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blacked up morris dancers abused in uk

Related threads:
Shrewsbury FF to ban 'blacked up' Morris (264)
All Black Tup (7)
Black-faced Morris dancers (286)


GUEST,Guest Tim 11 Jan 17 - 03:17 PM
The Sandman 11 Jan 17 - 03:25 PM
Steve Gardham 11 Jan 17 - 04:31 PM
The Sandman 11 Jan 17 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 11 Jan 17 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,ripov 11 Jan 17 - 07:19 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 17 - 07:26 PM
GUEST 11 Jan 17 - 07:31 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Jan 17 - 07:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Jan 17 - 09:18 PM
Howard Jones 12 Jan 17 - 03:59 AM
Manitas_at_home 12 Jan 17 - 07:38 AM
The Sandman 12 Jan 17 - 08:18 AM
The Sandman 12 Jan 17 - 09:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Jan 17 - 09:14 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jan 17 - 09:22 AM
The Sandman 12 Jan 17 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Jon 12 Jan 17 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Jon 12 Jan 17 - 09:36 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jan 17 - 09:49 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Jan 17 - 11:13 AM
GUEST 12 Jan 17 - 12:20 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jan 17 - 12:37 PM
Senoufou 12 Jan 17 - 02:07 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jan 17 - 02:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jan 17 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,pauperback 12 Jan 17 - 02:58 PM
David Carter (UK) 12 Jan 17 - 03:30 PM
The Sandman 12 Jan 17 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,Morris-ey 12 Jan 17 - 06:19 PM
The Sandman 12 Jan 17 - 06:43 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Jan 17 - 10:51 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Jan 17 - 11:06 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Jan 17 - 11:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jan 17 - 11:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jan 17 - 11:59 PM
Backwoodsman 13 Jan 17 - 12:05 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Jan 17 - 12:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jan 17 - 12:29 AM
Backwoodsman 13 Jan 17 - 12:37 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jan 17 - 01:37 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jan 17 - 01:37 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jan 17 - 01:49 AM
David Carter (UK) 13 Jan 17 - 02:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jan 17 - 02:59 AM
Howard Jones 13 Jan 17 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,padgett 13 Jan 17 - 04:35 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jan 17 - 05:07 AM
GUEST,Guest 13 Jan 17 - 05:29 AM
GUEST 13 Jan 17 - 05:49 AM
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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Guest Tim
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 03:17 PM

My wife just asked, do these Morris Dancers have 10 inch shafts in keeping with political correctness. lol


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 03:25 PM

The EFDSS should to be authorititave on this matter, the statement on their website is wishy washy, they should come down on one side or the other.
my old friend Howard Jones has hit the nail on the head.
"I am also disappointed that the EFDSS couldn't have taken a more nuanced approach and been more supportive. However it is now a branch of the Arts Industry rather than an organisation which supports folk traditions so its position on this is unsurprising."


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 04:31 PM

EFDSS is not the recognised institution when it comes to morris. There is The Morris Ring and there are other morris federations.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 05:20 PM

All of them should be giving a lead including EFDSS, Morris a form of Folk Dance, or perhaps it isnt in Hull?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 06:01 PM

The EDFSS is as much an authority on modern Morris as the RSPCA. Also you don't seem know what "nuanced" means.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:19 PM

Not sure how to put this without upsetting someone, but - is it not strange that "Asians" (not 'black') were upset, and not Africans, in such a multicultural city?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:26 PM

That thought went through my mind too.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:31 PM

Why is everyone pondering to political correctness here, this is traditional BRITISH folk let those fuckers protesting and complaining go fuck themselves.

Britain needs to reclaim it's culture, voting UKIP is a positive start folks.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:32 PM

Ah, the voice of reason. 😂😂😂


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 09:18 PM

While we are mucking about with variations on the letters PC...

That UKIP ranting GUEST [Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:31 PM]...

Primitive Cunt... 😜


In the same way he'd force immigrants on a boat or plane to back where ever they came from..

I'd suggest shoving him in a time machine and effin him off back to the 18th Century....

BTW.. thanks so much for proving my earlier point about the types of folk infesting British Folk Music...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 03:59 AM

Morris-ey, are you seriously suggesting that the English Folk Dance and Song Society should not have a view on what is probably the most popular, and certainly the most visible, form of English Folk Dance? Or that its opinion shouldn't carry weight?

I know perfectly well what "nuanced" means, and I'm disappointed the EFDSS couldn't have made a statement which acknowledges the many shades of opinion on this topic. Even if it felt unable to defend the tradition, as I personally would have hoped, it could at least have done more to explain that, whatever the controversy over its possible origins, in the modern revival blacking up has no racist intent. Instead we get a statement which can be summarised as "this looks dodgy, we want nothing to do with it". I would have expected something more from an organisation which in its own words was originally established with the aim of saving and celebrating England's traditional folk songs and dances. However it now appears to have abandoned this and has become an arts organisation - with some success, admittedly, but increasingly irrelevant to many.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 07:38 AM

Dick, the EFDSS is giving a lead on this subject - just not the one you want.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 08:18 AM

no, it is not, it is sitting on the fence, and you have made an assumption on my view of the subject.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:12 AM

I would like to see EFDSS taking their responsibilties seriously and giving a clear and unequivocal lead one way or the other


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:14 AM

Another local MP defends the Morris.
Michael Fabricant, MP for Lichfield,
"I'm a Morris dancer, I did it in Litchfield where there's a great tradition, there's absolutely no intention whatsoever to make out that you are a black person."


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:22 AM

Fabricant..??? sounds like some kind of sci fi synthetic clone / android..

Looking at his photo, and the fact he is a tory... hmmm... perhaps he is...??? 😜


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:25 AM

the EFDSS not only miss an opportunity to lead decisively, they miss an opportunity to get national publicity, likewise the morris federations, all of them too busy pussyfooting in the style of beaux of london city


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:31 AM

From Chambers (who as well as the books provide one of the most useful apps on my Androids):

Fabricant - noun (archaic) A manufacturer


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:36 AM

Guess they need shooting GSS? ;-)


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 09:49 AM

ID imposter fun and games - ignore GUEST punkfolkrocker...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 11:13 AM

has any official body said that it does cause distress and asked the morris teams to desist.

if there is genuine distress being caused, then in my my mind there is no question. the tradition should go.

as Jim said there was the same thing about wife beating and feminists. husband beating doesn't seem to get them so fired up. in a way - this was sort of overdue . The Stones had been getting grief about Under My Thumb, and Midnight Rambler since the 1960's.

its not without precedent. The Wee Cooper of Fife doesn't get many outings these days, neither do Robert Johnsons blues about giving his old lady what for.
As community and a movement we have dropped songs and practices before.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 12:20 PM

What if any distress were caused as a result of people being told, as if it were fact, that the practice was disrespectful to black people?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 12:37 PM

What if most UK citizens, whatever their colour, couldn't give a monkey's about the antics of a bunch of aging white blokes
skipping about in feathers and boot polish...???

What if a vociferous minority of political agenda driven zealots are exploiting morris
as a vehicle for stirring up media attention and racial disharmony...??? 😣


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 02:07 PM

I've just been talking about this thread with my African husband, and telling him what's being said. His view (I've posted about this before on the other thread on the subject) is that when he looks at blacked-up Morris dancers, the very last thing he would think they were impersonating is black people. They look nothing like any African on this Earth.
The first time he saw the phenomenon was at Whittlesea Straw Bear many years ago, and he was astonished to say the least. His first thought (he said afterwards) was,"What the hell are these crazy British people getting up to now? They're all mad!" (Not "How disgraceful, they're poking fun at black people!"
He's sat beside three Old Glory men (they use very black make-up indeed) and laughed, pointing out to them that if he danced with them, at least he wouldn't need any make-up. He finds the very idea of 'being offended' ridiculous. He also says that the 'objectors' are deliberately stirring up trouble for their own ends, and NOT because they're offended at all.
I just thought his views might be of interest here.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 02:47 PM

Well done Keith for dredging up two of the biggest Tory twats in the country, Fabricant and Javid, in support of your cause. Any bets on who he'll dig up for no 3, folks?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 02:50 PM

Senoufou - with you on that...

I've never been been in accord with activists, whatever their politics - left or right -
who launch into a default mode charade of outrage and offence
just for the principle of it...

.. and even more wary of over sensitive sanctimonious folks who actually do get their knickers in an almighty twist
over the slightest petty offence... 😣

It's to be expected of student militants.. you'd hope they'd mature out of it eventually..

But far too many 'important' politicians regularly make high and mighty prats of themselves on news reports and interviews....

..For me, it should all about real substantial priorities, and perspective...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,pauperback
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 02:58 PM

Sounds like a MDE (media driven event)
Create the prob, sell you the solution


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 03:30 PM

Michael Fabricant - main claim to fame is that he is the only person in the entire world with more ridiculous hair than Trump. Also there was that thing with llamas.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 05:20 PM

i notice the morris ring have a picture on their website of a blacked up border morris side.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 06:19 PM

Howard Jones and GSS:

Almost no one, in the real world, knows what the EFDSS is. So any statement from them on this issue would have no impact.

Also, the EFDSS is not going to come out in favour or otherwise of a tradition that has no cogent evidence to support its assertions as to blackface.

Whatever, as I said before, we live in a multi-cultural society in 2017 and if Border want to continue the "disguise" conceit then they need to recognise the obvious, even if mistaken, sensitivities of a multi-cultural society.

What plays well in yokel Lincolnshire won't get quite the same reception in London.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 06:43 PM

"Whatever, as I said before, we live in a multi-cultural society in 2017 and if Border want to continue the "disguise" conceit then they need to recognise the obvious, even if mistaken, sensitivities of a multi-cultural society.

What plays well in yokel Lincolnshire won't get quite the same reception in London."
1.So you inSult the people of LINCS, calling them yokels. 2 TheMorris RING seem to have come out in favour of the tradition, they have a picture on their website of blacked up welsh border morris.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 10:51 PM

Alfred Lord Tennyson, former Poet Laureate.
William Rose, designer of the world's first mechanical wrapping machinery.
Sir Halford Mackinder, 'The Father of Modern Geography'.
Sir John Franklin, Arctic explorer.
Dame Sybil Thorndike, celebrated actor.
Sir Isaac Newton, scientist and discoverer of gravity.
John Wesley, founder of The Methodist Church.
Matthew Flinders, mariner, cartographer, and first circumnavigator of Australia.
Sir Joseph Banks, naturalist and botanist.
Margaret Thatcher, politician and former Prime Minister.

Yokels?


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 11:06 PM

be fair John...there's us two, as well


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 11:12 PM

Mornin' Al - insomnia got to you too? 😎😄

Yes, you're right, but I was trying to maintain my usual aura of unassuming modesty!


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 11:50 PM

Backwoodsman - but how many of them are black or asian...???

I think this is more to the point that Morris-ey alludes to,
rather than the sarcastic way he expressed it.
Which is what Dick, and maybe yourself, are taking knee jerk exception to. ?

Please don't distract from the very valid point that provincial rural areas of UK
like Lincoln, Scrumpyshire [where I abode], Shropshire, etc are not as multi ethnically diverse or enlightened, as the great metropolis Cities...

I live in big town in my county which is becoming more multi cultural.
But only a few miles down the road are villages still predominantly white, insular, and very conservative.

However my more modern town is still festering with open resentments and blatant racism from older indigenous residents,
and the younger undereducated...

I look up to Bristol [where I was educated in the 80s] as a true multi cultural society,
yet still with it's own problems and pockets of racists.
Where I'd be fairly certain that blackface morris would be met by protesters...
whether they be white middle class students, black and / or asian activists , lefties, liberals, christians, muslims, or whatever variations and collectives..

All unified in solidarity by the shared common aim of standing up to xenophobic provocations from the nastier element of UKIP & Brexiteers
smugly revelling in victory and a new wave of hostility towards 'immigrants' and any 'alien' cultural values deemed non 'British'...

At this difficult time, blackface morris cannot be so naive, stubborn, or insensitive..
especially when transplanting their 'traditional' practices to modern city centres.....



Btw.. our local morris don't black up. and are none the less dedicated or enjoyable for lack of courting controversy...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 11:59 PM

..yeah.. and I just woke up on the sofa after nodding off watching TV 6 and a half hours ago..

just in time to put the bins out...


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 12:05 AM

PFR - I was merely pointing out that not all Yellowbellies are 'Yokels', that some (in fact, many) are well educated, cosmopolitan individuals who have made a substantial impact on the history of this country and the world at large. That's all.

The colour of their skin is immaterial in this context.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 12:07 AM

Correction - The colour of their skin is irrelevant in this context.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 12:29 AM

Point taken and understood as I was reading your list..

Us wurzels have also produced our share of outstanding historic figures.. like errrmmm.... I need to wake up a bit more..

But they are unfortunately not representative of the majority of contemporary post thatcher undereducated 'youth';
and the miserable resentful old tories that dominate my home region... 😬


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 12:37 AM

👍👍😉


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:37 AM

i'm sorry pfr - i think your stereotyping of Lincolnshire people is horrible. its the 2nd largest county in England. The towns are very diverse racially and every other way - always have been. i suppose there are small towns like Alford, Spilsby and Louth in the arse end of nowhere - nobody goes there, so fuck knows what goes on.

by and large though, i don't think we're any more insular than the people in Brum and Derby.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:37 AM

i'm sorry pfr - i think your stereotyping of Lincolnshire people is horrible. its the 2nd largest county in England. The towns are very diverse racially and every other way - always have been. i suppose there are small towns like Alford, Spilsby and Louth in the arse end of nowhere - nobody goes there, so fuck knows what goes on.

by and large though, i don't think we're any more insular than the people in Brum and Derby.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 01:49 AM

i'm in stereo!


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 02:44 AM

Backwoodsman, great list - Newton in my view equal first in the list of greatest English people (equal with Shakespeare and maybe Roger Bacon). Right up to the last on the list, you lost me there!


Regarding the subject of the post, I now think that Morris dancers should not black up, I was in two minds before. The post which convinced me was this one:


Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 17 - 07:31 PM

Scroll back and read it. If blacked up Morris dancers can in anyway be seen as justifying attitudes like this, or having the support of people with attitudes like this, then they should not do it.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 02:59 AM

Big Al - ??????

you alright mate... I've written nothing about Lincolnshire folk..?????

I was talking about my culturally stifled mean spirited lot down here in wonderful west country wurzelful Scrumpyshire....

So maybe now we can stop distracting from thread topic by getting all over sensitively defensive about our home counties..

you know.. divide and rule and all that dominant ideological ruling system malarkey.... 🙄


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:24 AM

Morris-ey, I don't expect the ordinary person in the street to have heard of the EFDSS, but anyone trying to make up their own minds will come across it soon enough. As the oldest body in this country concerned with folk dance and song, its statements on these topics do carry weight.

I do not expect EFDSS to give a definitive ruling on blacking up (I will not use the loaded term blackface, which has a specific meaning related to minstrelsy). There is very little hard historical evidence to go on, and people can only make their own minds up as best they can from this limited evidence. Unsurprisingly they come to different conclusions, but these are only opinions, and no one knows the real truth of the matter. I don't expect EFDSS to untangle this, or for it to be any more capable of finding the real answer than anyone else.

However, to repeat what I said earlier, I would have expected an organisation formed to preserve and celebrate English folk music and dance, to have explained this in more detail than it has. I would also have expected it to explain that the Border (and Molly) revivals retained blacking up because it was a distinctive and striking characteristic of the original traditions, and in the belief that it was done for disguise, although this belief is now being challenged.

Had it done this I would have more respect for its own position, which would then show respect for (or at least acknowledgement of) the original tradition while being bold enough to change to reflect a different society. Instead the statement it has issued gives me the impression that it is embarrassed by the whole thing and wants to wash its hand of the nasty business as quickly as possible.


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 04:35 AM

The issue is by and large a load of twaddle ~ racist connotations clearly in the minds only of non folkies who have made wrong conclusions regarding the black and white minstrels ~ the only concessions that COULD be made (though I think should not) is colour change to say blue or red, or partial "blacking"

What a load of idiots who are simply as said by me earlier displaying the usual traits of football "fans" on match days expressing their frustations on owt they don't follow or is different to their "senses"

Ray

The Brittania Coconutters are a National Institution for example and long may they sup their beer, dance and perform and black up


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 05:07 AM

padgett - Well you can say all that in such a dismissive manner...

But aren't 'non folkies' a significant majority of the UK population...???

...that's by your reckoning a hell of a lot of idiots..

Idiots who by sheer numbers hold a lot more sway, with media, public opinion leaders, and public policy legislators...


A damn sight more than the slither of 'majority' that won Brexit... 😜


This is why it's essential for survival of BlackUp / Face morris and Coconutters, that the care-holders of these traditions
present and explain themselves to a wider public in a far more intelligent and considerate manner..

Arrogance, insensitivity and a superiority complex will lead to their downfall.....????


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 05:29 AM

The EFDSS statement in the Winter 2016 EDS contains a useful reading list, for anyone who wants to check the facts. The one thing that all the authors are agreed on is that there is no evidence of blacking up in border morris before the minstrelsy period (which starts in 1836).


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Subject: RE: blacked up morris dancers abused in uk
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 05:49 AM

This is why it's essential for survival of BlackUp / Face morris and Coconutters, that the care-holders of these traditions
present and explain themselves to a wider public in a far more intelligent and considerate manner.


Yes, but it's hardly the biggest challenge to achieving a happy multicultural society. Their are others that can't be explained in a couple of sentences.

Soft target (e.g. without funds to meet a legal challenge) for activists wanting something to activate about I reckon.

Something easier - is there any evidence for Morris dancers refering to it as 'blackface'? If not is doing so in this debate ignorance or activism.


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