BS: the Oxford comma

Subject: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 03:53 AM

remember
definition of a Kiwi eats, shoots, and leaves?
definition of a panda eats shoots and leaves

it is all about meaning. a blog that highlights one reason it can be important

It is not grammar policing. Communication is about meaning, not what you mean, but what the reader interprets.

discuss...........

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 04:07 AM

As an obsessive, incurable stickler, pedant and retired schoolteacher, I'm all for punctuation (except, of course, that scourge of greengrocers, the ubiquitous and infuriating redundant apostrophe).

As the blog states, the aim of the Oxford comma is clarity.
I'll even use that groan-provoking modern expression, "What's not to like?' (innit?)

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 08:47 AM

I thought that the punchline (before Lynne Truss Bowdlerised it)was that "the panda eats, roots, shoots and leaves".

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 09:43 AM

I must have exhausted hundreds of red biros over my thirty years as a teacher, correcting punctuation (not to mention poor spelling, bad grammar and inanities) but nowadays no-one seems to bother about any of it.
It's Liberty Hall today, and there's the added horror of Text Speak.
I have to say though that my niece, a feisty lass in her early twenties, makes me laugh with her texting. I particularly like 'soz' for 'sorry'. She sent her mum a brief message saying 'Hi ma L8 4U. Soz x' Luckily my sister can translate these cryptic texts.

To release my pedantic frustration, I've taken to correcting the Daily Mail each morning with a red biro. One has to have an outlet...

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 10:49 AM

The New Yorker has a copy editor who has done a number of videos on punctuation and word choice. The Oxford Comma by the Comma Queen.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Ed.
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 11:44 AM

I've taken to correcting the Daily Mail each morning with a red biro.

Why on earth are you buying The Daily Mail?

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 11:47 AM

Is there a difference between an Oxford comma and a Harvard comma?

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 12:36 PM

Ed, it's a foul newspaper, I know, but I do love to complete the four pages of puzzles to keep my brain in good trim. I can't help noticing the frequent grammatical slip-ups and misprints, and feel very smug correcting them with my trusty red biro.

My high-faluting sister gets The Times and does its fearsome crossword in record time. But then, she's always been almost a genius.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 03:32 PM

Joe O.: In my limited experience, "Oxford comma" is the usual academic jargon, whereas "Harvard comma" is what journalists call it -- usually with a sneer. Journalists, up to (say) the 1960s, were seldom college graduates, and "Harvard" connoted rich snob queer.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 03:42 PM

Hahaha! There's a thread in the Music section about a song by 'Dan and Dan' about the Daily Mail. And it's brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: JHW
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 04:36 PM

so it's not a butterfly?

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 04:46 PM

Mary Norris comma queen f the New Yorker TED.com video

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jun 17 - 09:04 PM

"Let's eat, Grandma!"

"Let's eat Grandma!"

While you can get into a comma coma, clarity should be the rule.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 01:26 AM

Posted No Swimming Allowed

Posted? No. Swimming allowed!

I loved the book Eats Shoots and Leaves.

I also loved the joke.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 02:11 AM

A good few years ago now I used to submit articles to an American music publication (I'd better not give any more details!) and the editor obsessively inserted huge numbers of commas into my pieces. He made me look like an illiterate twit and in the end I had to threaten to stop writing for him.

Just to illustrate, I'll now redo the above in the style he might have employed:

A good few years ago, now, I used to submit articles, to an American music publication, (I'd better not give any more details!), and the editor, obsessively, inserted huge numbers of commas, into my pieces. He made me look like, an illiterate twit, and, in the end, I had to threaten, to stop writing for him.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 02:56 AM

Wikipedia has an interesting article on "serial comma," which is another name for the same thing.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 03:04 AM

Brian Sewell was a comma fanatic!

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 03:14 AM

Comma comma comma comma come on

Sorry

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 03:59 AM

Comma comma comma comma comma chameleon...

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 06:19 AM

My uncle had a Commer van once - always stopping and starting.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 07:05 AM

What's the difference between a cat and a comma?

A cat has claws at the ends of its paws and a comma is a pause at the end of a clause.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 08:41 AM

What a wonderful place the Mudcat is!

Comma Nova to my place.......

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 05:48 PM

My uncle had a Commer van once - always stopping and starting.

Mine came to a full stop. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 17 - 10:50 PM

My old English grammar teachers called it "commaitis." Sometimes though they were completely commatose.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 02:04 PM

Too many commas and too few commas are equally bad. My impression is that the latter fault is probably more common.

Sometimes it's a matter of a shade of meaning or emphasis. For example, in Steve's example, I'd have been for putting in the commas framing "obsessively", as a way of reinforcing the criticism of the editor.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 04:08 PM

Personally, I would have put "obsessively" in brackets, preceded by "almost", so the line would have read:

... and the editor, (almost obsessively), inserted huge numbers of commas into my pieces.

"obsessively" just needs some qualifying here in order to read smoothly IMO.

I don't think the editor, no matter how obsessive, would actually have inserted a comma between "commas" and "into".

I just love threads about pedantry ...

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jun 17 - 08:29 PM

I imagine now there are illiterate spell-checking programs adding commas where they don't belong and deleting them where they are needed.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 05:50 AM

The shade of meaning I intended was achieved perfectly by leaving "obsessively" unadorned. The fellow did the same thing with all my articles despite my pleading and, ultimately, my threats. I think that over-use of punctuation can lead to the disengagement of the reader. There's nothing worse than being forced to process mentally someone else's over-anxious littering of their prose. Trust the reader!

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 06:52 AM

Just for clarity:
As an obsessive, incurable stickler, pedant and retired schoolteacher
Are you an obsessive (adj.) stickler, or an obsessive (n.), and a stickler?

And, with one of the earlier means of 'pedant', can you be both a pedant, and a retired schoolteacher?

Cheers
Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 07:04 AM

Just realised I'd been reading the thread in reverse order, that last comment is separated by a great swathe from the original comment!

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 07:54 AM

There's a superfluous comma after your second "pedant" there.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 08:33 AM

On Saturday we were whizzing along on the Park-and-Ride bus through Norwich, and I noticed a sign outside a rather scruffy barber shop that said 'Kids Haircuts £4'. I was prevented by my ever-vigilant husband from jumping off the bus and adding the missing apostrophe. He knows I am completely insane and is always on the watch for just these kind of situations.
It's usually the other way round. On Norwich market, the number of apostrophes where they shouldn't be is horrifying. I growl my way round there like a bad-tempered Alsatian dog.

I'm not at all easy to live with...

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 09:05 AM

There's a superfluous comma after your second "pedant" there.
Possibly. But when I read it back to myself the comma is clearly there.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jun 17 - 09:02 PM

The comma shouldn't be there because "and a retired schoolteacher" is not equal in status grammatically to the part of the sentence preceding it. Worse, you simply don't use it in a short "both-and" construction. It's plain wrong.

"Both Cyril and Mary play the trumpet."

"Both Cyril, and Mary play the trumpet."

"Both Cyril, and Mary, play the trumpet."

Take yer pick. I know which one I prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 12:09 AM

How about Cyril and Mary both play the trumpet. That way there is no need to even consider a comma.
When Mark Lovewell and I thought our book Songs of South Street . . . was ready for publication we took it to an editor and she showed us how much better it read with about 2/3 of the commas removed. We learned a lot about cleaning up grammar from her. That was in ye olde days before word processors and easily accessible computers. A lot of retyping but worth it.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 03:37 AM

Yes. Re-structuring the sentence - a much better solution to plain English.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: JHW
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 06:47 AM

There were no apostrophe stalls on Norwich Market when I was a bairn but excellent choc ices in silver foil.
Never had another that tasted so good.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 07:16 AM

I love Norwich market JHW. The stallholders have been there for donkey's years. Not sure if your choc ices are still being sold.
We like the fish stalls with lovely Cromer crabs and kippers.
(Sorry about the thread drift)

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 07:47 AM

The comma shouldn't be there because "and a retired schoolteacher" is not equal in status grammatically to the part of the sentence preceding it. Worse, you simply don't use it in a short "both-and" construction. It's plain wrong.

Take yer pick. I know which one I prefer.

Thank you. I can agree with that. Provided that the meaning is clear it's a matter of personal preference. I prefer the sentence as I originally punctuated it.

Subject: RE: BS: the Oxford comma
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 17 - 09:27 AM

I agree about recomposing awkward sentence constructions and about how we should tell the world about the trumpeting talents of Cyril and Mary, but I was trying to show how extra commas can intrude in "both-and" constructions.