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Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III
Related threads:
Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART IV (91)
Origins: Died for Love: Sources: PART II (124) (closed)
Origins: Died for Love: Sources and variants (125) (closed)
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Subject: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 18 Feb 17 - 02:51 PM
-Joe Offer-
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 18 Feb 17 - 03:27 PM Hi, I'd like to find any UK versions that are not Died For Love that have the "Careless Love" text. The following may better explain the ballad and what I need as a UK example--here's an excerpt from my headnotes: [This famous song has been adapted by a number of singers of different genres (folk, blues, jazz, country, pop) of music in the US and abroad. The song is identified by this stanza which is sometimes used as its chorus: Love, oh love, oh careless love, Love, oh love, oh careless love, Love, oh love, oh careless love, Oh look what careless love has done. Although a number of floating stanzas have been attached to Careless Love and in some versions its identifying stanza and theme have been lost, this song/ballad was either derived from or is similar to "The Died for Love Songs" and in particular the "apron" stanzas relating to the maid's pregnancy as found in the "Brisk Young Lover," "Alehouse" and "I Wish, I Wish" songs. It's clear "what careless love has done." The maid is pregnant and bewails her pregnant condition. If she'd have listened to what mama said, she would be sleeping in Mama's bed[]. Instead she must face the stigma associated with being an unwed mother- not a happy proposition either in Scotland or rural Appalachia. As in the Died for Love songs she faces the prospect of being abandoned. Here's a stanza sung by Miss Grace Hahn, Fayetteville, Arkansas, 1941[]: Go hand me down my old valise, And bundle up my dirty clothes, And if my momma asks about me Just tell her I'm sleeping out of doors. Many of the standard Careless Love stanzas directly correspond to those found in the Died for Love songs. It's already clear that the "apron" stanzas are related. Now consider these other stanza from Mrs. Lillian Short, Galena, MO, 1942: Ain't this enough to break my heart, (3 times) To see my man with another sweetheart? [He takes another girl on his knee] Now my money's spent and gone (3 times) [She has more gold than I] You pass my door a-singing a song. Oh I love my mamma and my papa too (3 times) [I'd leave my mother, I'd leave my father] But I'd leave them both and go with you. Naturally, different blues type lyrics have become attached to Careless Love that are not part of the fundamental song. By the 1920s the stanzas about pregnancy were being replaced and other floating stanzas were added: I wish that eastbound train would run I wish that eastbound train would run I wish that eastbound train would run And carry me back where I come from Times ain't like they used to be Times ain't like they used to be Times ain't like they used to be Carry me back to Tennessee. This is especially true of many of the early country texts by Riley Puckett and others. The song then becomes a song with the Careless Love stanza and floating "blues" or "abandonment" type lyrics. Even more confusing is when the floating lyrics are from other similar songs as in this stanza from Perrow (MS of 1909, Mississippi Whites): I'm going to leave you now; I'm going ten thousand miles. If I go ten million more, I'll come back to my sweetheart again. These lyrics are from "Ten Thousand Miles" a different song, with a similar sentiment. Careless Love is listed as Roud 422 and unfortunately a number of different songs are also part of Roud 422. This is not a lament about "turtle doves" or "lonesome doves" leaving their mate or about a lover "leaving and going away." Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 18 Feb 17 - 04:41 PM Hi, Aunt Molly Jackson of Kentucky obviously thought these two songs were woven from the same cloth. In the 1930s Jackson sang the words to "Butcher's Boy" with the melody of "Careless Love" which was recorded by Lomax. Listen: https://lomaxky.omeka.net/items/show/59 Each two lines of Jackson's "Butcher Boy" makes a stanza- so it takes twice as long to sing!!! The following stanzas are similar to the Appalachian lyrics my female singer sang in my bluegrass group in the early 1990s: Careless Love Love, oh love, my careless love, Love, oh love, my careless love. Love, oh love, oh careless love, Oh look what careless love has done. Once I wore my apron low, Once I wore my apron low. Once I wore my apron low, I could not keep you from my door. Now my apron strings won't pin, Now my apron strings won't pin. Now my apron strings won't pin, You pass my door and won't come in. I love my mama and papa, too, I love my mama and papa, too. I love my mama and papa, too, I'd leave them just to go with you. When I die, don't bury me deep; When I die, don't bury me deep, When I die, don't bury me deep, Place a marble rock at my head and feet. Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove, Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove, Upon my breast, place a lily-white dove, For to show to the world I died for love. We also did a version with floating lyrics that I sang with, Sorrow, sorrow to my heart (3X) Since I and my true love did part. Oh I wish that train would come (3X) And carry me back where I come from. , &etc. with Careless love as first verse and chorus. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 18 Feb 17 - 06:54 PM Hi, Lastly-- I'll be adding to my headnotes of Careless Love before moving on. Here is a link http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7l-careless-love.aspx to the rough draft with a close-up of a painting I did of Careless Love about 10 years ago-- it depicts a young pregnant girl standing in the doorway on the porch of a cabin in Appalachia. Before her is a large hound dog sleeping and beside her is her father-- whittling. Her lover, who just passes by but doesn't stop in, is confronted by her mother who stands on the porch-- waving a shotgun! The close-up is poor resolution so it looks fuzzy but you get the point. There are other scenes in the full-view of the painting but they are hidden- I've done about 36 song paintings which can be viewed here: http://mattesonart.com/careless-love.aspx Several of the paintings are displayed at the KY Music Hall-of-Fame. Comments and different versions are welcome. Anything that can relate the identifying stanza Love, oh love, oh careless love, Love, oh love, oh careless love, Love, oh love, oh careless love, Oh look what careless love has done. to a version in the UK would be appreciated, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 18 Feb 17 - 07:50 PM Hi, Great news!!! I finally got the Leach ballad, Beam of Oak. His book, "Folk Ballads and Songs of the Lower Labrador Coast" (by MacEdward Leach) came in the mail today. Beam of Oak was mentioned in the Died for Love first thread (see link above- closed thread). It is an excellent traditional version of B, similar to the broadside-- "Cruel Father or Deceived Maid." This is one of only three extant traditional versions that are reasonably close to the original. Beam of Oak - Sung by Stuart Letto of Lance au Clair, Labrador in July, 1960. 1. A farmer's daughter, you may understand, She fell in love with a servant man. And when her father came this to hear, He separated her from her dear. 2. We haven't been scarce three days at sea, When they fell into a bloody fray. It was this young man's lot to fall; He lost his life by a cannon ball. 3. Scarce three days after, this young man was seen; His deathly ghost to her father came, With his deadly wounds by his bedside stood, With his arms and shoulders all covered with blood. 4. So when this lady came this to hear, How she had lost her own true dear, That very night to the beam of oak She hung herself with her own bed rope. 5. Her father he came home late that night, Inquiring for his own heart's delight, He went upstairs and the door he broke; He found her hanging to the beam of oak. 6. The servants, they all gathered round, All for to cut this fair maiden down, And in her bosom there was concealed A written note of true loves revealed. 7. It was wrote with blood by a woman's hand. She wrote these words, as you may understand. Saying, "Father father the worst of men, Twas you that brought me to this untimely end. 8. "You sent my Willie away from me, Which caused my ruin and his destiny." Her father, he did speechless remain, And the tears ran down his cheeks like rain. 9. Her father, so we are told, went mad; Her mother being almost as bad; May this sad tale now a warning be Of this sad, doleful sad, tragedy. This is the title of The Traditional Ballad Index entry which gives Roud 18830 as the Roud number. According to Steve Gardham, Roud 18830 is Rambling Boy, a different ballad with the same ending (suicide). If you look at Roud 18830 only two versions are Cruel Father (Beam of Oak and Rambling Boy- the cowboy song of c. 1916). Apparently Rambling Boy and Cruel Father have not been separated yet, or some confusion exists, which is typical of the Died for Love ballads. As far as I know, I have every version of "Cruel Father"-- all 19 versions-- except most of them are very corrupt. If you remember in the Died for Love II thread (link above- closed) I posted an old Hicks/Harmon version from Rebecca Harmon that could date back to the 1700s in Virginia. Harmon's version is typical of most US versions- it's very corrupt. There is not actually a Roud number for Beam of Oak (assuming Roud 18830 is Rambling Boy) but Steve Gardham told me to use Roud 23272. So I'm petitioning the brilliant Steves (Gardham and Roud) to get this str8ened out!!!! The "beam of oak" is what the daughter ties the rope upon which she uses to hang herself. The suicide by hanging and the similar opening is what ties this variant to Rambling Boy and some other Died for Love songs. The suicide, for example, is also found in Foolish Young Girl. The plot of Cruel Father is this: A father finds out his daughter has fallen in love with an apprentice and presses the young man to become a sailor aboard a man-o'-war. Soon after going to sea, the sailor is killed in battle by a cannonball. That very night the sailor's ghost haunts the father. Shortly thereafter the father comes home and finds his daughter "hanging from a rope." After he cuts her down he finds a note on her breast calling him the worst of all men. Only the Queen of Hearts shares this plot, but in the Queen of Hearts the plot is only two stanzas added at the end- as an afterthought. It seems possible that Cruel Father is the progenitor of the Rambling Boy which is the same ballad without a distinct plot and uses floating Died for Love stanzas. In Rambling Boy the girl's suicide is the result of her unrequited love. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 18 Feb 17 - 08:41 PM Hi, The only other variant that could possibly be related, is this odd version found in "Folksongs of Florida," Morris, 1950. Morris identifies this as a variant of "Butcher Boy" by the melody and a few related stanzas. Mrs. G. A. Griffin, an outstanding informant for both Morris and Lomax, was born in 1863 in Georgia. By the time she was thirteen she learned the bulk of her older ballads from her father, John Hart, who was a fiddler. This is therefore dated pre-1877 -- the date when she left her father and moved to Florida. In my opinion this too is an unusual rendition of the "Cruel Father" (see last post) sung from the man's point of view. The plot would be similar: When the lovers were discovered her father presses the young man to sea where he must spend his "wretched life" with out his lover. He utters the famous Died for Love ending. Suddenly, he is visited by his true love (this could be a dream sequence or it has simply turned into a "night visit" ballad and he is a ghost). He pledges, "I love her now until I die." This is all speculative. Since the song by its melody and text is placed as a version of Butcher Boy by Morris and it has the cannonball reference, it makes some sense. Morris says that the song has, "an existence of its own," however, he doesn't have an idea what that could be. 67. BETSY, MY DARLING GIRL (Archive 956-81). "Betsy, My Darling Girl." Recorded on March 19, 1937, from the singing of Mrs. G. A. Griffin, Newberry, Florida, learned from her father in Georgia by 1877-- with music. 1. I'm going up yonder to yonders town, Where the cannon balls flash round and round, And there I'll spend my days and years My weeks, my months, my wretched life. 2. I called for a chair to seat myself upon, And a pen and ink to write her name down, And every line I shed a tear For Betsy, O Betsy, my darling girl. 3. So dig my grave both steep and deep, And marble stones at my head and feet, And on my breast put a snow white dove To show the world I died for love. 4. Who's at my gate, that darling girl? Who's at my gate, that darling girl? Who's at my gate, my own true love? I love her now until I die. 5. Come in, my own true love, Come in, come my darling girl; Come in, come my own true love, For I love you now until I die. 6. O give to me your lily-white hand, O give to me both your heart and hand. She gave to me her lily-white hand, For I love her now until I die. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 19 Feb 17 - 05:01 PM Hi, Moving on to other related songs/ballads. We haven't covered Sailor Boy or Sweet William which borrows from Died for Love and other songs. One other song is "The Colour of Amber." A similar stanza is also known famously as "Black is the Color/Colour." A single version of three stanzas (with one Died for Love stanza) was collected in the UK by Mike Yates in 1974. A number of Newfoundland versions use the title which are unique variants of Sailor Boy (divergent plot some similar stanzas): The Colour Of Amber (MacEdward Leach) Oh, the colour of amber is my love's hair, And her rosy cheeks do my heart ensnare; Her ruby lips so meek and mild, Ofttimes have pressed them to those of mine. and here's a stanza from NC collected by Sharp from William Wells: 2 Yellow was the colour of my true love's hair, Cheeks was like a lily fair. If he returns it'll give me joy; Never love any but a sweet soldier boy. This 1916 version is a variant of Sweet William. The question is: should these be part of the ballads related to Died for Love? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 19 Feb 17 - 05:32 PM Hi, To consider which to include, let's look at both. Roud lumps them - he gives both versions, Mary Ann Haynes UK version and the Newfoundland versions as Roud 1716 when they are different songs that share a similar first stanza. "The Colour of Amber" sung by Mary Ann Haynes in 1974 (on Voice 11): Oh, the colour of amber was my love's hair, And his two blue eyes they enticed me, And his ruby lips, they being soft and fine, Oh, many a time they've been pressed to mine. Oh, I'll go a-fishing in yonder's brook There I'll catch my love with a line and a hook, And if he loves me, oh, like I love him, No man on earth shall part us two. Now, I wish, I wish, now this is all in vain. Oh, I wish to God I was a maiden again. Oh, a maid again I shall never more be, Whilst apples growed on a orange tree. This has one stanza of Died for Love and the first stanza is found similarly in a relative- Sailor Boy. here's one of several Newfoundland versions. The Colour Of Amber- Collected in 1951 from Nicholas (Nick) Davis of St Shott's, NL, by MacEdward Leach. This is a variant of "Early, Early in the Spring" which is Laws M1, Roud #152: Oh, the colour of amber is my love's hair, And her rosy cheeks do my heart ensnare; Her ruby lips so meek and mild, Ofttimes have pressed them to those of mine. As I sailed down the London Shore, Where the loud cannon balls they roar, In the midst of danger ofttimes I've been, Ofttimes I have thought on you, Mary Green. As I sailed down the London Shore, I kept writing letters o'er and o'er; I kept writing letters to you, my dear, Out of all of them I received but one. If you wrote letters back to this town, Out of all of them I received but one; You're false, oh, false love is none of mine, Don't speak so hard of a sailmaker. Straightway I went to her father's house, And it's on this fair maid I did call; Her father spoke me this reply, Sayin', daughter dear, don't you love the boy. I asked this father what he did mean, Or would his daughter married be, To some other young man to be a wife, For I will go farther and take a life. Now since my love has a man received, A single life I will still remain; I will plough the seas till the day I die, I will split the waves till 'neath them I lie. Very different songs with a similar first stanza. The Newfoundland version, a variant of "Early, Early in the Spring" which is Laws M1, Roud #152, is curiously similar to the Georgia version "Betsy, My Darling Girl"-- which is one thing that attracted me to the song. Although "The Colour of Amber" (Black is the Colour) stanza with variation appears in some versions of Sailor Boy, the Newfoundland ballad, "The Colour of Amber" has a different plot. See: "Early, Early in the Spring" Laws M1, Roud #152 for details. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 20 Feb 17 - 11:41 AM Hi, I started the headnotes of Sailor Boy/Sweet William but left them, here's a link: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7a-the-sailor-boy-or-sweet-william.aspx The Died for Love stanzas are found only in traditional versions. Here are two good examples from the UK in the late 1800s: Sweet William- Collected by Lucy Broadwood from Mrs Harley, Bewdley, 1893 O father, father, build me a boat, That on this wild ocean I may float, And every ship that I chance to meet I will enquire for my William sweet. I had not sailed more than half an hour, Before I met with a man on board (man of war?) "Kind captain, captain, come tell me true, Is my sweet William on board with you?" "Oh no, fine lady, he is not here, That he is drown-ed most breaks my fear, For the other night when the wind blew high That's when you lost your sweet sailor boy." I'll set me down, and I write a song, I'll write it neat, and I'll write it long, And at every word I will drop a tear, And in every line I'll set my Willie dear. I wish, I wish, but it's all in vain, I wish I was a sweet maid again, But a maid, a maid I never shall be Till apples grow on an orange tree. For a maid, a maid, I shall never be, Till apples grow on an orange tree. * * * * "Early, Early All in the Spring." Sung by Mrs Hollings, originally from Lincolnshire (c.1870?); collected by Frank Kidson; published in JFSS, 2 (1906), 293–4. Early, early all in the spring, My love was press'd to serve the King ; The wind blew high and the wind blew low, And parted me and my young sailor boy. "O father, father, make me a boat, That on the ocean I may float, And every [French, fresh, king's] ship as I pass by, I will enquire for my sailor boy." She had not sailed far across the deep, Before five king's ships she chanced to meet, "Come, jolly sailors, come tell me true— Does my love sail in along with you?" "What clothes does your true love wear? What colour is your true love's hair?" "A blue silk jacket, all bound with twine; His hair is not the colour of mine." "Oh no fair lady, your love's not here— He has got drown'd, I greatly fear; For on yon ocean as we passed by, 'Twas there we lost a young sailor-boy." She wrung her hands, and tore her hair, Like some lady in deep despair, Saying "Happy, happy is the girl," she cried, "Has got a true love down by her side." She set her down and wrote a song— She wrote it wide, she wrote it long; At every line she shed a tear, And at every verse she said "My dear." When her dear father came home that night, He called for his heart's delight; He went upstairs, the door he broke, He found her hanging by a rope. He took a knife and cut her down; Within her bosom a note was found, And in this letter these words were wrote: "Father, dear father, my heart is broke. Father, dear father, dig me a grave— Dig it wide and dig it deep; And in the middle put a lily-white dove, That the world may know I died for love." * * * * The broadsides and Christie's "Sailing Trade" have no stanzas in common with Died for Love songs. Here's a short list of broadsides-- maybe Steve Gardham can add to this and provide an early print date: 1. Sailor Boy ("Down by a crystal river side") printed by Pitts c. 1820. 2. Sailor Boy and his Faithful Mary ("A sailor's life is a merry life") printed J. Harkness, printer, Preston: Printed at 121, Church-street; between 1840 and 1866 and also by Pitts. 3. A New Song call'd the Young Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her True Love ("'Tis early, early all in the Spring") printed c.1867 by P. Brereton, 1, Lower Exchange St., Dublin. 4. The Sailor Boy and his Faithful Nancy, a Catnach broadside--Harvard College, 25242.17, vii, 198. 5. The Young Lady's Lamentation for the Loss of her True Love ("'Tis early, early all in the Spring") printed by James Guthrie, Illustrated by Jack Yeats, 1909 County Dublin. The "Colour of Amber" or "Black is the Colour" stanza is the maid's response to the question 'What did her sailor boy look like?' (see 4th stanza of "Early, Early" above) after she hails a ship in search of her sailor boy. The other stanza in common with Died for Love that's not as obvious is the "writing a letter/note (or song)" stanza which the maid does after she learns her sailor boy has drowned. This is similar to the writing of the note by the maid before she hangs herself in the Died for Love songs such as Cruel Father, Rambling Boy, Butcher Boy and Maiden's Prayer. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 01:10 PM Hi Richie, You will probably know from your many Child Ballads you have studied that the letter writing motif is extremely common in both Child Ballads and broadside ballads. It should not be taken as an indicator of borrowing or relation unless there is more text in common. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:01 PM Hi Steve, glad you're back. In this case its the position of "letter writing" stanza in the ballad (before she dies) that creates a commonality. A number of writers including Malcom Douglas (on Mudcat) have pointed out this 'letter writing' stanza as a common stanza between Died for Love and Sailor Boy. I guess it seemed obvious to me. Do you want further evidence? Steve, do you have any early broadsides of Sailor Boy not listed by me? Are there any Sailor Boy broadsides with stanzas of Died for Love? By the way I created a study of "The Colour of Amber" on my site: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7m-the-coulor-of-amber.aspx It will include the Sailor Boy/Black is the Colour relationships as well as the two different songs titled "Colour of Amber". Still plugging away, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:24 PM Have you got the Mississippi 1909 version of Careless Love from JAFL? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:37 PM Do you have this unique piece from the Gardiner manuscripts? Through Lonesome Woods (Roud 3461) On the EFDSS website it is ref. GG/1/20/1304 The last line of st 1 and all of st 2 are from the alehouse stanza, and stanza 3 appears to be an echo of stanza 3 in 'She's Like the Swallow'. The rest seems to be unique, unless you can trace any of it. To me it looks like a garbled made up piece from half remembered fragments. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:45 PM In all of my searches through collections I have never come across anything in the British Isles that relates to the Careless Love stanza. I was singing this song back in the early 60s before I became fully immersed in English trad song so I would have spotted anything had I seen it and noted it down. Personally I would treat Peggy's comments in the same vein as Bert's or Ewan's. Peggy was interested in singers and immediate sources but not really histories to the extent that we are. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:13 PM Hi Steve, I couldn't find any UK versions of Careless Love either, Steve. I do have Kelly's Love by Odum but it's in 1911 JAF- is that the version? I'll check out the Gardiner. TY. Here's a version of Sailor Boy named Black is the Color: BLACK IS THE COLOR- sung by a Missouri woman with a guitar; from a field recording in the possession of the late Bil Godsey, Champaign, Illinois before late 1950s Chorus: Black, black is the color of my true love's hair, His face is like some lily fair. If ever he returns it will give me great joy, For none can I love but my sweet sailor boy. Oh Ma, oh Mother, go build me a boat That I may on the ocean float, And call to the ships as they pass by, Tell me, pray, have you seen my sweet sailor boy. She built her a boat on the deep, deep main, And she spied three ships come out from Spain, And she called to the captain as they passed by, Tell me, pray, have you seen my sweet sailor boy? Chorus. "Oh no," said the captain, "That never can be, "For your love was drowned in the deep salt sea, "There off Rock Island as we passed by, "It was there that we lost your sweet sailor boy." She stove her boat into the rocks, And I thought that the poor lady's heart was broke. She wrung her hands and she tore her hair Just like someone in deep despair. Chorus. Go dig me a grave both wide and deep, Place a marble slab at my head and feet, And on my breast place a mourning dove To show to the world I died for love. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 03:49 PM The JAFL version is from an article 'Songs and Rhymes from the South' by Perrow. p147 No3. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 04:18 PM Sweet William/The Sailor Boy (Roud 273). The earliest I have appears to be the Goggin of Limerick starting 'It was early in spring' of about 1780 but there seems to have been a variety of versions by c1800. Here's a summary of broadside versions I have access to. The Sailor Boy/The Sailing Trade usually with 9 sts later 8, fl 'The sailing trade is a weary life/trade', Robertson printed it in 1801 and there is a version in Ashton's 'Real Sailor Songs' p63, Johnston, Falkirk also printed it about the same time. In 1817 Hutchinson of Glasgow. The Sailor Boy, Goggin, with 7 sts 'It was early in Spring' Brereton's you have and then a 9 sts version with no imprint 'The Constant Lover and her Salior Boy' 'Early early all in the spring' (Irish) Sailor Boy/ The Maid's Lament for her Sailor Boy fl, 'Down by a chrystal riverside' 7 sts as you have it, printed by Evans, Pitts and Catnach. Then the later Harkness which you have with 8 sts. I'll check the Goggin but I think you have versions of all the others. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 04:34 PM Before you ask here's Goggin. It was early in Spring I went on board to serve the King, The raging seas and the winds blew high, That parted me and my sailor boy. I wish I had a little boat That o'er the Ocean I might float, To watch the French as I pass by, Inquiring for my Sailor boy. We had not Sailed but an hour or two When she beheld the whole ships crew. My whole ships crew tell unto me If my sweet William is on board with thee. Your sweet William he don't sail hear And for his loss we greatly fear. On yon green Island as we passed by It's there we lost your young sailor Boy. She wrung her hands and she tore her hair, Like a fair maiden in deep despair, her boat she flung against the rocks Crying what shall I do since my true love's lost. I'll tell my dream to the hills high; And all the small birds as they fly, Ah, happy, happy is the girl she cried, That has her true-love by her side. Come all ye seamen now dress in blue And all you ladies dress in the same, From the Cabbin boy to the main mast high, And mourn in black for my sailor boy. I don't recognise the first 2 lines of stanza 6 and any of stanza 7. The whole definitely smacks of having been taken from oral tradition. There is a very strong likelihood of earlier printings going back at least to about 1770. There is absolutely nothing to suggest the original was Irish. When I get time I'll do a mini study of all the broadsides, but I need to have a much more detailed look at the 2 Rambling Boy pieces first. Could you please let me have a copy of the 'The Rambling Boy and Answer'? My Robertson copy is difficult to decipher in places |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:27 PM Hi, I do have the Perrow version and the three JAF articles he wrote on my site. After Perrow left Harvard he eventually ended up teaching in Missouri, then Mississippi (in 1909) then to Louisville, KY where he taught English. 3. CARELESS LOVE (From Mississippi; country whites; MS. of R. J. Slay; 1909.) I'm going to leave you now; I'm going ten thousand miles. If I go ten million more, I'll come back to my sweetheart again. Love, oh, love! 'tis careless love {twice) You have broken the heart of many a poor boy, But you will never break this heart of mine.* I cried last night when I come home {twice) I cried last night and night before; I'll cry to-night; then I'll cry no more. Who will shoe your pretty feet? And who will glove your hand? Who will kiss your red rosy cheeks? When I am in that far-off land? "Pa will shoe my pretty little feet; Ma will glove my hand; You may kiss my red rosy cheeks, When you come from that far-off land." This has a "True Lover's Farewell" stanza also in "Lonesome Dove"/"Ten Thousand Miles" and the floaters from Child 76 "Who will Shoe" which are also found in "My Blue Eyed Boy" variants. But this is not Child 76 :) Thanks for the Sailor Boy broadsides, I knew to ck Robertson site but I hadn't yet. My earliest was the Pitts c. 1820. Still don't see any Died for Love stanzas from print. The Ashton 'Real Sailor Songs' has this stanza: The colour of amber is my true love's hair, His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare, His ruby lips are soft, and with charms, I'd fain lay a night in his lovely arms. which is floating stanza related to the Black is the Color ballads. I still suspect Niles got his version from Sharp who collected it in 1916 and published it the next year. I have a link to Roberston's "Rambling Boy with the answer"-- there are two editions online 1799 or 1803 and another by a different publisher that's online (pdf) as well (early 1800s). I haven't see the US versions from the early 1800s. I can email a jpeg or give a link, let me know, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:38 PM A link will be fine thanks, Richie. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:44 PM Hi, Steve and all, here's a link to Rambling Boy with the Answer: http://digital.nls.uk/chapbooks-printed-in-scotland/pageturner.cfm?id=108856194&mode=fullsize This is a fairly clean copy. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:52 PM Thanks, Richie. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 20 Feb 17 - 09:19 PM Hi, I assume this is the earliest broadside of The Sailing Trade, a similar text with tune was given by Christie in 1876. This may be the first print with the "colour of amber" stanza. From "Four Excellent New Songs," Edinburgh. Printed by J. Morren about 1800. The Sailing Trade. THE sailing trade is a weary trade; It's rob'd me of my heart's delight, And left me here in tears to mourn, Still waiting for my love's return. Like one distracted this fair maid ran, For pen and paper to write a song: And at every line[1] she dropt a tear, Crying, Alas! for my Billy dear. Thousands, thousands all in a room. My love he carries the brightest bloom; He surely is some chosen one, I will have him, or I'll have none. The grass does grow on every lea, The leaf doth fall from every tree; How happy that small bird doth cry, That[2] has her true love buy her lie. The colour of amber is my true love's hair, His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare, His ruby lips are soft, and with charms, I've lain many a night in his lovely arms. Father, father, build me a boat, That on the ocean I may float; And at every ship that doth pass by, I may enquire for my sailor boy. She had not sail'd long on the deep, Till a man of war she chanc'd to meet, O sailor, send send me word. If my true love Will be on board. Your true love William is not here, For he is kill'd and so I fear; For the other day as we pass'd[3] by, We seed him list in the Victory, At the first ship that she did meet, She did enquire for her Willie sweet; They told her that just the other day, They had lost a brave young sailor boy. She wrung her hands and tore her hair, Crying alas! my dearest dear, And over board her body threw, Bidding all worldly things adieu! FINIS. 1. in this line "at" was misplaced. 2. spelled "Taht" 3. spelled "pase'd" |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Feb 17 - 10:53 AM That's a stanza longer than all the versions I have. Thanks for that, Richie, and for the heads up on the Scottish garlands. Gonna be busy for a few days going through these. The extra verse is the penultimate one here. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 12:49 PM Hi, This is the "colour of Amber stanza" from the 1800 "Sailing Trade" that is the 1st stanza and identifying stanza in "Black is the Colour" as well as Mary Ann Haynes ballad collected by Mike Yates in 1974: The colour of amber is my true love's hair, His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare, His ruby lips are soft, and with charms, I've lain many a night in his lovely arms. If you'll notice the last line is corrupt in later editions including Ashton's "Real Sailor Songs" of 1891: The colour of amber is my true love's hair, His red rosy cheeks doth my heart ensnare, His ruby lips are soft, and with charms, I'd fain lay a night in his lovely arms. * * * * Here's the stanza is "The Colour Of Amber" (variant of Early, Early in the Spring--Laws M1 Roud #152) collected in 1951 from Nicholas (Nick) Davis of St Shott's, NL, by MacEdward Leach. Oh, the colour of amber is my love's hair, And her rosy cheeks do my heart ensnare; Her ruby lips so meek and mild, Ofttimes have pressed them to those of mine. Here's the stanza (2nd stanza- I've given three stanzas) in a West Virginia version of Sailor Boy about 1901: Way down on Moment's River side The wind blew fair with gentle guide; A pretty maid that sat and mourned; "What shall I do? My true love's gone. "His rosy cheeks, his coal-black hair, Has drawn my heart all in a snare; His ruby lips so soft and fine, Ten thousand times I've thrust in mine. "And if ten thousand were in a row, My love would make the brightest show, The brightest show of every one; I'll have my love or I'll have none. You'll notice the first stanza is from "Constant Lady" 1686 and is later used in the 1820 Pitts broadside-- it's "crystal river side" in 1686. And last, here's the stanza collected by Cecil Sharp from Lizzie Roberts in North Carolina in 1916: But black is the color of my true love's hair, Her face is like some rosy fair. The prettiest face and the neatest hands, I love the ground whereon he stands. * * * * The oldest US version I've found is an MS from a soldier's diary from the Civil War. His name is William H. Landbeth and he was in Shelby's force in Missouri about 1864: Heart-Rending Boat Ballad 1. father father bild Me a Boat and pot it on the oason that I may float her father was welthy he bilt her a Boat an pot it on the oason that She Mite float She Stopte on the Boat She eride out Goy Now ll find my sweet salar Boy. 2. She handent Bin Snilcn far on the Main She Spide three Ships come in from Spain She hailed each captain as ho drew ni An of him She did in quire of her swee Salar Boy. 3. Capttain Captain tell mo trew if my sweet william is in your crew Il tell you far lady II tell you My Dear your Sweet William is not hoar. 4. At the head of rockeyilent as we past By Will was taken Sick an tharo did die She stove her boat a gains a rock I thaut in my Soal her heart was Break She rong her band She toar her hair Jest like a lady in dis pair. 5. go bring me a Cher for to set on a pen and ink for to set it down at the end or ever line she dropt a tire at the end of ever virs it was o My dire. 6. go dig my grave booth Wide an deep poot a marvel Stone at ray head an feet an on my breast you may corv a dove too let the world no that I dido for love. * * * * Now I don't feel so bad about my spelling and typing :) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Feb 17 - 01:01 PM Some versions of Sailor Boy are so different that they have no stanzas in common which usually means an early substantial rewrite. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 03:23 PM Hi, As I pointed out- and this is still bewildering-- all print versions of Sailor Boy/Sweet William have no stanzas in common with the Died for Love songs. The "colour of amber" stanza is common to the four songs I outlined in the last post but is a tangent. The only possible exception is the "For pen and paper to write a song" which is really a floater (as Steve pointed out) unless placed after she discovers her sailor boy is dead (missing) and before her suicide-- then it's a suicide note/song. It's still a weak connection. However, traditional versions of Sailor Boy/Sweet William almost all have stanzas of Died for Love and several have the hanging suicide which means they are related to the Cruel Father/Rambling Boy/Butcher Boy/Maiden's Prayer group. As pointed out in JFSS and other publications, similar melodies are used for both. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Feb 17 - 06:10 PM Commonplaces can and frequently do consist of groups of stanzas, e.g, the page boy messages in Child Ballads. The suicide sequence in all these songs is also of that type. In most cases many of the stanzas should be considered commonplaces. That doesn't stop us looking for relationships and probable evolutionary routes though. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 08:09 PM Hi, This is a simple explanation: the Died for Love ballads are similar in style, melody and theme to Sailor Boy/Sweet William. [A maid falls in love, is separated from her love, searches for him, finds he's dead and kills herself.] While singers were blending the two ballads, printers kept printing the same stock broadsides-- not taking tradition into account. Still it seems odd that a version with the added Died for Love stanzas was not printed. The ballad was popular in North America and UK and a number of traditional versions in the US date back to mid-1800s-- so it's been here long before that. Unlike the Butcher Boy, its cousin, no prints were made in the US. I'm posting this excellent version from Jim Cleveland of Brant Lake, New York collected by Gwilym Davies in 1998. Jim is the oldest son of Sara Cleveland (1905-1992) one of the outstanding ballad singers in the US. She got her repertoire from her Irish/Scottish family and local singers. Butcher Boy-- sung by Jim Cleveland (b. 1924) of Brant Lake, New York about 14 February, 1998. 1. In Dublin City, where I did dwell A butcher boy I loved full well, He courted me, both night and day, But with me now he will not stay. 2. When my apron was hanging low My love would follow through rain or snow But now my apron is to my knees He'll pass me by as he knew not me. 3. Oh mother dear I feel so bad I sometimes think I shall go mad; O daughter dear do not grieve so, For life is filled with pain and woe. 4. She went upstairs to make her bed, And nothing to her mother said, Her father came and the door he broke He found her hanging to a rope. 5. He took his knife and cut her down And on her bosom these words he found: A foolish girl, I know am I To hang myself for a butcher boy. 6. Must I go bound while he goes free, Must I love a boy who won't love me? Or must I live my life in shame, And raise a child without a name? 7. Go dig my grave both wide and deep, Place marble stones at my head and feet. And on my breast lay a turtle dove To show the world that I died for love. The setting is Dublin and the "full well" in the second line place it in the UK as an old version. Although short, it's missing nothing and the sixth stanza is very powerful and heart-breaking. This was one of Jim's best ballads. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 10:31 PM Hi, Here's a version mentioned by Steve that is Roud 3461. It's sung from the male perspective and is clearly related although only one stanza is in common, stanza 2. There's one US ballad related to Died for Love from an unknown source usually sung from the male perspective, I'll introduce it later. Dibden Town in stanza 2 is probably "Dibden Purlieu" is a village situated on the edge of the New Forest in Hampshire. Stanza 3 seems like it was plucked from "The Soldier's Return." The last stanzas have the feeling of the end of "Trees They Do Grow High" with life's passing of time. Through Lonesome Woods- sung by Henry Perkes of Cadnam, Hampshire on October 20, 1908. Collected by Gardiner. 1. Through lonesome woods I took my way, So dark, so dark, as dark can be. Where leaves were shivering on every tree Which don't you think 'twas grief to me. 2. As I was going up Dibden town I saw my true love a-sitting down. I saw her sitting on another man's knee, Which don't you think 'twas grief for me. 3. I called my true love by her name, Then up she rose and to me came. I gave her kisses by one, two, three But none so sweet as she gave me. 4. Now the winter's gone, the summer's come, The small birds from the nest is sprung. I'll tell you plainly unto your face, "You're not the young man that I love best." 5. Now the winter's gone, the summer's come, The small birds from their nest is sprung I'll neither borrow nor I'll lend But I'll keep my heart for a better friend. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:06 PM Hi, Here's a version of Sailor Boy and Careless Love-- which was collected by my grandfather and is a result of his leading vocal music at Southern Music Vocal Camp at Banner Elk in the summer 1933. Mellinger Henry was a good collector but he couldn't write music, so he persuaded my grandfather to help him. That persuasion ended up becoming the first of his folk Music books, Beech Mountain Folk Songs and Ballads: CARELESS LOVE- sung by Edward Tufts, Banner Elk, NC, July 15, 1933 from Beech Mountain Folk Songs and Ballads, M. Henry and M. Matteson. "Captain, Captain, tell me true: Does my Willie sail with you?" No, oh no, he's not with me- He got drowned in the deep blue sea." Refrain: Love, O love, O careless love, Love, O love, how can it be? Love, O love, O careless love, To love someone that don't love me. Love, O love, O love divine. Love, O love, O love divine. Love, O love, O love divine, Lucile, you know you'll never be mine. Refrain Hail that eaptain as he passes, Hail that captain as he passes, Hail that captain as he passes, That's him, I have my Willie at last. Refrain Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 21 Feb 17 - 11:54 PM Hi, There's a traditional version of "Sailing Trade" in Songs the Whalemen Sang by Gale Huntington dated 1847. The "colour of amber" stanza is a bit different: That short blue jacket he used to wear His rosy cheeks and his coal black hair His lips as smooth as the velvet fine Ten thousand times he has kissed mine. A SAILOR'S TRADE IS A ROVING LIFE -From the log aboard the whaling ship, Elizabeth, port was New Bedford, Massachusetts 1847, Kendall repository. A sailor's trade is a roving life It's robbed me of my heart's delight He has gone and left me awhile to mourn But I can wait till he does return. That short blue jacket he used to wear His rosy cheeks and his coal black hair His lips as smooth as the velvet fine Ten thousand times he has kissed mine. Come father build me a little boat, That o'er the ocean I may float; And every ship that I do pass by, I will enquire for my sailor boy. She had not sailed far o'er the deep[1] Before a king's ship she chanced to meet, Captain captain, send me word Does my sweet William be on board? Oh no fair lady William is not here He's drowned or so I fear On yon green island as we pass Gives the last mark of your sailor boy. She wrung her hands and tore her hair Like some female in deep despair And then her boat to the shore did run Saying how can I live since my sailor's gone. Come all ye women that dress in white Come all ye men that take delight Come haul your colors at half mast high And help me to weep for my sailor boy. I will sit down and write a song I will write it both sweet and long At every line I will drop a tear At every verse: where is my dear. Come dig me a grave both wide and deep Place a marble stone at my head and feet And on my breast a turtle dove To let the world[2] know that I died for love. __________________ Footnote: 1. water was spilled on the log and the next two stanzas read: She had not sailed far o'er Before a king's ship Captain captain, Does my sweet Oh no fair He's On Gives 2. MS missing "To let the world" * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 22 Feb 17 - 03:29 PM Possible alternatives for the missing lines: Captain captain, come tell me true, Does my sweet William sail among your crew/on board with you. Oh no fair maiden, he is not here, He's been drowned we greatly fear On yon green island as we passed by Gives us to think lies your sailor boy. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 04:07 PM Thanks Steve, You're good at filling in the blanks!!! I wanted to point this out (I suspect Steve knew this already)-- the Sailor Boy stanza: If there are thousands, thousands in a Room My Love she carries the brightest Bloom; Sure she is some chosen one, I will have her, or Ill have none. is taken from Picking Lilies/Unfortunate Swain which is also tied into Died for Love with this stanza: Must I be bound, must she be free, Must I love one that loves not me; If I should act such a childish part To love a Girl that will break my heart. which has been adapted in various ways. Another stanza from Unfortunate Swain is used for "Deep in Love" which I consider a separate song. I think it's prudent now to look at the "Must I Go Bound?" songs and the use of "Must I Go Bound?" in Died for Love. Even Jim Cleveland's Butcher Boy (5 posts back) uses it to great advantage: 6. Must I go bound while he goes free, Must I love a boy who won't love me? Or must I live my life in shame, And raise a child without a name? I'll start working on it, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 04:27 PM Hi, Here's another use of Must I Go Bound? in the Butcher Boy. Frequently the last two lines of the standard stanza (Unfortunate Swain) are replaced. Also since most versions are sung from the female perspective, the stanza now appears: Must I be bound and you go free? Must I love one who ne'er loved me? Why should I play such a childish part To go after a boy who will break my heart? This would be one way the standard stanza would be found in the Died for Love songs and their relatives. There are earlier broadsides with Must/Shall I Go Bound? but this is a standard stanza that has evolved from the mid-1700s. Butcher Boy- sung by Spencer Moore of Chilhowie, Virginia with guitar; learned in 1925. Recorded by Gwilym Davies in 1997. Transcription R. Matteson, 2017. [guitar intro] In London City where I did dwell, A butcher boy I loved so well, He courted me, my life away, And then with me he would not stay. Must I go bound and you go free, And love the boy who don't love me; He takes another girl on his knee, And he tells her things that he won't tell me. [instrumental] Go dig my grave both wide and deep Place marble at my head and feet, And on my breast a snow-white dove, To show the world I died for love. [instrumental] Must I go bound and you go free, And love the boy who don't love me He takes another girl on his knee And he tells her things that he won't tell me. [instrumental] Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 04:37 PM Hi, Under the "Must I Go Bound" title are several Irish ballads/songs, one was published in 1909 and is only two stanzas (the first is repeated). The second stanza appears in Martin Parker's "Distressed Virgin", 1629: I put my finger to the bush, thinking the sweetest Rose to find, I prickt my finger to the bone, and yet I left the rose behind. It's also prominent in "Waly, Waly," and is found in later broadsides. This is from Herbert Hughes "Irish Country Songs" Volume I. 1909: MUST I GO BOUND AND YOU GO FREE- Fragment of an old song from County Derry Must I go bound and you go free, Must I love the lass who wouldn't love me, Was e'er I taught so poor a wit, As to love the lass would break my heart. I put my finger to the bush, To pluck the fairest rose, I pricked my finger to the bone, Ah, but then I left the rose behind. So must I go bound and you go free, Must I love the lass who wouldn't love me, Was e'er I taught so poor a wit, As to love the lass would break my heart. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 05:59 PM Hi, One early use of "Must I Go Bound?" that is clearly related to the Died for Love songs is the broadside ballad titled "The Complaining Lover- A New Song" (ca. 1795, Madden Ballads). Here, the first three stanzas are particularly relevant: 1. Must I be bound that can go free, Must I love one that loves not me. Let reason rule thy wretched mind, Altho' I wink I am not blind. 2. He loves another one he loves not me, No cares he for my company, He loves another I'll tell you why Because she has more gold than I. 3. Gold will wast and Silver will flys, In time she may have as little as I, Had I but gold and Silver in store, He would like me as he has done before. Stanzas 2 and 3 are found similarly in Nelly's Constancy of c1686 but the "The Complaining Lover" stanzas are clearly stanzas found in Brisk Young Lover/Alehouse followed by a stanza with "Must I go Bound?"-- which links both. Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 07:04 PM Hi, I finally wrote about 4 pages of my "Must I Go Bound?" headnotes: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7o-must-i-go-bound.aspx This paragraph from my headnotes (rough draft) sums up some of the confusion: "Must I Go Bound" is associated with and used in the Died for Love songs, particularly "Brisk Young Lover," "Alehouse" and "Butcher Boy." It is also associated with and found in some songs in the related song family such as "My Blue Eyed Boy" and "Love is Teasing." However, since it is part of the Unfortunate Swain broadside it is also used in the ballads and songs associated with that broadside which include "Seeds of Love," "Waly, Waly" and "Deep in Love." Comments welcome, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 09:17 PM Hi, I was just looking as Kidson's "I am a Rover": "O, am I bound or am I free? Or am I bound to marry thee? A married life you soon shall see, A contented mind is no jealousy." which has a different take 'Or am I bound' and there's a broadside. Steve-- what is the date of the broadsides "The Rover" Roud 1112 ? Anyway, the next stanza is from Rashy Moor/Muir the Scottish song: As I crossed over Dannamore," [yon dreary moor/rashy moor] There I lost sight of my true love's door; My heart did ache, my eyes went blind, As I thought of the bonny lass I'd left behind. And it has a stanza from Sailor Boy and Died for Love (I Wish)- talk about floaters. Because it's printed (prob. later part 1800s) I have to include it (and should) as a separate ballad (of floaters!!!) So with the marriage theme in stanza 1, is that "Yon Green Valley"? Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 22 Feb 17 - 10:59 PM Hi, Steve and all, I'm signing off for the day. I did finish: 7M. The Colour of Amber--http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7m-the-colour-of-amber.aspx 7N. Through Lonesome Woods-- http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7n-through-lonesome-woods.aspx I also wrote 5 pages of Must I Go Bound and added I am a Rover (The Rover) This is where I am so far: 7A. The Sailor Boy, or, Sweet William (Soldier Boy; Sweet William; Pinery Boy; Early, Early in the Spring) 7B. Love Has Brought Me to Despair (Constant Lady; Love Has Brought Me to Despair; False Lover;) 7C. Sheffield Park-- Roud 860 ("The Unfortunate Maid;" "The Young Man of Sheffield Park;" "In Yorkshire Park" ) 7D. Every Night When The Sun Goes In (Every Night When The Sun Goes Down) 7E. Will Ye Gang Love, or, Rashy Muir (Rashie Moor; Rashy Moor) 7F. My Blue-Eyed Boy (Bring Back My Blue-Eyed Boy) 7G. Early, Early by the Break of Day (The Two Lovers; (broadside): A new song called William and Nancy or The Two Hearts) 7H. She's Like the Swallow (She's Like the Swallow; The Constant Lady and False-Hearted Squire) 7I. I Love You, Jamie (Foolish Young Girl) 7J. I Know my Love by his Way of Walking (I Know My Love) 7K. Love Is Teasing (Love Is Pleasing) 7L. Careless Love (Reckless Love, Loveless Love, Careless Love Blues) 7M. The Colour of Amber (Color of Amber;) 7N. Through Lonesome Woods 7O. Must I Go Bound? 7P. I am a Rover (The Rover) Roud 1112 7Q. Deep in Love (Deep as the Love I'm In) I'm getting ready to start Deep in Love. I have Deep in Love originating with "The Sea-mans leave taken of his sweetest Margery" circa 1629 (Second Part). I think Deep in Love should be different than "Must I Go Bound" which covers a lot more territory - that's just my opinion. It's okay to have both stanzas in the same version- since that's how they appear in broadsides. I just think they are autonomous. I've looked at Baring Gould (the problem) and briefly RV Williams ballads online. Maybe you can provide more evidence. I haven't seen anyone using "The Sea-mans leave taken of his sweetest Margery" circa 1629 (Second Part) as a source. I need to review when I'm not tired. All the best, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 09:41 AM Hi, "I am Rover" (Roud 1112) has a nice illustration and the headnotes are nearly done: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7p-i-am-a-rover-the-rover.aspx Steve-- here's what I have for Deep in Love, I haven't looked through my notes. Obviously it appears in Unfortunate Swain/Picking Lilies (with Must I Go Bound) around 1750 and is part of Waly, Waly. Since I have it just after 1626 in "The Sea-mans leave taken of his sweetest Margery" printed for Francis Coles, I consider it to be different and inserted just as most of the stanzas in Waly/Unfortunate Swain are. Certainly most of the stanzas have their own identity. Here's the stanza from second part: Man. I have seaven Ships upon the Sea, and are all laden to the brim; I am so inflamd with love to thee, I care not whether they sinke or swim. The other stanza which is relevant is: Maid. If I had wist before I had kist, that Love had been so deare to win; My heart I would have closd in Gold, and pinnd it with a Silver pin. I have some more notes somewhere. I'll start working on it, Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 11:50 AM Hi, Here's the ballad from the horse's mouth- the originator of the title, "Deep in Love"- Sabine Baring Gould. It was published in his Songs And Ballads Of The West (1891). Baring-Gould did a study of the ballad as we can see from his detailed MS notes. Here's what he published in 1891: LXXXVI. Deep in Love. This very curious song was obtained by the late Rev. S. M. Walker, of Saint Enoder, Cornwall, from an old man in his parish. Miss Octavia L. Hoare sent it me as preserved by Mr. Walker. We have obtained the same song from Mary Sacherley, aged 75, perfectly illiterate, at Huckaby Bridge, Dartmoor. Mary Sacherley is daughter of an old singing moor man, who was a cripple, on Dartmoor. She possesses the unique distinction of having a house that was built and inhabited in one day. The circumstances are these: Her husband's father had collected granite boulders to erect a cottage on a bit of land that he deemed waste, but a farmer interfered as he began to build. He accordingly had all the stones rolled down hill to a spot by the road side, heaped one on another in rude walls, rough beams thrown across, and covered with turf, and went into the house the same night. In that house his grandchildren are now living. Two of the stanzas, 3 and 5, are found in the Scotch song, " Wally, Wally, up the bank," "Orpheus Calsdonicus," 1733, No. 34; stanzas 4 and 5 in the song in "The Scott's Musical Museum," 1787 — 1803, VI., p. 582 ; Herd's "Scottish Songs," 3rd ed., 1791, I., p. 140; part of last stanza is like our conclusion. In "The Wandering Lover's Garland," circ. 1730, are two of the verses worked into an independent ballad, showing that the original is earlier. Again taken down from W. Nichols, of Whitchurch, near Tavistock, it was a song of his grandmother's, who sixty years ago was hostess of the village inn. DEEP IN LOVE. 1. A ship came sailing over the sea, As deeply laden as she could be; My sorrows fill me to the brim, I care not if I sink or swim. 2. Ten thousand ladies in the room, But my true love's the fairest bloom, Of stars she is my brightest sun, I said I would have her or none. 3. I leaned my back against an oak. But first It bent and then it broke; Untrusty as I found that tree. So did my love prove false to me. 4. Down in a mead[ow] the other day, As carelessly I went my way, And plucked flowers red and blue, I little thought what love could do. 5. I saw a Rose with ruddy blush. And thrust my hind into the bush, I pricked my fingers to the bone, I would I'd left that rose alone! 6. I wish! I wish! but 'tis in vain, I wish I had I my heart again With silver chain and diamond locks, I'd fasten it in a golden box. Baring-Gould's notes are transcribed here: http://www.sbgsongs.org/userimages/Deeplove-comp.pdf In stanza 4 he had "mead" instead of "meadow." Obviously rewritten by Baring-Gould to make each stanza have an AABB rhyme- in fact he took out the line that names the song-- Deep in Love-- it should be first stanza, the third line, "But not so deep as in love I am." Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Feb 17 - 02:53 PM What's wrong with 'mead'? It fits perfectly the flowery description of the rest of the song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 05:33 PM Hi Steve, Well it's taken from Unfortunate Swain, I guess I thought it was a mistake. Here's how it is printed: Down in yon Meadow fresh and gay, Picking of Flowers the other day, Picking of Lillies red and blue: I little thought what Love could do. [Unfortunate Swain] Now it's right? Down in yon Mead fresh and gay, Picking of Flowers the other day, Picking of Lillies red and blue: I little thought what Love could do. Since it's supposedly traditional he could have sung, "mead" :) Baring-Gould completely reworked this version leaving off the line than names the song. I still think it's "meadow." No big deal just two letters-- unless you step on something- "ow" that hurt :) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 05:57 PM Hi, The problem with these songs based on the Unfortunate Swain is that every stanza but two (stanzas 7 and 8) is a floater. As an example, let's use a short version collected by George Butterworth: Down in those meadows fresh & gay, Plucking flowers the other day, I plucked those flowers both red and blues, I little thought what love could do The roses are such prickly flowers They should be gathered when they are green, I pricked my finger into the bone, I left the sweetest rose behind. I leaned my back against an oak, I thought it was a trusty tree, But first it bent,then it broke, And so did my false love to me. In yonder deep there swims a ship, She swims as deep as deep can be, Not half so deep as I am in love, I little care if I sink or swim. It's not "Deep in Love" unless you put the last stanza first then it's "Deep in Love." Right now it's "Down in those Meadows" based on the "Unfortunate Swain" identifying stanza or it could be called "Unfortunate Swain" if the singer or collector even knew it came from that broadside. Or if it began with the third stanza: I leaned my back against an oak, I thought it was a trusty tree, But first it bent, then it broke, And so did my false love to me. Now it's titled "I Leaned my Back" or "Trusty Tree." Each stanza is an autonomous floater. If only two stanzas-- it makes it easier to name :) Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 06:19 PM Hi, Here's another example: "Down In Yon Meadows", tune and text from Thomas Hepple; Manuscript, ca.1857 Down in a meadow fresh & gay Plucking flowers the other day, Plucking flowers both red and blue, I little thought what love could do. Where love is planted there it grows, It buds & blossoms like any rose, Such a sweet and pleasant smell, All flowers on earth can it excel. There thousands thousands all in a room, My love she carries the highest bloom, Surely she must be some chosen one, I will have her or, I will have none. I put my hand into a bush, Thinking the sweetest rose to find, But I prick'd my finger to the bone, I left the sweetest rose behind. I spy'd a ship sailing on the sea Laden as deep as she could be, But not deep as in love I am, I care not whether she sink or swim. Must I be bound and she go free Must I love one that loves not me; Why should I act such a childish part To love a girl that should break my heart. This is not "Deep in Love" and it is almost appropriately titled (Down in a Meadow). It's also not "Must I be Bound." It can't be named or classified by any other stanza. If it began with another stanza, it could be named by that stanza. It can be classified under Unfortunate Swain. I'm working on this now but this is a problem with Roud 18829 (which I was going to look at later) and some Roud numbers-- thank goodness everything isn't this complicated!! Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 07:26 PM Hi, Not sure if I put the Unfortunate Swain text here. I'm including a few brief unfinished notes from my "Deep in Love" headontes: The placement of the identifying "Deep in Love" stanza as the opening stanza is one way to validate the title being "Deep in Love." Some other ways are: the identifying stanza is repeated as a chorus or if there are two stanzas in the variant. The "Deep in Love" stanza does not have other stanzas that usually go with it but rather it is from a set of stanzas found in "The Unfortunate Swain" which can reasonably be sung in any order. A number of broadsides were printed starting about 1750. This standard text is from The Merry Songster. Being a collection of songs, Printed and sold in Aldermary Church Yard, Bow Lane, London, [1770?]: "The Unfortunate Swain" 1. Down in a Meadow both fair and gay, Plucking a Flowers the other day, Plucking a Flower both red and blue, I little thought what Love could do. 2. Where Love's planted there it grow(s), It buds and blows much like any Rose; And has so sweet and pleasant smell, No Flower on Earth can it excell. 3. Must I be bound and she be free? Must I love one that loves not me? Why should I act such a childish Part To love a Girl that will break my Heart. 4. There's thousand thousands in room, My true love carries the highest Bloom, Sure she is some chosen one, I will have her, or I'll have none. 5. I spy'd a Ship sailing on the Deep, She sail'd as deep as she could swim; But not so deep as in Love I am, I care not whether I sink or swim. 6. I set my Back against an oak, I thought it had been a Tree; But first it bent and then it broke, So did my false Love to me. 7. I put my Hand into a Bush, Thinking the sweetest Rose to find, l prick'd my Finger to the Bone, And left the sweetest Rose behind. 8. If Roses are such prickly Flowers, They should be gather'd while they're green, And he that loves an unkind Lover, I'm sure he strives against the stream. 9. When my love is dead and at her rest, I'll think of her whom I love best I'll wrap her up in Linnen strong, And think on her when she's dead and gon[e]. Songs related to or derived from The Unfortunate Swain, also known as Picking Lilies, are identified by the opening, "Down in a Meadow." Notice that Baring-Gould's "Deep in Love' stanza 4 opens with "Down in a Meadow[]." Stanzas 7 and 8 are usually joined and come from Martin Parker's "Distressed Virgin" of c.1626. The other stanzas usually appear along with the "Deep in Love" stanza in print and in tradition. The choice and the order of stanzas seem arbitrary. What's remarkable is that the individual stanza exhibit a wide variety of emotions from the exhilaration of love (stanzas 1, 2,4,5) to the agony of despair and death (stanzas 3,6,7,8,9). The first stanza or more accurately the first line is occasionally found in the Died for Love songs and their relatives. It's mixed with the similar first line from "Constant Lady," a broadside more commonly used in Died for Love. Stanza 4 ("If there's a thousand in the room") is found in Sailor Boy (Sweet William) a "traditional" relative[] of Died for Love. * * * * I never finished my headnotes. They are here: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7q-deep-in-love-deep-as-the-love-im-in.aspx As a general rule, with very few exceptions (one being "Must I Go Bound"): Stanzas from Unfortunate Swain are not found in the Died for Love songs. Died for Love is aligned with Constant Lady and the False Squire. Some of the related songs like Sailor Boy, for example, have a common stanza. Unfortunate Swain is aligned with "Down in the Meadows;" "Love is Teasing;" "Waly, Waly;" "Water is Wide;" "Deep in Love" and "Must I Go Bound." Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 23 Feb 17 - 09:31 PM Hi, I looked at MSS of Roud 28829. The link I posted that claims to have Baring-Gould's complete notes-- are just his final reworked pages, not his actually messy notes. Baring-Gould version in Song's of the West was completely reworded to have an AABB rhyme so it should be disregarded. The actual traditional versions are very sketchy and I'll need to spend some time to figure out what he did. However, there are several versions. Unfortunately Baring-Gould labeled these different variants of Unfortunate Swain, Deep in Love, which apparently became a label that somehow stuck-- when it's the rewording of the third line of 9 random stanzas. As mystifying as that is to me- so be it (or, as Sir Paul penned, "Let it Be"). I've found a couple traditional versions that I feel qualify to be Deep in Love versions. One is a song sung by Newcastle miners: From Notes and Queries (page 441) 1867: Song.—I came across a song a few days ago, of which I append the words. I was told that it is a fragment of a song frequently sung by the Newcastle pitmen. The melody, as I heard it, is very quaint, and also good, and has an ancient ring about it. Perhaps you or some of your readers can give the rest of the song, or anything of its history, &c. "I saw a ship sailing on the sea. As deeply laden as she could be; But not so deep as in love I am, For I care not whether I sink or swim. "I leaned my back against an oak, Thinking it was some trusty tree; But first it bent, and then it broke, And so did my false love to me. "I put my hand into a thorn, Thinking the sweetest rose to find; I pricked my finger to the bone. And left the beauteous flower behind. "I wish, I wish, but 'tis all in vain— I wish I had my heart back again; I'd lock it up in a silver box, And fasten it with a golden chain." C. L. Acland. * * * * Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 24 Feb 17 - 01:01 PM Hi, I've finished the headnotes to "I am a Rover": http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7p-i-am-a-rover-the-rover.aspx I want to thank Steve Gardham for sending me copies and texts/ also Gwilym Davies for sending mp3s. Steve I need "I Love you Jamie" from Greig Duncan to finish that and Deep in Love by Gladys Stone in Kennedy, Folksongs of Britain & Ireland (1975) p.349 Collector, Bob Copper. I've briefly looked at Yon Green Valley (Green Valley) and wonder- does anyone has any older versions of that song? TY Richie |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Died for Love Sources: PART III From: Richie Date: 24 Feb 17 - 09:56 PM Hi, I've started "Yon Green Valley" which has a stanza in common with "I Am a Rover" and is related to Died for Love and its family. Here the first page: http://www.bluegrassmessengers.com/7r-yon-green-valley-green-valley-.aspx I need some help tracking down versions but it won't be easy. It's found mainly in Canada. I found a version in "Never Had a Word Between Us": Pattern in the Verbal Art of a Newfoundland Woman; Debora G. Kodish - 1981. Its chorus: Down in yon green valley that lies far away, Where me and my bonny boy spent manys a pleasant day Where me and my bonny boy spent manys a pleasant time He soon proved false to Floro on the lovely banks of Bine. Anyone have the book who can post it? Know a version like that? * * * * Debra Cowan of Massachusetts has a version, it begins: Green Valley For a young man courted me earnestly It was with his wishes I did comply It was his false vows and flattering tongue He beguiled me love when I was young In yon green valley we both went down Where the pretty small birds come a-whistling 'round Changing their notes from tree to tree As the sun arose on yon green valley. I need to find her source or any closely related version. Anyone? * * * * This is related but it's a different song- sung from the male perspective. Any other versions or info? The Journal of American Folk-lore, Volume 22, Parts 3-4 Barry-- Irish Come-all -Ye's 1. Early early all in the spring, When gentle small birds begin to sing, Changing their notes from tree to tree, As the sun arose over yon green valley. 2. For six long months my love she did prove kind, And then six after, she changed her mind, Saying "Farewell, darling, I must away, You know my parents I must obey!" 3. He held her fast, he would not let her go, Saying, "Mary, Mary, my mind you know, Fulfil those vows you made to me, As the sun arose over yon green valley!" * * * * Other than that there's a version called "Must I Go Bound" by Bascom Lama Lunsford recorded in 1935. Or a version titled "Green Valley" recorded by Lomax in Michigan in 1938. Anyone? Other versions? I'll do probably one or two more "appendix" additions- then it's a matter of finishing everything. Any comments or suggests are welcome. TY Richie |
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