Lyr ADD: Shoals of Whiting (Chris Sugden)-Kippers

Subject: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 25 Sep 20 - 03:00 PM

Hello, we’re wanting to a family performance of Sid Kipper’s ‘Shoals of Whiting’. I have it on tape somewhere inaccessible. Is anyone able to share the lyrics?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: cnd
Date: 25 Sep 20 - 11:08 PM

I'm certain I got several of the town names wrong, and there were a few words I couldn't get what he was saying, but it's a start from a non-Brit. Maybe someone else can fill in the blanks.

Transcribed by ear from here (song is at roughly the 10-minute mark of that podcast)

THE SHOALS OF WHITING
(Chris Sugden)

Oh it was a dark and a dismal day
Out of Holcomb Harbor we were lighting
In the sleet and hail of a forsak'd gail
We went looking for the shoals of whiting

CHORUS
Though the wind did blow
We searched high and low
We were looking for the shoals of whiting

Oh, me mother said I should go to sea
And the very thought of that was frightening
But me mother Jill, she's more frightening still
So I went looking for the shoals of whiting

CHORUS

With a pitch and roll, soon you're feeling ill
You are turning green and your stomach's tightening
Then you learn a thing: you should face downwind
When you go looking for the shoals of whiting

CHORUS

Though the hours were hard and the work was long
And you're wondering why the fish aren't biting
That's cause you forget you should use a net
When you go looking for the shoals of whiting

CHORUS

Oh, from Warrum Hole down to Scroby Sands
Through the wind and spray of boaters? fighting
Cast a million trawl, we caught bugger all
Oh, we couldn't find the shoals of whiting

CHORUS

Then the storm got worse and the sea did swell
And our captain, he got struck by lightning
Oh, the ship went down just off Yarmouth town
And it was there we found the shoals of whiting

CHORUS

Now there's just our bones
Down in Davy Jones'
We got eaten by the shoals of whiting

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Sep 20 - 04:53 AM

better to sing the shoals of herring.
these pareodies although well performed by sid kipper and henry kipper are invariably second rate in the hands of less skilled performers. wheras the original in this case was a well written son.
thank god the kippers are no more, they were skilled performers with very good timing. but often they relied on just writing the opposite of the original.
did they do a service to tradtional music or other peoples compositions?   in the case of this attempted mockery of the shoals of herring, the writing is second rate.
the real skill of the kipper family was in the interplay bwteen henry and sid kipper , in the timing and the piss take of norfolk speech and mannerisms,
the actual writing skill when they attempted satire in modern composotions such as shoals of herring was in my opinion weak compared to the original.
time the kipper family were dead and buried an their parodies shelved

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 26 Sep 20 - 05:11 AM

I've updated cnd's fine effort from the lyrics as printed in Sugden & Kipper's book "Cod Pieces".

THE SHOALS OF WHITING

(Chris Sugden)

Oh it was a dark and a dismal day,
Out of Holkham harbour we were lighting,
In the sleet and hail of a force-eight gale,
We went looking for the shoals of whiting.

CHORUS
Though the wind did blow,
We searched high and low,
We were looking for the shoals of whiting.

Oh, me mother said I should go to sea,
And the very thought of that was frightening;
But me mother, Jill, she's more frightening still,
So I went looking for the shoals of whiting.

CHORUS

With a pitch and roll, soon you're feeling ill;
You are turning green, and your stomach's tightening.
Then you learn a thing; you should face downwind,
When you go looking for the shoals of whiting.

CHORUS

Oh the hours were hard, and the work was long,
And you're wondering why the fish aren't biting;
That's cause you forget, you should use a net
When you go looking for the shoals of whiting.

CHORUS

Oh, from Warham Hole, down to Scroby Sands
Through the wind and spray our boat was fighting;
Cast a million trawl, we caught bugger all,
Oh, we couldn't find the shoals of whiting.

CHORUS

Then the storm got worse, and the sea did swell,
And our captain, he got struck by lightning;
Oh the ship went down, just off Yarmouth town,
And it was there we found the shoals of whiting.

CHORUS

Now there's just our bones,
Down in Davy Jones;
We got eaten by the shoals of whiting.

LFF

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 26 Sep 20 - 07:10 AM

Shoals of Herring sung by Ewan McColl

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:00 PM

Thank you so much cnd and Long Firm Freddy for taking the time to transcribe this and find a recording.

The Sandman - I take your point but we have reasons!

I’ll reply properly when I’m back from holidays and on a computer.

Best wishes and thanks again,

Chris

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 09:41 AM

I was at Warwick Folk Festival when Chris and Dick came down to breakfast in the hotel in full costume, and stayed in character throughout. There was no need for this, all the other guests were fellow festical performers and they could easily have relaxed with no 'civilans' around. I thought it showed their absolute professionalism. And even at that hour they were very funny.

I think Sandman's criticisms are a little unfair, the folk scene would indeed be in a sorry state if no one could poke fun, and this was done with affection and with a deep understanding of it. I agree this song perhaps isn't one of their best, but at their best their writing was brilliant. Parody is not the same as mockery.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 02:59 AM

I agree, Howard. The Kippers were brilliant when they appeared at our festival many years back. Even called a dance at the ceilidh. The dashing white privates :-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 04:10 AM

I said they were very good performers.
quote, these parodies although well performed by sid kipper and henry kipper are invariably second rate in the hands of less skilled performers.
whereas the original in this case was a well written song.
Howard, if you disagree with me that is ok , but ,I would rather hear the shoals of herring than the shoals of whiting , unLess the shoals of whiting was performed by the Kippers , whose timing AND general perfomance was very good , in my opinion the parody is fairly typical in that it written as an opposite which makes the parody a little predictable.
in my opinion the success of the Kippers was based on their skilled perfoming rather than the strength of the parody as a piece of writing.
the original written by MacColl, is a well written song.
THE PARODY CAN NOT EXIST WITHOUT, MacColl original composition, this also rises the ethical question of royalties for national radio performance ETC.
I am fed up to the back teeth with floorsingers perfoming inferior versions of parodies that worked well by the original perfomers, for me, it mars and spoils memories of the Kipper family perfomances
we are no longer talking about trad material

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 07:09 AM

I think the Kipper's version did very well to rhyme lots of things with Whiting just as the original rhymed lots with Herring. I agree that the original was a great song and McColl was a great writer. Both can quite easily weather a bit of Mickey taking.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 09:18 AM

it depends how the parody is performed , i doubt if anyone will do it as well as the kippers, you seem to have missed my point about permission to parody somembody elses composition. if somebody paridied fiddlers green you would expect them to contact john connolly the composer of fiddlers green ,

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 05:05 PM

I didn't miss it, Dick. I ignored it as it. I have no idea what the legalities are but I suspect if it was an issue the McColl estate may have been in touch with Chris or Dick.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Shoals of Whiting (Sid Kipper)
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 07:01 PM

The Copyright and Rights in Performances (Quotation and Parody) Regulations 2014

“Caricature, parody or pastiche
2A.—(1) Fair dealing with a performance or a recording of a performance for the purposes of caricature, parody or pastiche does not infringe the rights conferred by this Chapter in the performance or recording.

(2) To the extent that a term of a contract purports to prevent or restrict the doing of any act which, by virtue of this paragraph, would not infringe any right conferred by this Chapter, that term is unenforceable.

(3) Expressions used in this paragraph have the same meaning as in section 30A.”.


The European Court of Justice (ECJ) in Deckmyn v Vandersteen, C-201/13 (Deckmyn) recognised the need for the definition of parody to be harmonised amongst the nations of the member states. It further recognised that parody has two characteristics.

‘first, to evoke an existing work while being noticeably different from it, and, secondly, to constitute an expression of humour or mockery’

You're welcome.

LFF