BS: Fake News

Subject: BS: Fake News
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 08:38 AM

There has been a lot of talk about "fake news" and how the evil Conservatives are twisting the facts. Perhaps a more balanced look would show that BOTH sides have been acting in this manner, and perhaps Liberals need to look at what they are being told, as well.




http://finance.yahoo.com/news/nypd-muslim-teenager-reported-harassment-230401800.html


http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-election-win-racial-incidents-2016-11

"Editor's note: This story has been updated to reflect that the student at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette admitted to fabricating her claims. "

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 08:43 AM

If there was no fake news most of the discussions on this forum would have nothing to say. Both the mainstream and alternative media spray false narratives like confetti.
   The challenge faced by all is trying to determine where the real truth lies. Just who, if anyone, can be believed?

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 08:43 AM

Your thread title is fake. Both news items are true. The fake bits are not the news but the made-up stories that the news truthfully reported.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 08:46 AM

Agreed, Iains.



Too bad too many here will not discuss things, but only attack those they disagree with.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 08:50 AM

Mr Shaw,

The MSM has been reporting that all these incidents are caused by people encouraged by Trump.

It seems to me these specific reports would say that there are a number of reported incidents performed by those who are trying to make Trump look bad. Yet attempts to point this out are met with scorn and abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 09:00 AM

You can meet the challenge of getting accurate news by adopting several strategies. First, approach information in an objective, non-partisan, open-minded way. Otherwise you will get only the news that you want to hear. Second, avoid tendentious-minded sources. Websites run by lobbies and pressure groups, or which you know to be excessively right- or left-wing, or by one political strand out of many, can be relied on to provide very lopsided news. Third, learn how to spot tabloidism. There was a headline in the Mail a couple of days ago that referred to "arch-remoaner Ben Bradshaw." That guarantees two things: a biased report coming up, and a report that mixes news with comment. If you see that it should disqualify that paper permanently in your mind as a reliable source. Fourth, newspapers and telly news bulletins have a limited amount of space/time. Someone has to decide what's in or out, how much should be given to each item and in what order they are presented. The only round this is to look at as many different sources as possible of the kinds that have jumped through the hoops described in points one to three.

In other words, use your brain. Accept nothing without evidence and/or corroboration. Healthy scepticism is a wonderful thing. And don't automatically diss a source that you disagree with. It's quite likely that it's you who's wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 09:03 AM

Well, Bruce, the fact is that a report that someone has been making things up is true news, not fake news, as long as it's true that things were indeed being made up. So this thread is not about fake news. It's about people who make up stories who then get into the news in consequence. Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 09:10 AM

Good post at 9:00, Steve. I would only add the importance of getting as close to the source as possible (eg Hansard for what was said in the UK Parliament) otherwise you have interpretation and comment upon interpretation and comment upon interpretation and comment, by which time the original event is deeply buried.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 09:11 AM

Agreed!

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 09:24 AM

Mr. Shaw,

As I have stated in previous threads, I try to get news from all sides- I read Al Jazeera, NYT, WPO, as well as a number of others. But when I post quoting them, I am being told that the SRS rule applies- "Only believe those sites that one apriori agrees with"

I agree with your post of 09:00- a well written statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 09:30 AM

Many may disagree but to me the story that the Russians have manipulated the recent Presidential election strikes me as a very false narrative.
For this do be true I have to believe 2 things:
1) The Russian intelligence services are very clever. This I can believe.
2)The CIA are truly extremely incompetent, not fit for purpose and should be disbanded immediately for not having determined the Russians had successfully hacked and hijacked the entire election process.
This I cannot believe.

For an organisation with a track record of subverting governments world wide for 50+ years not to be able to detect hanky panky in their own backyard is a required belief too far.
Some one must be 'aving a larf!

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 09:31 AM

"Fake news resulted from a "propaganda campaign" that was furthered by news organizations and politicians, including President Barack Obama, Emmy Award-winning journalist Sharyl Attkisson told Newsmax TV on Wednesday.

"Before about Sept. 13, if you search the news, you won't find many or any mentions of fake news," Attkisson told "The Steve Malzberg Show." "As soon as there was, in my view, a propaganda campaign to put this on the plate of the American public, the news media and politicians — including President Obama — went hog-wild with the term, and it started making headlines every day.

"It wasn't a new invention — and, yes, fake news exists, but the idea that there's a huge campaign behind it to controversialize certain reports and censor, in my view, certain views is a propaganda campaign."

Attkisson, a former investigative reporter for CBS News, examines the issue in her forthcoming book, "The Smear."

"When David Brock, Hillary Clinton's ally from Media Matters [for America], announced that he would be the arbiter, or help the arbiter of so-called fake news, that sealed the deal that the whole thing is a propaganda effort and a political effort," Attkisson said.

Attkisson said the fake news was "not really an honest effort to seek out facts, but more to determine for other people what truth they should hear." "

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 09:54 AM

I applaud Facebook's efforts to counteract "fake news" but I'm not at all certain that an algorithm can be created to accomplish that. However, using several sources for "fact checking" is a good idea.

However, you can do that yourself. When a posting says something like "Police gun down Boston dissidents" or "President suspends habeas corpus" you might just check on things like the dates. The first might be March 5, 1770 and the second to Lincoln's General Orders No. 141, September 25, 1862 which suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War.

Then read the article. Very, very often you'll find that includes "weasel words." "Trump's FEMA may arrest liberals and execute them" does not mean that it is happening; it says it COULD happen. Likwise, "Obama wants to shut down space program!" does not mean it will happen -- for one thing, Congress has a say in such things.

In fact, let's stop labeling governmental agencies. It's not "Truman's War Department" or "Bush Supreme Court" anymore than it's "the Queen's Parliament" or "Merkel's Bundestag."

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 10:06 AM

Hey CowFart! No fake news? What about Breibart? What about the Pizza Ping Pong deal? What about the "massive voter fraud" bullshit?

What about this??

**
How Google's search algorithm spreads false information with a rightwing bias

Olivia Solon and Sam Levin in San Francisco
Friday 16 December 2016 06.00 EST

Search and autocomplete algorithms prioritize sites with rightwing bias, and far-right groups trick it to boost propaganda and misinformation in search rankings

Google's search algorithm appears to be systematically promoting information that is either false or slanted with an extreme rightwing bias on subjects as varied as climate change and homosexuality.

Following a recent investigation by the Observer, which found that Google's search engine prominently suggests neo-Nazi websites and antisemitic writing, the Guardian has uncovered a dozen additional examples of biased search results.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/16/google-autocomplete-rightwing-bias-algorithm-political-propaganda

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 02:16 PM

"The problem with info we get from the internet is, we can never be sure if it's true." (Abraham Lincoln)

The last I knew, this shit was illegal in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 02:42 PM

we can never be sure if it's true

But the smart money is on it being garbage.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 03:02 PM

Chill on the name-calling, Greg. The rest of us get bored when you and Bruce resort to calling each other names. It's so juvenile.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 03:18 PM

So, Bruce, have you figured out what "fake news" is? It's not some individual turning in a false report. That happens all the time. If a news agency reports that as fact without bothering to fact-check, it becomes fake news.

Falsehoods that have been disproved but are still repeated, that's fake news. A good example is the stuff about members of Congress getting full-salary pensions and free health insurance after any length of service. That stuff has been broadcast as fact for years and years. It takes well over 30 years of service for a member of congress to retire at full salary - and even then, they have to continue paying for their health insurance.

The thing about Mrs. Clinton and the pizza parlor sex ring - that's both fake news and preposterous, but people believe it. And yes, both sides resort to fake news on occasion - but in the case of Trump, it was the candidate himself who was broadcasting the lies while calling his opponent "lying Hillary."

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 03:30 PM

So the first report was "as fact without bothering to fact-check, it becomes fake news.".


http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-election-win-racial-incidents-2016-11

"Editor's note: This story has been updated to reflect that the student at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette admitted to fabricating her claims. "

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 05:34 PM

On the day after Mr Trumps election victory, I watched President Obama assure us all that the people had spoken and his administration would do all in their power to help the new President Elect take over.
He even thanked Ex President Bush for his help when He, Mr Obama, assumed office......"That is how we Americans do things" quoth he!

Changed days, as he now appears to be trying to make the change over as difficult as possible, given the truly laughable fake news about President Putin personally overseeing the hacking of the corrupt Democratic Party



Even if this nonsense was true...wouldn't it be a case of "shooting the messenger?"

You really couldn't make this shit up.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 06:02 PM

fake news about President Putin personally overseeing the hacking of the corrupt Democratic Party

"Fake"[sic] to you, perhaps, as you're one of the 'post truth" contingent- but substantiated.

he now appears to be trying to make the change over as difficult as possible

That's because the Piece Of Shit Elect and his cabinet of deplorables are antithetical to everything the U.S. is supposed to stand for, Ache.

As a good socialist (yeah, right) you should be able to comprehend this.

vide, "Mister Block" by Joel Hëgglund.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 06:22 PM

I don't believe that the Facebook algorithm, etc. has been implemented yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 06:40 PM

Death to The Onion and SNL, its all fake news.

Oh only on Facebook, nevermind

Anyone who depends on Facebook deserves anything they get.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 07:00 PM

Anyone who depends on Facebook deserves anything they get.

And they got The Trumpshit.

God help AmeriKKKa

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 07:01 PM

The electoral college is an 18th century relic which was part of a compromise with Southern slaveholders states who wanted the votes of their 3/5 citizen slaves counted. The electoral college was proposed.

FAKE NEWS
or
Real News

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 03:32 AM

Back in the days of Goebbels false was was called propaganda.
(If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it)

This description later got a bit passé, so it was updated and called smoke and mirrors. However the citizenry got wise to this as well.

The latest transmogrification is now being presented as false news and presented as a brand new child of the internet.

Utter garbage. The only thing that is new about it is that the mainstream news in concentrated in too few hands, has a definite agenda and peddles false news with gay abandon.

It is hardly surprising they (the shadowmen in charge of the purse strings and puppet strings) wish to shut down purveyors of truth.
It inhibits their game plan and frustrates their purpose.
Call me a conspiracy theorist if you like __ but just watch how this all pans out in the near future.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 03:38 AM

Ake, I have to admit that the allegations that Russia hacked Democratic Party files and worked to influence the election seemed preposterous, and I was embarrassed that the Clinton campaign would even talk about it during the election campaign. It just seemed too strange to be true. But now we have credible intelligence agencies saying the same thing. It still seems preposterous, but I think I believe it now.
It certainly seems to be worthy of investigation.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 03:57 AM

Joe....."credible intelligence agencies" ?????.

These are the people who have consistently lied to us about every intervention and murky action that the West has been involved in.
Vietnam, Iraq, Libya, Grenada, Cuba, fifty years of subversion in South America.

Do they lie and dissemble?   Do bears shit in the woods!

As you rightly say, the whole notion is preposterous, it is dismissed out of hand and described as laughable by Serge Lavrov, who appears to be completely sincere in his analysis of the situation in Syria.

In my opinion this "fake news" is simply a desperate ploy to have the election declared invalid.    An extremely dangerous course of action.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Iains
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 04:38 AM

Once upon a time the discussion used to be about the fog of war, but there is very little about the peasouper of peace. Sexed up dossiers and mythical weapons of mass destruction used by Blair to take Britain to war, the Mysterious death of Dr Kelly, so clear cut there was no proper inquest and the Hutton enquiry is seen by many as inept and it's conclusions wrong. The government wanted to portray him as a walter mitty character yet had hired him to run Porton Down. Does a Walter Mitty character pass all the required security vetting for such a post?
When it comes to lying to the populace governments are past masters at it.


http://guides.library.jhu.edu/c.php?g=202581&p=1334961

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 07:45 AM

Iains,

A propagandist has about 200 different colors to choose and mix from a pallet of lies, or as I call it, political hypnosis.

Like all the different words we have created for 'shell shock' or as we now say PTSD, wouldn't it be best to call it one thing forever.

I believe it is better to understand the serious import of propaganda as political hypnosis instead of calling it minimized and innocuous
things like spin.


or twisting
misleading dissemblingstardissimulatingstardouble-crossingdouble-dealingstarequivocating falsifying fibbing inventingrmisrepresentingmiprevaricatingtwo-timingwrong deceitfuldeceptivedelusive

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 10:33 AM

the mainstream news in concentrated in too few hands, has a definite agenda and peddles false news

The "mainstream news" has and does???

Congratulations! Once again, you've got that completely ass-backwards!!

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 10:39 AM

We'll just turn our intelligence agencies over to you, Ake. I'm sure they'd be glad to have the benefit of your superior knowledge of how the intelligence world really works.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 10:50 AM

Or how the ENTIRE world really works!

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Stu
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 12:37 PM

"... by Serge Lavrov, who appears to be completely sincere in his analysis of the situation in Syria"

Gobsmacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 07:38 PM

On Facebook the other day someone posted a ALARM!! asking for readers' support in countering President Obama's "Ban on Christmas!!", going on to say that "President" Trump will save it, "in the spirit of Christ".

I wrote back that neither President Obama nor anyone else has "banned Christmas" and that if Trump is their idea of a Christian, I have some Kansas ocean front property to sell, etc, etc.

Someone else responded: "Have a look at Mr. Obama's Christmas card."

I didn't bother.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 08:20 PM

Get the hell off Farcebook and do something worthwhile in the real world that might actually counter the Trumpist bigots.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 09:27 PM

The TV media was restructured after the Viet Nam war ans again after 9-11 .

In the USA ABC, CBS and NBC broadcast the nearly identical stories for 15 minutes in order and all end with their own fluff piece at the end.

Even cable news has elements of this organized format.

It is no accident but a unified coordination of the CIA and FCC.

We now have a Channel called AHC by Newsmax an alt right channel with no news but shows Hitler videos all the time. Tonight they justified the Nazi experiments on Jews as a great advancement to American heroes like John Glen who got to space based on the Nazi rocket science and the knowledge gained from man's needs in the hostilities of vacuum and temperature extremes of space.

Their Hitler videos have he look and feel like the videos of 15 years ago but are hard propaganda. They also show the early documentaries side by side with their new format.

I call AHC the all hitler channel.

You can call it propaganda but it is more sophisticated and uses methods far more insidious than Goebbels.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 10:04 PM

BTW the AHC channel sandwiches their commercial breaks with sappy Ronald Regan readings, Milton Friedman or some other government hater.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 03:24 AM

There was a remark some posts back that there was no mention of fake news before September 13th and this was being read as an indication of a conspiracy or organised attempt to create the story (which would make it fake news in an artistically pleasing sort of way)

But that ignores the distinction between things and their names and also how idea spread. In this case we had people talking about lies and propaganda and misrepresentations and distortions being reported in tradional and social media then someone came up with a catchy name for it and everyone started using it. But the spread of the name and the spread of the thing itself are two different things. The September 13th date is about the use of the name not the thing itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Iains
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 04:18 AM

I am surprised the 2016 buzz word post truth has not made it into this thread. A classic denial of reality.
Even the font of "all knowledge" the gruniard feels obliged to comment:


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/16/not-post-truth-simpler-words-lies-aleppo-trump-mainstream

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 04:42 AM

This may only be my interpretation but as I understand the term, the Guardian is making what is called a category error. A piece of fake news may be a lie. Any statement or position piece may be a set of interrelated lies. But "post truth" is not a statement about articles; rather it is a description (of sorts) of society. In particular, of society's attitude to lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 05:38 AM

Here in the UK the Daily Torygraph published an article about the resignation of three members of the CIS (Cambridge Intelligence Seminar) at a Cambridge University College (Pembroke).
One, a retired director of MI6 and one past attendee was Mike Flynn - now advisor to Tumpy**.
They resigned because they detected Russian influence at the publishing house they used for their papers. According to Oleg Gordievsky, who knows the KGB from the inside, there is a plethora of Russian funded outfits like "Russia Today" geared to spread propaganda.

Now it is not a stretch to imagine some of those coterie are behind the fake news on Farcebook and Twatter etc. I heard of people being interviewed on the radio who were paid 1000 Euros to spread newz for a month. And he said he only did it for 1 month, others he knew continued. These were refugees who had made it to EU countries.

We know there is fake news out there. We knew, when we saw it, it was preposterous. And we knew it was deliberate and orchestrated. But I for one thought it was just Barrage & Trumpy pushing it. I dont believe that now.

** Now think- Trojan Horse?

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 03:29 PM

The big problem with fake news is that common sense doesn't provide much of a guide to tell you what's fake and what's real.

I mean you can't really imagine a headline that is more on the face of it fake news than "Trump elected as President".

It's getting like every day is April Fools Day, when you go through the paper looking for the spoof story, and virtually every story leaps out as a likely candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 04:42 PM

This one was run out of the U.K.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 05:05 PM

It's getting like every day is April Fools Day

Every day is April Fool's Day at Fox News[sic] and Breibart, for example - and has been for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Dec 16 - 04:35 AM

That NY Times page does not surprise me. Gordievsky said there were 20 covertly Russian outfits operating in London. Described as low level, their effect on Brexit & Trumpy is not altogether low level IMNSHO.

But that is the modern warfare. Bombs are too obvious, Farcebook is insidious. But we haven't learned to use it properly - they have!

Yea, Yea, we have engaged in propaganda for years. But we thought we new how to! I think the word is hubris !

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 16 - 05:12 AM

The CIA have been honing their skills in the fake news department since their inception, and often accompanied this with more direct actions.
They can hardly complain when other state agencies invite themselves to the party.
    However when it comes to Russian influence on the recent election, this supposed interference was announced very late in the day.
Could it be more to influence public opinion for a deep state coup to be taking place to replace Trump?
    We will soon find out.
Should this occur, where does it leave democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: JHW
Date: 19 Dec 16 - 05:24 AM

Latest from the manger - Its a Girl

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 16 - 10:59 AM

Voter Fraud? Not. Here's some REAL news:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/18/us/voter-fraud.html

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Dec 16 - 12:53 PM

I propose a proven campaign political lie become a disqualifying offense. Indictment will be jointly the responsibility of FEC, FBI and CIA. Joint Congress, the President and the Supreme Court each have one vote to acquit or prosecute in a 2/3 majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Dec 16 - 01:28 PM

graphic warning

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 16 - 07:13 PM

I make that nine political institutions with proved records as telling lies requiring to rule collectively on whether a candidate has lied...

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Dec 16 - 07:17 PM

I propose a no holds barred hand to hand combat between the accused liar and accuser.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 02:45 PM

Is there anything to this?
It seems to be something Trump would deny.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Jun 18 - 10:53 PM

It wouldn't surprise me. Kim Jung Un executed his uncle, an advisor, by anti-aircraft gun a few years back. This would be status quo in the DPRK. Mind you, I couldn't find any mention of it in Yonhap, NHK World, or 38 North; doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Fake News
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 03:28 PM

Thanks, rapparee, that's the sort of thing i was wondering.
The closer you look, the more unsettling it is.
The execution described -- presuming this really happened --
would have taken place in April, or near April ,
not in the past month.
It's just making [Korean] news now.