks and going crying to the mods, next time you call any of us "Jew-haters" as you've done countless times before, until recently from behind a wall of cowardly anonymity whilst pretending to be all sweetness and light via your alter ego. Now, as I suggested, why don't you have a go at shedding your blind ideology-driven prejudices, look at the facts of the matter for a change (which you won't find on your far-right hate-sites, by the way) and have a go at posting something BALANCED about Cuba and Castro, like SOME of us are trying to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 05:14 AM

A question for Richard Bridge where would you rather live?

So far your statements would seem to indicate Castro's Cuba:

"Castro gave Cuba freedom from starvation, freedom from homelessness, freedom from illiteracy, and health. A damned good deal for Cuba. And a similar revolution would be a damned good deal for the USA and the UK, where the oligopolists conspire to starve and exterminate the less advantaged." - Richard Bridge

Yet you remain in the UK - Why?

Could it be because in Castro's Cuba you only got all those "freedoms" as long as you lived where you were told to live, worked where you were told to work, did as the Party directed, never dared to criticise the regime for fear of being reported and exposed as a "reactionary".

I would dearly like to see any substantiation for that last bit, i.e. "the USA and the UK, where the oligopolists conspire to starve and exterminate the less advantaged" - Oligopoly means a state of limited competition, in which a market is shared by a small number of producers or sellers, thereby allowing and maintaining restricted or limited competition doesn't it? Tell me Richard what greater proponents of "oligopoly" could there be than any Communist country of the type that Castro adopted for Cuba post 1959.

Once served on what the Royal Navy called the West Indies Station. It was split into two zones. The Northern Zone covered Bermuda down to the Bahamas, the Southern Zone covered the Caribbean.

While in the Northern Zone we were under the operational control of the US Coast Guard and the main function was to patrol the channel between the northern coast of Cuba and the Bahamas Keys. The latter we searched regularly and picked up the poor unfortunates fleeing from the "paradise" that was Castro's Cuba and the other thing we searched for was for caches of weapons being smuggled into Cuba. The Southern Zone was much simpler we were there as Hurricane Guard Ships to provide immediate aid anywhere a hurricane struck.

We never encountered anyone trying to gain entry to Castro's Cuba from the surrounding countries and islands which according to Richard Bridge were all "hellholes" compared to Castro's Cuba - rather strange that isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 04:58 AM

"This statement ignores the fact that people were fleeing Cuba long after the revolution, and many of the refugees would not have been born when Batista ruled!"
So?
The effects of Batista's rule and the U.S. intervention in Cuban politics, egged on by emigrés who were part of Batista regime, have stunted Cuba's grown fo fifty years - Cuba has been unable to develop as a socialist Democracy in that time.
Is everybody who emigrates fleeing oppression or just trying to get a better living for themselves - must go and ask some of my neighbors - most of them have "fled terror at one tim or another in their lives"
Your unidentified quote was written by an American Congressional employee - The American Congress is, of course, completely innocent of all actions carried out by the American Government over the last half century, which is, of course, why you had no problems in using it and felt it totally unnecessary to identify its source.
You, of course, have no intention in replying to the acts of American terror, inequality and injustice - why should you when you quote Congress?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Dec 16 - 04:07 AM

Richard,
The people who fled Cuba were those who had, prior to the successful and popularly supported Cuban rebellion, oppressed the ordinary Cuban.

This statement ignores the fact that people were fleeing Cuba long after the revolution, and many of the refugees would not have been born when Batista ruled!
This was written in 2009

"The immigration of Cubans to the United States has increased since 1995, although the actual admission numbers have ebbed and flowed over this period. Cuba consistently ranks among the top 10 source countries for legal permanent residents (LPRs). Cuba ranked fifth as a top immigrant-sending country—after Mexico, China, India, and the Philippines—in FY2008. A total of 49,500 Cubans became LPRs in FY2008.
U.S. Coast Guard interdictions of Cubans have fluctuated since the mid-1990s, yet the general trend has moved upward. Cuban interdictions reached a 12-year high of 2,868 in FY2007. In FY2008, the U.S. Coast Guard reported 2,199 Cuban interdictions. Similarly, U.S. Border Patrol apprehensions of Cubans peaked at 4,295 in FY2007 and slipped to 3,351 in FY2008. Cubans who arrived at ports of entry without documents exhibited a comparable pattern, reaching a high of 13,019 in FY2007 and falling slightly to 11,278 in FY2008."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 11:12 PM

Nice summing up Richard
The refusal to respond to what Cuba was under Batista and what 'Democratic' America has been getting up to since the end of the War, says everything that needs to be said about our righter-than-right crowd
OK to bomb the shit out of peasants that stray from the political straight and narrow, carry out hundreds of assasination attempts on a neighboring President, gun down American students and blacks, baton people who try to get their kids educated and win the vote - 'oppressive to seize and redistribute the land, educate the people and give them a decent, free health system, and end economic exploitation.
Okay to attempt to starve a nation into submission, carry out ongoing wars to keep S.U.Vs on the road and hold and torture untried suspects for indefinite periods in inillegally intolerable and inhuman conditions - undemocratic to try and create an equal society in the face of half a century of violent opposition of the richest and most powerful State on the planet (which has now a fascist, racist, openly misogynist multi-billion thug for president (whose first action was to be forced to partially settle a law suit where one of his companies had stolen students fees).
Long live western democracy - that's what I say.
The silence on any of this will be as deafening as it has on all the other points that have been totally ignored.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 09:31 PM

Ok, not "too" - oops.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 09:31 PM

The most surprising thing to me is that he was never almost a baseball player. I used to have long discussions with the kids' dad about that, *his* dad was almost a ball player too...

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 09:17 PM

Pretty sure everyone has caught the trend here with the usual suspects resorting to personal attack when their arguments have failed. It's too bad really because there was some good discussion until they felt compelled to resort to their fallback tactic. Hopefully the mods will recognize this and act accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 09:11 PM

As I have said above, his regime was a change for the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 08:45 PM

Can't be arsed with him, Greg. He's a parasite.

I suppose we can conclude from all that's been said and written about Castro that it shows him to be a divisive figure. He used brutal methods against his enemies within, who were legion and often US-backed. Is that an excuse for his behaviour? Well it's an explanation. He did drive people out, but he did all the good things for his people that have been mentioned here and they loved him. He struggled big-time when the USSR lost interest in him as a proxy whilst at the same time enduring Reagan's vicious hostility. At the back of it all was that senseless, alienating embargo. Without that, who knows how he might have been better embraced and moderated? Praising him unconditionally to the rafters seems wrong to me. As does calling him a "brutal dictator" and leaving it at that. Neither is anywhere near correct. The US was wrong to prop up Batista and wrong to invade in 1961. The Russians were wrong to put warheads on Cuba but the yanks were wrong to put theirs in Turkey. But during all that he turned out in the end, to his chagrin, to be sidelined by the superidiotpowers. The superidiotpowers who had created him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 06:26 PM

I posted this on the Trump thread, but its equally germaine here, as it could have been made by Bubo:

"One thing that has been interesting this entire campaign season to watch is that people that say facts are facts; they're not really facts. Everybody has a way, it's kind of like looking at ratings or looking at a glass of half-full water. Everybody has a way of interpreting them to be the truth or not true." She continued: "There's no such thing, unfortunately, anymore of facts."

Trump surrogate Scottie Nell Hughes last week on The Diane Rehm Show:

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:42 PM

Thank you for your opinion but considering who it's coming from I shall give it the consideration it is worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:35 PM

Except that I'm dealing in facts here, not opinions. Not once have I ever seen you take a balanced, ideology-free view of any topic, and this one is no exception. It's quite significant that you never attract support. You are an embarrassment even to the people here who are potentially your allies. And you are, as we all know, a cheat, outed only by the change of rules on anonymous guest posting. No wonder no-one associates with you.

Reply if you like. But, as far as I'm concerned, this topic from now on is about Castro and Cuba. I suggest you make a contribution that is actually worth something.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:24 PM

You are clueless and out of your depth, bobad.

As your friend Greg says: "opinions are like arseholes"

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:13 PM

You are clueless and out of your depth, bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:09 PM

So one gangster replaced another gangster and became a whore to the Soviet Union gangsters instead of the US gangsters.....whoop de effin' doo.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 03:45 PM

*oligopolists*. Where is the that "edit" button?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 03:45 PM

I have had enough of this shit.

The Batista regime sold the people of Cuba to the Mafia or left them to starve on the streets. It oppressed, imprisoned, executed, and otherwise dispossessed and killed to a greater extent than the Castro regime. Remember the "10 to 1" order that Batista gave? If your measure of legitimacy is simply the alleged "oppression" the Castro regime was at least no worse and probably better than the Batista regime.

The people who fled Cuba were those who had, prior to the successful and popularly supported Cuban rebellion, oppressed the ordinary Cuban. Many went straight back into US mafia organisations or clones thereof. As Castro said - those he executed were the criminals who deserved execution.

On the other hand, Castro gave Cuba freedom from starvation, freedom from homelessness, freedom from illiteracy, and health. A damned good deal for Cuba. And a similar revolution would be a damned good deal for the USA and the UK, where the oligolists conspire to starve and exterminate the less advantaged.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 02:57 PM

"The negative impact of the embargo is pervasive
in the social, economic and environmental
dimensions of human development in Cuba,
severely affecting the most vulnerable socioeconomic
groups of the Cuban population."
Office of the Resident Co-ordinator of the United Nations system for operational activities for development, July 2008.29
United Nations
AMNESTY REPORT
ILLEGALITY of BLOCKADE "

ERADICATION of POVERTY in CUBA
POVERTY GAP in U.S.
"Like I said no blockade just more Carroll Made Up Shit®"
Tell it to the United Nations and Amnesty
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 02:22 PM

Opinions are like arseholes, Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:52 PM

Again I quote from Solidarity: (an independent socialist organization dedicated to forming a broad regrouping of the U.S. left.)

"despite the strenuous efforts of the U.S. government, Cuba has not been isolated from most of the rest of the globe. The main causes of Cuba's poverty must surely be domestic."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:50 PM

Like I said no blockade just more Carroll Made Up Shit®

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:37 PM

50 YEAR BLOCKADE
NO BLOCKADE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:34 PM

(50 year blockade)

Bullshit - no such thing - more Carroll Made Up Shit®

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:21 PM

An interesting statistic.
U.S. citizens below poverty line -14.5% (no blockade)
Cuban citizens below poverty line - 1.5% (50 year blockade)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:02 PM

Whoops - again!
Someone mentioned the shortahe of soap in Cuba earlier
TRY THIS FOR "SHORTAGE"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:00 PM

Somementioned the shortage of soap in Cuba earlier

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 12:39 PM

"Pragmatic approach to the Berlin Wall" of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 12:36 PM

Not now Keith, I'll play with you later.
This gets more and more stupid
All this dates back to 1917 - nothing to do with repressing or enlsaving people - why the **** should it have?
You have two political systems in conflict - one based on profit and acquisition, the other put in to motion to end that system.
New Communism was considered an enemy of world capitalism and from the Russian Revolution onward every effort was made to crush it, even to the extent of welcoming the rise of German Fascism as "A BULWARK AGAINST BOLSHEVISM "
A PRAGMATIC approach was adopted by the West as it had its uses.
Castro brought Bolshevism to the doorstep of the U.S. - the U.S. was the forst to accept him, but dropped him as soon as they found he was not prepared to be another puppet.
From day one of the Cuban Revolution, America was the aggressor - in it's own interests, as little to do with the freedom of the Cuban people as was the support the U.S. gave to despots throughout Souuth and Latin America - Haiti's Doc Duvalier was one of America's favorite despots.
Try dealing with those facts instead of Cold War sterotyping
"and the wall across the whole of Germany was another 866 miles."
There was no other "wall" Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 12:22 PM

Jim, your link "This documented evidence" is no such thing.
It is just an opinion piece by someone called Stephen Gowans, and it contradicts nothing factual I posted.