discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing

Subject: discussion of ALLoyds singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:16 PM

ALLoyd a founder of the uk folk revival . had a particular style ,where he used to sing with a smile on his face, this does not appear to be based on any uk tradtional singers as far as i am aware.

Subject: RE: discussion of ALLoyds singing
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 20 May 20 - 12:53 PM

Anyone wishing to hear Lloyd's singing, including at least one duet with MacColl will find various to choose from with a Google of

AL Lloyd's singing

Note that over two dozen songs show up on the right-hand side of the page that opens. (Even at least one duet with MacColl.)

Subject: RE: discussion of ALLoyds singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 01:43 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD9vbtG7fF0 i like this

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:07 PM

I generally don't like Lloyd's singing. It's too squeaky for me. But I do like the recording of "The Two Magicians" that Dick linked to.
It's an intelligent interpretation, and there's no affectation to his singing in this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD9vbtG7fF0

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:11 PM

As with Ewan, Bert developed his style of singing before the folk revival got under way. There was (indeed and is) no right or wrong way.
As with Ewan he developed a clear, not over-decorative style that suited his natural voice. I always enjoyed his singing and still do.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: r.padgett
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:14 PM

Yes but not really a voice to try to copy ~ I can sometimes detect from a singer where he got the song from ~ not always a good idea

Ray

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: RTim
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:30 PM

I will only say this - Ewan MacColl had a much better voice than AL Lloyd...but in many cases..it is all about the song and not the singer....

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:37 PM

Hi Ray
They say imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. I can't say I've ever heard anyone consciously imitate Bert, but then again, neither have I Ewan, except as a take-off.

Then again of all the revival Bert was the most used 'source' but of course not a 'source' singer in the sense we tend to use it today.

I don't think Bert's singing voice was that much different from his speaking voice, quiet and unassertive mostly, particularly from someone who was very much a guru to younger singers.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 20 - 02:58 PM

Bert's 'grin' always got me - I always thought it as strange until I learned that it was a singing technique to harden the tone
Ewan used the same technique but was more subtle about it
Like Steve, I thoughtfully enjoyed his singing - still do, but I always believed he was limited in what he could handle
Anybody who was lucky enough to hear him will know he was s superb storyteller - especially of his Australian 'Spiwah' stories

One of the best nights I remember at the Singers was when we booked Offaly box player John Bowe, who he antranced with his knowledge of tunes like 'Drops of Brandy' (Played on Nelson's flagship according to Bert)
On the other hand, his lecture on Irish music was one of the worst I'd ever heard

Laast time I saw him was at a Ewaaaan and Peggy night wnen he and his wife Chalotte turned up just before the interval - both evening dress, Bert wass a litle 'in his cups twirling a huge brandy glass ' they'd been at an Embassy function
When the interval came Bert made a beeline for Ewan and Peggy when Charlotte boomed out "Al-bert" he spun on his hees and dutifully obeyed - lovely talented man (if a bit private)
Jim

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 May 20 - 03:21 PM

a digression but i think interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrn3TON0v_I

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 01:18 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh_KXPXmgI8
i found this enjoyable the story is clear the accompaniment enjoyable too, presumably alf edwards. As this is a music forum i think it a good idea to discuss different styles and music.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 01:34 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkpujKDSTToMartin Carthy Dave Swarbrick

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 20 - 02:50 AM

I was looking forward to a discussion on Bert but have decided not to bother as I can see no future in any serious discussion on any serious subject in the future due to a message recieved by another member from a moderator reading:

"Bonzo
Just recieved thos message from another member regarding teh Bert lloyd thread
Thought you should know

"You choose thread topic that have been occasions for battle before.
Lloyd's singing, like MacColl's, is a matter of taste. But idiots like
Jim Carroll get all peeved when people criticize them, and that's what
you're looking for. You are on the list of troublemakers. If you keep
it up, we'll bring you down."
Jim

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:21 AM

Discussion of moderation policy is one sure way to get a thread closed. Whether that is right or fair is not the question. If anyone has issues with moderation, take it up with "the management" privately.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 May 20 - 04:55 AM

That's odd. I'm enjoying the Ewan thread a lot more than I thought I would and this one seemed to be going well too. I haven't seen anyone getting particularly peeved...

Agree with Dave about not getting threads stopped. Let's keep both threads afloat, lads 'n' lasses! And if anyone has a beef about a thread topic, you're perfectly free to air it in the thread.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: r.padgett
Date: 21 May 20 - 06:16 AM

Yes Bert's style clearly was a simple extension of his talking voice I ~

which I would urge all who use source singers like Bert (who may or

may not be deemed a traditional singer ~ that's a different argument I think)


to do as Bert did sing in their own voice ~ and I repeat I have heard

some singers sing like him, and pick up some of his intonation/style etc

Ray

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 09:49 AM

i would hesitate to emulate ALLloyd by singing with a smile on my face, i would be seriously worried that if i sang a lot in this fashion i might damage my vocal chords. I prefer to take the advice of ewan maccoll and do warm up vocal exercises to avoid straining my voice before i started singing.
feel free to dismiss what i say as arrant nonsense, it would be nothing new

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 May 20 - 10:04 AM

Shouldn't that be Aran nonsense?

Not that I am dismissing anything.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:32 AM

only if you are sweating it out

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 May 20 - 11:46 AM

I grew up influenced by punk rock [and Kevin Coyne],
taking it for granted that serious charismatic singers
might have crap voices...

So what.. big deal.. they're not entrants in a Simon Cowell TV competition...

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 21 May 20 - 12:21 PM

Jim,

Please don't take umbrage and please stay here. If idiots say idiotic things, treat those with the contempt they deserve.

Bert's singing voice was unusual, and I have occasionally heard faint echoes of it when someone else sings a song that they presumably learnt from his singing. It can sometimes be hard to suppress any trace of how one has heard a song sung -- and of course some singers don't even try. And then again some songs more or less demand at least some of the style in which they have been sung before, for example Irish ones where one instinctively applies more decoration.

Anyway back to Bert. Great voice, certainly not. Great singer, yes, because he knew how to put a song across.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 12:55 PM

well in my opinion a top notch singer requires a good voice and good interpretation, Bert certainly sang the two magicians very well, and like alL singers sang some songs better than others, i think he was better when he pitched a song lower,BUT HE RARELY LET THE ACCOMPANIST DOMINATE THE SINGING.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 21 May 20 - 01:01 PM

Is there any chance that a mod amend the title of this thread to spell and space Lloyd's name correctly, please? A.L. Lloyd

I'd never heard of the man and am intrigued about him singing with a grin as there a couple of men from my part of the world who do exactly the same.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 May 20 - 01:16 PM

A Dave Swarbrick story that he told me -
One of the first times that he was in the studio as a young man was when he had been booked to play as accompanist on a Bert Lloyd album. It must have been First Person (1966). During a break Bert was sitting on a chair and Dave was sitting on the floor by him when he accidently kicked his instrument over.
Bert said, "Don't do that, sonny. It's not good for the fiddle and it's not good for me." - The first words he spoke to him!

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 20 - 01:32 PM

That is interesting Vic, perhaps both of them were a little apprehensive. Modette just google a l lloyd you tube, ies very easy to find or even try Bert lloyd ,its quite easy, Geoff

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 20 - 03:43 PM

Vic, Dave Swarbrick was on "A Sailor's Garland" which was recorded in 1962.
Dave Sutherland

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 21 May 20 - 08:44 PM

https://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/lloyd2.htm

Good but lengthy article there written by A.L. Lloyd.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 May 20 - 06:12 AM

Dave Sutherland wrote -
Vic, Dave Swarbrick was on "A Sailor's Garland" which was recorded in 1962.

That would be a more likely date for the story; David Cyril Eric Swarbrick (5 April 1941 – 3 June 2016) would have been 201 or 22 then.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 May 20 - 06:13 AM

No, he would not have been 201!!!

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Reinhard
Date: 22 May 20 - 07:32 AM

<pedant>A Sailor's Garland was released on 25 January 1962 when Swarb was 20.</pedant>

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 May 20 - 08:26 AM

A Sailor's Garland was released on 25 January 1962 when Swarb was 20. ☺

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Loyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 20 - 04:16 AM

i think that singing with a smile on the face forces the singer to sing in what i would call an unnatural way,BUTitseems a country mileaway from natural singers like harry cox and cyril poacher
i do not mean to be diserespectful to BERT, who i have the greates respect for.
he along with my parents have been a musical and political influence right from my child hood, i went to school with his daughter and my brother and i used to go round and play at Berts house in Greenwich

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 20 - 01:28 PM

"an unnatural way"
On the contrary Dick
We all have a wide ranges of tones - we use most of them in speech but very few in singing, for various reasons
Bert's 'grin' was a lazy-man's method of producing an unused tone away from his habitual speaking tone in order to sing songs requiring a different effect - there's nothing unnatural about it
Some traditions use other methods - physical intervention, by pressure on the throat or holding the head in a different position
The most extreme form of intervention was used by the 'Castrati' until it became illegal - cutting a young lads balls off
I; happy to go into this deeper but not now
Jim

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 May 20 - 04:00 AM

Point taken ,however I have not noticed any uk traditional singers singning with a smile to attain that tone

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 24 May 20 - 04:07 PM

Pleased that Jim is back as I am curious regarding the phrase “Limited in what he could handle” Obviously Jim knew Bert far better than I did but in my case as a naïve teenager in 1965/66 the selection of traditional folk recordings available in the North East was sparing in the extreme; however there were a handful of recordings by Ewan MacColl and A.L.Lloyd. MacColl’s singing I was marginally familiar with but I was yet to discover that of Mr Lloyd; listening to as many of these albums that I could “Bold Sportsmen All”, “Blow the Man Down”, “The Iron Muse”, “Gamblers and Sporting Blades” and “Outback Ballads” rather than consider him limited I was utterly astounded at the wide range of material he was performing. Lyrical songs and ballads, Australian songs, Shanties, Industrial Ballads and bawdy pieces. I was at first surprised by his vocal style but soon became used to it and in turn to admire its range and flexibility. I heard later on that he wasn’t particularly comfortable with the “big ballads” although once, at Newcastle Festival, I asked him if he still sang “Poor Cotton Weaver” which he had recorded on The Iron Muse but he said not as it was very long; however on the same night he performed his version of Tam Lin which isn’t exactly a throwaway ditty!
I do agree with his storytelling skill and always thought it a great shame that he had passed away before the popularity of storytelling surged on the folk scene in the early nineties.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 20 - 04:08 AM

"I have not noticed any uk traditional singers singning with a smile to attain that tone"
Can'r disgree with that Dick, but we are not traditional singers and our role is a very different one
Your average source singers had repertoires limited to what was locally available to them - it seldom, if ever ranged through children's songs, shanties and wok songs, ritual songs, lyrical pieces - through to the stark, demanding big ballads
We revival singers have all of these at our disposal and many of us choose to handle as many of them as we can
In order to do that it is necessary to develop techniques the source singers didn't need - that, largely, was what The Critics Group was about
Bert's grin was a fore-runner of that (Bert was a revival singer and scholar) - Ewan, in order to help the Critics and other groups, devised a whole programme of techniques to assist tone (thet's what the grin was about), relaxation, breath control, exploration, understanding and full use of the voice.... and other necessities of improving yourself as a singer
That is what I have been trying to share and add to for years - "still willin'" as Barcus said

Thaks for your kind words Dave; I'd like to take up your points later, when I've woken up and dressed
Stay safe folks - we seem to be getting there at last, despite the efforts of Boris and Cummings :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 May 20 - 05:29 AM

Yes, a terrific storyteller, if an idiosyncratic singer. I once sat up through the wee hours chatting and imbibing with the editor of a leading folk music publication, while 'An Evening With A. L. Lloyd was playing in the background. When he began 'Tamlyn' the conversation stopped, and not another word was uttered until the end of the ballad. We looked at one another and said "How the f*** did he do that??" Utterly transfixing.

In the (very extensive and interesting) liner notes to the double CD 'Bramble Briars and Beams of the Sun' on Fellside, Vic Gammon discusses Bert's singing style, suggesting that his two main tradiional influences were Phil Tanner and Harry Cox.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 20 - 05:55 AM

Vic's articles on Bert are superb - if they're not available on line I can let anybody interested have what I have
Bert's skillful knack of weaving a song introduction in with his storytelling often made for superb evenings and more than made up for his singing limitations
I was left with the impression that Bert didn't like Ballads once at a lecture on the subject he gave at Keele - I felt he 'talked their importance down' too much
I still have the recording somewhere
A magnificently memorable point in the talk was when Fred Jordan, who was there to sing an example, fell asleep in the chair and was sharply spotlit by a shaft of sunlight coming through the domed roof - a celestial nudge from above perhaps !
The photograph, by Brian Shuel appeared in the following 'Dance and Song'
Good memories
Jim

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 May 20 - 05:59 AM

Brian Peters:-
Yes, a terrific storyteller,

Did you ever hear him tell the one about the kushmaker on a whaling ship?

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 May 20 - 06:11 AM

No, Vic, I didn't. Actually I was referring to his storytelling within a song, but I'd be happy to hear about the kushmaker if you've time!

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 20 - 06:13 AM

Did indeed - lovely
I quite liked, 'The Sleeve Job' which appeared as an Orson Wells classic 'The Lady From Shanghai' (not a lot of people know that')
Also 'The Carrot over the cream' and 'The magic whistle'
I might have some recordings of Bert telling stories; if anybody's interested I'll dig them out

Ewan was a superb storyteller too - though most o them were never recorded
The 'Chairlie Plenderlieth' sories were his best
These people were talented entertainers when they set their minds to it
Jim

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 May 20 - 06:15 AM

Good thinking, Jim.

Vic's liner notes.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 06:22 AM

intersting because i do not think he sounds like harry cox or philtanner

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 20 - 07:27 AM

"i do not think he sounds like harry cox or phil tanner"
Who doesn't Dick and why should anybody ?
Do you think Phil Tanner sounds like Harry Cox or either o them sound like Walter Pardon or Bob Copper ?
Jim

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 May 20 - 07:52 AM

If you listen to Bert singing 'Henry Martin' (it's on Youtube) you can hear him sing an exact copy of one of Phil Tanner's mos distinctive ornaments on the word 'Hello' (verse 4), and the performance overall is reminiscent of Tanner even though it's actually a different variant.

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 20 - 08:22 AM

I think that's true Brian and other examples are available
Unless I have mistaken Dicks comment, he was referring to the function of Bert's 'grin' which was a technique to change the tone of the voice
Everybody has a built repertoire of tones but different environments emphasize some above others
Someone working in, say an office, will tend to use softer tones so as not to 'stand out in a crowd'
Steelworkers (MacColl's favourite example) need to belt everything out over the constant noise - that's the voice he takes home and to the pub (he described the Sunderland club venue, the noisiest pub he'd ever been in) all the singers tended to belt out their songs.
Controlling and extending tones was a feature of all Critics Group work
I found it very easy to strain my voice when I tried to sing songs requiring a hard tone because, as a domestic electrician, I used lighter tones 8 hours a day at work
I suspect that, had I continued to wok on the Docks, where I served my apprenticeship, my problem would have been reversed
These are extremes - we worked in subtleties in the C.G.
Sorry to bang on - it gets easier when you get to used to this way of work - and very easy - almost instinctive
Jim

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 08:37 AM

i lstened to berts recording but phil tanners is not available in my location perhaps you could make a link Brian and post THE TWO OF THEM,thanks

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 May 20 - 08:44 AM

Brian - To my surprise and delight, I found that there is a recording of Bert telling that story on Youtube. Here is the link -
The Kush Maker

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 08:46 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsxG06FMA-Y harry cox
bert lloyd
a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WuFRGzzW_w">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WuFRGzzW_w other than it is two unaccompanied singers, i cannot hear much influence

Subject: RE: discussion of A.L.Lloyd's singing
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 May 20 - 08:49 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WuFRGzzW_w