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Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
Related threads:
Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART IV (91)
Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III (115) (closed)
Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II (124) (closed)
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Subject: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 21 Dec 16 - 04:18 PM
-Joe Offer-
Hi, |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 21 Dec 16 - 04:33 PM Hi, Here's one branch of the tree: "Brisk Young Sailor" (broadside) as printed in Axon Ballads No. 55 Washington, printer; Mancester. A brisk young sailor courted me, He stole away my liberty, He stole my heart with a free good will, I must confess I love him still. Down in the meadows she did run, A gathering flowers as they sprung, Every sort she gave a pull, Till she had gathered her apron full. When first I wore my apron low, He followed me through frost and snow, But now my apron is up to my chin, He passes by and says nothing. There is an alehouse in this town, Where my love goes and sits him down, He takes another girl on his knee, Why is not that a grief to me. Ah, griev'd I am, I'll tell you why, Because she has more gold than I, Her gold will waste, her beauty blast, Poor girl she'll come like me at last, I wish my baby it was born, Set smiling on its father's knee, And I was dead and in my grave, And green grass growing over me. There is a bird all in yonder tree, Some say 'tis blind, and cannot see, I wish it had been the same by me, Before I had gained my love's company, There is a man on yonder hill, He has a heart as hard as steel, He has two hearts instead of one, He'll be a rogue when I am gone. But when they found her corpse was cold, They went to her false love and told, I am glad says he, she has done so well, I long to hear her funeral knell, In Abraham's bosom she does sleep, While his tormenting soul must weep, He often wished his time o'er again, That his bride he might make her merry & marry her soon. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 21 Dec 16 - 04:37 PM Hi, Here's another branch: Sheffield Park IN Sheffield park, O there did dwell, A brisk young lad, I lov'd him well, He courted me my heart to gain, He is gone and left me full of pain. I went up stairs to make the bed, I laid me down and nothing said, My mistress came and to me said, What is the matter with you my maid. O mistress, mistress you little know, The pain and sorrow I undergo, Its put your hand on my left breast, My panting heart can take no rest. My mistress away from me did go, Some help, some help I will have for you, No help, no help, no help I crave, Sweet William brought me to the grave. So take this letter to him with speed, And give it to him if he can read, And bring me an answer without delay, For he has stole my heart away. She took the letter immediately, He read it over while she stood by. And soon he did the letter burn, Leaving this maid to make her mourn. How can she think how fond I'd be, That I could fancy none but she, Man was not made for one alone, I take delight to hear her mourn. Then she return'd immediately, And found her maid as cold as clay; Beware young maids don't love in vain, For love has broke her heart in twain. She gather'd the green grass for her bed, And a flowery pillow for her head, The leaves that blow from tree to tree, Shall be a covering over thee. O cruel man, I find thou art, For breaking my own child's heart, Now she in Abraham's bosom sleep, While thy tormented soul shall weep. Pitts, Printer, wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse 6, Gt. St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials. (c. 1820s) Image: Vignette wood engraving showing lovers standing and holding hands, before a tree and cottage to the left (birds on the ground in the foreground), and a sailboat on water to the right in the background. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 21 Dec 16 - 04:55 PM Hi, This is a more modern version of 3rd branch. Here are the first seven stanzas of this print (see Bodleian for last two) the suicide (hard to read) is next: The Rambling Boy- Pitts broadside 1. I am a wild and a rambling boy, My lodgings are in the Isle of Cloy, A wild and a rambling boy I be, I'll forsake them all and follow thee. 2. O Billy! Billy! I love you well, I love you better than tongue can tell I love you well but dare not shew, To you my dear let no one know. 3. I wish I was a blackbird or thrush, Changing my notes from bush to bush, That all the world might plainly see, I lov'd a man that lov'd not me, 4. I wish I was a little fly, That on his bosom I might lie. And all the people fast asleep, Into my lover's arms I'd softly creep. 5. I love my father I love my mother, I love my sisters and my brothers I love my friends and relations too, I would forsake them all to go with you 7. My father left me house and land, Bid me use it at my command; But at my command they shall I never be; I'll forsake them all love and go with thee. Anyone with additional versions or comments? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Dec 16 - 05:13 PM A whole bunch of early versions heading your way soon, Richie. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 21 Dec 16 - 05:17 PM Hi, Here are the last two stanzas of Rambling Boy- it could read it but two other versions appear similarly: 8. Her father he came home that night And asking for his heart's delight. He went up stairs, the door he broke. He found her hanging in a rope. 9. He took a knife and cut her down, And in her bosom these lines he found: Dig me a grave both wide and deep. And a marble stone to cover it. Apparently these are the later broadsides. No rhyme in the last line of last stanza :) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 21 Dec 16 - 05:27 PM OK Steve!!! Here's one more branch the north American branch where it also appears as a cowboy song: Text from a broadside by Henry J. Wehman, Song Publisher, No. 50 Chatham Street, New York City. The Butcher Boy. In Jersey City, where I did dwell, A butcher-boy I loved so well, He courted me my heart away, And now with me he will not stay. There is an inn in the same town, Where my love goes and sits him down; He takes a strange girl on his knee, And tells to her what he don't tell me. It's a grief for me; I'll tell you why: Because she has more gold than I; But her gold will melt, and her silver fly; In time of need, she'll be poor as I. I go up-stairs to make my bed, But nothing to my mother said; My mother comes up-stairs, to me Saying "What's the matter, my daughter dear?" "Oh! mother, mother! you do not know What grief, and pain, and sorrow, woe— Go get a chair to sit me down, And a pen and ink to write it down." On every line she dropped a tear, While calling home her Willie dear; And when her father he came home, He said, "Where is my daughter gone?" He went up-stairs, the door he broke— He found her hanging upon a rope— He took his knife and he cut her down, And in her breast those lines were found: "Oh! what a silly maid am I! To hang myself for a butcher-boy! Go dig my grave, both long and deep; Place a marble-stone at my head and feet, And on my breast a turtle dove, To show the world I died for love!" Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Dec 16 - 06:38 PM Here's an interesting question, Richie. how influential was that Wehman printing and how many versions predate it? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 21 Dec 16 - 07:46 PM Hi, Off the top of my head, Kittredge reported 5 print versions in the 1800s- this was one of them dated about 1880s. I have a copy of the broadside which I'll eventually post, Wehman reprinted this in the early 1900s. There's a circa 1860 print from New York in the Bodleian and I've seen one more US early print. So to answer your question, I'd say four print versions in the US predated it. As far as it's influence- there are many version that begin with "In Jersey City" but also many that slightly change the name. I just like the "an inn in" part - There was an inn in. . . sinmg that a couple times. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 22 Dec 16 - 12:19 AM Hi, There are several print version from the 1700s. This is from the "I Wish, I wish" branch. The Effects of Love - A New Song; London (no imprint), c. 1780: O! Love is hot, and Love is cold, And love is dearer than any gold; And love is dearer than any thing, Unto my grave it will me bring. O when my apron it hung low, He followed me thro' frost and snow; But now I am with-child by him, He passes by and says nothing. I wish that I had ne'er been born, Since love has proved my downfall; He takes a stranger on his knee, And is this not a grief to me. I wish that my dear babe was born, And dandled on its daddy's knee, And I in the cold grave did lie, And the green grass grew over me. Ye Christmas winds when will ye blow; And blow the green leaves off the tree, O, gentle Death, when will you call, For of my life I am quite weary. Unloose those chains love, and set me free And let me at liberty; For was you hear (sic) instead of me, I'd unloose you love, and set you free. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 22 Dec 16 - 01:36 AM Hi, A number of ballads have been collected from the "I wish" branch. The The Bishoprick Garland (1834) have a number of I Wish stanzas under "The Pitman's Love Song": I wish my love she was a grey Ewe, Grazing by yonder river side; And aw mysel a bonny black Tup, By that Ewe's side aw always would bide. Some stanzas have been associated with "Water Is Wide." A version from A. L. Lloyd was published in Come all ye bold miners: ballads and songs of the coalfields (1978). Aw wish my lover she was a cherry, Growing upon yon cherry tree, And aw mysel a bonny blackbird; How aw would peck that cherry cherree. A standard "I Wish" text would be Percy Grainger's collected in 1906 or the following version: I WISH, I WISH- Sung by Mrs C. Costello, Birmingham (M.S. and P.S.-S.1951) Mrs. Cecilia Costello sang it on Leader LEE 4054. I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain, I wish I were a maid again; But a maid again I never shall be Till apples grow on an orange tree. I wish my baby it was born, And smiling on its papa's knee, And I to be in yon churchyard, With long green grass growing over me. When my apron-strings hung low, He followed me through frost and snow, But now my apron's to my chin, He passes by and says nothing. Oh grief, oh grief, I'll tell you why - That girl has more gold than I; More gold than I and beauty and fame, But she will come like me again. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 22 Dec 16 - 02:48 PM Hi, This is one of the broadsides sent by Steve Gardham- thanks Steve. It's part of the "Brisk Young Sailor group" and has one "I wish" stanza. "A New Song Call'd the Distress'd Maid" London, (no imprint) in the Madden Collection, Cambridge University Library (Slip Songs H-N no. 1337) c.1785. A brisk young Sailor courted me, He stole away my liberty; He stole my heart with a free good will, He has it now, and he'll keep it still. When first i kept my belly low, He would follow me thro' frost and snow; But now my apron is to my chin, He passes by and says nothing. There is a ale-house in yonders town My love goes in and sits him down. He takes a stranger to his knee. Which is a most sad grief to me. In Cupid's chains I am fast bounwnd No one can loose me but my love; It's O come loose me and set me free And set me at my liberty. There is a man under yonder hill A heart he has is hard as steel, Two hearts he has instead of one he will be a rogue when I am gone. I wish my pretty babe was born And smiling in his Daddy's arms My soul to God my body to clay, Then all my sorrows fled away. This is different than the "Distressed Maid" ballads which Steve wrote an article online. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 22 Dec 16 - 03:05 PM Hi, Here's The Rambling Boy from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; printed 1799 and 1803. It also has "Answer to Rambling Boy" which I'll post separately. See also "An Excellent Garland" Manchester printed by G. Swindells dated 1800. This version is much older (some prints date c. 1750) and better than the Pitts version posted earlier. THE RAMBLING BOY. I am a rake and a rambling boy. I'm lately come from Auchnacloy; A rambling boy although I be, I'll forsake them all and go with thee. My father promis'd me houses and land. If I would be at his command; At his command, love, I ne'er will be ; I'll forsake them all love and go with thee. For houses and land they are but a plot, Houses and land I do value not; For houses and garden I will provide, And have my darling down by my side. Well doth he know I can shape and few, Well doth he know I can bake and brew, I can wash his linen and dress them fine. And yet lie's gone and left me behind. O Willie Baillie ye told me lies, You'd build me castles up to the skies, And every river should have a brigg, And every finger a fine gold ring. O Billy, Billy, I love thee well, I love thee better than tongue can tell, I love thee well though I dare not show it, My dearest dear, let no man know it. I wish I were a black-bird or thrush, Singing my notes from bush to bush; That all the world might plainly fee, I lov'd a man, and he lov'd not me. Or was I, but a silly fly, In my love's bosom then would I lie. When all the world was fall asleep, In my love's bosom then would I creep. My love he came late in the night, Seeking for his sweet-heart's delight; He ran up stairs, the door he broke, And found his love all in a rope. Then he went up and cut her down, And in her bosom a note was found, Wrote in shining letters to bright, Enough a mortal's heart to break. "Go dig my grave both wide and deep, And cover it with a marble stone; And in the middle a turtle dove, To show the world that I dy'd for love." Tis not for gold that I lie here, Nor yet for jewels, know my dear; But it is for that sweet Irish boy, That has caused my sad destiny. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 22 Dec 16 - 05:54 PM From Hamish Henderson's "Ballads of World War II": Now all you maidens sweet and kind, Just bear in mind a soldier's love is hard to find. So when you've found one good and true, Don't change the old love for a new. She was a maiden sweet and kind, Brought up in high society; A soldier in this battery Came and stole that girl way from me. Her father came home late on night, And found his house without a light; He went upstairs to go to bed, When a certain thought came in his head. He went into his daughter's room, And found her hanging from a beam; He took a knife to cut her down, And on her breast these words he found: My love is for a soldier boy, Who's gone across the deep blue sea. I often seem to think of him, But he never seems to think of me. I wish my baby could be born, Then all my troubles would be gone, But dig my grave and dig it deep, And place white lilies at my feet. (Repeat stanza 1.) [Punctuation added, line 2 re-spaced.] Henderson titles this "An R.A. [Regular Army] Ballad." He notes that it was "much sung, especially in the earlier years of the war." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 22 Dec 16 - 06:00 PM Recorded (almost) verbatim on Ewan MacColl's "Bless 'em All and Other British Army Songs" (Riverside, ?1957). He calls it "All You Maidens Sweet and Kind." Henderson doesn't provide a tune. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 22 Dec 16 - 07:41 PM As this song didn't appear until the end of WWI I think it is based on Butcher Boy and was brought over by US soldiers. It certainly featured strongly in Sod's Operas over here in WWII, |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 22 Dec 16 - 08:00 PM Hi, Steve. Offhand I don't recognize the tune as American. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 22 Dec 16 - 10:06 PM Hi Lighter, There are 21 posts many similar to the version you posted here: http://able2know.org/topic/52-2 Here's one: I dont know who wrote it, but the original lyrics of this song were sung to me by my welsh father when i was little. We still laugh about how he sang songs about a woman hanging herself to his young uns, but at the time we were transfixed... The words (which he learnt while in the army (WWII) are as follows: A miner came from work one night And found his house without a light He went upstairs to go to bed When a sudden thought came to his head He went into his daughter's room And found her hanging from a beam He took his knife and cut her down And on her breast these words he found Oh Lord I wish my child was born And all my troubles they were gone So dig my grave and dig it deep And plant white lilies at my feet They dug her grave and dug it deep And planted lilies at her feet And now she lies deep underground Where love is lost and never found So all you maidens bear in mind A soldiers heart is hard to find So if you find one good and true Don't change the old one for a new Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 22 Dec 16 - 10:19 PM Hi, Thought I'd post my favorite version of "Love Has Brought Me To Despair," Laws P25. I've come to the conclusion that this and the other versions are based on, or similar to, a broadside that Ebsworth calls "Oxfordshire Tragedy." It's in two parts but the first part (The Constant Lady and false-hearted Squire; Being a Relation of a Knight's Daughter near Woodstock Town in Oxfordshire) has these opening stanzas: Near Woodstock town in Oxfordshire, as I walk'd forth to take the air, To view the fields and meadowa round, methought I heard a mournful sound. [This was included in the first ballad Steve emailed me) Down by a crystal river side, a gallant Bower I espied, Where a fair Lady made great moan, with many a bitter sigh and groan. "Alas!" (quoth she), "my Love's unkind; my sighs and tears he will not mind; But he is cruel unto me, which causes all my misery. "My Father is a worthy Knight, my Mother is a Lady bright; And I their only child and heir: yet Love has brought me to despair. [and also] The Lady round the meadow run, and gather'd flowers as they sprung; Of every sort she there did pull, until she got her apron full. "Now there's a flower," she did say, "is named Heart's-ease, night and day; I wish I could that flower find, for to ease my love-sick mind. "But oh, alas! 'tis all in vain for me to sigh and to complain; There 's nothing that can ease my smart, for his disdain will break my heart." The green ground served as a bed, and flowers, a pillow for her head; She laid her down, and nothing spoke: alas! for love her heart was broke. * * * * LOVE HAS BROUGHT ME TO DESPAIR (sung by Berzilla Wallin c.1963, my transcription) My father he was a rich old jay My mother she was a lady fair And me a-bein' the only heir So love has brought me to despair. It's when I wore my long silk gown He follered me from town to town But now my apron just won't tie He passes my door and he won't stop in There is a street in yonders town Where my true love walks up and down He takes another girl on his knee, And tells to her what he won't tell me, He takes another girl on his knee, Oh ain't awful grief to me There is some flowers I've heard them say, That' would cure false love both night and day And of these flowers I did pull, Until I got my apron full. I gathered black, I gathered blue, But none of these flowers could I find; That would cure false love Or ease my mind. It's out of these leaves I made a bed And out of the flowers a pillow for my head It's down she lay and nary word spoke, Until her achin' heart was broke, And in green meadows 'round I thought I heard some doleful sound. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 22 Dec 16 - 10:51 PM Hi, By the way Steve, the first ballad you emailed "The Lady's Lamentation" is called a sequel and after the 4th stanza with some variation becomes "Oxfordshire Tragedy." I'll post that later. Ebworth dates "Oxfordshire Tragedy," white letter, as c.1686. Apparently there's a similar version in Timothy O'Connor MS Songbook c1778 "In Woodstock Town" ("in Oxford shore") but I don't have access to that. Anyone? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 23 Dec 16 - 12:14 AM Hi, Here's the first broadside Steve emailed me. It's mixed with Oxfordshire Tragedy c. 1686 (after stanza 4) and was called a sequel to Oxfordhire by Ebsworth. The Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her Sweetheart; Manchester Central library; c.1775. 1. A brisk young lad came courting me, He stole away my liberty; He stole my heart with a free good will, He has it now, and he'll keep it still. 2. But when my belly it was low, He followed me thro' frost and snow; But now my apron's up to my chin My love passes by and says nothing. 3. There is a ale-house in yonder town Where oft my love sits him down. He takes a stranger to his knee. Which makes me sigh in misery. 4. He takes a stranger, I know for why, Because she hath more gold than I; Her gold will waste, and her beauty blast, And she will become like me at last. 5. In Woodstock town in Oxfordshire, As I went forth to take the air, To view the fields and meadows 'round, I though I heard a doleful sound. 6. Down by a crystal river side, A gallant bower I espy'd, And there was in it all alone A fair Lady making great moan. 7. "Alas!" said she, my Love's unkind, My sighs and tears he will not mind; He is so cruel unto me, Which causes all my misery. 8. "My Father is a worthy Knight, My Mother is a lady bright; And I a child and only heir, And love has brought me to despair. 9. There is a flower as I've heard say, I wish I could that flower find, It would ease my heart, And cure my mind. 10. Then round the meadows she did run, And gather'd flowers as they sprung; Of every sort she gathered some, Till she got her apron full. 11. But when I found her corpse was cold, They went to her false love, and told What to this fair maid's chance befel, I'm glad," said he, that she's so well. 12. What did she think I so fond could be, That I could fancy none but she; Man was not made for one alone, I took delight to hear her moan. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 23 Dec 16 - 10:14 AM Hi, Here's a link to Berzilla's "Love has Brought me to Despair" which she sang when she was in her 70s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey6_HnqnodU Berzilla Chandler Wallin (1892- 1986) was a member of a family of renowned "Shelton Laurel" ballad singers in Madison County, North Carolina. Berzilla, who was there when Sharp collected ballads in 1916, was the sister of ballad singers Lloyd Chandler and Dellie Chandler Norton, and a cousin of Dillard Chandler. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 24 Dec 16 - 10:03 AM Hi, Here's a tidbit of information about title, The Isle of Cloy (Roud 23272, see question 6 above): E.J. Moeran collected The Isle of Cloy in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. A.L. Lloyd sang this song in 1956 on his Tradition album The Foggy Dew and Other Traditional English Love Songs: "It's of a lady in the Isle of Cloy" It also appears in the Pitts Broadside (above) Rambling Boy: "My lodgings are in the Isle of Cloy," In Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths by Roger Dev Renwick he says, Isle of Cloy is "not found in any official British place names [and hence may be a folk name]" Notice the slight change in The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid-- Madden Collection: "A squire's daughter near Aclecloy." to the accurate place name in a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow: "I'm lately come from Auchnacloy;" Auchnacloy is an archaic spelling (meaning "field of the stone") for Aughnacloy, County Tyrone in Northern Ireland. Isle of Cloy= Aclecloy= Auchnacloy The folk process!! Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 24 Dec 16 - 04:13 PM Hi, It should be pointed out that "Rambling Boy" (sent to sea- dies of a cannonball) from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799 as well as "Answer to Rambling Boy" and "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790 are completely different ballads from Brisk Young Sailor and all the rest. They have almost nothing in common with Butcher Boy. Cox said in 1925 that "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid" was one of 4 ballads that make up Butcher Boy- this is also not accurate- the only commonality is the suicide and last stanza. The "new" ballad "O Willie" that Roger Dev Renwick writes about in his chapter, 'Oh, Willie': An Unrecognized Anglo-American Ballad, is the old 1700s ballad 'Cruel Father/Rambling Boy,' whose variants were mixed with Butcher Boy variants in collections. Renwick fails to identify the original sources of his "new" ballad and why they were not correctly identified. He does show the differences and identifies some versions in various collections. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 24 Dec 16 - 04:22 PM Hi, It should be pointed out that "Rambling Boy" is not the Pitts broadside of c.1820 (see above) which begins, "I am a wild and rambling boy." The Pitts broadside, a completely different ballad, resembles more closely the "Brisk Young Sailor" ballads and has random generic stanzas from the "Died for Love" ballads. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 24 Dec 16 - 05:01 PM Hi, To be fair to Cox although Cruel Father/Rambling Boy is a different ballad it does have the suicide and ending stanza. And he didn't say the rest of the ballad was similar. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 24 Dec 16 - 05:13 PM Hi, This is what Cox stated in his 1925 Folk-Songs of the South: "The Butcher Boy" is made up of modified extracts from (1) "Sheffield Park"; (2) "The Squire's Daughter" (called also "The Cruel Father, or, Deceived Maid"); (3) "A Brisk Young Sailor" (or its abbreviated version, "There is an alehouse in yonder town"); and (4) "Sweet William" ("The Sailor Boy"). Randolph endorsed it in Ozark Folksongs. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richard Mellish Date: 25 Dec 16 - 07:02 AM > This is what Cox stated in his 1925 Folk-Songs of the South: "The Butcher Boy" is made up of modified extracts from (1) "Sheffield Park"; (etc) It seems to me that all of these songs are mix-and-match combinations of a whole load of floating elements, including some narrative ones (such as the courtship, and the father finding the girl hanging) and others with no narrative aspect (such as "There is a bird ..."). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 25 Dec 16 - 01:58 PM Merry Christmas!!! Here's a version of the Cruel Father/Rambling Boy branch: The Squire's Daughter (Broadside by W. Shelmerdine, Manchester c1800). Original spelling preserved. A squire's daughter near Auchen Coley, Fell in [love] with a servant boy, When her father came to hear, He parted her from her dearest dear. He anguish to increase the more, Sent her love where the cannons roar, To act the part of a gallant tar, On board the Terrible man of war. The ship was scarce three months at sea, Till she fell in with a bloody frea. It was the poor lad's lot to fall, When he lost his life by a cannon ball. The very night this young man was slain, His ghost unto her father came, With grievous groans by the bed he stood, His neck and breast were smear'd with blood. His father seeing this sad sight He lay trembling with the fright Being almost ready to die with fear Till the grim ghost did disappear The lady hearing this sad news Her sense full surely it did confuse That very night on a beam of oak, She hanged herself with her own bed rope. He went upstairs and cut her down And in her breast a note was found. And it is written as you see, Cruel father you have ruined me. Cruel father the worst of all men You have brought me to this sad end, You sent my love where cannons roar, Which prov'd his death and overthrow. Now since it's so my love is slain And buried deep in the watery main, Adieu false world my leave I'll take, I'll die a maid for my true love's sake. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Thompson Date: 25 Dec 16 - 04:18 PM What's a bed rope? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 25 Dec 16 - 06:14 PM Hi, Early beds used hemp or linen rope that was stretched over the bed frame which supported the mattress. They are called rope beds. Not sure is this was the rope used which would be a bed rope or if it was a rope for the canopy. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 26 Dec 16 - 09:56 AM Hi, A couple questions. What is the source of this stanza in Amy Birch's version? Where did she learn her version and why is it sometimes titled "Up the Green Meadows"? There is a flower I have heard people say They grow by night and fade by day Now if that flower I could find It would cure my heart and ease my mind Why is "Deceased Maiden Lover" listed as a version of the Died for Love songs in Sam Henry's Songs of the People? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 26 Dec 16 - 08:41 PM Hi, [Here's Deceased Maiden Lover which a Sam Henry's Songs of the People editor lists a version of Died For Love. It's in quatrain form with a two line chorus. I believe it's by lutenist Robert Johnson (c1583–1633)- does anyone know?] "The Deceased Maiden Lover," to the tune 'Bonny Nell,' attributed to lutenist Robert Johnson (c1583–1633); published in Playford's Ayres and Dialogues, fol. 1652. Being a pleasant new Court-Song: to an excellent new tune. Or to be sung to the tune of Bonny Nell AS I went forth one Summers day, To view the Meddowes fresh & gay A pleasant Bower I espide, Standing hard by a River side: And int a Maiden I heard cry, Alas theres none ere lovd like I. I couched close to heare her mone, With many a sigh and heavie grone, And wisht that I had been the might That might have bred her hearts delight But these were all the words that she Did still repeate, none loves like me. Then round the Meddowes did she walke Catching each Flower by the stalke, Such as within the Meddowes grew, As Dead-mans-thumb & Hare-bel blew And as she pluckt them, still crid she Alas theres none ere lovd like me. A Bed therein she made to lie, Of fine greene things that grew fast by, Of Poplers and of Willow leaves, Of Sicamore and flaggy sheaves: And as she pluckt them still crid she, Alas theres none ere loud like mee. The little Larke-foot, sheed not passe, Nor yet the flouers of Three leavd grasse With Milkmaids Hunny-suckles phrase The Crows-foot, nor the yellow Crayse, And as she pluckt them still cride she, Alas theres none ere lovd like me. The pretty Daisie which doth show Her love to phoebus bred her woe, Who joyes to see his chearefull face, And mournes when he is not in place. Alacke, alacke, alacke, quoth she Theres none that ever loves like me. The flowers of the sweetest scent, She bound them round with knotted Bent And as she laid them still in bands, She wept she waild, and wrung her hands Alas, alas, alas, quoth she. Theres none that ever lovd like me. False man (quoth she) forgive thee heaven As I do with my sinnes forgiven: In blest El[i]zium I shall sleep, when thou with pe[j]urd soule shalt weepe: Who when they lived did like to thee, That lovd there loves as thou dost me. When shee had fild her apron full Of such sweet flowers as she could cull, The green Leaves servd her for her Bed The Flowers pillowes for her head. then down she lay, nere more did speak alas with love her heart did breake. FINIS. Printed by the Assignes of Thomas Symcocke. Additional I realized I had confused "Rambling Boy" with "Answer to Rambling Boy earlier in this thread--mea culpa-- both were published in a Scottish chapbook by Robertson in 1799. "Rambling Boy" is of the Brisk Young Sailor branch and is different than "Answer To Rambling Boy." The three versions where the cruel father sends him to sea appear on my web-site as: B. The Cruel Father (sent to sea- dies of a cannonball) a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790. b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799. c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800 Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 26 Dec 16 - 09:09 PM Hi, "The Deceased Maiden Lover" is an earlier theme of a broadside that Ebsworth calls "Oxfordshire Tragedy." The title is The Constant Lady and false-hearted Squire; Being a Relation of a Knight's Daughter near Woodstock Town in Oxfordshire). In "The Deceased Maiden Lover" a maiden whose heart has been mortally wounded by a "False man" wanders about picking flowers and herbs for her death bed-- she cries "Alas there's none ere lov'd like me!" When shee had fild her apron full Of such sweet flowers as she could cull, The green Leaves servd her for her Bed The Flowers pillowes for her head. In The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire the maid performs a similar task: The Lady round the meadow run, and gather'd flowers as they sprung; Of every sort she there did pull, until she got her apron full. "Now there's a flower," she did say, "is named Heart's-ease, night and day; I wish I could that flower find, for to ease my love-sick mind. "But oh, alas! 'tis all in vain for me to sigh and to complain; There 's nothing that can ease my smart, for his disdain will break my heart." The green ground served as a bed, and flowers, a pillow for her head; She laid her down, and nothing spoke: alas! for love her heart was broke. Stanzas from "The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire" appear in the "Died For Love" Songs and "Constant Lady" is the basis for "Love Has Brought me to Despair" and a stanza is also found in the related "Sailor Boy." I'm not sure I see a close connection between "Died For Love" and Deceased Maiden Lover." Anyone? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Dec 16 - 04:45 AM A variation of one of the few versions of a song already mentioned. A SAILORS LEAVE A sailor, coming home on leave, Did find his house without a light. He crept up to his daughters room, And found her hanging from a beam. So he got his knife and cut her down, And on her breast these words he found. I loved a sailor, loved him true, Oh see what true love can do. Oh father do not weep for me, He was a sailor young and free. He took me down a shady lane, Now for his love I die in vain. Oh dig my grave go dig it deep, And place white lilies at my feet. And at my head go place a dove, To show that I have died for love. So I dug her grave I dug it deep, I placed white lilies at her feet. And at her head I placed a dove, To show that she had died for love. Now all you maidens bear in mind, A good mans love is hard to find. So if you find one good and true, Don't trade the old love for the new. Used to sing this acapella at Folk clubs in the 1970's |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Dec 16 - 10:34 AM Hi Richie, Others might find it easier to follow if you clearly separated the different autonomous laments that now have separate Roud numbers. Most scholars now use Roud numbers for clarity. Or you could use my Master Titles which I sent you. I did warn you it might drive you mad! I'll come back into the fray when I can get regular access to my computer. Some streams are not directly related to each other but share common stock from older versions. You might try to get hold of a different approach from the 1980s, championed by Indiana Uni. A book I've just acquired called ironically 'Narrative Folksong: New Directions. ed. Edwards & Manley, p59, Green Grows the Laurel. Whole book essential reading. Wish I'd had it earlier. Happy New Year, Steve |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 27 Dec 16 - 10:39 AM Jon, I'm no expert on tune relatives but it seems to me the English 'Died for Love' Roud 18828, is basically the same tune as the American 'Blue-eyed Boy' Roud 18831. and there is some slight cross-over of text. It has the ring of Vaudeville about it, quite unfolklike. It is one of my family songs by the way. Both my Uncle and my sister sang versions. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Dec 16 - 03:50 PM Just found this on Youtube... the same tune I used to sing it.... A sailor coming home on leave. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Dec 16 - 03:53 PM A sailor coming home on leave. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 27 Dec 16 - 06:40 PM Hi, Thanks Georgiansilver for the text and the link. Steve, I'll start using Roud numbers I get confused because even though they are improved- I'm not sure if they are right for certain versions. I was looking at Beam of Oak- as an example. I'll look at the book, Narrative Folksong. Please send me more broadsides if you have them and the Greig-Duncan versions. I'm starting to get the branches sorted out. This is what I have so far: A. Died for Love a. "The Effects of Love- A New Song," (broadside) London c. 1780: B. The Cruel Father (sent to sea- dies of a cannonball) a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790. b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799. c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800 d. "Sweet William," as written down about July 1, 1915, by Miss Mae Smith of Sugar Grove, Watauga county, from the singing of her stepmother, Mrs. Mary Smith, who learned it over forty years ago. submitted by Thomas Smith, Brown Collection, c.1875. e. "Rambling Boy" Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax 1916 edition. f. "The Wrecked and Rambling Boy" from Mrs. Audrey Hellums, Tishomingo, Mississippi. Hudson C, 1926 g. "Oh Willie" from Mary Lou Bell of Staunton Virginia; 1932 h. "The Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. i. "Black Birds.' Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Allegheny Couny, NC, 1938 j. "Oh Willie" sung by Rod Drake of Silsbee Texas; See Owens, 1952. k. "Rude and Rambling Boy," Buna Hicks Sugar Grove, NC , 1966. C. Brisk Young Sailor a. "The Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her Sweetheart," from the Manchester Central library; c.1775. It is mixed with Oxfordshire Tragedy c. 1686 (after stanza 4) and called a sequel to Oxfordhire by Ebsworth. b. "A New Song Call'd the Distress'd Maid," London, (no imprint) in the Madden Collection Cambridge University Library (Slip Songs H-N no. 1337) c.1785. c. "Rambling Boy," from a chapbook by J. & M. Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799. d. "Brisk Young Sailor," broadside by W. Pratt, Printer, 82, Digbeth, Birmingham; c.1850 e. "Died For Love" (A bold young farmer) Isla Cameron D. Sheffield Park (In Sheffield Park there did live and dwell) a. "The Young Man of Sheffield Park." Printed and sold by J. Jennings, No. 15, Water lane, Fleet street London; c. 1790. b. "The Young Man of Sheffield Park" printed by Evans of 42 Long Lane, London, c1794. c. "Sheffield Park" Pitts, Printer, wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse 6, Gt. St. Andrew Street, Seven Dials; London, c. 1820. d. "The Unfortunate Maid of Sheffield," Holroyd's Collection of Yorkshire Ballads by Abraham Holroyd, 1892. e. "In Yorkshire Park" sung by Robert Barratt at Puddletown, 1905. f. "In Sheffield Park" Miss E. King of Castle Eaton, Wiltshire; collected Alfred Williams, 1916. g. "In Sheffield Park," sung by Enos White with his wife- collected by Bob Copper in Axford, Hampshire about 1954. h. "Sheffield Park," sung by Frank Hinchliffe, recorded by Mike Yates and Ruairidh Greig in 1976. E. Butcher Boy ("In Jersey city where I did dwell") a. "The Butcher Boy." broadside [Philadelphia] : J.H. Johnson, song publisher, 7 N. Tenth St., Philadelphia., c. 1860 b. "The Butcher Boy," broadside from H. De Marsan (New York), 1861-1864 Bodleian, Harding B 18(72) c. 1860 c. "The Butcher Boy of Baltimore," words and music by Harry Tofflin. "Wm. J. Schmidt, 2507 W. North Ave. NY c. 1865 d. "The Butcher Boy." Broadside by Henry J. Wehman, Song Publisher, No. 50 Chatham Street, New York City; c.1890. I haven't put many of the traditional versions on- plus several broadsides that don't fit A-E, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 27 Dec 16 - 08:41 PM Ok Steve here's an example, "Beam of Oak" Roud 18830 this is according to Traditional Ballad Index which has: Beam of Oak (Rambling Boy, Oh Willie) DESCRIPTION: A farmer's daughter loves a servant man. Her father has him sent to sea. He is killed in battle. His ghost visits the father. The daughter hears about it. She hangs herself. Father finds her hanging. Her note blames the father, who goes mad AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1910 (Lomax, Cowboy Songs) KEYWORDS: battle navy death suicide father lover ghost FOUND IN: Canada(Newf) US(SE,So) REFERENCES (7 citations): Leach-Labrador 15, "Beam of Oak" (1 text, 1 tune) MHenry-Appalachians, pp. 173-174, "I Am A Rambling Rowdy Boy" (1 text, short enough that it might be a "Butcher Boy" version, but the first verse tentatively puts it here) Warner 86, "A Rude and Rambling Boy" (1 text, 1 tune) Owens-2ed, pp. 61-62, "Oh, Willie" (1 text, 1 tune) BrownII 81, "The Butcher Boy" (6 texts plus 5 excerpts and mention of 3 others; although most are clearly Laws P24, Renwick believes the "M" text is "Beam of Oak (Rambling Boy, Oh Willie)") Darling-NAS, pp. 106-107, "The Rambling Boy" (1 text) {filed here based on the title} ADDITIONAL: Renwick: Roger deV. Renwick, _Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths_, University Press of Mississippi, 2001, pp. 94-95, "Rambling Boy" (1 text, from Lomax's _Cowboy Songs_); also, on pp. 108-109, a broadside, "The Rambling Boy," from Pitts, which he considers to have influenced the song; p. 113, "(William, William, I Love You Well")" (1 text, of another related text) ST LLab015 (Partial) Roud #18830 BROADSIDES: cf. Bodleian, Harding B 25(1597), "The Rambling Boy" ("I an a wild and rambling boy"), J. Pitts (London), 1802-1819 [barely legible]; also Harding B 11(4216), "The Rambling Boy," T. Birt, London, 1833-1841 [This is the related broadside cited by Renwick, not the true "Beam of Oak/Oh Willie" song] CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24] (theme) cf. "The Isle of Cloy" (Roud #23272) (location in the "Isle of Cloy," mentioned in the Bodleian "Rambling Boy" broadsides) NOTES: This is not "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24] in spite of the suicide by hanging, the father finding the body and the suicide note. Consider the differences: the lover is faithful, the father causes the separation, the lover is killed and his ghost returns, and the suicide note blames the father. - BS Roud used to lump this with "Love Has Brought Me to Despair" [Laws P25], but this is a much more detailed song than that. At most, it might be the inspiration, but even that seems forced. The feeling seems very different -- more like "The Suffolk Miracle" than "The Butcher Boy." In more recent editions, Roud has moved it to #18830, a much more obscure song although related to "The Butcher Boy." It may be that he did this on the basis of Roger deV. Renwick, Recentering Anglo/American Folksong: Sea Crabs and Wicked Youths, University Press of Mississippi, 2001. Renwick, pp. 92-115 is an essay, "'Oh, Willie': An Unrecognized Anglo-American Ballad," which makes a case for this song's independence. Roud's list of versions doesn't correspond precisely with van Renwick's. And the suicide at the end means that fragmentary versions can hardly be classified; readers should surely check both. Renwick considers the family to include not just this song and "The Butcher Boy" but also "Love Has Brought Me to Despair," plus lyric pieces he calls "Deep in Love" and "Died for Love," which are almost beyond classification; "Waly Waly" is probably one of them. The description of this version is based mostly on Leach. Renwick, pp. 100-101, notes the usual differences between this song and "The Butcher Boy": This is told from the man's point of view, it usually opens with him describing himself as some sort of rambler, and it continues with the man's fate after the girl's suicide. Also, the father threatens Willie, and the mother generally does not make an appearance in this song. He also says on p. 107 that it oftan the woman, not the man, who was unfaithful. In broad summary, Renwick calls this a song of Family Opposition to Lovers, whereas "The Butcher Boy" is a song about an unfaithful lover. Thus, in theme, the two are quite different; it is the suicide that pulls them together.- RBW Out of Roud's 19 listings for 18830 only one of them is actually barely related to "lover sent to sea, dies by cannonball". Of course it doesn't help that Roger deV. Renwick doesn't know the source ballads or Traditional Ballad Index (author RBW). Rambling Boy is not part of 18830 and only the "Rambling Boy" is "Answer to Rambling Boy" which is a different ballad than all the rambling boy ballads. So I don't know 3 of the broadsides but by the opening line-- it looks like Roud 18830 is not the same ballad Traditional Ballad Index (author RBW) refers to. So I'm confused about what is what. Further, "Beam of Oak" should refer to the beam of oak which the maid uses to hag herself. But no- that has nothing to do with the title and also the "Isle of Cloy" is a mishearing of Auchnacloy, which is in Ireland. There is an excellent version of "Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. That version is not even mentioned. This may be Traditional Ballad Index's doing- but Roud 18830 makes no sense either. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 27 Dec 16 - 08:54 PM Hi Steve, I do appreciate what Steve Roud has done-- very helpful-- and these "Died for Love" ballads are an example of how difficult categorizing ballads can be. The problem is two-fold: 1. Apparently no one really understands the source ballads-- at least in the example above. 2. The ballads are made up of multiple source ballads some of which use the same title for different ballads. Just need more tweaking :) You have obviously been instrumental in breaking up Roud 60 and so we go. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 28 Dec 16 - 12:07 PM Hi, As an interesting "aside," I was listening to a 1935 Alan Lomax recording of Aunt Molly Jackson of Kentucky singing "Butcher's Boy": http://lomaxky.omeka.net/items/show/59 She is sing Careless Love-- with the Butcher Boy text!!! The old female vocal of Careless Love with her apron low is another appendix of this large group of Died for love songs. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 28 Dec 16 - 01:19 PM Hi, If anyone has more versions, please post them, thanks Lighter and Georgiansilver. I need help with version of this next small branch I've titled "Foolish Girl". It begins: Oh what a foolish girl was I To fall in love with an Irish boy/a sailor boy, There's a version online from Shetland isles that you can listen here: http://www.sssa.llc.ed.ac.uk/whalsay/2014/12/16/foolish-young-girl-the-2/ I only have a couple variants. Anyone? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 28 Dec 16 - 04:17 PM Hi, I did find two versions of Foolish Young Girl but I can't understand this version which appears to be titled wrong: http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/17775/3 Nothing is easy :) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: GUEST,Reinhard Date: 29 Dec 16 - 03:40 AM Sarah Makem sang the "Oh, what a foolish girl was I" line in the fifth verse of "The Butcher Boy" as recorded by Diane Hamilton in 1956 and released on her Musical Traditions anthology "As I Roved Out": In London city where I did dwell A butcher boy, I loved right well He courted me, and me heart away And then with me, he would not stay. I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain I wish I was a maid again A maid, a maid I ne'er shall be 'Til cherries grow on an apple tree. I wish my baby it way born And smiling on its daddy's knee And I poor girl to be dead and gone And the long green grass growing over me. She went upstairs to make her bed And calling up her mother said "Get me a chair 'til I sit down A pen and ink 'til I write down." At every word she dropped a tear And every line cried, "Willie dear. Oh, what a foolish girl was I To be led astray by a butcher boy." He went upstairs and the door he broke, He found her hanging from a rope. He took his knife and he cut her down And in her pocket, these lines were found. Dig my grave wide large and deep Put a marble stone at my head and feet And in the middle, a turtle dove, That the world may see I died for love. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Georgiansilver Date: 29 Dec 16 - 05:10 AM Found this and thought it might be enlightening:- The Butcher Boy [ Roud 409 ; Laws P24 ; G/D 6:1169 , 6:1171 ; Ballad Index LP24 ; trad.] Sarah Makem sang The Butcher Boy in two recordings made by Diane Hamilton in 1956. They were included in 2012 on her Musical Traditions anthology As I Roved Out. Another recording made by Paul Carter and Sean O'Boyle in 1967 was published in 2012 on her Topic anthology The Heart Is True (The Voice of the People Series Volume 24). Rod Stradling commented in the first album's booklet: The Butcher's Boy appears to be derived from at least three separate British broadsides, namely Sheffield Park, The Squire's Daughter (also known as The Cruel Father or The Deceived Maid) and A Brisk Young Sailor, which is also sometimes called There Is an Alehouse in Yonder Town. It's a very well-known ballad, with 275 Round instances, 80 of which are sound recordings, but almost all are from the USA. Ireland has only one other named singer, Andy Cash, and England has only eight entries. Frank Proffitt sang this song as Morning Fair on his 1962 Folk-Legacy album Traditional Songs and Ballads of Appalachia. It was also released in 1966 as the Topic album North Carolina Songs and Ballads. The booklet commented: Not often found in this form, this ballad is widely popular in America as The Butcher Boy, perhaps because it was widely printed in the early songsters. Brown points out that it appeared as a stall ballad in both Boston and New York. Frank learned his splendid variant from his aunt, Nancy Prather. The ballad is usually found with the following as the final couplet: And on my breast place a turtle dove To show the world that I died for love. Queen Caroline Hughes sang The Butcher Boy in a recording made by Peter Kennedy in her caravan near Blandford, Dorset, in April 1968. It was published in 2012 on her CD of the Topic anthology I'm a Romany Rai (The Voice of the People Series Volume 22). Lyrics Sarah Makem sings The Butcher Boy In London city where I did dwell A butcher boy, I loved right well He courted me, and me heart away And then with me, he would not stay. I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain I wish I was a maid again A maid, a maid I ne'er shall be 'Til cherries grow on an apple tree. I wish my baby it way born And smiling on its daddy's knee And I poor girl to be dead and gone And the long green grass growing over me. She went upstairs to make her bed And calling up her mother said "Get me a chair 'til I sit down A pen and ink 'til I write down." At every word she dropped a tear And every line cried, "Willie dear. Oh, what a foolish girl was I To be led astray by a butcher boy." He went upstairs and the door he broke, He found her hanging from a rope. He took his knife and he cut her down And in her pocket, these lines were found. Dig my grave wide large and deep Put a marble stone at my head and feet And in the middle, a turtle dove, That the world may see I died for love. Frank Proffitt sings Morning Fair As I woke up one morning fair To take a walk all in the air, I thought I heard my true love say, "Oh turn and come my way. "You told me tales, you told me lies, You courted a girl worth more than I. But gold will fade and silver will fly, My love for you will never die. "Oh, tell me, Willie, oh tell me please, Do you take her upon your knees And hug and kiss her all so free And tell her things you won't tell me? "Is it because that I am pool That you turn me far from your door To wander out in a cruel dark world Because you love a rich man's girl?" "She gave me cake, she gave me wine, I rode out in her carriage fine; She set herself upon my knee And begged and kissed me all so free. "Her father gives to me his land And also of his daughter's hand; To give it up, a fool I'd be, To trade it all for the love of thee." She went upstairs, up to her bed; A aching was all in her head; A rope she tied around the sill; They found her hanging, cold and still. There in her bosom was this note, All with her pen these words she wrote: "Heap up my grave so very high So Willie can see as he rides by." Queen Caroline Hughes sings The Butcher Boy Oh, at London town where I did dwell, Oh, the butcher boy I loved so deep. He courted me my life away And that same town where I could not stay. "Oh, mother dear, you do not know What pains and sorrows that I've had to bear. You get me a chair and I'll set down And pen and ink I will write it down." Now, her father come home late one night. He found his house without of light. Upstairs he goes in his daughter's room, Found her hanging by her beside by a rope. Oh, with a knife he cut her down And in her left breast that note were found. Oh, what a silly girl she were To hang herself for a butcher boy. "Now, mother dear, you order my grave, You order it neat and very long. You'll put white lilies now head and foot, And in the middle you placed a dove To show this wide world I died for love." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Georgiansilver Date: 29 Dec 16 - 05:17 AM The Butcher Boy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 29 Dec 16 - 01:33 PM TY for the versions, "Foolish Young Girl" begins as follows, this version sung by Jean Elvin, of Buchan: A foolish young girl was I, was I, To lend my love to a farmer's boy; A farmer's boy although he be, He spoke broad Scotch when he courted me. The line "O what a foolish girl was I," is found in many versions of the Butcher Boy- but not as the opening stanza- or in that form. I have now six versions, 2 of which are broadsides and older. Another title for "Foolish Young Girl" is "Irish Boy" which again is used for other songs "Wee Irish Boy" is somewhat similar but a different song. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 29 Dec 16 - 03:07 PM Hi Richie, Yes, I was responsible for the renumbering in the Roud Index regarding this family of laments, not Roger. The simplest approach here is to follow the autonomous laments and ignore initially the overlaps. The evolution and probable sources, so much simpler with narrative pieces, are here an absolute minefield as they cross over so often. Also much of what has been printed previously is likely to be wrong as it doesn't follow this approach, so only close study of each version will bring anything like an accurate classification. FWIW I think any English/Irish versions of Butcher Boy have come back from your side of the pond. Using the list I sent you of the separate Master Titles and Roud Numbers it should be easy enough to place any given version that is not a fragment into one of these. Fragments in the case of these laments are always going to be difficult to place and you may need to use geographical info or tunes to place them. if you are struggling to place a particular text come back to me and I will advise. You seem particularly interested in Rambling Boy so I'll look at that first. If I remember correctly it is the earliest source of the 3 suicide stanzas which were taken into 'Butcher Boy' and from there into 'Died For Love'. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 29 Dec 16 - 10:28 PM Hi Steve, I emailed you some of the broadsides I don't have that I need- not sure if you have them. I need the Grieg-Duncan- not sure if Will Ye Gang, Love/Rashy Muir will be part or a related ballad. Please send any related broadsides that are not available online- TY As far as Rambling Boy- I have the Robertson chapbook 1799 with suicide and the Pitts c. 1820 (random stanzas, no suicide) All the Cruel Father versions have the suicide but they are a different ballad story: B. The Cruel Father ("A squire's daughter near Aclecloy,") her love is sent to sea- dies of a cannonball a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790. b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799. c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800 d. "Answer to Rambling Boy," four printings from US Chapbooks: 1. The Harper: to which are added, Shannon's flowery banks, The rambling boy, with The answer. Bung your eye, Henry and Laury [i.e. Laura]. London [i.e., Philadelphia : s.n., 1805?] 2. The Rambling boy, with the Answer : to which is added, Blue bells of Scotland, Good morrow to your night cap, Capt. Stephen Decatur's victory, Green upon the cape. From Early American imprints., Second series, no. 50722. [Philadelphia]: [publisher not identified], 1806; 3. The Bold mariners: The rambling boy, and the answer: Roslin Castle, to which is added the answer: Flashy Tom. [Philadelphia? : s.n.], January, 1811; 4. Ellen O'Moore. The Bold mariners. The Rambling boy. Barbara Allen. [United States : s.n.], January, 1817. e. "Sweet William," as written down about July 1, 1915, by Miss Mae Smith of Sugar Grove, Watauga county, from the singing of her stepmother, Mrs. Mary Smith, who learned it over forty years ago. submitted by Thomas Smith, Brown Collection, c.1875. f. "Rambling Boy" Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax 1916 edition. g. "Cruel Father" sung by Fanny Coffee of White Rock, Virgiia on May 8, 1918. Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection. h. "The Wrecked and Rambling Boy" from Mrs. Audrey Hellums, Tishomingo, Mississippi. Hudson C, 1926 i. "Oh Willie" from Mary Lou Bell of Staunton Virginia; 1932 j. "The Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe. k. "Black Birds." Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Allegheny County, NC, 1938 l. "Oh Willie" sung by Rod Drake of Silsbee Texas; See Owens, 1952. m. "Rude and Rambling Boy," Buna Hicks Sugar Grove, NC, 1966. Only two of the traditional versions I've found so far tell the ballad story of B. When are you back at your computer? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:26 AM Hi Richie, Back now. It will be a help to other researchers and me if you use the Roud numbers each time you post something you need info on. I also wonder if, now the separate songs have been identified, we really should have separate threads. Perhaps it's a bit late for that. I thought I had sent you info on 'The Queen of Hearts' printed by Wright of Birmingham which has the beginning of a ballad called Bonnie Blue'eyed Lass' derived from a Roxburghe Ballad and the last 6 stanzas of 18830. (See Bodl. Harding B28 (120). Others I can add to your list are 'Beam of Oak' sung by LaRena Clark, Fowke, p62. 'The Irish Boy' in FSJ31 a fragment at p28. More to follow. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:56 AM Richie, Have you got a copy of Ronnie Clark's recent edition of The Mansfield Manuscript? I am reluctant to post what is there at p4 (c1770) as it might tip you over the edge. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 30 Dec 16 - 12:54 PM Hi Steve, I will start using the Roud numbers. I'm not sure about Beam of Oak, need a definition of which ballads fall there- see post above- but I'm willing to work with the Roud numbers in place. I do not have Ronnie Clark's recent edition of The Mansfield Manuscript. Please email copy or post here. I'm still trying to organize the foundation which is why I need as many of the older broadsides you have. I also need Grieg/Duncan. There are a number of ballads which will be under the Died for Love umbrella and a number of them will be separate and listed as appendices. Right now I have: 7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William (Roud 273; Laws K12) 7B. Love Has Brought Me To Despair [Roud?] This is not or should not be part of Roud 60 since it's based on a different broadside. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Dec 16 - 02:52 PM Okay this is the Elizabeth St. Clair piece which may or may not have been redacted by her c1770 in Edinburgh. She was a member of Edinburgh high society and was a friend of Mrs. Cockburn. The ms also contains a few Child ballads some known to Child and some not. The Irish Boy O what a foolish girl was I To fall in love with an Irish Boy Who could not speak good English to me Which was the thing that did undo me. My mother chide me for my kindness She often said I was led in blindness But she may go home and frown in leisure For a sight of my love is all my pleasure. You go by my door as you do not know me You seem to me as you did not love me I loved you once and I durst not show it Do you the same and let no man know it. The rose it is red and the violet's blue The honey's sweet love and so art thou Thou art mine love and I am thine I drew thee to be my Valentine. O meeting's pleasure but parting's sorrow Have the night and away tomorrow But as you leave me so you'll find me I cannot live one hour behind thee. O if I were on yon high mountain Had gold and money for the counting I could not count it for thinking on thee Have pity on me my dear honey. Well did he know I could bake and brew Well did he know I could shape and sew Could wash his linnens and dress them fine But now he's gone and left me behind. My love's away and he's long of coming My heart is broken with thinking on him He's over seas and there he's carried Another woman I fear he's married. Home her father dear came then Asking for his daughter Jean Up stairs he ran and the door he broke He found her hanging on a rope. Two long hours after she was dead These lines were found beneath her hand This is the way I must end my life Cause my lodger won't make me his wife. Certainly a curious hotch-potch. Was she playing around with bits and pieces she knew and adding in her own ideas? I'll leave you for now to sort out where the bits and pieces come from. At least 7 of the 10 come from the general corpus of laments. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richard Mellish Date: 30 Dec 16 - 04:09 PM I do have The Mansfield Manuscript as a PDF and looked at that one starting on p.4 before I saw that Steve had quoted it. It is pretty incoherent. The change from first person to third person in this sort of song isn't so unusual, but it's disconcerting to have several verses in the girl's voice and then an account of her suicide. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 30 Dec 16 - 05:50 PM Hi, Great version, it's of the Foolish Young Girl branch of which I have 5 or 6 versions- identified by the first stanza and known also as 'Irish Boy' as I posted earlier. They all have different floating verses but many are the same. Above is a link to Willie Mathieson's version online- which I can't understand. The date is important too since that takes it back another 100 years or so- TY Steve, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Dec 16 - 06:10 PM Hi Richie, titles and first stanzas are pretty useless in identifying these sort of songs. Nothing should be assumed without looking at the full text of any version. Here's my analysis of the St. Clair piece: 1. lines 1 & 2. The Irish Boy (broadside, GPB) lines 3 & 4 probably St Clair. 2.Possibly St Clair. 3. lines 1 & 2 vaguely Brisk Young Sailor ideas. lines 3 & 4 Rambling Boy (st6 Robertson) 4. From a well-known Valentine. 5. Roud 3195 Queen of Hearts 6. Ibid. 7. St4 in The Maid's Tragedy 8. Queen of Hearts 9. Rambling Boy 10 lines 1 & 2, Rambling Boy lines 3 & 4 William McGonegal!! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 31 Dec 16 - 02:14 PM TY Steve for that analysis. Her are the notes from Traditional Music from the Shetland Isles: Jeannie learned this song from other girls at cairdings and at the gutting work on the fishing stations. It was well known in Aberdeenshire with a variety of titles such as I wish, I wish, The Student Boy, Died for Love, etc.. In the USA it appeared on Broadsheets with the title The Butcher Boy. The Foolish Young Girl- sung by Jeannie Hutchison- SA1974.13.3 Listen: http://www.sssa.llc.ed.ac.uk/whalsay/2014/12/16/foolish-young-girl-the-2/ Oh what a foolish girl was I To fall in love with a sailor boy; A sailor lad although he may be, He spak the braid Scots when he courted me. He courted me through frost an' snaw At when my apron strings did blow; But noo that they can scarcely tie He looks at me and passes by. But I wish, I wish my babe was born An' sat upon my nurse's knee; I wish that I were dead and gone An' the green, green grass growin' over me. I've wished, I've wished, I've wished in vain; I've wished to become a fair maid again. A maid again I never will be Till an orange grows on an apple tree. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 01 Jan 17 - 12:41 PM Hi, Richie & Steve, and others. I've been away from my PC for a week (bracing experience in itself, by the way). Yes, Steve, I agree that the Henderson song has a vaudeville ring, including the tune. Perhaps it is no older than the 1930s. That might explain why it was apparently especially popular ca1940. Thanks, Richie, for your heroic work on this song (and on others). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 01 Jan 17 - 09:29 PM Ty for the kind words Lighter- and the text you posted!! I've started writing and already have probably 12 pages and I haven't really started. If anyone wants to read some of it - please do: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7-died-for-love-sheffield-park-butcher-boy.aspx Steve Gardham has been a great help and my B version is filled out but the rest are in the embryonic stage- I'm sure some of it will change. Any other versions are welcome, happy new year!!! Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 03 Jan 17 - 09:27 AM Hi, here's a variant of Foolish Girl/Irish Boy with a chorus. Anyone know where the Chorus comes from? After consider I think "The Queen of Hearts" should be included as a variant. Anyone agree? The Maid's Tragedy- broadside dated c1790, from St. Bride's Printing Library, London. What a foolish girl was I, to fall in love with an Irish boy? What tho' he's false and wicked to me The though of my love will quite undo me. CHORUS: O home! O home! my heart's uneasy In parting with my dearest honey, He's gone to Ireland and long will tarry Some other girl I fear he'll marry My love knows I can wash an wring My love knows I can card and spin All for to keep his clothing fine Why did he go and leave me behind. As I was walking up Fenchurch Street, My apron spread like a sheet, My belly up to my chin, My love passed by and said nothing. I'd lov'd you better than father or mother I'd lov'd you better than sister or brother I'd lov'd you better than all my kin If you was without, love, I wou'd let you in. As I was walking up Francis-Street, My true love with a letter I chanced to meet, And in this letter these lines was written, I am often seen but soon forgotten[1]. Her father coming home late at night, Calling for his heart's delight He ran upstairs the door he broke, And found her hanging by a rope. In her bosom a note he found, For an Irish boy my heart was bound, To all young maids let his a warning be, Lest young men should prove your misery. Now dig my grave both wide and deep, With a marble stone to cover it, In the middle thereof a turtle-dove, to shew the world I dy'd for love. 1. Also, "Seldom seen and soon forgotten." Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 03 Jan 17 - 12:36 PM Whatever may be printed, "O home, O home!" should be "Ochone! Ochone!" a Gaelic expression of grief or dismay. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 03 Jan 17 - 01:00 PM Hi, Good one Lighter- there's an obscure broadside called Irish Boy's Lamentation the also has "O Home, O home" but that's the reason it's obscure. Here's one and the earliest extant broadside of "The Queen of Hearts" by Pitts (Printer) Wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse 6, Great St. Andrew street, 7 Dials, London. The broadside is identified by the 2nd stanza. It's ending (stanzas 7 and 8) is similar to, or a rewrite of B, The Cruel Father, where her lover is sent to sea and killed by a cannonball. Some of the intermediate stanzas as pointed out by Steve are found in Elizabeth St. Clair's "Irish Boy." The Queen of Hearts- broadside by Pitts (Printer) of 7 Dials, London about 1820. 1. O my poor heart my poor heart is breaking For a false young man I'm quite mistaken He is gone to Ireland long time to tarry, Some Irish girl I am afraid he will marry. 2. The Queen of Hearts and the Ace of sorrow, He is here today and gone tomorrow Young men are plenty sweethearts few But if my love leaves me what shall I do. 3. When he comes in I gaze all around him When he goes out my poor heart goes with him To meet is a pleasure to part is a sorrow, He is here today and gone tomorrow. 4. I wish I was upon yonder mountain Where gold and silver I could have for counting I could not count it for thinking upon him He is nothing to me what makes me love him 5. I love my father I love my mother, I love my sister and likewise my brother I love my friends and relations too, I will forsake them all and follow you 6. O Billy O Billy I love you well, I love you better than tongue can tell I love you dearly and dare not show it You do the same and no one shall know it 7. But when her father came to hear That he was courting his daughter dear He had him pressed and sent to sea To keep him from her sweet company 8. He had not been there years passing three On board the ship called the Victory It was his misfortune there for to fall And killed he was by cannon ball. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 03 Jan 17 - 01:44 PM Hi, The other Queen of Hearts broadside about 12 years later has two changes, one might be important- the ship is now called the "Royal Victory" (instead of "Victory') and a ship by that name was operating in the late 1600s. If anyone know what ship that could be please post as it might help date the original. "The Queen of Hearts" Wright, Printer, 113, Moor-Street, Birmingham c. 1833 1. Oh my poor heart-- my heart is breaking For a false young man or I am mistaken He is gone to Ireland long time to tary, Some Irish girl I'm afraid he will marry. 2. The Queen of Hearts and the ace of sorrow, He is here today and gone to-morrow, Young men are plenty sweethearts few But if my love leaves me what shall I do. 3. When he comes in, I gaze all around him, When he goes out my poor heart goes with him, To meet is a pleasure, to part is a sorrow, He is here to-day and gone to-morow. 4. I wish I was on yonder mountain Where gold & silver I could have for coun[t]ing I could not count it for thinking on him He is not kind to me, what makes me love him? 5. I love my father I love my mother, I love my sister and likewise my brother I love my friends and relations too, I will forsake them all and follow you 6. O Billy O Billy I love thee well, I love you better than tongue can tell I love thee dearly, and dare not show it You do the same, and no one shall know it 7. But when her father came to hear, That he was a courting his daughter dear, He had him press'd and sent to sea, To keep him from her sweet company. 8. He had not been there passing years three, On board the ship called the Royal victory It was his misfortune there for to fall And killed he was by a cannon ball. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 03 Jan 17 - 03:29 PM Richie, On the slip The Maid's Tragedy/The Irish Boy's Lamentation(which latter is obviously meant to be the continuation or answer) the chorus is 'O hone! O hone!' in both. Also you have omitted a stanza (6) in the Wright printing of QoH. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 03 Jan 17 - 04:13 PM Hi Steve, O hone! O hone! you're right!!! TYVM! Corrected: "The Queen of Hearts" Wright, Printer, 113, Moor-Street, Birmingham c. 1833 1. Oh my poor heart-- my heart is breaking For a false young man or I am mistaken He is gone to Ireland long time to tary, Some Irish girl I'm afraid he will marry. 2. The Queen of Hearts and the ace of sorrow, He is here today and gone to-morrow, Young men are plenty sweethearts few But if my love leaves me what shall I do. 3. When he comes in, I gaze all around him, When he goes out my poor heart goes with him, To meet is a pleasure, to part is a sorrow, He is here to-day and gone to-morow. 4. I wish I was on yonder mountain Where gold & silver I could have for coun[t]ing I could not count it for thinking on him He is not kind to me, what makes me love him? 5. I love my father and likewise my mother, I love my sister and also my brother I love my friends and relations too, I will forsake them all, and follow you. 6. My father will give me both houses and land If I'll consent to be at his command, At his command I never will be, I will forsake them all, and go with thee. 7. O Billy O Billy I love thee well, I love you better than tongue can tell, I love thee dearly, and dare not show it, You do the same, and no one shall know it. 8. But when her father came to hear, That he was a courting his daughter dear, He had him press'd and sent to sea, To keep him from her sweet company. 9. He had not been there passing years three, On board the ship called the Royal victory It was his misfortune there for to fall And killed he was by a cannon ball. Baring Gould's version is attributed to two different sources- not exactly sure which one is right; 1) In his notebook it's "sung by a nanny on a train journey from Tavistock to Yelverton" dated 1897. 2) It was printed in 1905 in the new and revised (i.e. 3rd) edition of Songs of the West (now out of print). It is reprinted here by courtesy of Messrs. Curwen and Sons Ltd. According to a note it was sung by a workman engaged on the Burrow-Tor reservoir at Sheepstor, the water supply for Plymouth, 1894. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 03 Jan 17 - 04:30 PM Richie, It's NAVVY, i.e., a workman on a railway or reservoir in this case. 1894 is possibly an error. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 03 Jan 17 - 05:09 PM Ty Steve, Couldn't read his handwriting:) If it's an error than how do you explain his notes in the 1905 published version: Notes: Sung by a workman on the Borrow-Tor reservoir, the water supply for Plymouth, 1894. It has been printed on Broadside by Batchelar, B.M. in vol. vi p110. This version begins-- 'O my poor heart, my poor heart is breaking, For a false young man, or I am mistaking: He is gone to Ireland, for a long time to tarry, Some Irish girl I am afraid he will marry. The ballad has a flavour of of the period of Charles II. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 03 Jan 17 - 05:18 PM OK, So it's the same person, the date was given as 1897 in a different edition reprinting the song but that date was wrong. So the date is 1894. Songs of the West, by S. Baring Gould, H Fleetwood Sheppard, and F.W. Bussell, new and revised edition (Methuen, n.d. [1905], pp. 232-233; with music). THE QUEEN OF HEARTS 1. To the Queen of Hearts he's the Ace of sorrow, He's here to-day, he's gone to-morrow; Young men are plenty but sweet-hearts few, If my love leave [sic] me, what shall I do? 2. When my love comes in I gaze not around, When my love goes out, I fall in a swound; To meet is pleasure, to part is sorrow, He is here to-day, he is gone to-morrow. 3. Had I the store in yonder mountain, Where gold and silver is had for counting, I could not count, for the thought of thee, My eyes so full that I could not see. 4. I love my father, I love my mother, I love my sister, I love my brother; I love my friends, my relations too, But I'll leave them all for the love of you. 5. My father left me both house and land, And servants many at my command; At my commandment they ne'er shall be, I'll forsake them all for to follow thee. 6. An Ace of sorrow to the Queen of Hearts, O how my bosom bleeds and smarts; Young men are plenty, but sweet-hearts few, If my love leave me what shall I do? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 03 Jan 17 - 05:19 PM I find his handwriting hard to read at the best of times. It could equally be 1894 in the manuscript. It's also possible he couldn't read his own handwriting. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 03 Jan 17 - 11:09 PM Hi, Maybe this is common knowledge: In the last stanza of Wright broadside "Queen of Hearts" line 2 appears these words, "On board the ship called the Royal victory." "Royal victory" is likely a corruption since the ship in the other broadsides is referred to as the "Victory" which is likely the HMS Victory, a 104-gun first-rate ship of the line of the Royal Navy, ordered in 1758, laid down in 1759 and launched in 1765. She is best known as Lord Nelson's flagship at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805. I did find evidence of a ship called "Royal Victory" in 1692 however it seems that HMS Victory is the ship. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richard Mellish Date: 04 Jan 17 - 09:23 AM Pedant mode on. Richie quoted "If my love leave [sic] me, what shall I do?", presumably inserting the "sic" because it's "leave" rather than "leaves". There is nothing wrong with "leave" in that context, but it is subjunctive, a verb mood which is slowly dying out in English. We can speculate about which the navvy from whom B-G collected that version actually sang. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 04 Jan 17 - 10:07 PM Hi, Interesting point- I copied it (didn't insert sic) and wondered about that too. I also noticed that Baring Gould's punctuation "to-day" and "to-morrow" appear exactly the same in broadside versions and if I remember correctly Baring Gould himself doesn't not punctuate these words this way. We know he edited and rewrote and we know he had a print copy so. . . I've started putting UK versions on my site, I want to thank Steve for sending me many of the copies I have put on so far. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 05 Jan 17 - 09:20 AM Hyphenation of "to-day" and "to-morrow" (and "to-night")used to be normal practice as well. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 05 Jan 17 - 05:30 PM Hi, Does anyone have any details (date notes location etc) about this version collected by MacColl: B. [untitled] Caroline Hughes 1 O for that dear girl, she roamed those meadows, She were picking these flowers by one, two or three; She picked, she plucked until she gained Until she gathered her apron full. 2 O, when I were single, I wear my apron strings long; My love passed me by and say nothing; But now my belly it's up to my chin, My love he pass by and frowns on me. 3 A grief, a grief, I'll tell you for why: Because that girl she's got more gold than me; Well, gold shall glitter, her beauty will fade, That's why it puts back a poor girl like me. 4 On yonders hill, there stands an alehouse Where my true love goes and sets himself down, He takes another strange girl on his knee And kisses her and frowns on me. 5 A grief, a grief, I'll tell you for why: Because that girl she's got more gold than me; Well, gold shall glitter, her beauty will fade, That's why she'll become a poor girl like me. 6 On yonders hill there's blind beetles crawl, As blind as blind could be I wish to God that I'd been one of those Before I gained my love's company. I'm interested in source of "Three worms" and in this "blind beetles crawl" Anyone? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 Jan 17 - 06:09 PM It seems to first appear as a stanza in the common broadside 'Brisk Young Sailor' text which is where all of the other stanzas in Caroline's text can be found. It may have been inspired by the 9th stanza in The Lady's Lamentation. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 05 Jan 17 - 07:31 PM Hi, TY Steve, MacColl called it the "blind worm" motive, if that helps. 9th stanza in The Lady's Lamentation; 9. There is a flower as I've heard say, I wish I could that flower find, It would ease my heart, And cure my mind. which is taken from Oxfordshire Tragedy where the flower is a heart-ease if I remember correctly. In Johnson's 1611 version there's and herb called Dead-Man's Thumb but no worms!!! Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 05 Jan 17 - 07:43 PM Hi, I should have posted the three worms ;) There was three worms on yonder hill, They neither could not hear nor see; I wish I'd been but one of them When first I gained my liberty. [from Dorset 1905] Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 05 Jan 17 - 08:00 PM I thought it was "blind bird"= "three worms" but MacColl's comment floored me- as if it was a common motive. This is where I thought it came from- a standard stanza: There is a bird on yonder tree, They say it's blind and cannot see; I wish it had been the same with me Before I joined his company. MacColl gave an analysis which make some sense, even tho I don't agree- it's basically: ------ 55. DIED FOR LOVE. There is a large group of love-lamentations which have enough verses in common to be called 'a family.' They are all based upon a man's infidelity to his avowed lover. 1. Deep in Love- "Must I go Bound" 2. Butcher Boy 3. Love has brought me to Despair-- "blind worm" motive 4. Waly waly 5. Tavern in the town "Let him go, let him tarry" The alehouse verse is vital to this type. 6. Careless Love 7. Died for love -------- He doesn't even mention Sheffield Park or Brisk Young Sailor. In my opinion, altho I'm just learning these ballads/song, only Tavern (which is a 1891 composition and not a folk song) and Butcher Boy are closely related. What do you think? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 05 Jan 17 - 08:43 PM Hi, I just looked at "Three Worms." It's like the modern version (Pitts) of Sheffield Park (the older versions don't have the stanzas from Qxfordshire Tragedy) on steroids!!! Of course it's mixed with Brisk Young Sailor too. In stanza 10 she gets revenge- too funny!!! 10 Oh, so now she is dead and her corpse is cold I met her false lover, and him I told: "Come and walk after your heart's delight; She will walk with you both day and night! Happy haunting! Richie THERE WAS THREE WORMS ON YONDER HILL. [A BRISK YOUNG SAILOR.] SUNG BY MR. BARTLETT, Noted by the late H. E. D. Hammond. AT WIMBORNE, DORSET, IN 1905. 1. There was three worms on yonder hill, They neither could not hear nor see; I wish I'd been but one of them When first I gained my liberty. [Repeat last two lines.] 2 Then a brisk young lad came a-courting me, He stole away my liberty; He stole it away with a free goodwill, He've a-got it now, and he'll keep it still. 3 Oh, for once I wore my apron-strings low My love followed me through frost and snow, But now they're almost up to my chin My love pass by and say nothing. 4 Now there is an ale-house in this town, Where my false love go and sit himself down And takes strange girls all on his knee- And don't you think that's a grief to me ? [Or Because they have more gold than me.] 5 So gold will waste and beauty pass And she will come like me at last. That mortal man when he served me so When I was down where the daisies grow. 6 Now there is a flower, I heard them say, Would ease my heart both night and day. I wish to God that flower I could find That would ease my heart and my troubling mind. 7 Then out in the mead the poor girl run To call those flowers fast as they sprung; 'Twas some she picked, some she pulled, Till at length she gained her apron full. 8 On those sweet flowers she made her bed, A stony pillow for her head; Then down she lay and never spoke, And now her tender heart is broke. 9 Now she is dead and her corpse is cold I met her false-love, and him I told "A bad misfortune I come to tell." "I'm glad," said he, "she have done so well." 10 Oh, so now she is dead and her corpse is cold I met her false lover, and him I told: "Come and walk after your heart's delight; She will walk with you both day and night! 11 So dig her a grave long, wide and deep, And strow it over with flowers sweet; Lay on her breast a turtle-dove, That folks may see that she died for love. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 06 Jan 17 - 11:22 AM Richie, When MacColl wrote those notes he probably hadn't a decent grasp of the broadside traditon. When he uses the title 'Tavern in the Town' I would guess he's actually referring to 'Brisk Young Sailor' where the verse occurs. This is quite reasonable for someone mostly acquainted with oral versions. The 1880s/1891 student song is properly titled 'There is a tavern in the Town' from the first line. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 09 Jan 17 - 09:05 PM Hi, Need some help with two versions from Vaughan Williams. Both are titled "There Is An Alehouse" one is from 1912 sung by an unknown gypsy from Herefordshire and the other is sung by Mrs. Dann in 1907. Both have music although hard to read ;) I do have four versions with music from Vaughan Williams, here's one: A Brisk Young Farmer- sung by Thomas Bowes of Westerdale, Yorkshire on 23 July, 1904. Usual stanzas from "Bold Young Farmer" both collected by Vaughan Williams. A brisk young farmer courted me, He stole away my liberty, He stole my heart with my free good will, I must confess I love him still. There is an inn, in this same town, Where my love goes and sits him down, And takes another girl on his knee, He tells her what he doesn't tell me. Its grief to me, I'll tell you for why, Because she has more gold than I, But in needy time her gold shall fly, And she shall be as poor as I. When first I wore my apron low, My love followed me thro' frost and snow, But now my apron's up to my chin, My love passes by and he says nothing. There is a bird on yonder tree, They say it's blind and cannot see; I wish it had been the same with me, Before I joined his company. Go dig my grave both long, wide and deep, Place a marble stone at my head and feet, And in the middle a turtle dove, To show the wide world I died for love. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 09 Jan 17 - 09:24 PM Hi, I also need versions of "Over Yonder's Hill" as sung by Freda Black or Amy Birch. I do have the version from Amy's daughter but Jean learned it from another source. Baring-Gould studied this ballad and all his versions begin "Brisk Young Miner." So far all of the UK versions I've seen do not have this title. Any thoughts as to how this could be. I've got three versions from his leading informants David Parsons, Same Fone, and John Woodrich. As author of "Book of Werewolves" Baring-Gould could have added more spice but his re-write is a bit tame (no fangs); here's his A version: A. The Brisk Young Miner- sung by John Woodrich probably Sept., 1896 or early as 1889. Woodrich was a blacksmith from Wollacot Moor, Thrushleton [sic], Devon. 1. A brisk young miner courted me He stole away my liberty, My liberty with free good will. For all his faults I love him still. 2. There is a tavern in our town, Where my false lover will sit him down, Another maiden is on his knee He never, never, now thinks on me. 3. A grief to me, I'll tell you why, She has no more of show than I. The show will waste, & beauty blast, And poor she'll be as me at last 4. Once I could wear my apron low He followed me through frost & snow. But now 'tis risen to touch my chin, My love passed by, but said nothing. 5. I wish, I wish, my babe were born Sat smiling on its daddy's arm, And I myself - cut short my span, I would be free from that young man. 6. O dig my grave both wide & deep, Put tombstones at my head & feet And carve there on a turtledove, To signify that I died of love. In stanza two he "Americanized it" a bit showing his knowledge of published versions. Aside from that only 5 and 6 should touches of tampering, the most blatant being 5: And I myself - cut short my span, I would be free from that young man. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 10 Jan 17 - 10:44 AM Sailor/farmer adapted to 'Miner' in the West Country would be quite natural. Cornwall was noted for its tin mines and it only takes one influential version. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 10 Jan 17 - 08:23 PM Ty Steve, Here's a version Steve sent me from The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection- Volume 8- page 501 by Patrick N. Shuldham-Shaw, Emily B. Lyle, published 2002, version C. This is a variant of Brisk Young Sailor with the Foolish Young Girl or, Irish Boy stanza. Georgina (b. about 1868, d. 1958) was the daughter of John Reid (c. 1844 Elgin) and Elizabeth Murray (c. 1838 Aberdour) who taught Georgina her songs. The family (with seven children) were living at Cottage Ford, Federate, New Deer, Aberdeen in 1881. so I've dated this c. 1882. She later married Alexander Ironside b. 1864 did he not belong to any of the New Deer Ironsides (at least not for a couple of generations back) who was the son of Alexander Ironside and Mary Still. These Ironsides were from Fyvie. The Sailor Boy- sung by Miss Georgina Reid (b. 1868) of Collyford, New Deer. Her married name was Mrs. Alexander Ironside and she lived at Woodside, Carmousie, Turiff. Georgina learned her songs from her parents. 1. Oh what a foolish young girl was I, To lay my love on a sailor boy A sailor boy although that he be, He spoke brood Scotch when he courted me. 2. My love he wears a smiling face And on his jacket he wears gold lace he thinks himself of a higher degree but oh, if he knew it, it's a grief to me 3. It's a grief to me and I'll tell you why, Because she has more gold than I, But her gold will fade and her silver decay, She'll be left a poor girl as well as I. 4. My love he goes to yonder town, In yonder inn it's him you'll see, He takes another girl on his knee, And tells he what he's told to me. 5. I wish, I wish, my babe were born And placed on some kind nurse's knee. And I myself in the old churchyard With the green grass growing over me. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:56 PM Hi, What has seemed obvious to me all along--I thought I'd get some feed back on: liberty= virginity A sailor bold he courted me, He stole away my liberty, He stole it with a free good will, He's got it now, and he'll keep it still. I guess I'm confused because I've seen no one point this out- or, did I miss something? Opinions please. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:41 AM I think that "liberty" is used in a general sense, as defined by Oxford, of "The condition of being able to act or function without hindrance or restraint; faculty or power to do as one likes." "Freedom" would be the more likely word today. However...versions about babies and suicides surely *imply* that the loss of freedom comes from both her loss of virginity and her love for her seducer. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:41 AM I think that "liberty" is used in a general sense, as defined by Oxford, of "The condition of being able to act or function without hindrance or restraint; faculty or power to do as one likes." "Freedom" would be the more likely word today. However...versions about babies and suicides surely *imply* that her loss of freedom comes from both her loss of virginity and her love for her seducer. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:34 PM Thanks Lighter, Here's another example: A farmer's son he courted me, Until he had gained his liberty, He gain'd it of me with a free good will, But [despite] all his faults I loved him still. sung by William Bailey Cannington Somerset 1906 Any other opinions? Comments? TY Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Jan 17 - 02:55 PM All of the broadsides including the 2 18th century ones have the second line. 'and stole away my liberty'. Is there any need for further comment? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 13 Jan 17 - 03:51 PM Thanks Steve, You'd have thunk that Broadwood or Gilchrist in their many pages of commentary on the ballad in the JFSS or some later commentator would have pointed out all the 'hidden meaning' in the text. The moral: Don't lose your liberty or you might get pregnant!! or in the US: Give me liberty or give me death Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:10 PM Er.....what hidden meaning? Some of the 17thc pieces might have had some but by the end of the 18th everything left was pretty straightforward and simple. 'Deep in Love' has some symbolism but we haven't got there yet. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:12 PM The question may only apply to the one text, but it seems likely that the line meant (to the singer)that he gained his "freedom" to do (with her) as he liked. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:33 PM Hi, OK. My mind's in the gutter. The English Dialect Society in their Publications, Volume 41 1896, gave this report: "When apples grow on orange trees." A variant of this common phrase concludes an old song which I do not remember to have seen in any printed collection. Here and there it is not unlike—though elsewhere manifestly inferior to— 'Waly, Waly, love be bonny,' in Percy's Reliques, and the Orpheus Caledonius. i. There is a house in yonder town, Where my love goes and sits him down; He takes a strange girl on his knee, O don't you think that's grief to me? ii. 0 grief, O grief, I'll tell you why, Because she's got more gold than I. But her gold will waste, and her beauty blast; Poor girl, she'll come like me at last. iii. For when my apron-strings were low, He follow'd me thro' frost and snow; But now they are up to my chin, He passes by and says nothing (sic)[1]. iv. 'I wish, I wish, but 'tis all in vain, I wish I was a maid again; A maid again I ne'er shall be, Till an apple grows on an orange tree.' My questions are where did "Till an apple grows on an orange tree" originate (I know there are various other analogies with different fruit- need to have the "A maid again" line) and when was it attached to this ballad? (I know at this point she lost her liberty:) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 14 Jan 17 - 10:42 AM > OK. My mind's in the gutter. But it shows you're paying attention. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 14 Jan 17 - 11:41 AM At the moment, the earliest occurrence of the line I can find is in one of Kidson's Yorkshire versions, published in 1891. The Bodleian Ballad cite appears to have no broadside printing of the "I Wish, I Wish" song that I can see. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Jan 17 - 01:27 PM Hi Richie I have spent the last 3 days pondering this exact same question. The stanza does not appear in any of the many extant printed versions, but it occurs in roughly half of the many oral versions in the British Isles, with perhaps something of a northern bias. The earliest version I can find at the moment was collected by Kidson in the 1880s in North Yorkshire. I would say the likelihood is that there was an influential broadside version that contained this verse which hasn't turned up yet. It is part of the collection of commonplaces we collectively refer to as 'impossibilities'. These come in 2 forms, both quite ancient; one being the somewhat humorous nonsense type such as 'Martin said to his man/Who's the fool now?' where the emphasis is on entertainment; and the other type is those that occur in dialogue laments. Often these come in the form of the maid asking 'When shall we be married?' and this is met with a whole catalogue of things like 'when fishes fly and the seas run dry' as responses. One type of fruit growing on another tree is quite common. I will investigate further by looking at other laments. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Jan 17 - 01:56 PM Richie, Just glancing through American versions of Butcher Boy and although as you'd expect it rarely occurs there, it has attached itself to 3 versions I have. It occurs in a Missouri version from 1941 in Emrich's Folklore on the American Land, p526, and in a Massachusettes version in Thompson, p387, and in Gardner and Chickering, p117 from Michigan. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Jan 17 - 02:21 PM Richie, In Christie's TBA there is a version of the scarce ballad 'The Chain of Love/As through the Groves' which has 2 stanzas from Rambling Boy. I wish I were a little bird' and 'I wish i were a little fly'. These are very likely placed there by Christie as he was a noted mix and matcher. Oh 100 |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:19 PM Has anyone mentioned that the lines about aprons worn low appear later in the American "Careless Love"? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:37 PM The stanza 'I love my mamma and papa too' also comes from the English variants. It is on the Pitts Rambling Boy broadside. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:39 PM Fascinating. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 14 Jan 17 - 03:44 PM Richie, You keep asking about the Rashie Moor variants. This forms part of an equally complex family of laments with as many 17thc antecedents as the above family but there is very little overlap between the 2 families. The family includes such titles as: Down in the Meadows Waly Waly Deep in Love Fair and Tender Ladies Love is Pleasing Arthur's Seat The Rashie Muir The Water is Wide Peggy Gordon I'm often drunk and seldom sober. Obviously the bulk of these is Scottish. I could send you some samples but I think you've enough on your plate with the current family of laments. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 14 Jan 17 - 07:16 PM Hi, Thanks for the responses Lighter and Steve. Rashie Moor variants are part of the Waly/Waly" songs and come from different broadsides including: "A New Love Song" "Maid's Complaint" "Picking Lilies" Here one of about a dozen I've looked at. Occassionally a stanza will float over- but not usually. "The Unfortunate Swain" From: The Merry Songster. Being a collection of songs, Printed and sold in Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, London, [1770?], ESTC T39283, available at ECCO. Down in a Meadow both fair and gay, Plucking a Flowers the other day, Plucking a Flower both red and blue, I little thought what Love could do. Where Love's planted there it grow, It buds and blows much like any Rose; And has so sweet and pleasant smell, No Flower on Earth can it excell. Must I be bound and she be free? Must I love one that loves not me? Why should I act such a childish Part To love a Girl that will break my Heart. There's thousand thousands in room, My true love carries the highest Bloom, Sure she is some chosen one, I will have her, or I'll have none. I spy'd a Ship sailing on the Deep, She sail'd as deep as she could swim; But not so deep as in Love I am, I care not whether I sink or swim. I set my Back against an oak, I thought it had been a Tree; But first it bent and then it broke, So did my false Love to me. I put my Hand into a Bush, Thinking the sweetest Rose to find, l prick'd my Finger to the Bone, And left the sweetest Rose behind. If Roses are such prickly Flowers, They should be gather'd while they're green, And he that loves an unkind Lover, I'm sure he strives against the stream. When my love is dead and at her rest, I'll think of her whom I love best I'll wrap her up in Linnen strong, And think on her when she's dead and gone. I do have a few versions of Rashie Moor titled "Will ye Gang Love" that have more "Died in love" stanzas but they appear to be modern. I believe the Grieg versions with "Till an apple grows on an orange tree" date mid-1800s at least. Having an "orange tree" in an ancient Scottish ballad is a bit bizarre. That's why I live in Florida:) in the 80s and sunny Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 14 Jan 17 - 07:59 PM Hi, Steve the version posted by Lighter of Hamish Henderson's "Ballads of World War II" is a version of Maiden's Prayer - a local Yorkshire ballad. Now all you maidens sweet and kind, Just bear in mind a soldier's love is hard to find. So when you've found one good and true, Don't change the old love for a new. I've traced it to 1933 as sung by US Airmen. THE MAIDEN'S PRAYER (Died for Love) Tune from Harold Sykes of Hessle. Collected in 1974 from Mrs. Doreen Cross of Hessle. East Riding of Yorkshire, England 1. A maiden young and fair was she, Not born of high society, A sailor young and bold was he, The cause of all her misery. 2. A man came home from work one night, And found his house without a light; He went upstairs to go to bed, When a sudden thought came into his head. 3. He went into his daughter's room, And found her hanging from a beam; He took a knife and cut her down, And on her breast this note he found, 4. My love was for a sailor boy, Who sailed across the deep blue sea, I often wrote and thought of him, But he never wrote or thought of me. 5. Oh, Lord, I wish my babe was born, Then all my troubles would be gone, For I could never bear the shame, To have a babe without a name. 6. So dig my grave and dig it deep, And place white lilies at my feet, And at my head please lay a dove, To signify I died for love. 7. So all ye maidens bear in mind, A sailor's love is hard to find, But if you find one that is true, Don't change an old love for the new. Anyone have more info? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 14 Jan 17 - 08:08 PM Hi, Lighter-- Aunt Molly Jackson of Kentucky sang the words to "Butcher's Boy" with the melody of Careless Love. Careless love as a folk song was radically changed by WC Handy and other in the late 1800s and became a jazz standard. These are the Appalachian lyrics my female singer sang in the early 1990s: Careless Love Love, oh love, my careless love, Love, oh love, my careless love. Love, oh love, oh careless love, Oh look what careless love has done. Once I wore my apron low, Once I wore my apron low. Once I wore my apron low, I could not keep you from my door. Now my apron strings won't pin, Now my apron strings won't pin. Now my apron strings won't pin, You pass my door and won't come in. I love my mama and papa, too, I love my mama and papa, too. I love my mama and papa, too, I'd leave them just to go with you. When I die, don't bury me deep; When I die, don't bury me deep, When I die, don't bury me deep, Place a marble rock at my head and feet. Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove, Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove, Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove, For to show to the world I died for love. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Jan 17 - 09:36 AM Hi Richie, Where is that ref to American airmen 1933? Is there a full version? It could prove to be quite significant in the transmission of the song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 15 Jan 17 - 01:19 PM Hi, Lighter, no details are given: http://aircrewremembered.com/maiden-young-and-fair-author-unknown.html Just the 1933 date author unknown Sorry Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 15 Jan 17 - 03:06 PM This version seems to have been taken from Airman's Song Book, p126 by C Ward Jackson and Leighton Lucas. The title is the same and all of the rest apart from the last stanza which has a few verbal differences. The note at the top says, 'Sung by 38 and other squadrons in India and elsewhere in the early 30s to the tune of 'In Jersey City'. All of this backs up my theory that the song was brought over from America by troops in WWI and is based on Butcher Boy. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 16 Jan 17 - 12:13 PM Hi, Here's one of two from Australia, notice that he took her liberty: Informant: HARRY CAVANAGH North Ryde NSW (near Sydney) Australia July 2000. Warren Fahey: Mr Cavanagh contacted me after I had made an appeal in the Australian Maritime Museum magazine 'Ahoy!' and sent me this song which he had been singing ever since he was a young lad in the Navy. He said he "came home from the club, after reading my article 'Where are all the maritime Songs?' and sat down at the kitchen table until he could recall all the words. The Maiden's Prayer– maritime version She was a maiden young and fair And came from high society He was a mallot brass and bold Who took this girls virginity Her father came home late one night And found the house without a light He went upstairs to his daughter's room And found her hanging from a beam He took his knife and cut her down And on her breast this note he found My love was for a sailor boy Who sailed across the big blue sea I often wrote and thought of him He never wrote or thought of me Oh Dad I cannot stand the pain To bear this child without a name So dig my grave and dig it deep And place white lilies at my feet They dug her grave and dug it deep And placed white lilies at her feet And on her breast they placed a dove To show that she had died for love Now all you maidens bear in mind A sailor's love is hard to find But when you find one good and true Don't change the old one for the new. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 16 Jan 17 - 06:05 PM Richie & Steve, I've emailed the site's staff for further details. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 16 Jan 17 - 09:25 PM Hi, Kennedy calls this an army song generally known as "Died for Love" which is a version of "In Jersey City" a song he says in turn is probably based on "Sheffield Park." He doesn't call "In Jersey City" the normal name "Butcher Boy." Kennedy adds that there are stanzas from "Tavern in the Town." Please excuse my notoriously bad typing. "Died for Love." No informant named. Peter Kennedy, Folksongs of Britain and Ireland p. 381. (London: Cassell, New York: Schirmer, 1975). Text supplied S. Gardham. Roud 18828 1. A soldier young and fair was she, Who courted in society, This soldier was so bold and gay, He led a little girl astray. 2. O when her apron-strings were low, He courted her in rain and snow; But when those string refused to meet, He passed her by upon the street. 3. Her father came back late one night, And found the house without a light; He went upstairs to go to bed, When a sudden thought entered his head. 4. He rushed into his daughter's room, And found her hanging from a beam; He took a knife and cut her down, And on her breast these words he found. 5. I wish my baby had been born, Before my troubles had begun, So dig my grave and dig it deep, And put white lilies at my feet. 6. They dug her grave and dig it deep, They put white lilies at her feet. And on her breast they laid a dove, To signify she died of love. 7. Now all you soldiers bear in mind, A true girl's love is hard to find, But if you find one that is true, Don't change an old love for the new. Sheffield Park was originally independent and in 1820 stanzas of "Constant Lady" AKA "Near Woodstock" were added to the Pitts broadside. The same stanzas have been found added to versions of "Died for Love" but they may have come from Pitts' "Sheffield park" or from the 1686 "Constant Lady" broadside. Either way the stanzas don't appear this army version I call, "Maiden's Prayer' (not the Bob Wills song- same title). Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 17 Jan 17 - 08:57 AM Webmaster Kelvin Youngs has promptly and helpfully replied to my query with the disappointing news that "A Maiden Young and Fair" was "sent anon." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Jan 17 - 02:34 PM I can't explain the slight verbal differences in the last verse but the version on the website is verbatim the version in Airman's Song Book. The only explanation I can think of is someone lifted it from the book and decided to alter something in case anyone pleaded breach of copyright. The Airman's Song Book was published in 1967. You can draw your own conclusions from that. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 17 Jan 17 - 04:03 PM Ugh. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 17 Jan 17 - 07:00 PM Hi, From what I tell -- there are quite a few versions of 'A Maiden's Prayer' Roud 18828 and it continues to be sung in a similar form today. Most are missing the first stanza and as Steve said tend to be fragmentary. Gwilym Davies sent me two from the 70s and 80s. Another early version is "The Soldier's Love" sung by Fred Cottenham of Kent whose father learned from a World War I serviceman so that would take it back to c. 1920. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 19 Jan 17 - 04:28 PM Hi, This is a nice version of Foolish Young Girl which is fairly old- dating back to the early 1900s. It was corrected by an MS sent by Cathlin Macaulay at School of Scottish Studies. I've changed only two words of the MS much of it was the same. [MS has Ugie's Bank (4th stanza, I had Logie's Bank- and at the end MS has o' and I have altho') Willie Mathieson was born in 1879 in Ellon, Aberdeenshire, and worked as a farmservant on various farms in Banffshire. An amateur folksong collector in his own right, he amassed an enormous corpus of songs over his lifetime, which is now deposited in manuscript form in the School of Scottish Studies. He died in 1958. Summary - In this song of lost love the young girl mourns for Jamie and bewails her foolishness in falling in love with an Irish boy, though he spoke broad Scots when he courted her. He promised love, fidelity and a home, but now he is in a tavern courting someone else who has more money, whom he will leave when money and beauty runs out. She says that she will die for love and asks for a turtle dove to be placed on her grave. The Foolish Young Girl- sung by Willie Mathieson of Ellon, Aberdeenshire. Recorded by Hamish Henderson in 1952. This variant includes stanzas from three different songs. Text proofed with MS provided by Cathlin Macaulay and Caroline Milligan of the School of Scottish Studies. 1. I love you Jamie, I love you well, I love you better than tongue can tell, I love you better than you love me, My darlin' Jamie, ye're dear to me. 2. What a foolish young girl was I, I, I, To fall in love with an Irish boy An Irish boy tho' gin he be He spake braw[1] Scotch when he courted me. 3. How oft my Jamie when in your arms[2] You said I filled your heart with charms, And when you gained my youthful heart You said death only would us part. 4. How oft on Logie's banks we've met In Strichen Toon we've wandered late; How oft my Jamie I've heard you tell It's in this house that we will dwell. 5. There is a tavern in this toon[3], My lover gangs there and sets him doon, He take this strange girlie on his knee Because she's got more gold than me. [But] her gold will waste and her beauty fade, And very soon she'll be left like me. 6. The meeting's a pleasure but parting's a grief[4], An inconstant lover is worse than a thief. A thief he will rob you take all that you have, An inconstant young man can you lay you in your grave. 7. You'll dig my grave baith long and wide, . . . And in the middle a turtle dove, That you may know I died for love[5]. 8. What a foolish [young] girl am I, I, I, To fall in love with an Irish boy An Irish boy tho' gin he be, He spake braw Scotch when he courted me. 1. braid 2. stanzas 3 and 4 transcribed from MS 3. town/down 4. from Inconstant Lover 5. this stanza is incomplete and singer's melody and text are confused-- the last line was given awkwardly. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 19 Jan 17 - 05:49 PM Hi, I've put some of the UK versions. If you have a version not listed here please let me know or put it on this thread. To look at individual versions: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/blind-beetles--caroline-hughes-dors-1963-rec.aspx I want to thank everyone who's posted versions, they are included on my site, Here's the list so far: British & Other Versions 7. Died For Love Wild Rover (Rambling Boy)- Musical Com (Lon) 1765 The Irish Boy- Elizabeth St. Clair (Edin) c. 1770 A New Love Song- (Dub) Corcoran broadside c1774 Lady's Lamentation- broadside (Manch) c.1775 The Effects of Love- (Lon) broadside BL, c.1780 The Distress'd Maid- (Lon) Madden broadside c.1785 Cruel Father or Deceived Maid- (Lon) Madden c.1790 Rambling Boy- (Limer) chapbook Groggin, 1790 Rambling Boy- (Glas) chapbook, 1790 The Maid's Tragedy- (Lon) St. Bride's PL c.1790 Rambling Boy- (Glas) Robertson chapbook, 1799 Answer to Rambling Boy- (Glas) chapbook, 1799 Squire's Daughter- (Manch) Shelmerdine c.1800 The Rambling Boy- (Lon) Pitts broadside c. 1806 Faithful Shepherd- John Clare (Northamp) c.1818 Queen of Hearts- (Lon) Pitts broadside c.1820 Rambling Boy- (Manch) broadside, c.1830 Queen of Hearts- (Birm) Wright broadside c.1833 Brisk Young Sailor- (Birm) W. Pratt; c.1850 The Darling Rose- (Glas) Poet's Box broadside 1851 Brisk Young Sailor- (Manch) Bebbington c.1855 The Irish Boy- (Glas) Poet's Box broadside, 1872 Sweet William- Mrs. Hughes (Here) 1875 Leather Brisk Young Sailor- S. Lovell (Wales) Groome 1881 Sailor Boy- Georgina Reid (Aber) c.1882 Duncan C There is an Alehouse- W.H Lunt (Liv) 1882 Kidson There's An Alehouse- H. Collins (Cam) 1886 Bull There is An Alehouse- H. Collins (Cam) 1886 Bull-2 Brisk Young Miner- J. Parsons (Lew Down) 1888 B-G Love Is Hot- J. Parsons (Dev) 1888 Baring-Gould B True Love Once Courted Me- Halliday (York) 1891 There Is An Alehouse- Holgate (Leeds) 1891 Kidson Rich Young Farmer- Lolley (Riding) 1891 Kidson C There Is A Bird- Lolley (E. Riding) 1891 Kidson D Brisk Young Miner- S. Fone (Dev) 1893 Baring-Gould Queen of Hearts- navvy worker (Dev) B.-Gould 1894 Brisk Young Miner- Woodrich (Dev) 1896 Bar-Gould There is a House- (UK)1896 English Dialect Society Down in the Meadows- White (Som) 1903 Sharp Brisk Young Sailor- Emma Overd (Som) 1904 Sharp Brisk Young Sailor- W. Spearman (Som) 1904 Sharp Brisk Young Farmer- Bowes (York) 1904 V. Williams Bold Young Farmer- Denny (Essex) 1904 V. Williams In Jessie's City- from maid (Essex) 1905 Williams In Yorkshire Park- R. Barratt (Dor) 1905 Hammond Bold Young Sailor- Anderson (Lon) 1905 V. Williams There Was Three Worms- Bartlett (Dorset) 1905 I Wish I Wish- Lucy White (Som) 1905 Sharp MS Apron Strings- John Collinson (West) 1905 Grainger Brave Young Sailor- Gulliver (Som) 1905 Hammond Died for Love- James Brown (Hamp) 1906 Gardiner There Is An Ale-House: Clark (Linc) 1906 Grainger Died for Love- Joseph Taylor (Linc) 1906 Grainger Brisk Young Sailor- Thomas Colcombe (Here) 1906 The Alehouse- Henry Way (Dors) 1906 Hammond I Wish Ma Baby- Gouldthorpe (Linc) 1906 Grainger Gin my Bonnie Babe- G. Riddell (Aber) 1906 Greig E I Wish, I Wish- A. Barron (Aber) 1906 Greig F Farmer's Son- William Bailey (Som) 1906 Sharp There is an Alehouse- Asell (Hamp) 1907 Gardiner A Grief- Mrs. Goodyear (Hamp) 1907 Gardiner There is an Alehouse- Channon (Ham) 1907 Gardiner The Alehouse- Mrs. Duncan (Aber) 1907 Grieg K Apron Strings Low- T. Jones (Hamp) 1907 Gardiner Brisk Young Sailor- S Davidson (Aber) 1907 Greig I Apron String Low- Thomas Jones(Hamp) 1907 Guyer Brisk Young Sailor- Richards (Glou) 1907 Sharp Brisk Young Sailor- Ford/Mrs. Cranstone (Sus) 1908 There is an Alehouse- Harrington (Hamp) 1908 Guyer Brisk Young Sailor- Smithers (Glou) 1908 Sharp MS In Halifax Town- David Lyall (Aber) c1908 Duncan Brisk Young Sailor- anon (Norfolk)1908 V. Williams I Wish, I Wish- H. Rae (Aber) 1908 Greig A Student Boy- Wallace (Aber) 1908 Duncan B Student Boy- Mrs. Walker (Aber) 1908 Duncan D I Wish, I wish- Mrs. Willox (Aber) c1908 Greig L There Is a Tavern- Annie Shirer (Aber)1908 Greig M Knutsford Town- W. Hill (Hamp) 1908 Gardiner Irish Boy- Mr. Thompson (Aber) 1908 Grieg Irish Boy- Annie Shirer (Aber) c. 1908 Greig J Brisk Young Drummer- Alexander(Hamp) 1908 Gard There Is An Ale House- Ash (Som) 1908 Sharp MS Brisk Young Sailor- Bayliff (Wes) 1909 Gilchrist Apron Strings- Mrs Collinson (Wes) 1909 Gilchrist Brisk Young Carter- W. Cole (Hamp) 1909 Gardiner Brisk Young Drummer- Alexander (Ham) 1909 Gard Apron Low- Charles Benfield (Oxf) 1909 Sharp MS Brisk Young Sailor- Bowker (Lanc) 1909 Gilchrist British Young Waterman- Hollingsworth (Essex) 1911 I Wish I Wish- Jones (Heref) c.1910 V. Williams Brisk Young Soldier- Robert Feast (Ely) 1911 Sharp A Sailor Bold- Mrs. Joiner (Herts) 1914 Broadwood Apron Low- George Barrett (Wilt) 1916 A. Williams There is a Tavern- Mrs Lee (Wilt) 1916 A. Williams Betsy Williams- K. Williams (Glou) 1921 Sharp Down Jewry Lane- W. Gill (Glou) 1924 Collinson The Soldier's Love- Fred Cottenham (Kent) c.1925 Isle of Cloy- Hill and Waspe (Suf) 1931 Moeran A Maiden Young and Fair- Airman song (UK) 1933 I Wish I Wish- Mrs. Oliver (Kent) c.1936 Collinson Died for Love- Lionel Hall (Faeroe) c.1941 Palmer All You Maidens- Army ballad (UK) 1942 Henderson In Jersey City- Watts and Teesdale (Lon) 1943 Miner Came from Work- kixgrix (Wales) c.1945 The Sailor's Lament- Vern Williams (AU) 1947 I Wish, I Wish- Cecilia Costello (Birm) 1951 REC Foolish Young Girl- Jean Elvin (Buchan) 1952 Foolish Young Girl- Willie Mathieson (Aber) 1952 Brave Young Sailor- A Davies (Glou) 1954 Collinson A Man Came Home- Sheila Stewart (Aber) 1954 A Maiden's Prayer- Duffems (Shef) c. 1955 A Student Boy- Norman Kennedy (Aber) 1958 REC Maiden's Prayer- Harry Cavanagh (AU) c. 1959 There is an Alehouse- Tom Willett (Sus) 1960 REC Died for Love- Tom Willett (Sus) 1960 REC The Irish Boy-Joan Cron (Wigton) c.1962 Martin Blind Beetles- Caroline Hughes (Dors) 1963 REC Sailor Coming Home- Lower Mess Deck (UK) 1966 Bold Fisherman Courted Me- L. Brazil (Glou) 1967 A Miner Coming Home- Rugby song (UK) 1968 A Sailor's Leave- Georgiansilver (UK) 1970s Maiden's Prayer- Doreen Cross (York) 1974 Died for Love- Army song (UK) 1975 Kennedy Sailor Boy- Tony Ballinger (Glos) 1977 Davies Died for Love- Freda Black (Som) 2012 REC TY Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 20 Jan 17 - 11:13 AM Hi, Apparently Apron of Flowers is an Irish version of some antiquity. Does anyone have access to the similar version by Ulster poet, Samuel Ferguson, in 1856? This text is from Sam Henry Collection: Sam Henry's Songs of the People, edited by Gale Huntington, Lani Herrmann, 1990. This opens with a stanza from the broadside "Nelly's Constancy" which also has the third verse. The last two stanzas are from The Constant Lady/Near Woodstock broadside. The Apron of Flowers- Sam Henry recovered it from Mrs. H. Dinsmore of Coleraine on December 26, 1936. I loved a young man, I loved his well, I loved him better than tongue can tell, I loved him better than he loved me, For he did not care for my companie. There is an ale house in this town Where he goes in, and there sits down; And he takes a strange girl on his knee And tells her what he once told me. But I will tell you the reason why, Because he had more gold than I But the gold will melt and the silver fly, And perhaps he'll be as poor as I. But there's a flower grows in this place And some does call it, the heart's ease; And if I could but this flower find I would ease my heart and my troubled mind. Into the green meadows there I'll go And watch the flowers as they grow And every flower I will pull, Until I have my apron full. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 20 Jan 17 - 02:40 PM Hi, The info on Apron of Flowers being written by Ulster poet, Samuel Ferguson, in 1856 is unverified and appears on a website. And info about this would help. A similar text is Over yonder's Hill on Devon Tradition (12TS349, 1979) and reissued on TSCD661 'My Father is the King of the Gypsies.' This version was learned by Amy Birch from her mother, Dehlia Crocker, who kept a notebook of her songs. It was also recorded by Birch's daughter Jean Orchard who apparently used her grandmother's text. There are only a handful of differences between Jean and Amy's versions. Over Yonder's Hill - sung by Amy Birch; recorded by Sam Richards, Paul Wilson and Tish Stubbs in the singer's trailer at Exebridge, Devon, November 1976. Over yonder's hill there is an old house, Where my true love goes and sits himself down, Takes another fresh girl on his knee, Now don't you think that's a grief to me? A grief a grief I'll tell you for why, Because she has more gold than I, Gold may glitter and silver will shine, And all my sorrows will fade in time. I wish the Lord my baby was born, And sit smiling in his own daddy's arms, And me myself wrapped up in cold clay, Then all my sorrows would fade away. There is a flower I have heard people say, They grow by night and it fades by day, Now if that flower I could find, It would cure my heart and ease my mind. So across the fields that poor girl she ran, Gathering flowers just as they sprang, Some she picked and some she pulled, Until she gathered her apron full. She takes them home and she makes her bed, She puts a snow white pillow in under her head, She lies down and she closed her eyes, Closed her eyes, no more for to rise. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Lighter Date: 20 Jan 17 - 05:51 PM My search hasn't been exhaustive, but I don't see anything like it in Ferguson's volume of collected poetry online. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Tradsinger Date: 21 Jan 17 - 06:30 AM Hi Richie, I'll respond to your queries next week when I have more time. Tradsinger |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 21 Jan 17 - 09:23 AM TY, Lighter, I emailed the person who had the Ferguson info on her site, no response yet. Hi Gwilym, I finally did find a listing for Mrs. Packer on Roud with no text: A Brisk Young Sailor Roud Folksong Index (S329128) First Line: Source: Percy Grainger Phonograph (Cylinder) Collection (VWML CDA Tape Collection No.3) Performer: Packer, Mrs. Date: 1908 (5 Apr) Place: England: Gloucestershire: Winchcombe Collector: Grainger, Percy I haven't found any source except for GlosTrad with the text which is: 3. There is a tavern in the town, And there my true love sits him down And takes another lass on his knee, And never ever thinks of me. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants From: Richie Date: 21 Jan 17 - 08:35 PM Hi, I'm going to do a Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants, Part 2 since this is getting rather long and it's hard to see all the posts. So thanks everyone- please reply to this thread- Part 2 Richie |
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