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BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire
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Subject: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: The Sandman Date: 27 Apr 18 - 02:38 PM there exists amendment 13, which allows people FROM REP OF IRELAND to travel to the UK[ but not NORTHERN IRELAND] for an abortion. However the people who are against abortion in REP OF IRELAND IMO through their opposition to the repealing of the 8th amendment, are in fact in practice failitating abortions at a later stage in the UK, slightly ironic., and rather unjoined up thinking |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Iains Date: 27 Apr 18 - 03:02 PM The EU view. http://www.thejournal.ie/eu-report-womens-health-abortion-3732024-Dec2017/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:00 PM The situation in Ireland as it stands is an abomination. The referendum, even it it goes the right way, doesn't go anywhere near far enough. My first visceral instinct when I saw this was to ask meself why men are getting any say in this at all. I said visceral, not articulated or reasoned. I know there are good men who have the right sentiments. But how fer chrissake is this an issue that men should have any say in? It makes me sick, frankly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:27 PM Abortion makes me uneasy, but I sure can't stomach any law that prohibits abortion before the sixth month of pregnancy. Whatever my opinion of abortion might be, I think the decision must be up to the pregnant woman - nobody else. -Joe, lifelong Catholic- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 27 Apr 18 - 09:34 PM For the second time tonight Joe, good man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Apr 18 - 03:36 AM "Abortion makes me uneasy, but I sure can't stomach any law that prohibits abortion before the sixth month of pregnancy. Whatever my opinion of abortion might be, I think the decision must be up to the pregnant woman - nobody else." That is the aim of the "YES" campaign - it will at least bring Ireland into the 20th century on this matter - nothing radical compared to what is happening in the rest of the world. This is turning into a very vicious fundamentalist campaign, especially in the rural areas, and the church isn't really helping (sorry Joe) The Bishops declared en masse a few weeks ago that a repeal of the clause would be tantamount to legal euthanasia It really is time that organisations - church and state - were prohibited from influencing these decisions by flexing their religious or political muscle It looks like there might be chance of a reform this time, but the danger is that, whatever the decision, an extremely bitter taste will be left in the mouths of people whatever decision is reached We were canvassed by a nice lady a few weeks ago asking us to vote "NO" to repeal I tried to engage her in discussion but one it got beyond the "killing poor little babies" she was totally out of her depth I did manage to get as far as finding out she was also against contraception - this is really fundamentalist stuff Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: The Sandman Date: 28 Apr 18 - 05:19 AM I agree Jim, I have had similiar experience with no campaigner, she displayed her ignorance when i asked her did she know what the 13th amendment was, the situation is this ;those campaignong for no are effectively encouraging later abortions., by forcing woment to go to to England |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Bonzo3legs Date: 28 Apr 18 - 05:33 AM "Whatever my opinion of abortion might be, I think the decision must be up to the pregnant woman - nobody else." I find myself agreeing with Jim Carroll. Nothing but catholic claptrap prevents common sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Raedwulf Date: 28 Apr 18 - 05:36 AM From Bad Religion's (modern punk) 'Don't Pray on Me', A bitter debate and a feminine fate Fly in tandem like two precious babes While the former gets warmer it's the latter that matters Except on the nation's airwaves And custodians of public opinion stay back after vainly discussing her rights Lay hands off her body It's not your fucking life Says it all, really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Apr 18 - 07:31 AM I'm sure all will agree that we hope that the people of Ireland will make the right decision. We might not all agree as to what that would be. There might indeed be a fair case for restricting the vote on this kind of issue to women. However I think it is right that in Ireland the people have the last word, as was also the case when a referendum in 2001 enabled them to outlaw any future reintroduction of the death penalty as contrary to the constitution, with the Twenty-first Amendment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Apr 18 - 06:17 PM Is it still ok for me to say that I think that referendums are never, ever, ever a good idea? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 28 Apr 18 - 06:56 PM One way to reduce the need for abortions would be to increase advice and help with contraception, and to encourage people to take more responsibility for preventing unwanted pregnancies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 29 Apr 18 - 09:00 AM As has already been noted , we had a referendum on the death penalty . In this instance though we know that the condemned are innocent |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Apr 18 - 09:04 AM "In this instance though we know that the condemned are innocent "? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: goatfell Date: 29 Apr 18 - 09:17 AM Well these people that are against it well let them look after the child |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Apr 18 - 09:48 AM The "NO" campaign is based on the hypocritical claim that all life is sacred - if the Church (the main drivers of this argument) really believed this we would be living in a war-free world many centuries ago Pacifism is as far from Christian belief as is Devil worship The claim of the NO campaigners is that pregnancy termination is murder - yet in 2016 there were more than reported 3,000 British abortions for women from Republic with a further 724 from the Six Counties I have yet to hear one single call from these "defenders of human life" to bring the perpetrators of these "mass-murders" to justice - why? The Church that inspires these people has an appalling history in matters sexual - both in officers of that church carrying out sexual crime3s on children (almost certainly for centuries), and the hierarchy of the church protecting them and allowing them to continue their criminal activities. Up to now, contraception has been regarded as a sin and so, has been forbidden in Ireland - even now, the attitude of the church is ambivalent on the subject. An act that is natural to humanity has been turned into a necessary evil by a group of (supposedly?) celibate men How sad is that? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 29 Apr 18 - 10:27 AM It's all about control isn't it Jim? Control of people's private lives, which should be entirely their own business. The Church can't have it both ways. Either they approve contraception (which doesn't 'kill' anything, just prevents it being created) or they approve abortion. Although I'm reminded of that funny Monty Python song from The Meaning of Life 'Every sperm is sacred'. And I agree, the very idea of a load of celibate men telling women what and what not to do with their bodies, and threatening them with Hell etc is absolutely abhorrent. Especially as their own sexual behaviour has often been deplorable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Apr 18 - 10:31 AM "It's all about control isn't it Jim?" You said it Sen - personally, I think much of the clerical abuse scandal was about control too - very much a case of "I'm in charge" Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 29 Apr 18 - 11:07 AM I think I mentioned on a thread last year about having met and spoken to 'Father' Anthony McSweeney several times when I used to attend mass near Norwich. He was the most arrogant, entitled, unfriendly person I think I've ever met. Really domineering and unpleasant. He was eventually convicted of child abuse and was a rampant paedophile. The thing is, his Bishop had quietly moved him from the Hounslow diocese where he'd been abusing boys in a residential home, and sent him to Norwich in a massive cover-up. He was even Chaplain to Norwich City Football Club. His homilies were full of strict admonitions and advocation of morality and self-control (!!!); looking back, the hypocrisy was so appalling it beggars belief. I know there are probably many many lovely priests around, but really, the idea of any religious bloke telling women what to do (no, ordering them!) makes by blood boil. And my husband has told me of imams who denigrate women and bang on about the rules and regulations pertaining to their role in Islam. So it isn't just the Christian point of view that needs challenging. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 29 Apr 18 - 11:08 AM 'my' not 'by' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 18 - 02:47 PM How can a claim that all human life is sacred be hypocritical? It is possible to argue that it false, or that a person making the claim is hypocritical (for example if they favour capital punishment), but those are two different things. If you believe that all human life is sacred, meaning that it is wrong to act to end a human life, except possibly in the case of self defence against an attacker, that has implications. If that principle is accepted, and if it is true to say that abortion entails the ending of a human life, it means that arguments about any positive consequences of ending that human life are irrelevant, until and unless this position can be countered successfully Two counters to that are made. One is that abortion does not involve ending a human life, because only at birth, or at a certain point in pregnancy does a human life begin, or that it is not wrong to end this human life. For example it may be claimed that the life involved is in a sense attacking the mother, and what is involved is a form of self defence. If one or other of those counters is accepted it becomes relevant to move on to other issues. But much of the time those arguing the case for abortion rights skip past this basic issue. If you were trying to change the views of a principled vegetarian who believing eating meat was always wrong, it would not be relevant to tell them about how good meat tastes, or about its dietary benefit. There is a fallback position, and this it seems to me is the place where any serious case for a vote to reverse the 8th Amendment, would need to base itself. This would be that, even if abortion is ethically wrong, the effects of existing laws are significantly more damaging to society and to its members than their abolition. This is not a simple choice. To suggest, as it is widely trumpeted in the British media, that those who vote to retain the present law are not worthy of respect, and that if the vote comes out with a vote for the existing constitutional position it will the Ireland Votes for Dark Ages is unworthy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:05 PM "How can a claim that all human life is sacred be hypocritical? " It is hypocritical when the people who plead it against abortion are happy to send youngsters off to war - as they consistently have It is also hypocritical when the people who accuse those who want the right to pregnancy termination of "murder" yet are happy to say nothing about the numbers crossing to Britain for the operation - very much a NIMBY approach There is little point in mentioning the women who have died because they could not obtain a termination The most horrific case of denying the right to termination was surely the 11 year old rape victim who not only was made pregnant and had two sexually transmitted diseases passed on to her by her rapist, but whose family was shielded from the facts until it was too late to legally be terminated Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: The Sandman Date: 29 Apr 18 - 03:36 PM if the Roman Catholic church starts to talk about murder and abortion, they should be reminded of this What has been discovered in Tuam? Bon Secours Sisters. The Congregation of the Sisters of Bon Secours is a Roman Catholic religious congregation for nursing Last Friday, the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes announced that “significant” quantities of human remains had been found buried under the site of a former institution for unmarried mothers run by the Sisters of the Bon Secours in Tuam, Co Galway. The remains belonged to children aged from about 35 foetal weeks to two to three years. The news was greeted with widespread revulsion. Minister for Children Katherine Zappone said it was “very sad and disturbing”, while the commission itself said it was shocked by its own discovery. On Sunday, Archbishop of Tuam Dr Michael Neary said he was “horrified and saddened” by the news. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Apr 18 - 05:00 PM People can be hypocritical. Too many are. But how can that in itself in any way affect whether the claim is valid or not? You wouldn't judge whether climate was true or not on the basis of whether the person arguing that it was happened to be a hypocrite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:11 PM We did not have a referendum on the death penalty, to clear that up, Pete. So who's pro-abortion? Not me, not anybody else I know. The only right side to be on is the side that says lay off, it's her body, you have no say and it's up to her to choose. And to say that women should exercise more control, more responsibility, should realise tbe consequences, etc., is simply heinous and wicked. The very same sanctimonious, misogynistic bastards who purport to oppose abortion also often oppose proper sex education, education for relationships and the sanctioning of effective methods of birth control, let alone instruction about it. The big religions are actually the champions of abortion. Without their baleful influence we could get started on the kind of truly effecfive public education that could reduce abortion to a vanishingly small phenomenon. Oh, and striving for equality for women and for an end to poverty would help as well. All too many people, many dressed in religious garb, are all too ready to blame vulnerable women whilst at the same time presiding over their own blatantly misogynistic and blinkered institutions. If Jesus was alive today he'd be turning in his grave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 29 Apr 18 - 06:48 PM I agree with all you say Steve. But I reckon Jesus wouldn't bother turning in His grave. He'd pop out and punch a few sanctimonious, misogynistic bastards on the nose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:03 AM "He'd pop out..." Well he does have form... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 05:48 AM "women should exercise more control, more responsibility, should realise tbe consequences, etc." Were do men figure in all this, or do they bear no responsibility for their actions What a quaintly misogynist attitude It is being ignored that this includes victims of rape and children who have been made incestuously made pregnant by family members - all forbidden terminations What an inhuman world we live in eh? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:12 AM Very misogynist Jim. It takes two etc. If there could be a better attitude towards young couples having sex (as in it being perfectly natural and normal), and a more gentle, helpful approach with regards to information about birth control (ha! In fact, even allowing birth control at all in the case of Catholics!) providing the Morning After Pill if needed, abortion clinics with excellent facilities including counselling and support, prevention of STIs and so on, instead of this moral condemnation, religious control, Victorian views almost at the level of seeing them as 'fallen women' and consigning them to Hell, then things would be moving towards the 21st Century. Islam is no different in its misogynism. My husband's poor mother had nine children, and would have been beaten mercilessly if she'd even considered terminating a pregnancy. His father has sixteen children in total with three wives, and while men can have sex here, there and everywhere, the 'immoral' women involved can be spat on, have stones chucked at them and are ostracised by the entire community. I add this to show that it isn't just the Catholics who maintain this view of women. And it's time it was all stamped on. Hard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 07:39 AM I was going to reopen the Rugby race trial thread, bu as this is a passing comment only vaguely relating to the subject - I'll put it here A jury at recent trial in Pamplona Spain, where five men gang-raped a woman in a doorway, filmed the rapes and put them up on the internet, were found not guilty of rape, but guilty of sexual assault One of the panel of judges at the trial separated himself from the verdict and voted to free the men (as no violence took place) This has led to massive protests throughout Spain and a promise to change the law The Judge has demanded the resignation of the minister who made this promise Regarding the treatment of women, dinosaurs really do still walk the earth Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:15 AM I agree that those kind of arguments you quote there, Jim, are quite out of order and totally irrelevant. The central element of the ethical case against abortion is that it involves the death of one human being to serve the interests of another human being. Until and unless that view can be successfully countered other aspects, however important, are not relevant in regard to the ethical issue. If two human beings are indeed involved, the argument that this is in principle a matter for the stronger one's free choose is flawed, since it is essentially the same as making the same judgement in the case of other situations where two human beings are involved, and one is more powerful. However I accept that ethical considerations are in practice not what shapes society. We choose to balance them according to utilitarian judgements, and of course there is no agreement on many ethical matters. We may accept things which we see as wrong because the alternatives are seen as on balance more harmful. My view is that this is a matter where a society needs to make a decision - and that it would be much better if that decision was exclusively made by women members of that society. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 08:37 AM "involves the death of one human being to serve the interests of another human being." Not as simple as that when you take the case as a whole as the case of Savita Halappanavar, nor all the other women who have died for the want of a life-saving operation Most societies have reached a rational where it is permissible to terminate a pregnancy up to reasonable point before that foetus has eveolved into a viable life-form - in Ireland, the suggested twelve-week period is a somewhat conservative limit Then you have Fatal Feotal Abnormality, where both the mother and the child are subjected to a life of hardship and often pain with no hope of a future Then you have to take into consideration the hangover from a society that once made contraception illegal and now treats it with suspion The same society treats childbirth as a woman's duty and failure to produce children at best, a misfortune and at worst a human failing. I've known priests who have offered to pray for childless couple This is 'The Handmaid's Tale' written into modern society, where women are merely breeding machines It seems somewhat dismissive to describe this as the death of one human being to serve the interests of another human being" - it is in fact assigning a role to half of humanity - that of producing children No Government should have that right and certainly not a group of celibate (supposedly), self-appointed mystics. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:25 PM Savita Hallappanavar's tragic death was a case where the medics totally botched things, and totally misunderstood the law. Irish law was clear that in that situation the need to preserve the life of the mother permitted and even made imperativey medical intervention that would have meant the death of the unviable foetus, which would in any case necessarily die if the mother died. Irish law has now been made even clearer than it then was.The sad thing is, doctors sometimes do get things wrong in any society. How does the fact that only women can bear babies mean that it is dismissive to say that a termination involves sacrificing one human being for another? Maybe "interests" is a word that invites misunderstanding. "Needs" is better, and expresses what I intended to say. The 8th Amendment requires that at no point should the life of one human being be prioritised over the life of another. This vote is about permitting exclusion from that of human lives at an early stage. Because of the fact that only women can bear babies I expressed the wish that this referendum could have been restricted to women, so I am happy that I have no vote in this. I hope that whatever the results we won't see a stream of insults against those who do not vote the "the right way" (whatever that might be), such as have crept into this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 12:59 PM "Savita Hallappanavar's tragic death was a case where the medics totally botched things, and totally misunderstood the law. " No - the law prevented her - and many other women - of having the operation she needed to keep her alive Her death has become a major debating point in the campaign The Eight amendment, while paying lip service to the of right to all, coupled with church's divine blackmail, has made pregnancy termination virtually impossible in Ireland Add to all this the statement by medical staff (in an already extremely overstretched to breaking-point health service) that they will refuse to carry out such operations if the decision to repeal is agreed Britain first won the right to legal abortion 88 years ago - this is a FAIR EXPLANATION of the situation Irish women find themselves nearly nine decades later This is Dark Ages stuff - it really is Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Apr 18 - 01:21 PM Here is the BBC News piece about that tragic death. Indicating that it was a case of medical botching. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:39 PM "ndicating that it was a case of medical botching." Which misses out all the other bits I mentioned about spiritual blackmail.. THe woman was actually told by a nurse that she couldn't have the operation because "Ireland is a Christian country" Don't see that in the report either We were informed by The Irish Times recently that Ireland was about to be invaded by groups of Trumpite American rednecks sporting "Make America Great Again" baseball caps who have been sent over to persuade the Irish to vote "NO" (not sure where this fits in with Trump's "grab them by the pussy philosophy, but there you go!) If the facts on this referendum weren't strong enough to allow you to make up your mind, the "NO" lobby sure is. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:57 PM THere was an official report on the cause of Savita Hallappanavar's death - the Arulkumaran report The Arulkumaran report was published on 13 June 2013. It identified three "Key Causal Factors" for the death: inadequate assessment and monitoring; failure to offer all management options to a patient; and non adherence to clinical guidelines related to the prompt and effective management of sepsis. It made six recommendations for improvements in patient care in such situations. Most recommendations called for improvements in healthcare guideline, training and practices, and one recommendation called for legislative changes if necessary to allow for expediting delivery for clinical purposes. Additionally, it made three recommendations to address incidental factors. In 2017 Arulkumaran commented that a significant contributing factor to her death was Ireland's restrictive abortion laws Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Apr 18 - 02:59 PM If Trump is lining up his people to do that it would imply he's put his money on there being a YES vote. Which would be quite consistent with what he's urged in the past, when it was convenient. He pretty clearly doesn't give a damn either way. ................. I can't see that an inappropriate remark by a nurse would have contributed significantly to that catalogue of medical mistakes. There was no basis in Irish Law (nor in Catholic doctrine) for failing to act in such a way as to preserve the mother's life, even when that necessitated terminating the pregnancy in circumstances when the life of the foetus must be lost. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Tattie Bogle Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:24 PM Abortion only became legal in general terms, and under certain circumstances in Britain (exc N Ireland) in 1967 with David Steel's Abortion Act: the case that Jim cites may have been legal, but was probably a one-off for extenuating circumstances in that particular case - but was not a general legalisation of abortion in England, Wales and Scotland: that had to wait for 1967. In the meantime, between 1931 and 1967, many women suffered the devastating, sometimes fatal, effects of illegal abortion. Provision of contraception and advice on the use thereof is vital, but there is no 100% cast-iron guaranteed method (other than total abstinence) and failures of contraception do occur. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 30 Apr 18 - 06:41 PM Quite true Tattie, and if so, a woman is entitled in my opinion to decide for herself whether or not to terminate the pregnancy. She should also have access to kind and understanding advice and support, completely unconnected with any religious agency and totally non-judgemental. I can well remember when illegal 'backstreet abortions' were the only recourse for desperate women, with all the inherent risks and suffering. There's a very moving film, set in the 1950s, called 'Vera Drake' which deals with this. It's chilling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 02:44 AM "If Trump is lining up his people to do that it would imply he's put his money on there being a YES vote." Sorry - don't understand that His minions have been sent to campaign for a "NO" vote - why should he back something he doesn't want to happen "There was no basis in Irish Law (nor in Catholic doctrine)" You have been given the conclusion of the head of the enquiry into the HALAPPANAVAR TRAGEDY SUBSEQUENT COMMENTS BY SABARATNAM ARULKUMARAN IN 2017 ARULKUMARAN COMMENTED THAT A SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTING FACTOR TO HER DEATH WAS IRELAND'S RESTRICTIVE ABORTION LAW Why should you ignore those conclusions and repeat something that simply is not true? I was brought up in an Irish Catholic environment, (though my father's experiences with the church made him a life-long atheist, he spent his schooldays as an altar boy in Liverpool) - am fully aware of the arcchaic and somewhat hypocritical doctrine regarding human life (fine for the Pope to bless the bombs that were rained down on the Abyssinian people but don't dare interfere with birth from the point of ejaculation of the sperm Simple question - do you believe that the British people have been guilty of mass murder since 1931 - if not, why not? This is the level of argument being put forward of the "NO" campaigners. Thanks to pressure from the Church (The Bishops have put out a statement that a "YES" vote is to agree to euthanasia), Ireland remains in the situation Britain moved away from a dozen years after the end of WWI That same church has been found to have been hiding and even facilitating the rape of children throughout that time and almost certainly for centuries earlier How reliable a guide on sexual matters does that make them, do you think? This is far too important an issue to allow for dishonestly agenda-driven and sloppy argument Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 02:57 AM "Vera Drake" Those cases still occur for Irish girls forced to go to England for terminations but unable to pay the between £425-£1435 fee to acquire a termination. One of the most worrying aspects is the 'schoolyard culture' for girls who try a D.I.Y. approach in order to hide their condition from their parents. Jim Caarroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 01 May 18 - 04:19 AM That's awful Jim. What loving parent would be anything other than helpful and supportive if their daughter was pregnant? No young woman should be driven to such actions for fear of what Mum/Dad might do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 06:38 AM This interesting article from this morning's Irish Times, by one of Ireland's most respected journalists puts the case for a "YES" vote in a nutshell for me "What loving parent" Don't forget those who allowed their children to be locked away in the Magdalene Laundries on the orders of the Priests Sen Jim Carroll Eighth demands punishment for women Fintan Toole I’m not sure people who want to defend the Eighth Amendment to the Consti¬tution know how extreme their position is. Extreme, that is to say, not by the standards of those of us who always opposed it and would like it to be repealed, but even by the standards of mainstream social conservatism. The Eighth is, in one crucial respect, on the lunatic fringe of anti-abortion activism. This is because, as has been made clear in recent years, it does not merely outlaw abortion in all but a very small range of circumstances. It does something else, something that most sensible conservatives regard as repugnant - it demands severe punishment for women who have abortions. There is no way around this: while the Eighth is in place, Ireland is committed to treating abortion, not just as a moral wrong, but as a crime more serious than, for example, child rape. The New York Times columnist Ross Douthat is widely admired by social conservatives in Ireland and cited with approval by the Iona Institute. This is not surprising - as well as being a fine writer, Douthat is a passionate Catholic and fiercely anti-abortion. He supports the church’s position that induced abortion is a very grave sin, an act of homicide. He is as vehement on this as anyone on the anti-repeal side of the Irish argument could want. ‘CRUEL IDEOLOGY’ Abortion rights, to him, are a “cruel ideology that has licensed the killing of millions of innocents” and “a grotesque legal regime in which the most vulnerable human beings can be vacuumed out or dismembered, killed for reasons of eugenics or convenience or any reason at all”. I was struck, therefore, by a column Douthat published on April 7th. It was, in part, about the firing by Atlantic maga¬zine of one of its contributors, Kevin Williamson, because he had, as Douthat put it, “carefully defended the idea of someday prosecuting women who obtain abortions the way we prosecute other forms of homicide”. While broadly supportive of Williamson, Douthat wrote: “From my own anti-abortion perspective, this opinion makes Williamson an extrem¬ist as well. When American laws restricted abortion they generally did not impose such penalties, and today’s pro-life movement likewise generally rejects the idea of prosecuting women.” This is broadly true. Even the US president Donald Trump, in his most inflammatory mode, could not get away with the suggestion that women be punished for having abortions. During his rabble-rousing primary campaign in March 2016, he was asked “Do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or no, as a principle?” He said: “The answer is that there has to be some form of punishment.” And this was regarded, even by most of his fans, as a step too far. Even a vague commitment in principle to “some form of punishment” was too outrageous for Trump’s world of hyperbole, invective and insult. Within hours, he recant¬ed: “The doctor or any other person performing this illegal act upon a woman would be held legally responsible, not the woman.” And yet this view that main¬stream anti-abortion activists regard as “extremist” and that is too intemperate even for Trump, is not just respectable in 64 What the Eighth Amendment requires is blunt: 14 years behind bars for a women who takes an abortion pill Ireland. It is a constitutional imperative. The amendment places Irish law inescapably on the lunatic fringe. It puts the dignity of the State on the same side as the craziest fanatics, the most recklessly provocative shock jocks, the windiest blowhards. It is so far out that if you were to propose what it requires in moderate anti-abortion circles in most parts of the world, people would walk away for fear of being tarnished by your mad zealotry. What the amendment requires is blunt: 14 years behind bars for a women who takes an abortion pill. This is not a throw¬back to Ireland’s dark past. It is a present reality. A little over a year ago, Brid Smith proposed a Private Members’ Bill to replace the 14-year sentence mandated by Irish law with a token €1 fine. The Dáil voted overwhelmingly to keep the 14-year sentence in place. It did so because the advice from the Attorney General was that the amendment left it with no choice: Like high treason This, after all, is the point of the amendment. It elevates abortion above the rest of the criminal law, making it, like high treason, a special crime that demands an especially harsh sentence. And as long as the amendment is there, there is no choice in the matter. Taking those two little pills^ has to be punished more severely than raping a child or wrecking the economy. I’m sure most anti-abortion activists in Ireland don’t really agree with this. Like their American counterparts, they find the idea of brutal punishment for women in these circumstances grotesque and regard those who advocate it as deranged ultras who discredit their cause. But it is the inescapable consequence of the Eighth. If you defend the Eighth, you defend punishment. If you do not defend punishment, you have to get rid of the Eighth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 May 18 - 06:56 AM I am sure that Trump must have some awareness of the extent to which he is held in contempt by most people outside the United States. His support is a poisoned chalice. ................ What the Eighth Amendment actually says: The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Donuel Date: 01 May 18 - 07:06 AM It is reported that drones are flying abortion pills across the border which is a lot better than smuggling coat hangers. Jeff Jeffries |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 01 May 18 - 07:35 AM S all Fintan O'Toole's information is misinformation!!! That should lose him his job here You are still ignoring the points I made - just like the lady who tried to sell me a "No" vote At least she had the good grace to sprint up the path and down the road If I hadn't made my mind up (not being befogged by religion" you've helped me do so Won't bother asking whether the British people are guilty of mass murder again Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Pete from seven stars link Date: 01 May 18 - 07:50 AM Excellent clear reasoning McGraph IMO . I do wonder about a women only vote . How would it work ; all women , or just women of child bearing age , before further objections are raised ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: The Sandman Date: 01 May 18 - 09:25 AM McGRATH, You seem not to have understood my point, the no campaigners are campaigning for something that is undone by the amendment 13, the no campaigners by so doing are facilitating later abortions, Ido not agree with their thinking ,but perhaps they should be campaigning for the removal of the amendment 13,,the ones i have talked to dont even know what amendment 13 is, talk about dogmatic and ignorant[unknowing] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 May 18 - 12:48 PM The eighth amendment says "as far as practicable" The later amendments relate to what is to be seen as practicable. Full wording with those later amendments is The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right. This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state. This subsection shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to such conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Raedwulf Date: 01 May 18 - 04:27 PM So who's pro-abortion? As a possibly irrelevant tangent, an interesting question, Steve. Not so much for what it asks, but how. I have a couple of friends (yes, I do; so there!! :p ), one an adult conversion to RC (& extremely thoroughly grounded in all the theology & dogma, I might add), the other a born again. Both would describe themselves, very definitely, as pro-life & anti-abortion. And, possibly, have used the phrase "pro-abortion" in any discussion that may have occurred. The language is indicative. I would no more describe myself as pro-abortion than I would as pro- or anti-life. As my earlier quote should suggest, I'm pro-choice since, in this instance, the choice affects only the individual (unlike, say legalising cannabis, etc, which has a much wider impact on society). Not my business to poke my nose in, whether my casus belli is religious, moral, ethical, or philosophical. Like you, I don't know anyone who would describe themselves as "pro-ab". And I know I've pointed out ere now (possibly here, probably somewhere else, most likely to one or both of the afore-mentioned friends) that no woman says to herself "You know what, I fancy having an abortion, I think I'll go & get meself knocked up"! I also can't help feeling that anyone who would be completely blasé & unfeeling about having had an abortion would probably also make an utterly dreadful mother... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: The Sandman Date: 01 May 18 - 05:15 PM mc grath , none of which alters the fact that the no side inadvertently encourage later abortion as the law stands at this momemt in time |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 May 18 - 05:20 PM Been here before on this, more than once. The terminology in this debate is shocking. You can be "anti-abortion", no problem with that form of words, but you can't really be "pro-abortion" unless those words are qualified to the absolute limit. I should like to see abortion freely available to all women, no matter what their position in society, but that doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion. Challenge me on that if you dare. "Pro-choice," if you're referring to women's right to choose, is fine. "Pro-life" is simply wicked. It's tendentious, emotional and manipulative, and that's not accidental. The opposite of pro-life is anti-life, or pro-death. The so-called pro-lifers are simply not honest enough to use the appropriate form of words which would characterise their stance, which would be "anti-choice". Doesn't sound quite so good like that, does it? The real answer to reducing abortion, the answer that has somehow escaped the sanctimonious men in frocks, is freely-available contraception, freely-available advice on contraception, good education in schools for relationships (not just sex) and a striving for social equality. But we're going backwards, thanks to social media and the irresponsible proliferation of apps that permit young people to assume the dominance and sense of entitlement of boys over girls sexually. At present, it's a battle we're losing, and we appear to have no strategy to fight back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Tattie Bogle Date: 01 May 18 - 05:23 PM Agreed, Raedwulf, I don't think anyone is "pro-abortion": "pro-choice" yes, but even so, not "abortion on demand". Every woman considering termination of pregnancy is entitled to discuss her views with a trained counsellor (at greater length) as well as her doctors: some then continue to request termination, others change their mind when they realise there are other support mechanisms out there. (I speak from experience of having worked in one of the UK's Brook Advisory Centres during my career.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 May 18 - 07:02 PM It was interesting that in the recent sad case of Alfie Evans the suggestion that the choice of the parents should be accepted was seen as inappropriate by many people posting here. This was evidently on the basis that in this case, since another human being was involved, the interests of that human being should be paramount rather than the choice of the parents. The interests of Alfie, as interpreted by the hospital, being to have artificial support withdrawn, so as to die quickly. Which is in fact precisely the same reason on which the critique of the pro-choice position is based. There is another human being who is affected by the choice, and whose life will be ended. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Raedwulf Date: 01 May 18 - 07:10 PM Not quite sure of your point there, Kevin. There is a profound difference between the abortion of a foetus that is non-viable outside of the womb, or indeed a foetus that is non-viable without massive medical intervention (and where you draw that line, I have no idea!), and Alfie Evans. Who was born and was, inarguably, alive. Clarification? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 May 18 - 07:33 PM There are of course great differences between human beings at various stages of their life. On what basis do we judge that at some stages in their life another person has the right to choose that they should cease to live? Even if that person has very good reasons to make that choice, as is undoubtedly true very often. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 May 18 - 02:48 AM Arguments about when life truly begins or at what point in a pregnancy the foetus becomes a human being, etc., are pointless and they steer us into proposing solutions that aren't solutions at all. The glaringly obvious REAL solution is adopt measures that reduce unwanted pregnancies to vanishingly small numbers. We have to be that ambitious. We do that by making contraception and contraceptive advice freely available, without judgement, and by providing much better education for young people. If you tell people that all contraception is sinful, that abstinence is a virtue and that all sex outside marriage is wrong, then in the next breath condemn abortion, you are nothing less than an unthinking, wicked hypocrite. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 03:27 AM Thanks Steve - that really needed saying Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 May 18 - 03:31 AM Having been close to someone who was involved in advising women about unwanted pregnancies I can only echo most of what has been said above. It is a really tough choice to make and any woman making it should be helped in every way. The advice given should be impartial and complete, detailing the alternatives with the pros and cons of them all. Above all, helping to make the woman make the right choice for her, and supporting her decision in whatever way helps most. I could be casting doubts where there are none but I am not sure whether agencies such as Marie Stopes and BPAS, who profit from abortions, are best suited to give that advice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: The Sandman Date: 02 May 18 - 03:57 AM as an aside I am not entitled to vote unless i pay 1000 euros |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 06:26 AM Wonder if any Brit residents have a comment on the claim put forward by the "NO" crowd that "one in five British pregnancies end in termination" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jon Freeman Date: 02 May 18 - 08:37 AM I don't know and there could be things I'm missing but this is an extract from a report produced by the Office for National Statistics for England and Wales.
Report used is the 2016 report on this page |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 02 May 18 - 03:03 PM Goodness Jon, a fifth of pregnancies terminated! I wonder if those statistics include the 'morning after' pill? I imagine it's terribly hard for any woman to decide to do this, and it must have repercussions for her psychologically in later years. One hopes that abortion clinics provide all the help, information and counselling needed to make things less traumatic. But I still maintain my pro-choice standpoint. Her body, her choice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 03:09 PM "Goodness Jon, a fifth of pregnancies terminated! I wonder if those statistics include the 'morning after' pill?" An article in this morning's Irish Times points out that the figure not only includes the M.A. pill, but also miscarriages. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jon Freeman Date: 02 May 18 - 03:23 PM Id certainly find it incredible that the Office for National Statistics can not discriminate between abortion and miscarriage in it's statistics. Might also debate the MA pill but bottom line is I don't know. I just posted the data I found from a source that I wouldn't have thought getting involved in the "emotional side" in either way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 May 18 - 07:26 PM The conclusion of the article today (the author was uncommitted) simply said that large numbers of miscarriages were being counted as deliberate by the campaigners because there is no freely available data to explain how they occurred Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Tattie Bogle Date: 02 May 18 - 07:55 PM From what I remember of my gynaecology days the rate of spontaneous (i.e. non-induced) miscarriage can be as high as 1/3 of all pregnancies in the first trimester (3 months). And looking at those figures above, not much shift in the % of pregnancies ending in termination of pregnancy.No cause for complacency, of course, but has the "problem" been over-estimated? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 03 May 18 - 03:26 AM I thought that too Tattie. It's a shame they can't provide statistics separated out, to give a clearer picture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 07:17 AM Interesting statement from a Catholic anti abortion group in this morning's Irish version of the English Times this morning reads - "we will not push for an overseas travel ban for terminations" - for me, a spectacular display of NIMBY hypocrisy The Irish Times is running a day to day independent examination of the claims that are being made by both sides of the argument - the percentage of British terminations I posted yesterday was the first - the claim was given a large question mark Today's is on those who travelled abroad for terminations The "YES" supporters claim that 170,000 women have done so since 2006 The figure turns out to be that 170,252 women who did so gave Irish addresses (no figure of how many gave their temporary British address) I watched a fascinating discussion/argument on television last night between to groups representing either side (plus a "NO" Ulster Unionist politician) THe debate (apart from having the effect of me shouting at the television) set into motion a whole line of thought Since the middle of the 19th century, Irish families have been producing children for import The Irish economy has never really recovered from the after-effect of The Famine, the mass evictions, the enforced emigrations, The War of Independence, The Civil War and finally Partition. Lack of work has led to permanent emigration and pressure from the church on issues like abortion and the "godliness" of having children (and the shame of not having them) has led to families far too large to be sustained at home It was a shock to me to realise that I cannot recall meeting an Irish person who either hadn't worked abroad or had a family member who hadn't left Ireland at one time or another to seek work. Back home, I can remember very few people where the opposite was the case Whether we like to admit it or not, society has always had methods of culling itself - the firm favorites have been poverty and war The demands of overpopulation are gradually destroying this planet and making the conditions of some of its people miserable and dangerous to the point of being life-threatening While medical science has increased our life expectancy has led to massive problems of how those advances are shared out (Ireland is in the mifddle of a "cervical cancer" scandal at present - believe Britian has a similar one regarding neurological treatment) Sam Larner, the fisherman summed the answer up perfectly with his old Norfolk rhyme If life were a thing that money could buy, The rich would live and the poor would die It seems to me that managing unwanted pregnancies is the very least we can do to slow down an already out-of-control problem Jim Caarroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 May 18 - 08:51 AM Indeed it is right that reliable ways of preventing unwanted pregnancies should be readily available. There is no restriction on contraceptives, or on advertising their availability and promoting their use in Ireland, and have not been for years. So far as the Catholic Church is involved, most of its members, including many of its clergy, now accept that view. ................. Abortion is a different matter. If one believes that it necessarily involves ending the life of a developing human being, the whole notion of a "right to choose" is placed very much in question. There can be no right to choose the death of one human being, no matter how strong the needs of another human being, except in the case where the survival of that person is at stake. Our freedom of choice in all aspects of life are always limited by the need to recognise that others are affected by our choices. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 09:00 AM "So far as the Catholic Church is involved, most of its members, including many of its clergy, now accept that view." As far as the clergy do, it is a very reluctant acceptance of the inevitable - the church is gradually losing its grip in Ireland If you believe the ending of human life should be outlawed then logically you should be demanding the end to all wars - the obverse is the case "There can be no right to choose the death of one human being" I've just said that - do you agree with what I've just said? If that is really the case with the Anti's why are they accepting that women should be free to travel abroad? Therein lies the hypocrisy If human life is sacred why does that not apply in every aspect of its taking? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 18 - 09:08 AM "If one believes that it necessarily involves ending the life of a developing human being, the whole notion of a "right to choose" is placed very much in question." This is the whole, insoluble problem. You will never get past a state of "belief" about that, one way or the other. We can't progress with that argument. That being so you have to decide what the default has to be. Carry on... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 09:43 AM "That being so you have to decide what the default has to be." Most countries have decided this - including Catholic Italy - the home of The Vatican If the influence of religion were removed from this there would be no question that the few remaining countries who felt the need to change the law would have done so long ago If the church is willing to accept traveling for termination, it can have no possible objection to safe abortions at home As the Church has long lost the right to speak on behalf of the people, the only spokesman left is the individual, given the circumstances today this means it has to be the decision of the couples concerned Apart from acting in an advisory capacity, the church, the state and the press should have no right to speak as bodies on these issues, yet it is they that end up swaying decisions Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 May 18 - 12:52 PM You get the point I've being making, Steve. The view that abortion involves ending a human life, and that it therefore cannot be justified is not one which is only held by the Catholic Church, though it is the basis for its rejection of abortion. It is a view founded on an ethical basis, rather than on religious doctrine. As a Jim days, logically the belief that the ending of life should be outlawed does indeed imply a rejection of war, as also of capital punishment. In the case of Ireland there are constitutional barriers against any involvement of Ireland in any European defence force, as compromising its sustained commitment neutrality, and also a bar on any move towards reintroducing the death penalty. Both these are based on popular referendums. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 01:20 PM " In the case of Ireland there are constitutional barriers against any involvement of Ireland in any European defence force, as compromising its sustained commitment neutrality" I was pointing out the anomalies of those arguing against abortion, not the practice of the state Mac. The arguments put forward by them about the sanctity of human life must extend to supporting of the killing of adults We both know that the situation is far more complicated than that simplistic argument, yet it is the only one being used to keep the 8th. My father regarded himself as a pacifist, yet he went to Spain to kill fascists because he believed it would save life in the future There is no reason as far as I can see that those 'double standards' don't apply here Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 May 18 - 02:32 PM I wholly agree that the principle of "the sanctity of life" has to extend to all human life, and that is the basis of my views about abortion. My point was that in the case of Ireland at any rate that principle is essentially accepted by the same constitution that resists abortion, and on the same basis. I accept that there is a case for arguing that an exception can be made where human lives are threatened by the actions of other humans, as in the case of your father's decision - but I do not see that an analogous exception is justifiable in regard to abortion, where serious problems are seen as caused by the continued life of a developing human. The fact is that some people may be inconsistent or hypocritical on all sides in any controversy. It is not in itself relevant. A Wikipedia entry puts it well "Ad hominem, short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 03:01 PM My father made a choice - you would deprive half the planet of such a choice If we don't sort ourselves out regarding laws created by mystics we stand to leaving those who follow us an uninhabitable planet Regarding the present generation, quality and viability of life has to be a factor in all this I spent thirty years recording Irish travellers and observed close-up the conditions brought about by church ruling on contraception Once the world is free of this superstitious influence we may be able to discuss this rationally but in the meantime, I believe it is criminal to continue as we are. As somebody said earlier - those who advocate making abortion illegal should offer to take on the responsibility of the children their beliefs produce Make your own choice by all means, but as far as a practice now common through a large part of the world is concerned - it is none of our business - unless you come out and accuse those taking advantage of the laws "murderers" It's only when a country living in the first half of the twentieth century decides to change the laws that this matter becomes an issue If abortion is so bad - why isn't it bad in countries that have it - and why aren't these people on the streets every day trying to prevent it |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: robomatic Date: 03 May 18 - 06:48 PM I had an odd call within the last fortnight. Picked up the ringing phone and a female voice started asking me if I participated in the abortion debate (This of course occurred where I reside in North America). I had a sense of where this was going and the presence of mind to say: "First, let me ask you a question. Do you favor the aborting of a fetus that is the product of rape?" "Yes." said the voice. "Then", I said, "you favor abortion." -click- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 May 18 - 07:16 PM Sorry Robo - didn't understand a word of that - was the "click" yours or the callers ? My experience of callers coincided with Billy Connolly's old joke - "if you want to confuse a policeman ask him a question" After listening to the usual nonsense about "poor dead babies" I asked how she felt about contraception - don't think I have seen anybody sprint away as quickly since the last Olympics These people seem to work from a tightly scripted approach - go off-script and you've lost them I have seen horrific encounters with young women (not much more than girls)outside family planning clinics, who have been driven away from seeking advice in tears by strident mobs This decision needs to be taken out of the hands of mystics and fanatical zealots Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 18 - 08:16 PM "...where serious problems are seen as caused by the continued life of a developing human." The whole problem is that your form of words is thoroughly tendentious, leaning heavily towards an anti-all-abortion position. "Continued life." "Developing human." These are terms which can neither be argued for nor argued against. At least you avoided saying "serious inconveniences." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 18 - 08:57 PM So, Robomatic, you set your caller what you think was a clever booby-trap. You posed them a question to which there is not a correct answer. Had they had a little more presence of mind they would have told you that no-one on the planet "favours" a painful, psychologically-traumatic procedure. This is not about "favouring" or not "favouring" abortion. It is not about polarising people's opinions in a divisive manner, which your "clever" question was attempting to do. It's about finding a way of reducing unwanted pregnancies to the most humanly-possible minimum. And while we work with good will towards that end (I'll refrain from revisiting my usual mantra yet again) we'd do well to remember that banning or restricting legal abortion will do nothing to stop abortions and everything to increase misery, ill-health, mortality rates and poverty for thousands of women who we have all serially let down. It would also help if we remembered who owns the bodies we are talking about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 May 18 - 09:34 PM Sorry if see me as tendentious, Steve. I'm trying to avoid the kind of words that can divert and prevent honest discussion, such as "unborn child". I think that "developing human" is a reasonable term, and so is “continued life". I don’t see why there is any reason to argue for them or against them. It is very hard in this context to find neutral terminology. I didn’t say "serious inconveniences" because I am fully aware that in a great number of abortions the problems which an unwanted pregnancy involve for the mother are extremely serious. In no way am I minimising them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 May 18 - 09:57 PM I wasn't trying to read any motives in your wording. It is an issue beset with the near-impossibility of using neutral language, and the slightest suspected nuance can raise hackles. We can talk about the foetus in the womb, we can talk about its potential viability in the later stages of pregnancy and we can generally do our best to be dispassionate. I'm not saying that it's wrong to regard the foetus as a human life, etc., but those words in the context of a discussion about abortion feed into the passions of anti-abortionists. My starting point is that no sane person, knowing what's involved, can possibly be "pro-abortion." Once we adopt that starting point we can start to discuss how we can reduce the incidence of unwanted pregnancies. You can't stop abortion using the blunt instrument of the law. That much we know from history. So we shouldn't even try. There's a better way but it's harder and it's more costly. But we can't measure costliness in just money terms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 May 18 - 07:54 PM I'm largely in agreement with a lot of what you say there, Steve. In the context of England (and very likely America) I'd see attempts to roll back abortion legislation as a mistake, a cul de sac. The emphasis should be on reducing the pressures that can force many women to turn to abortion, and also finding ways to reduce unwanted pregnancies. So I see providing adequate financial and other support as essential, and I find it incomprehensible when I read about anyone who combines opposition to abortion with support for right-wing anti-welfare policies. I believe that a very high proportion of abortions in all countries are not a matter of free choice, but of reluctant decisions forced on women by economic and other pressures. Fighting to get rid of those kind of pressures is something that should provide common ground for sincere people whether they identify as "pro-choice" or as "pro-life". If I was in Ireland I'd probably vote for the status quo, to retain the constitutional guarantee that the mother and "the unborn child" should have an equal right to life. The thing is, that is what I fundamentally believe to be true. As I've said, I think that ideally this is one issue where it would be better if the decision rested with women, rather than with the electorate as a whole, but that's not how it works. But it seems right to me that a country has a right to determine its majority view on this. In England, though we've never had a public consultation on this, it is pretty clear that there is popular support for abortion to be available relatively readily. In a few weeks we'll see whether there is still support for the view that was favoured in the previous two referendums about this, or whether things have changed. (I feel differently about referendums from you Steve...). After it's over, whichever way it goes, there will still be the need for the kind of things I mentioned in the first paragraph. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: robomatic Date: 04 May 18 - 08:13 PM I apologize if I did not make myself clear. The 'click' was my interlocutor, who was obviously an anti-abortion advocate of some kind, hanging up on me as a lost cause. I think it is hypocritical to campaign against abortion while holding that abortion is permissible in cases of rape or incest. Abortion is not simple and not to be taken lightly. I don't think it is taken lightly by anyone despite the term "abortion on demand" which seems to be used to convince people that proponents hold human life cheap. Abortions are also natural occurrences that happen to many women in the course of their pregnancies. You can argue they were performed by God. While some occur so early in term that they are barely noticed, many are non trivial and leave emotional wounds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 18 - 08:23 PM "Fighting to get rid of those kind of pressures is something that should provide common ground for sincere people whether they identify as "pro-choice" or as "pro-life"." Pie in the Sky lads - the gap between haves and have-nots on this planet is RAPIDLY WIDENING If changes are ever brought about it will take generations to do so One of the main causes of STARVATION and DEATH today in the poorer countries is overpopulation Always assuming that those campaigning for a "NO" vote care enough to do something about the causes of poverty - the church certainly dosn't - many millions will be dead before the surface is even scratched - not so much do- goodism - rather, do nothing Sorry - this is exactly what I mean when I described this campaign against abortion as hypocritical - you are inflicting indifference on the most vulnerable on the planet by allowing forbidding countries who most need help to achieve what Britain did decades ago Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Raedwulf Date: 05 May 18 - 04:07 AM Kevin - try "foetus". That is what it is. It is NOT a 'developing human". A potential human, perhaps. But all sorts of things may end its existence (not 'life', you will note, because it is not independently alive) before it stops being 'potential'. Someone above, I think, commented on the number of pregnancies that fail in the first trimester, for example. Steve says it absolutely perfectly - It is an issue beset with the near-impossibility of using neutral language, and the slightest suspected nuance can raise hackles. You are not neutral in your choice of language at all. You would have done far better had you said "undeveloped" or "under-developed", because that is the state of affairs at the point of abortion. But language like that doesn't elicit an emotional reaction in favour of your viewpoint, does it? Let's be perfectly clear about this. Whether the abortion is human-induced or 'natural' (a 'normal' miscarriage, the mother miscarries as result of violence or traumatic accident, etc), the foetus is not fully alive. It cannot survive outside of the womb. Its existence ends. The potential stops without ever being developed. "Developing" is a biased word with deliberate implications & you know it. A foetus is not a human. What surprises me is that you apparently think no-one on Mudcat will spot this. You ought know better by now, sir! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 04:10 AM I asked some time ago whether those again pregnancy termination as happens in Britain is murder - I received no reply I would be grateful for one Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 04:37 AM I would be so happy to see contraception advice and abortion become freely available in Third World countries. Condom use would protect somewhat from HIV, and free, medically administered abortion would prevent the horrendous methods in use (primitive, dangerous and wholly abhorrent, involving sharp sticks, abortifacients made from strange substances and poisonous plants and so on.) I have myself seen the exhaustion, the swarms of children with pot bellies, the emaciated women pregnant again. It breaks the heart. And the reason for the reluctance to condone pregnancy control is mainly the Muslim or Roman Catholic religious leaders who utterly forbid it. And the inherent misogyny in their cultures of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 06:44 AM "I would be so happy to see contraception advice and abortion become freely available in Third World countries" I agree entirely, but it's not as easy as that Sen, certainly not in Ireland Although the church now accepts (reluctantly) the use of contraception, you have to now overcome the mindset that dates back centuries that has made it an evil sin This is especially true of non-literate Travellers who have sometimes up to fifteen or sixteen children and still regard what they have been taught as gospel Changing that is not going to happen in our lifetime - in the meantime the consequences of people having children thaey simply cannot afford will continue Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 07:23 AM I do hope you weren't thinking I was classing Ireland as a Third World country Jim. My experience is only in W Africa, and among the prisoners' womenfolk I came across while trying to help them. You're quite right that 'it isn't as easy as that' to change deeply-held cultural and religious beliefs and traditions. But my husband tells me that among the younger folk in Abidjan (quite a large and more modern city than the primitive villages in the bush) many women are now on the Pill, and insist on condom use, because quite rightly they're terrified of getting HIV. He also related to me this morning some horrendous tales of botched back street abortions, resulting in death. And the sad thing is young, teenage girls prostitute themselves to gain money to help their parents feed the endless throng of children in the household. I have to say though that I do see McGrath's point about a foetus being a human life. I've been trying to imagine what I would have done if I had had to deal with an unwanted pregnancy in my youth. (I have never been pregnant so it's hard to imagine) I wonder if I could have aborted it. Actually, it would have been a dreadful dilemma... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 08:39 AM "I do hope you weren't thinking I was classing Ireland as a Third World country Jim. " No I wasn't Sen (but according to Stephen Fry' definition (Q.U.), technically it is In many ways, Ireland shares many of the problems of Third World Countries as, for centuries, it has been restricted from developing its own culture due to outside influences and the role played by the church in being allowed to make the rules on basic issues (childbirth being only one) has actually acted as a brake on tackling problems in a rational, rather than a doctrinal enforced way. Cross religion marriage, homosexuality and the position of women in society are three issues that are gradually being tackled - women's control over her body has yet to leave the stable, let alone the starting box. I don't know the position in your husband's part of the work, but I do know I'd love to sit down with the pair of you over a pint if we ever made it back to Norfolk Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 18 - 11:39 AM I can't see how being dependant on someone else is a necessary criterion for being a human. After all, following birth we are all totally dependant on others to survive and to continue developing. And I cannot see how "developing" can be seen as a biased word, whether in regard to an embryo, a foetus or a baby. It' s all part of the same process - and of course it can go wrong at any stage, there is no guarantee of surviving, even after birth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 01:53 PM What a lovely idea Jim! We have a dear little pub in our village called The Fox. As long as you don't mind my husband drinking lemonade (Muslim) Mine's a half of Guinness or bitter! My mother was from Cork, as I may have said before on other threads. And I used to go to Mass with my Irish cousin, proudly sporting one of her lace mantillas and happily joining in with the Latin. (It was VERY long ago!) But I personally have never been to Ireland. Funnily enough, our window cleaner was here yesterday and had just got back from a long weekend in Dublin. He said it was absolutely fabulous, and the Irish were so friendly and kind. I'm most interested in cultural influences in various lands, as I think they (and religion of course) more or less control the behaviour and mind-sets of the population. Therefore it's extremely difficult to effect change. It takes time, slogging away around the edges eroding bit by bit the entrenched mores . But at the centre of any policies must be the welfare of the women concerned. Denying them what women all over the civilised world have the right to is very unfair and cruel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 18 - 01:56 PM I wondered if you knew one of my hero's Tom Paine's pub in Thetford Always wanted to visit there Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 03:41 PM Thetford is rather far from ours Jim. But Tom Paine's looks as if it has a very good reputation as a hotel and pub. I used to smile when my pupils (all very 'Norfolk') pronounced it Thet-thord Thorest. They often turned an 'f' into a 'th'. Leftover from the old Anglo-Saxon! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Thompson Date: 05 May 18 - 04:44 PM Northern Ireland is even more fundamentalist in opposition to abortion than the Republic of Ireland. Travelling to Northern Ireland for an abortion would not be an option. Hard to say which way the vote will go - there is a very deep urban-rural divide on this referendum, with the urban population generally wishing to repeal the amendment and allow (limited) abortion in the Republic, and the rural population wishing to keep the amendment. There's also the pot-stirring of fundamentalist groups in the United States and in Britain which have, among other activities, bought various websites with names related to repealing the 8th, and used them to redirect web browsers to their anti-choice sites. The streets of Dublin are garlanded with posters - on the No (keep the amendment which gives equal value to a foetus and a woman) side featuring either bloody images of foetuses or adorable images of babies; on the Yes (repeal the amendment) side featuring messages about trusting and respecting women. Leafleting in favour of repealing the amendment is interesting - you get called a murderer or reproached for doing harm by some people (mainly men), and quietly thanked by others, and sometimes told stories about women's own experience - or, yesterday, the experience of a young woman's great-aunt… |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Raedwulf Date: 05 May 18 - 04:56 PM Ummm... I'm not the world's greatest expert on A/S, Sen, but I'm not aware of any relation between 'th' and 'f'; between f, v, & w, yes, but not th. And forest, of course, comes to us, via old French, from Latin, so isn't an A/S word (though I realise you're commenting on the pronunciation rather than the etymology). Ford is English & directly related to Dutch voorde (f-v-w, but not th). Your 'th' may be dialect (and I don't dispute that you've heard the substitution), but I don't fink (sic) it's a holdover from A/S. Incidentally, the accent & pronunciation that is said to be closest to A/S is, I believe, Leicestershire... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Thompson Date: 05 May 18 - 05:03 PM Cockneys do change th into f - tis well I remember overhearing two children aged about three in a London playground - one Irish, the other a Londoner - discussing the question. The Irish kid said he had tree sweets, and the London kid corrected him, saying "It's not 'tree', it's 'free'"! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 05 May 18 - 05:35 PM What I meant was that there were many words in Anglo-Saxon with the 'th' sound. (I believe it was written like a 'd' with a hook across the top and a cross through it) Here in Norfolk we have many village names ending in Thorpe (meaning a settlement) I was born and raised in W London, and our speech was very Cockney. My father used to fume when we spoke of 'fruppence' or Fursday'. I'd never come across 'thorest' or 'Good Thriday' until I arrived in Norfolk (40 years ago) It still makes me smile. I simply adore accents, dialects and languages. My fav subjects at Uni were not the Majors of Eng Lit and French, but the subsidiary ones of Phonetics, Linguistics and Anthropology. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Thompson Date: 05 May 18 - 05:46 PM Oh yeah, of course. That letter was called "thorn". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Raedwulf Date: 05 May 18 - 05:50 PM Are you being deliberately obtuse, Kevin? A baby is alive. It can be cared for by anyone or anything (there are many documented cases of feral children). Now kill the mother & rip the foetus from the womb... There is actually a wiki page under the heading of "Fetal Viability", so I shall quote, cos it's easier (and more reliable than me waffling!). "The United States Supreme Court stated in Roe v. Wade (1973) that viability (i.e., the "interim point at which the foetus becomes ... potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid") "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks." Note "potentially able to live... with artificial aid". "According to studies between 2003 and 2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive. It is rare for a baby weighing less than 500 g (17.6 ounces) to survive. A baby's chances for survival increases 3-4% per day between 23 and 24 weeks..." Again, this is with artificial aid. Chances for a 23 week foetus in a wholly natural setting? Much less, I imagine. "In 2002, the U.S. Government enacted the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act. Whereas a foetus may be viable or not viable in utero, this law provides a legal definition for personal human life when not in utero. It defines "born alive" as "the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles" and specifies that any of these is the action of a living human person. While the implications of this law for defining viability in medicine may not be fully explored, in practice doctors and nurses are advised not to resuscitate such persons with gestational age of 22 weeks or less, under 400 g weight..." One presumes, then, that under 22 weeks, US law would not regard the ex utero foetus as either alive, or human. And I am sure that you knew that was the point I was making - before a certain, somewhat variable, point, a foetus is not independently alive & will die regardless of any intervention. Not 'dependent' in any other sense; you are being tendentious again. "The limit of viability is the gestational age at which a prematurely born fetus/infant has a 50% chance of long-term survival outside its mother's womb. With the support of neonatal intensive care units, the limit of viability in the developed world has declined since 50 years ago, but has remained unchanged since the late 90s. Currently, the limit of viability is considered to be around 24 weeks, although the incidence of major disabilities remains high at this point. Neo-natologists generally would not provide intensive care at 23 weeks, but would from 26 weeks." My point remains as it was. "Developing human" is not neutral language, any more than calling someone "pro-abortion" is neutral. You are trying to provoke an emotional response in your favour. A 20 week foetus ex utero is not human, it cannot live independently, it WILL die, notwithstanding any currently available medical intervention (the earliest surviving premature births are 21w-4d to 21w-6d, and more than one of those has serious health issues which are, apparently & unsurprisingly, more likely to occur the more premature the birth). Finally, as per the above, the US seems to regard abortion as being permissible up to 24 weeks. State vs Federal law makes this a bit awkward to be certain of. It's also worth noting that US abortion law is described as being about the most liberal in the world, but actual provision / availability is pretty poor, because of State independence. In the UK, there is definitely a limit of 24 weeks for termination. I make no comment about the overlap between 21.5 weeks & 24 weeks - that's the "where is the line drawn" problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Thompson Date: 05 May 18 - 06:05 PM When you come right down to it, the vote on allowing women to make their own choices is a clear vote on whether we want a patriarchy or want an equal society where women are grown-ups and can make their own decisions. The referendum in Ireland is not quite there yet, even if it passes and the 8th Amendment is repealed - a woman will still have to get the okay of doctors for any abortion after 12 weeks. A woman pregnant with a foetus that is found to have Down's syndrome will be condemned to carry it to term and give birth and bring up the baby. Which surely should be a woman's own choice. With Irishwomen getting pregnant at much later ages than previously, Down's syndrome is a real risk. A 20-year-old woman has a 1 in 1,500 risk of having a baby with Down's syndrome. A 45-year-old woman has a 1 in 50 risk or greater. About one in 100 women with a previous baby with Down's syndrome will have another. The standard screening test for Down's is done between 10 and 20 weeks into a pregnancy. However, where possible, it is usually completed by 14 weeks and 2 days of pregnancy. In other words, far too late for the 12-week cut-off point for abortion on request that is proposed by the repeal amendment. And that's assuming that all women have regular enough periods to know that they are definitely pregnant at that early stage. (I have a friend who bled slightly every month of her pregnancy; she thought she was having light periods…) Now, people are saying it would be a rotten thing to do to have an abortion because the foetus had two X chromosomes and so had Down's syndrome. I completely feel that once a baby is born, it's yours to love and value no matter what. But to force women to continue a pregnancy because of a principle that it is considered wrong to abort a foetus that's going to suffer from a severe disability - that seems wrong to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Raedwulf Date: 05 May 18 - 06:17 PM Indeed, Sen. I love language, accents, dialect too. And, being Eas' Lunnon myself originally (though not, technically, a cockney), I am well aware of the lazy f (hence my 'fink (sic)' above). But I don't think that stems from A/S. I can't think of any words, off the top of my head, where an A/S th has morphed into a modern f. Half-right, Thompson. Thorn (Þ / þ) is one, but there is also Eth (Ð / ð), Eth being the softer 'th'. Given her description, I think Sen is probably thinking of Eth, rather than Thorn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 18 - 06:26 PM I'm not being obtuse, Raedwulf. It's just that we fundamentally disagree. I don't think human life begins at birth, I think a human foetus is every bit as much alive as a baby. And I believe it is as fully human as you and I are, just at an earlier stage of development. I quite appreciate that we do not agree on that. Before birth we are entirely dependant on our mother to stay alive. After birth it is possible for others to provide this. But the dependency is still absolute. That's a different situation, but the difference does not alter the basic situation. And in both cases I believe there is a duty to ensure that the support needed is provided. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Thompson Date: 05 May 18 - 06:35 PM Thanks, Raedwulf! I knew about thorn but not about eth! And if there's one thing that maddens me it's people replacing one with the other - at the moment a fashion has grown up in Ireland to pronounce the county of Louth - always heretofore pronounced with a hard dh sound at the end - with a soft th sound (I think there's an English county that is so pronounced, but it's not correct to do so for the Irish county). The dis, dat dese and dose sounds often made by Irish speakers of English probably come from the Irish way of sounding d and t in the Irish language (Gaelic, as modern English people (though not Elizabeth I) and Americans call it). In Irish, d and t are sounded as in French, with a softer sound that's between t and th and d and dh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Thompson Date: 05 May 18 - 06:39 PM This news piece about the Tuam mother-and-baby home gives a good idea of the position of women in Ireland until very recently - and still, in remote rural places. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Raedwulf Date: 05 May 18 - 06:39 PM Fair enough! :) Although you were definitely being obtuse - you were deliberately interpreting "dependent" in the way you wanted to, knowing full well that that wasn't what I meant. Whatever labels anyone might try to slap on you, 'stupid' would never stick. Not letting you get away with that one! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Raedwulf Date: 05 May 18 - 06:59 PM The previous being directed at McGrath, not Thompson, obviously (I hope!). I never have got my head round written Gaelic, Thompson. There are funny-bunnies in A/S - cg is pronounced as modern dg, so ecg is edge, sc is pronounced sh, and only context will tell you whether scip means ship or sheep! But as far as I've ever got with written Gaelic / Erse / call it what you will is... It ain't pronounced what it looks like in English!! :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 May 18 - 07:51 PM Fully dependent to me means, without it you die. I honestly can't see what else it can mean, Obviously there are differences in how your needs are met, but I can't see that they alter the main point. Take away the support you need and it’s curtains. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Thompson Date: 06 May 18 - 02:23 AM Raedwulf, no, Irish doesn't use the same spelling conventions as English. As for pregnancy, dependency, etc… it's a question more worried-about by men, in my experience. Women tend to get on with it, whether it's cooking the foetus up till it becomes a baby or regretfully saying "Not this time." And to any of the men counting these angels on the tip of this needle all I can say is, if you ever chance to become pregnant, I will support you in your decision whatever it is. As I walk in to the polling station (in my local national school, run by the Catholic parish but funded by the State), the woman I will be thinking of most will be the mother of two children who died, and whose body was kept on life support in an Irish hospital, gradually rotting, until the heartbeat of the foetus it contained finally slowed and stopped, and her husband and children were allowed to take her corpse away and bury her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 18 - 03:07 AM "The Irish Language" A story I always tell when the subject comes up My father was a (reluctant) navvy who became so appalled at the conditions on the sites that he campaigned constantly for their improvement He left the road when my twin sisters were born and rejoined his family on a housing estate outside Liverpool, but he never lost contact with many of his former workmates who constantly asked his advice on improving conditions A gang of them working not too far from our home asked him if he could arrange a joint meeting with others working in the area, so he approached a sympathetic priest in our town and requested the use of the church hall - the priest agreed and a meeting was arranged - this was around the time the Catholic Church had taken up the new game of Bingo as a way of raising money for the parishes. My father came home from the meeting and told us about what he had seen - he said: "There's a new game going on in St Columba's; the priest stands in the front and shouts out numbers, and those who have the right numbers on their cards win a prize. He shouts the numbers out in Irish so the Protestants can't win" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Thompson Date: 06 May 18 - 05:08 AM Heh, funny - though any Protestant educated in Ireland from 1922 on (and many before that) would certainly have learned Irish. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 May 18 - 06:29 AM In Liverpool and after partition in the six Counties Irish-speaking became an identification of "which foot you kicked with" Research by of a friend of mine showed that which Irish Mussic you played and listened to was the same It was not always true of parts of rural Ireland of course Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 May 18 - 11:33 AM Irish and Welsh both have significantly different spelling conventions from English - but once these have been learned, they are both in fact more regular in their spelling and pronunciation than English (at least that is true in modern Irish, after the spelling reform), |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Thompson Date: 06 May 18 - 12:13 PM Certainly true of pre-spelling-reform Irish, which would also let you know the origin of a word through it's spelling - the modern 'Iarla' (earl) was the pre-spelling reform 'Iarfhlaith' - meaning earl, but literally sub-prince. Just went out canvassing again; a surprising number of undecideds, as well as one kid who thought he was too late to register to vote (he isn't - closing is Tuesday). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Raedwulf Date: 06 May 18 - 04:24 PM I imagine that Gaelic of whichever branch has far less loan words & outside influences than English - it's more regular because it's 'purer', in other words. The Anglo-Saxon has been heavily modified by Latin & French in particular; various Indian borrowings I think come next. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: robomatic Date: 06 May 18 - 06:24 PM When I flew in to Shannon airport with my bike, I was lucky enough to spend my first day peddling 'round Eire with an Irish kid from the west coast who clued me in to what the Gaeltacht was and sort of how to pronounce the Irish part of the street signs. He'd gone to an Irish immersion school and the world of the Irish language was a fresh discovery for him as well as me. The modern world has made the 'purity' concept of many insular tongues of doubtful use. You're probably gonna get loan words for new treats like bananas and avocados and new inventions like tractors and robots. And the word for robot in all other languages is borrowed from the Slavic root of the verb 'to work' courtesy of Playwright Karel Capek. Even a language with over a hundred million speakers is going to show extensive inter-relationships due to the modern world. Russian for example borrowed the words for 'communism' and 'socialism' from English. And we all get Democracy from the Greeks, more specifically, the Athenians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: The Sandman Date: 06 May 18 - 06:47 PM "I don't think human life begins at birth, I think a human foetus is every bit as much alive as a baby." you can think what you like, some people think the earth is flat , that does not make them correct, people are entitle to opinions incluing opinions not based on fact |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 02:55 PM Sorry, I've been a bit poorly (Ok again now), and this is one of the several threads that I kicked out of my sickbed for a few days. "As I've said, I think that ideally this is one issue where it would be better if the decision rested with women, rather than with the electorate as a whole..." I even have a massive problem with this. Arbitrarily excluding half the population from a referendum is highly contentious. There are very many men, fathers, family men, siblings and the like who have far more direct involvement, physical and emotional as well as via providing financial and other security, with the wellbeing of the women they love and the children those women bear than many women ever experience in their own lives. There are many women such as nuns and other celibates, women in same-sex relationships and so on, who have never had those same ties that might lead to their looking after their own children. I've been very close to three tragedies in my personal life that touch on both spontaneous late abortion and elective abortion, so I know a thing or two. Tell me that rules me out of being "objective" and I might just have to tell you where to go. Yet in Ireland you'd deprive me of a vote, whereas lifetime nuns, elderly women decades past their childbearing years who have lived through an era of drastic change and never-married women would all get their say? Wow. By the way, this afternoon I had to use a needle to get a splinter out of my thumb, and there was a drop of blood. Every one of those blood cells was just as much alive as the rest of me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 18 - 04:52 PM But it wasn't going to grow up and be a person, Steve. Quite a difference. As for voting, well, a women only vote is a very hypothetical issue. The thing is, it so often gets urged that men have no business getting into this kind of discussion that it's nice to imagine taking that to its logical conclusion. After all, no man is ever going to get pregnant, and I've never heard anyone arguing for a right-to-choose to apply in respect of the father. But in any case, there isn't any likelihood of any place having a women-only vote on this. Anyway, I hope you're better Steve, especially now we’ve got some better weather. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 05:15 PM We haven't had better weather here at all, Kevin. Every one of those hot, sunshiny days that you've just had saw Bude shrouded in sea fog. On one day when you were getting 28 degrees, we got eleven. Thanks for the good wishes anyway. I'm back to my usual robust self now, glass in hand for the first time in a week! No nun, elderly woman or most women in same-sex relationships or simply not in any sexual relationship at all will get pregnant either. Yet you'd have them voting, yet not any man? Can't think of a more divisive policy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 18 - 05:29 PM Most elderly ladies will likely have been pregnant some time in their lives. And as for nuns and lesbians, well, it all depends on events. After a long time of men running the show, I'd be happy to have women doing it for a few generations. I doubt if they'd do better, but who knows? They couldn’t do worse. But it ain't going to happen, so don't worry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 06:32 PM Well we can agree on that much! Who was it who said, shall there be womanly times or shall we die? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Senoufou Date: 09 May 18 - 06:44 PM I believe it was Ian McEwan Steve. Sorry you've been poorly, and glad you're feeling better now. As an elderly, childless woman I'd be glad to be able to vote, and to support childbearing women who seek the freedom to choose for themselves on the subject of abortion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 07:34 PM I'm an elderly (getting on for) man who's never had a baby ...wonder where that leaves me then... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Steve Shaw Date: 09 May 18 - 07:51 PM I'm not trying to be flippant, just making the point that there is a huge spectrum of valid opinion on this topic that crosses gender boundaries. It isn't just men controlling women, though there's been a significant element of that for just about all time, although, in some western countries at least, it's diminishing. Even badly-misguided people are entitled to their opinions, though I feel that they are not entitled to beat vulnerable women round the head with those opinions. I'd include those people who are religious zealots and those who think it's valid to use photos of bleeding foetuses, etc., in their street campaigns. It isn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 18 - 10:13 PM Of course the whole matter of "the right to choose" is one where men are in a sense always on the sideline, since it isn’t a right that can ever apply to them. The question whether such a right can exist is at the heart of this debate. Only if it is false to say that abortion entails ending the life of a human being can such a right exist. Of course many would say that it is false to say a human life is ended in an abortion. In that case, and only in that case, other matters become relevant, such as, what, if any, limits should there be on that right. There is another way of approaching it, which is purely utilitarian. Leave aside talk of abstractions like human rights, whether a "right to choose" or a "right to life", or any talk about ethics, and try to work out what legal structure relating to pregnancy are on balance better for society. That's not an approach with which I have ever been comfortable with, in any context, though I can see why some people like it. And of course it’s not the approach taken by campaigners in this referendum on either side, so far as I can see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 03:21 AM "the right to choose" Maybe "taking responsibility for the consequences for any choice made" is a more suitable term I've often thought that legally impelling men to take the same level of responsibility for children as women have to do biologically would act as an extremely effective method of contraception I am appalled at the level of intervention of the Clergy in this referendum - bishops pontificating on euthanasia and Priests allowing so-called "Pro-Life" lay guest-speakers to sermonise at church services This is an example of the oldest weapon in the religious arsenal in the war to control minds - spiritual blackmail Not only is it undemocratic - from the point of view of the church, should the vote go as I feel it should and support repeal of the amendment, it will have damaged people's trust in religion and church authority every bit as much as has Clerical abuse and their stance on single-sex marriage Maybe that is a good thing but I, as an atheist, feel it should not happen that way People should be allowed to come to their own conclusions on religion by the use of logic, not disastrous, divisive and often extremely nasty campaigns such as this has become Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Thompson Date: 10 May 18 - 04:10 AM There's an interesting Channel 4 news film currently in which a reporter investigates why the 'No' side (for retaining the 8th Amendment and keeping abortion illegal) are so secretive about their foreign funding. Probably no point in linking it here, where people outside Europe won't be able to see it. Thing is, if the 8th Amendment is retained, we are voting to retain the Ireland in which the Catholic Church sold babies to foreign couples for adoption; incarcerated pregnant girls and their babies - many girls into womanhood and old age (in at least one of these the bodies of the many, many babies who died were stuffed into the sewers); ran reformatories for boys and girls using systems of unspeakable cruelty and depriving their prisoners of all education; its members raped children and then were protected by senior clerics all the way up to the Vatican; ran schools where children were indoctrinated - and forced parents to baptise their children as Catholics if they wanted the children educated. If we vote to get rid of this amendment, so that girls and women can (largely) make their own decisions about whether to remain pregnant or not, we vote for a non-sectarian Ireland. We vote to throw off the cruel reign of the Catholic Church, which has done such harm in Ireland. Voting cards arrive today… |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 May 18 - 05:09 AM The fight is hotting up in the press this morning Today's Irish Times carries articles about Google's ban on advertising on the issue by foreign anti-abortion organisations - and this from the former Taaoiseach Jim Carroll MARTIN CRITICISES "DISHONEST AND OFFENSIVE9 ANTI-ABORTION CAMPAIGN MEMBERS Fianna Fáil leader says the Eighth Amendment ‘cruelly insensitive' to women Sarah Bardon; Political Reporter Fianna Fail leader Micheál Martin has criticised “dishonest and offensive” campaigning by some anti-abortion groups, claiming they are deliberately spreading inaccuracies about what a Yes vote in the May 25th referendum will mean. Mr Martin rejected the suggestion that repealing the Eighth Amendment would lead to unlimited abortions or late-term terminations. He said that where there was a viable pregnancy, there would be a delivery and he noted that obstetricians agreed on this point. “It has also been suggested that the limits and régulations proposed in the legislation can't be trusted and that effectively there will be no limits. This is entirely wrong,” he added. “We should .all remember that five years ago many people claimed that abortion on demand was being introduced because limits in that legislation wouldn’t be respected. Those claims turned out to be false.”…. The Fianna Fáil leader said empathy was no longer enough for women and that people’s views and. feelings on difficult cases needed to be translated into a legal context and framework. Terminations within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy was the only legal mechanism to legislate the cases of rape, incest and fatal Féotal Abnormality, he said, adding that these hard cases would not go away. Mr Martin said voting No would retain the status quo and “a system cruelly insensitive to women” and one that “compounds original traumas with further traumas”. He was questioned at the event by the woman in the ‘D’ case, Deirdre Conroy, who went to the European Court of Human Rights in 2005 arguing that her human rights had been violated when she was denied an abortion in the State. She asked would Fianna Fáil, if in government, facilitate another referendum if there is a No vote on May 25th. Mr Martin said he believed there would be a Yes vote and that contemplating another referendum was not a “debate he was prepared to enter into” He said he would respect the outcome of the referendum and urged others to do likewise. The Cork South-Central TD is one of a small number of his parliamentary party who supports repealing the Eighth Amendment and allowing access to terminations up to the 12th week of pregnancy. Asked if he believed party members opposed to repeal would try to block the laws that follow in the event of a Yes vote, Mr Martin said he believed a Yes vote would be significant catalyst in ensuring the legislation is passed. He said many members of his party had privately told him they would not stand in the way of the legislation being enacted if the amendment is repealed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Iains Date: 10 May 18 - 05:46 AM I was talking to my two daughters yesterday. Both have been resident in Ireland since infancy and both recently mothers(again) They are both scathing in their condemnation of the existing law and vehemently argue for it to be changed. My attitude is it is their body therefore their decision, to be tempered only by rigidly defined medical constraints in favour of the mother only. Having such legislation governed by celibate males is nothing less than an outrage! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Abortion 8th amendment referendum, Eire From: Thompson Date: 10 May 18 - 01:17 PM The bishops even sent out pastoral letters (to be read off the altar at all Masses), instructing their parishioners on how to see the question, and by implication, how to vote. It's the same campaigners who fought like wildcats to keep contraception out of Ireland, to keep out divorce, to prevent equal right to marriage. Things are really hotting up now - American campaigners against the repeal spitting in the faces of repeal canvassers they meet, a mass scream of hatred and fury from anti-repealers when Google banned all advertising in relation to the repeal vote - both pro and anti - though these ads are still sneaking through: you'll go looking for an ice cream recipe and find yourself looking at a bloodied foetus; a woman rang Liveline, the country's most popular discussion programme yesterday, in a rage because she'd handed her phone to her child to watch a cartoon while she prepared a snack, and an advertisement about "killing babies up to six months" popped up before the two-year-old's eyes… |
