Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 10:28 PM

Hi Steve,

I emailed you some of the broadsides I don't have that I need- not sure if you have them. I need the Grieg-Duncan- not sure if Will Ye Gang, Love/Rashy Muir will be part or a related ballad. Please send any related broadsides that are not available online- TY

As far as Rambling Boy- I have the Robertson chapbook 1799 with suicide and the Pitts c. 1820 (random stanzas, no suicide)

All the Cruel Father versions have the suicide but they are a different ballad story:

B. The Cruel Father ("A squire's daughter near Aclecloy,") her love is sent to sea- dies of a cannonball
   a. "The Cruel Father or Deceived Maid," from the Madden Collection, c.1790.
   b. "Answer to Rambling Boy" from a chapbook by J & M Robertson, Saltmarket, Glasgow; 1799.
   c. "The Squire's Daughter," printed by W. Shelmerdine and Co., Manchester c. 1800
   d. "Answer to Rambling Boy," four printings from US Chapbooks: 1. The Harper: to which are added, Shannon's flowery banks, The rambling boy, with The answer. Bung your eye, Henry and Laury [i.e. Laura]. London [i.e., Philadelphia : s.n., 1805?] 2. The Rambling boy, with the Answer : to which is added, Blue bells of Scotland, Good morrow to your night cap, Capt. Stephen Decatur's victory, Green upon the cape. From Early American imprints., Second series, no. 50722. [Philadelphia]: [publisher not identified], 1806; 3. The Bold mariners: The rambling boy, and the answer: Roslin Castle, to which is added the answer: Flashy Tom. [Philadelphia? : s.n.], January, 1811; 4. Ellen O'Moore. The Bold mariners. The Rambling boy. Barbara Allen. [United States : s.n.], January, 1817.
   e. "Sweet William," as written down about July 1, 1915, by Miss Mae Smith of Sugar Grove, Watauga county, from the singing of her stepmother, Mrs. Mary Smith, who learned it over forty years ago. submitted by Thomas Smith, Brown Collection, c.1875.
   f. "Rambling Boy" Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads, John Lomax 1916 edition.
   g. "Cruel Father" sung by Fanny Coffee of White Rock, Virgiia on May 8, 1918. Cecil Sharp Manuscript Collection.
   h. "The Wrecked and Rambling Boy" from Mrs. Audrey Hellums, Tishomingo, Mississippi. Hudson C, 1926
   i. "Oh Willie" from Mary Lou Bell of Staunton Virginia; 1932
   j. "The Isle of Cloy" collected by E.J. Moeran in the 1930s in Suffolk from George Hill and Oliver Waspe.
   k. "Black Birds." Miss Lura Wagoner of Vox, Allegheny County, NC, 1938
   l. "Oh Willie" sung by Rod Drake of Silsbee Texas; See Owens, 1952.
   m. "Rude and Rambling Boy," Buna Hicks Sugar Grove, NC, 1966.

Only two of the traditional versions I've found so far tell the ballad story of B.

When are you back at your computer?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:26 AM

Hi Richie,
Back now.
It will be a help to other researchers and me if you use the Roud numbers each time you post something you need info on.

I also wonder if, now the separate songs have been identified, we really should have separate threads. Perhaps it's a bit late for that.

I thought I had sent you info on 'The Queen of Hearts' printed by Wright of Birmingham which has the beginning of a ballad called Bonnie Blue'eyed Lass' derived from a Roxburghe Ballad and the last 6 stanzas of 18830. (See Bodl. Harding B28 (120).

Others I can add to your list are 'Beam of Oak' sung by LaRena Clark, Fowke, p62.
'The Irish Boy' in FSJ31 a fragment at p28.
More to follow.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 09:56 AM

Richie,
Have you got a copy of Ronnie Clark's recent edition of The Mansfield Manuscript? I am reluctant to post what is there at p4 (c1770) as it might tip you over the edge.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 12:54 PM

Hi Steve,

I will start using the Roud numbers. I'm not sure about Beam of Oak, need a definition of which ballads fall there- see post above- but I'm willing to work with the Roud numbers in place.

I do not have Ronnie Clark's recent edition of The Mansfield Manuscript. Please email copy or post here.

I'm still trying to organize the foundation which is why I need as many of the older broadsides you have. I also need Grieg/Duncan.

There are a number of ballads which will be under the Died for Love umbrella and a number of them will be separate and listed as appendices. Right now I have:

7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William (Roud 273; Laws K12)

7B. Love Has Brought Me To Despair [Roud?] This is not or should not be part of Roud 60 since it's based on a different broadside.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 02:52 PM

Okay this is the Elizabeth St. Clair piece which may or may not have been redacted by her c1770 in Edinburgh. She was a member of Edinburgh high society and was a friend of Mrs. Cockburn. The ms also contains a few Child ballads some known to Child and some not.

The Irish Boy

O what a foolish girl was I
To fall in love with an Irish Boy
Who could not speak good English to me
Which was the thing that did undo me.

My mother chide me for my kindness
She often said I was led in blindness
But she may go home and frown in leisure
For a sight of my love is all my pleasure.

You go by my door as you do not know me
You seem to me as you did not love me
I loved you once and I durst not show it
Do you the same and let no man know it.

The rose it is red and the violet's blue
The honey's sweet love and so art thou
Thou art mine love and I am thine
I drew thee to be my Valentine.

O meeting's pleasure but parting's sorrow
Have the night and away tomorrow
But as you leave me so you'll find me
I cannot live one hour behind thee.

O if I were on yon high mountain
Had gold and money for the counting
I could not count it for thinking on thee
Have pity on me my dear honey.

Well did he know I could bake and brew
Well did he know I could shape and sew
Could wash his linnens and dress them fine
But now he's gone and left me behind.

My love's away and he's long of coming
My heart is broken with thinking on him
He's over seas and there he's carried
Another woman I fear he's married.

Home her father dear came then
Asking for his daughter Jean
Up stairs he ran and the door he broke
He found her hanging on a rope.

Two long hours after she was dead
These lines were found beneath her hand
This is the way I must end my life
Cause my lodger won't make me his wife.

Certainly a curious hotch-potch. Was she playing around with bits and pieces she knew and adding in her own ideas? I'll leave you for now to sort out where the bits and pieces come from. At least 7 of the 10 come from the general corpus of laments.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 04:09 PM

I do have The Mansfield Manuscript as a PDF and looked at that one starting on p.4 before I saw that Steve had quoted it. It is pretty incoherent. The change from first person to third person in this sort of song isn't so unusual, but it's disconcerting to have several verses in the girl's voice and then an account of her suicide.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 05:50 PM

Hi,

Great version, it's of the Foolish Young Girl branch of which I have 5 or 6 versions- identified by the first stanza and known also as 'Irish Boy' as I posted earlier. They all have different floating verses but many are the same. Above is a link to Willie Mathieson's version online- which I can't understand.

The date is important too since that takes it back another 100 years or so-

TY Steve,

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Dec 16 - 06:10 PM

Hi Richie, titles and first stanzas are pretty useless in identifying these sort of songs. Nothing should be assumed without looking at the full text of any version.

Here's my analysis of the St. Clair piece:
1. lines 1 & 2. The Irish Boy (broadside, GPB)
lines 3 & 4 probably St Clair.

2.Possibly St Clair.

3. lines 1 & 2 vaguely Brisk Young Sailor ideas.
lines 3 & 4 Rambling Boy (st6 Robertson)

4. From a well-known Valentine.

5. Roud 3195 Queen of Hearts

6. Ibid.

7. St4 in The Maid's Tragedy

8. Queen of Hearts

9. Rambling Boy

10 lines 1 & 2, Rambling Boy
lines 3 & 4 William McGonegal!!

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 31 Dec 16 - 02:14 PM

TY Steve for that analysis.

Her are the notes from Traditional Music from the Shetland Isles:

Jeannie learned this song from other girls at cairdings and at the gutting work on the fishing stations. It was well known in Aberdeenshire with a variety of titles such as I wish, I wish, The Student Boy, Died for Love, etc.. In the USA it appeared on Broadsheets with the title The Butcher Boy.

The Foolish Young Girl- sung by Jeannie Hutchison- SA1974.13.3
Listen: http://www.sssa.llc.ed.ac.uk/whalsay/2014/12/16/foolish-young-girl-the-2/

Oh what a foolish girl was I
To fall in love with a sailor boy;
A sailor lad although he may be,
He spak the braid Scots when he courted me.

He courted me through frost an' snaw
At when my apron strings did blow;
But noo that they can scarcely tie
He looks at me and passes by.

But I wish, I wish my babe was born
An' sat upon my nurse's knee;
I wish that I were dead and gone
An' the green, green grass growin' over me.

I've wished, I've wished, I've wished in vain;
I've wished to become a fair maid again.
A maid again I never will be
Till an orange grows on an apple tree.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 01 Jan 17 - 12:41 PM

Hi, Richie & Steve, and others.

I've been away from my PC for a week (bracing experience in itself, by the way).

Yes, Steve, I agree that the Henderson song has a vaudeville ring, including the tune. Perhaps it is no older than the 1930s. That might explain why it was apparently especially popular ca1940.

Thanks, Richie, for your heroic work on this song (and on others).

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 01 Jan 17 - 09:29 PM

Ty for the kind words Lighter- and the text you posted!!

I've started writing and already have probably 12 pages and I haven't really started.

If anyone wants to read some of it - please do: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7-died-for-love-sheffield-park-butcher-boy.aspx

Steve Gardham has been a great help and my B version is filled out but the rest are in the embryonic stage- I'm sure some of it will change.

Any other versions are welcome, happy new year!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 09:27 AM

Hi,

here's a variant of Foolish Girl/Irish Boy with a chorus. Anyone know where the Chorus comes from? After consider I think "The Queen of Hearts" should be included as a variant. Anyone agree?

The Maid's Tragedy- broadside dated c1790, from St. Bride's Printing Library, London.

What a foolish girl was I,
to fall in love with an Irish boy?
What tho' he's false and wicked to me
The though of my love will quite undo me.

CHORUS: O home! O home! my heart's uneasy
       In parting with my dearest honey,
       He's gone to Ireland and long will tarry
       Some other girl I fear he'll marry

My love knows I can wash an wring
My love knows I can card and spin
All for to keep his clothing fine
Why did he go and leave me behind.

As I was walking up Fenchurch Street,
My apron spread like a sheet,
My belly up to my chin,
My love passed by and said nothing.

I'd lov'd you better than father or mother
I'd lov'd you better than sister or brother
I'd lov'd you better than all my kin
If you was without, love, I wou'd let you in.

As I was walking up Francis-Street,
My true love with a letter I chanced to meet,
And in this letter these lines was written,
I am often seen but soon forgotten[1].

Her father coming home late at night,
Calling for his heart's delight
He ran upstairs the door he broke,
And found her hanging by a rope.

In her bosom a note he found,
For an Irish boy my heart was bound,
To all young maids let his a warning be,
Lest young men should prove your misery.

Now dig my grave both wide and deep,
With a marble stone to cover it,
In the middle thereof a turtle-dove,
to shew the world I dy'd for love.

1. Also, "Seldom seen and soon forgotten."

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 12:36 PM

Whatever may be printed, "O home, O home!" should be "Ochone! Ochone!" a Gaelic expression of grief or dismay.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 01:00 PM

Hi,

Good one Lighter- there's an obscure broadside called Irish Boy's Lamentation the also has "O Home, O home" but that's the reason it's obscure.

Here's one and the earliest extant broadside of "The Queen of Hearts" by Pitts (Printer) Wholesale Toy and Marble warehouse 6, Great St. Andrew street, 7 Dials, London. The broadside is identified by the 2nd stanza. It's ending (stanzas 7 and 8) is similar to, or a rewrite of B, The Cruel Father, where her lover is sent to sea and killed by a cannonball. Some of the intermediate stanzas as pointed out by Steve are found in Elizabeth St. Clair's "Irish Boy."


The Queen of Hearts- broadside by Pitts (Printer) of 7 Dials, London about 1820.

1. O my poor heart my poor heart is breaking
For a false young man I'm quite mistaken
He is gone to Ireland long time to tarry,
Some Irish girl I am afraid he will marry.

2. The Queen of Hearts and the Ace of sorrow,
He is here today and gone tomorrow
Young men are plenty sweethearts few
But if my love leaves me what shall I do.

3. When he comes in I gaze all around him
When he goes out my poor heart goes with him
To meet is a pleasure to part is a sorrow,
He is here today and gone tomorrow.

4. I wish I was upon yonder mountain
Where gold and silver I could have for counting
I could not count it for thinking upon him
He is nothing to me what makes me love him

5. I love my father I love my mother,
I love my sister and likewise my brother
I love my friends and relations too,
I will forsake them all and follow you

6. O Billy O Billy I love you well,
I love you better than tongue can tell
I love you dearly and dare not show it
You do the same and no one shall know it

7. But when her father came to hear
That he was courting his daughter dear
He had him pressed and sent to sea
To keep him from her sweet company

8. He had not been there years passing three
On board the ship called the Victory
It was his misfortune there for to fall
And killed he was by cannon ball.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 01:44 PM

Hi,

The other Queen of Hearts broadside about 12 years later has two changes, one might be important- the ship is now called the "Royal Victory" (instead of "Victory') and a ship by that name was operating in the late 1600s. If anyone know what ship that could be please post as it might help date the original.

"The Queen of Hearts" Wright, Printer, 113, Moor-Street, Birmingham c. 1833

1. Oh my poor heart-- my heart is breaking
For a false young man or I am mistaken
He is gone to Ireland long time to tary,
Some Irish girl I'm afraid he will marry.

2. The Queen of Hearts and the ace of sorrow,
He is here today and gone to-morrow,
Young men are plenty sweethearts few
But if my love leaves me what shall I do.

3. When he comes in, I gaze all around him,
When he goes out my poor heart goes with him,
To meet is a pleasure, to part is a sorrow,
He is here to-day and gone to-morow.

4. I wish I was on yonder mountain
Where gold & silver I could have for coun[t]ing
I could not count it for thinking on him
He is not kind to me, what makes me love him?

5. I love my father I love my mother,
I love my sister and likewise my brother
I love my friends and relations too,
I will forsake them all and follow you

6. O Billy O Billy I love thee well,
I love you better than tongue can tell
I love thee dearly, and dare not show it
You do the same, and no one shall know it

7. But when her father came to hear,
That he was a courting his daughter dear,
He had him press'd and sent to sea,
To keep him from her sweet company.

8. He had not been there passing years three,
On board the ship called the Royal victory
It was his misfortune there for to fall
And killed he was by a cannon ball.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 03:29 PM

Richie,
On the slip The Maid's Tragedy/The Irish Boy's Lamentation(which latter is obviously meant to be the continuation or answer) the chorus is 'O hone! O hone!' in both.

Also you have omitted a stanza (6) in the Wright printing of QoH.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 04:13 PM

Hi Steve,

O hone! O hone! you're right!!! TYVM!

Corrected:

"The Queen of Hearts" Wright, Printer, 113, Moor-Street, Birmingham c. 1833

1. Oh my poor heart-- my heart is breaking
For a false young man or I am mistaken
He is gone to Ireland long time to tary,
Some Irish girl I'm afraid he will marry.

2. The Queen of Hearts and the ace of sorrow,
He is here today and gone to-morrow,
Young men are plenty sweethearts few
But if my love leaves me what shall I do.

3. When he comes in, I gaze all around him,
When he goes out my poor heart goes with him,
To meet is a pleasure, to part is a sorrow,
He is here to-day and gone to-morow.

4. I wish I was on yonder mountain
Where gold & silver I could have for coun[t]ing
I could not count it for thinking on him
He is not kind to me, what makes me love him?

5. I love my father and likewise my mother,
I love my sister and also my brother
I love my friends and relations too,
I will forsake them all, and follow you.

6. My father will give me both houses and land
If I'll consent to be at his command,
At his command I never will be,
I will forsake them all, and go with thee.

7. O Billy O Billy I love thee well,
I love you better than tongue can tell,
I love thee dearly, and dare not show it,
You do the same, and no one shall know it.

8. But when her father came to hear,
That he was a courting his daughter dear,
He had him press'd and sent to sea,
To keep him from her sweet company.

9. He had not been there passing years three,
On board the ship called the Royal victory
It was his misfortune there for to fall
And killed he was by a cannon ball.

Baring Gould's version is attributed to two different sources- not exactly sure which one is right;

1) In his notebook it's "sung by a nanny on a train journey from Tavistock to Yelverton" dated 1897.

2) It was printed in 1905 in the new and revised (i.e. 3rd) edition of Songs of the West (now out of print). It is reprinted here by courtesy of Messrs. Curwen and Sons Ltd. According to a note it was sung by a workman engaged on the Burrow-Tor reservoir at Sheepstor, the water supply for Plymouth, 1894.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 04:30 PM

Richie,
It's NAVVY, i.e., a workman on a railway or reservoir in this case. 1894 is possibly an error.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 05:09 PM

Ty Steve,

Couldn't read his handwriting:) If it's an error than how do you explain his notes in the 1905 published version:

Notes:

Sung by a workman on the Borrow-Tor reservoir, the water supply for Plymouth, 1894. It has been printed on Broadside by Batchelar, B.M. in vol. vi p110. This version begins--

'O my poor heart, my poor heart is breaking,
For a false young man, or I am mistaking:
He is gone to Ireland, for a long time to tarry,
Some Irish girl I am afraid he will marry.

The ballad has a flavour of of the period of Charles II.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 05:18 PM

OK,

So it's the same person, the date was given as 1897 in a different edition reprinting the song but that date was wrong. So the date is 1894.

Songs of the West, by S. Baring Gould, H Fleetwood Sheppard, and F.W. Bussell, new and revised edition (Methuen, n.d. [1905], pp. 232-233; with music).

                   THE QUEEN OF HEARTS

    1. To the Queen of Hearts he's the Ace of sorrow,
       He's here to-day, he's gone to-morrow;
       Young men are plenty but sweet-hearts few,
       If my love leave [sic] me, what shall I do?

    2. When my love comes in I gaze not around,
       When my love goes out, I fall in a swound;
       To meet is pleasure, to part is sorrow,
       He is here to-day, he is gone to-morrow.

    3. Had I the store in yonder mountain,
       Where gold and silver is had for counting,
       I could not count, for the thought of thee,
       My eyes so full that I could not see.

    4. I love my father, I love my mother,
       I love my sister, I love my brother;
       I love my friends, my relations too,
       But I'll leave them all for the love of you.

    5. My father left me both house and land,
       And servants many at my command;
       At my commandment they ne'er shall be,
       I'll forsake them all for to follow thee.

    6. An Ace of sorrow to the Queen of Hearts,
       O how my bosom bleeds and smarts;
       Young men are plenty, but sweet-hearts few,
       If my love leave me what shall I do?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 05:19 PM

I find his handwriting hard to read at the best of times. It could equally be 1894 in the manuscript. It's also possible he couldn't read his own handwriting.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 03 Jan 17 - 11:09 PM

Hi,

Maybe this is common knowledge: In the last stanza of Wright broadside "Queen of Hearts" line 2 appears these words, "On board the ship called the Royal victory." "Royal victory" is likely a corruption since the ship in the other broadsides is referred to as the "Victory" which is likely the HMS Victory, a 104-gun first-rate ship of the line of the Royal Navy, ordered in 1758, laid down in 1759 and launched in 1765. She is best known as Lord Nelson's flagship at the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805.

I did find evidence of a ship called "Royal Victory" in 1692 however it seems that HMS Victory is the ship.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 04 Jan 17 - 09:23 AM

Pedant mode on.

Richie quoted "If my love leave [sic] me, what shall I do?", presumably inserting the "sic" because it's "leave" rather than "leaves".

There is nothing wrong with "leave" in that context, but it is subjunctive, a verb mood which is slowly dying out in English. We can speculate about which the navvy from whom B-G collected that version actually sang.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jan 17 - 10:07 PM

Hi,

Interesting point- I copied it (didn't insert sic) and wondered about that too. I also noticed that Baring Gould's punctuation "to-day" and "to-morrow" appear exactly the same in broadside versions and if I remember correctly Baring Gould himself doesn't not punctuate these words this way. We know he edited and rewrote and we know he had a print copy so. . .

I've started putting UK versions on my site, I want to thank Steve for sending me many of the copies I have put on so far.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 09:20 AM

Hyphenation of "to-day" and "to-morrow" (and "to-night")used to be normal practice as well.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 05:30 PM

Hi,

Does anyone have any details (date notes location etc) about this version collected by MacColl:

B. [untitled] Caroline Hughes

1 O for that dear girl, she roamed those meadows,
She were picking these flowers by one, two or three;
She picked, she plucked until she gained
Until she gathered her apron full.

2 O, when I were single, I wear my apron strings long;
My love passed me by and say nothing;
But now my belly it's up to my chin,
My love he pass by and frowns on me.

3 A grief, a grief, I'll tell you for why:
Because that girl she's got more gold than me;
Well, gold shall glitter, her beauty will fade,
That's why it puts back a poor girl like me.

4 On yonders hill, there stands an alehouse
Where my true love goes and sets himself down,
He takes another strange girl on his knee
And kisses her and frowns on me.

5 A grief, a grief, I'll tell you for why:
Because that girl she's got more gold than me;
Well, gold shall glitter, her beauty will fade,
That's why she'll become a poor girl like me.

6 On yonders hill there's blind beetles crawl,
As blind as blind could be
I wish to God that I'd been one of those
Before I gained my love's company.

I'm interested in source of "Three worms" and in this "blind beetles crawl" Anyone?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 06:09 PM

It seems to first appear as a stanza in the common broadside 'Brisk Young Sailor' text which is where all of the other stanzas in Caroline's text can be found. It may have been inspired by the 9th stanza in The Lady's Lamentation.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 07:31 PM

Hi,

TY Steve, MacColl called it the "blind worm" motive, if that helps.

9th stanza in The Lady's Lamentation;

9. There is a flower as I've heard say,
I wish I could that flower find,
It would ease my heart,
And cure my mind.

which is taken from Oxfordshire Tragedy where the flower is a heart-ease if I remember correctly.

In Johnson's 1611 version there's and herb called Dead-Man's Thumb but no worms!!!

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 07:43 PM

Hi,

I should have posted the three worms ;)

There was three worms on yonder hill,
They neither could not hear nor see;
I wish I'd been but one of them
When first I gained my liberty. [from Dorset 1905]

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 08:00 PM

I thought it was "blind bird"= "three worms" but MacColl's comment floored me- as if it was a common motive. This is where I thought it came from- a standard stanza:

There is a bird on yonder tree,
They say it's blind and cannot see;
I wish it had been the same with me
Before I joined his company.

MacColl gave an analysis which make some sense, even tho I don't agree- it's basically:

------
55. DIED FOR LOVE. There is a large group of love-lamentations which have enough verses in common to be called 'a family.' They are all based upon a man's infidelity to his avowed lover.

1. Deep in Love- "Must I go Bound"
2. Butcher Boy
3. Love has brought me to Despair-- "blind worm" motive
4. Waly waly
5. Tavern in the town "Let him go, let him tarry" The alehouse verse is vital to this type.
6. Careless Love
7. Died for love
--------

He doesn't even mention Sheffield Park or Brisk Young Sailor. In my opinion, altho I'm just learning these ballads/song, only Tavern (which is a 1891 composition and not a folk song) and Butcher Boy are closely related.

What do you think?

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 05 Jan 17 - 08:43 PM

Hi,

I just looked at "Three Worms." It's like the modern version (Pitts) of Sheffield Park (the older versions don't have the stanzas from Qxfordshire Tragedy) on steroids!!! Of course it's mixed with Brisk Young Sailor too.

In stanza 10 she gets revenge- too funny!!!

10 Oh, so now she is dead and her corpse is cold
I met her false lover, and him I told:
"Come and walk after your heart's delight;
She will walk with you both day and night!

Happy haunting!

Richie

THERE WAS THREE WORMS ON YONDER HILL. [A BRISK YOUNG SAILOR.]
SUNG BY MR. BARTLETT,
Noted by the late H. E. D. Hammond. AT WIMBORNE, DORSET, IN 1905.

1. There was three worms on yonder hill,
They neither could not hear nor see;
I wish I'd been but one of them
When first I gained my liberty.
[Repeat last two lines.]

2 Then a brisk young lad came a-courting me,
He stole away my liberty;
He stole it away with a free goodwill,
He've a-got it now, and he'll keep it still.

3 Oh, for once I wore my apron-strings low
My love followed me through frost and snow,
But now they're almost up to my chin
My love pass by and say nothing.

4 Now there is an ale-house in this town,
Where my false love go and sit himself down
And takes strange girls all on his knee-
And don't you think that's a grief to me ?
[Or Because they have more gold than me.]

5 So gold will waste and beauty pass
And she will come like me at last.
That mortal man when he served me so
When I was down where the daisies grow.

6 Now there is a flower, I heard them say,
Would ease my heart both night and day.
I wish to God that flower I could find
That would ease my heart and my troubling mind.

7 Then out in the mead the poor girl run
To call those flowers fast as they sprung;
'Twas some she picked, some she pulled,
Till at length she gained her apron full.

8 On those sweet flowers she made her bed,
A stony pillow for her head;
Then down she lay and never spoke,
And now her tender heart is broke.

9 Now she is dead and her corpse is cold
I met her false-love, and him I told
"A bad misfortune I come to tell."
"I'm glad," said he, "she have done so well."

10 Oh, so now she is dead and her corpse is cold
I met her false lover, and him I told:
"Come and walk after your heart's delight;
She will walk with you both day and night!

11 So dig her a grave long, wide and deep,
And strow it over with flowers sweet;
Lay on her breast a turtle-dove,
That folks may see that she died for love.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 17 - 11:22 AM

Richie,
When MacColl wrote those notes he probably hadn't a decent grasp of the broadside traditon. When he uses the title 'Tavern in the Town' I would guess he's actually referring to 'Brisk Young Sailor' where the verse occurs. This is quite reasonable for someone mostly acquainted with oral versions. The 1880s/1891 student song is properly titled 'There is a tavern in the Town' from the first line.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 09:05 PM

Hi,

Need some help with two versions from Vaughan Williams. Both are titled "There Is An Alehouse" one is from 1912 sung by an unknown gypsy from Herefordshire and the other is sung by Mrs. Dann in 1907. Both have music although hard to read ;)

I do have four versions with music from Vaughan Williams, here's one:

A Brisk Young Farmer- sung by Thomas Bowes of Westerdale, Yorkshire on 23 July, 1904. Usual stanzas from "Bold Young Farmer" both collected by Vaughan Williams.

A brisk young farmer courted me,
He stole away my liberty,
He stole my heart with my free good will,
I must confess I love him still.

There is an inn, in this same town,
Where my love goes and sits him down,
And takes another girl on his knee,
He tells her what he doesn't tell me.

Its grief to me, I'll tell you for why,
Because she has more gold than I,
But in needy time her gold shall fly,
And she shall be as poor as I.

When first I wore my apron low,
My love followed me thro' frost and snow,
But now my apron's up to my chin,
My love passes by and he says nothing.

There is a bird on yonder tree,
They say it's blind and cannot see;
I wish it had been the same with me,
Before I joined his company.

Go dig my grave both long, wide and deep,
Place a marble stone at my head and feet,
And in the middle a turtle dove,
To show the wide world I died for love.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 09:24 PM

Hi,

I also need versions of "Over Yonder's Hill" as sung by Freda Black or Amy Birch. I do have the version from Amy's daughter but Jean learned it from another source.

Baring-Gould studied this ballad and all his versions begin "Brisk Young Miner." So far all of the UK versions I've seen do not have this title. Any thoughts as to how this could be. I've got three versions from his leading informants David Parsons, Same Fone, and John Woodrich. As author of "Book of Werewolves" Baring-Gould could have added more spice but his re-write is a bit tame (no fangs); here's his A version:

A. The Brisk Young Miner- sung by John Woodrich probably Sept., 1896 or early as 1889. Woodrich was a blacksmith from Wollacot Moor, Thrushleton [sic], Devon.

1. A brisk young miner courted me
He stole away my liberty,
My liberty with free good will.
For all his faults I love him still.

2. There is a tavern in our town,
Where my false lover will sit him down,
Another maiden is on his knee
He never, never, now thinks on me.

3. A grief to me, I'll tell you why,
She has no more of show than I.
The show will waste, & beauty blast,
And poor she'll be as me at last

4. Once I could wear my apron low
He followed me through frost & snow.
But now 'tis risen to touch my chin,
My love passed by, but said nothing.

5. I wish, I wish, my babe were born
Sat smiling on its daddy's arm,
And I myself - cut short my span,
I would be free from that young man.

6. O dig my grave both wide & deep,
Put tombstones at my head & feet
And carve there on a turtledove,
To signify that I died of love.

In stanza two he "Americanized it" a bit showing his knowledge of published versions. Aside from that only 5 and 6 should touches of tampering, the most blatant being 5:

And I myself - cut short my span,
I would be free from that young man.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Jan 17 - 10:44 AM

Sailor/farmer adapted to 'Miner' in the West Country would be quite natural. Cornwall was noted for its tin mines and it only takes one influential version.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 10 Jan 17 - 08:23 PM

Ty Steve,

Here's a version Steve sent me from The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection- Volume 8- page 501 by Patrick N. Shuldham-Shaw, ‎Emily B. Lyle, published 2002, version C. This is a variant of Brisk Young Sailor with the Foolish Young Girl or, Irish Boy stanza.

Georgina (b. about 1868, d. 1958) was the daughter of John Reid (c. 1844 Elgin) and Elizabeth Murray (c. 1838 Aberdour) who taught Georgina her songs. The family (with seven children) were living at Cottage Ford, Federate, New Deer, Aberdeen in 1881. so I've dated this c. 1882. She later married Alexander Ironside b. 1864 did he not belong to any of the New Deer Ironsides (at least not for a couple of generations back) who was the son of Alexander Ironside and Mary Still. These Ironsides were from Fyvie.

The Sailor Boy- sung by Miss Georgina Reid (b. 1868) of Collyford, New Deer. Her married name was Mrs. Alexander Ironside and she lived at Woodside, Carmousie, Turiff. Georgina learned her songs from her parents.

1. Oh what a foolish young girl was I,
To lay my love on a sailor boy
A sailor boy although that he be,
He spoke brood Scotch when he courted me.

2. My love he wears a smiling face
And on his jacket he wears gold lace
he thinks himself of a higher degree
but oh, if he knew it, it's a grief to me

3. It's a grief to me and I'll tell you why,
Because she has more gold than I,
But her gold will fade and her silver decay,
She'll be left a poor girl as well as I.

4. My love he goes to yonder town,
In yonder inn it's him you'll see,
He takes another girl on his knee,
And tells he what he's told to me.

5. I wish, I wish, my babe were born
And placed on some kind nurse's knee.
And I myself in the old churchyard
With the green grass growing over me.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:56 PM

Hi,

What has seemed obvious to me all along--I thought I'd get some feed back on:

liberty= virginity

A sailor bold he courted me,
He stole away my liberty,
He stole it with a free good will,
He's got it now, and he'll keep it still.

I guess I'm confused because I've seen no one point this out- or, did I miss something?

Opinions please.

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:41 AM

I think that "liberty" is used in a general sense, as defined by Oxford, of

"The condition of being able to act or function without hindrance or restraint; faculty or power to do as one likes."

"Freedom" would be the more likely word today.

However...versions about babies and suicides surely *imply* that the loss of freedom comes from both her loss of virginity and her love for her seducer.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 06:41 AM

I think that "liberty" is used in a general sense, as defined by Oxford, of

"The condition of being able to act or function without hindrance or restraint; faculty or power to do as one likes."

"Freedom" would be the more likely word today.

However...versions about babies and suicides surely *imply* that her loss of freedom comes from both her loss of virginity and her love for her seducer.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:34 PM

Thanks Lighter,

Here's another example:

A farmer's son he courted me,
Until he had gained his liberty,
He gain'd it of me with a free good will,
But [despite] all his faults I loved him still.

sung by William Bailey Cannington Somerset 1906

Any other opinions? Comments?

TY

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 02:55 PM

All of the broadsides including the 2 18th century ones have the second line. 'and stole away my liberty'. Is there any need for further comment?

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 03:51 PM

Thanks Steve,

You'd have thunk that Broadwood or Gilchrist in their many pages of commentary on the ballad in the JFSS or some later commentator would have pointed out all the 'hidden meaning' in the text.

The moral: Don't lose your liberty or you might get pregnant!!

or

in

the

US: Give me liberty or give me death

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:10 PM

Er.....what hidden meaning? Some of the 17thc pieces might have had some but by the end of the 18th everything left was pretty straightforward and simple. 'Deep in Love' has some symbolism but we haven't got there yet.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:12 PM

The question may only apply to the one text, but it seems likely that the line meant (to the singer)that he gained his "freedom" to do (with her) as he liked.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Richie
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 09:33 PM

Hi,

OK. My mind's in the gutter.

The English Dialect Society in their Publications, Volume 41 1896, gave this report:

"When apples grow on orange trees." A variant of this common phrase concludes an old song which I do not remember to have seen in any printed collection. Here and there it is not unlike—though elsewhere manifestly inferior to— 'Waly, Waly, love be bonny,' in Percy's Reliques, and the Orpheus Caledonius.

i. There is a house in yonder town,
Where my love goes and sits him down;
He takes a strange girl on his knee,
O don't you think that's grief to me?

ii. 0 grief, O grief, I'll tell you why,
Because she's got more gold than I.
But her gold will waste, and her beauty blast;
Poor girl, she'll come like me at last.

iii. For when my apron-strings were low,
He follow'd me thro' frost and snow;
But now they are up to my chin,
He passes by and says nothing (sic)[1].

iv. 'I wish, I wish, but 'tis all in vain,
I wish I was a maid again;
A maid again I ne'er shall be,
Till an apple grows on an orange tree.'

My questions are where did "Till an apple grows on an orange tree" originate (I know there are various other analogies with different fruit- need to have the "A maid again" line) and when was it attached to this ballad?

(I know at this point she lost her liberty:)

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 10:42 AM

> OK. My mind's in the gutter.

But it shows you're paying attention.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 11:41 AM

At the moment, the earliest occurrence of the line I can find is in one of Kidson's Yorkshire versions, published in 1891.

The Bodleian Ballad cite appears to have no broadside printing of the "I Wish, I Wish" song that I can see.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 01:27 PM

Hi Richie
I have spent the last 3 days pondering this exact same question. The stanza does not appear in any of the many extant printed versions, but it occurs in roughly half of the many oral versions in the British Isles, with perhaps something of a northern bias. The earliest version I can find at the moment was collected by Kidson in the 1880s in North Yorkshire. I would say the likelihood is that there was an influential broadside version that contained this verse which hasn't turned up yet.

It is part of the collection of commonplaces we collectively refer to as 'impossibilities'. These come in 2 forms, both quite ancient; one being the somewhat humorous nonsense type such as 'Martin said to his man/Who's the fool now?' where the emphasis is on entertainment; and the other type is those that occur in dialogue laments. Often these come in the form of the maid asking 'When shall we be married?' and this is met with a whole catalogue of things like 'when fishes fly and the seas run dry' as responses. One type of fruit growing on another tree is quite common.

I will investigate further by looking at other laments.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 01:56 PM

Richie,
Just glancing through American versions of Butcher Boy and although as you'd expect it rarely occurs there, it has attached itself to 3 versions I have. It occurs in a Missouri version from 1941 in Emrich's Folklore on the American Land, p526, and in a Massachusettes version in Thompson, p387, and in Gardner and Chickering, p117 from Michigan.

Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 02:21 PM

Richie,
In Christie's TBA there is a version of the scarce ballad 'The Chain of Love/As through the Groves' which has 2 stanzas from Rambling Boy.
I wish I were a little bird' and 'I wish i were a little fly'. These are very likely placed there by Christie as he was a noted mix and matcher.

Oh 100