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Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs.
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Subject: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Rick Fielding Date: 15 Jan 00 - 02:15 PM It seemed like a good idea to get this off the "Alter Ego" thread so that the Jekyls/Hydes and super sleuths can get on with the fun.
I was in the process of writing a new song for the next album, and opined that after 30 years, I still have qualms about identifying something original until I've played it a few times in front of an audience, and guaged their response. I'd be curious as to how fellow Mudcatters (whether hobbiest or professional) approach creating music and then dealing with the feedback. Thanks. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: katlaughing Date: 15 Jan 00 - 02:47 PM I've been through this a lot with my brother and his songs, Rick, as well as some of my own stuff. I keep telling him, it's as though you are sending your child out into the world for the first time and you alternate between being excited for them, wishing them good fortune and wondering if you did a good enough job and hoping everyone who meets them will think so and love them the way you do. It seems a huge but necessary risk for being part of the human race and wanting to share music. katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: catspaw49 Date: 15 Jan 00 - 03:04 PM Ever read any of Richard Feynman's books? Try "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman" .....I can't begin to explain it here, but Feynman answered this type of thing better than any psychomotivatereducalesbabble artist I've ever heard or read. Just a plain flat ass neat guy, especially when you consider he was a Nobel physicist (Quantum Mechanics). Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: JedMarum Date: 15 Jan 00 - 03:32 PM I take very much the same approach you do, Rick with my new songs. They do evolve for me, especially in the early days. I always want to play a new song ASAP to an audience, but when it is new, I always have a difficult time playing it! It's a bit like getting new shoes .... ya wanna wear 'em, but know ya gotta break 'em in! |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: JenEllen Date: 15 Jan 00 - 04:14 PM I am the worst. I know all about the lack of confidence, and with my temperment it makes it a double edged sword. I want to sing and play for the sheer joy of it, and if you don't like it, you can kiss my sweet arse...but then you can't help but wonder what others are thinking, and if you could make it better. It is so easy to stick with what you know and not spread you wings. The perfomance flexibility is what I need to work on most, and allowing the creative impulses I have to come out in my playing regardless of what the audience thinks. I don't think I could entirely give myself over, and that's a shame. Elle |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Peter T. Date: 15 Jan 00 - 05:17 PM Hi, Rick, glad to see that your strategy of being creative involves lots of time doing other things! I know how it is. When I am writing poetry, I am always assuming that it should be immediate and spontaneous, but all the good poetry I have ever written (including the little I have published) often went through 100 drafts or more. What I have learned from that is that there are (for me anyway) two different phases or types of spontaneous quality, and that they are really different. The first is the spontaneous original idea for the poem (or what the hell, song), which may be just one line or one idea that comes to you, and you think -- hmmm, that might be interesting. Then you set to work. Only once in a very long time does the whole thing work in 20 minutes (the gods give it to you). Mostly it then requires immense amounts of labouring, crafting, tinkering, and it is then that the second phase of spontaneous quality comes in -- those little tiny things that work, little solutions, knots that dissolve. But that second, tightly focussed creativity only happens in the context of sheer work. The first kind of spontaneous free creativity is very romantic -- vague, intuitive, out of nowhere, a glimmer -- and it is what everyone associates with the Romantic artist. But any real artist knows that the second kind of creativity (very Taoist, actually) is the day to day originality. The solution that comes in the middle of the work. I find it interesting that you work much like a poet when you write, but in performance you often change lyrics. No poet that I know of would change a thing once they got the words right, partly because they have such respect for how hard it was getting them exactly where they wanted them to be. Perhaps you draft as you go....Interesting. Homer probably did the same when 'e smote 'is bloomin' lyre. Back to work....yours, Peter |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Night Owl Date: 15 Jan 00 - 05:31 PM Rick, this comes from my respect and admiration of you. I'm willing to bet that the reason you are a successful GOOD teacher of music and song is because you KNOW the depth of insecurity some of your students have,....and can help them through it,to get on with the music. The same insecurity creates nerves when your "child" goes out to test the waters. If you could choose between being nervous about the release of new material versus an "I don't care" attitude, knowing the latter would make you an insensitive, callous instructor and reduce you to being simply a technically correct musician, which would you choose? I'm hopeful that you'll still be having qualms about new material after sixty years! If your heart's in what you're doing...its just plain scary....(I think). I'm hopeful that you DON'T ever "toughen up"! |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: WyoWoman Date: 16 Jan 00 - 12:53 AM "Writing is a process of expansion and contraction, expansion and contraction ..." (Kurt Vonnegut) "No matter what I'm doing, I think I should be doing something else. When I'm writing a film script, I think I should be writing a play.When I'm writing a play, I think I really am a better actor ..." (Woody Allen) "Hey, if this creating s**t was easy, everyone would be doing it." WyoWoman I'm not a songwriter, just a writer, but the process is the same. I never think I know what I'm doing. I revise incessantly. (I've actually, to this point, thrown away every piece of fiction I've ever written. Let's talk about a lack of confidence.) I edit word by word as I write. As soon as I've hit the send button and submitted one of my articles or essays, I instantly think of what I should have said. I'm ridiculously critical of my own work, exuberantly appreciative of good writing when someone else did it ... It's sort of the same with music, actually. Also very perfectionistic there as well. And yet -- I know objectively that my writing is good, and that I'm a decent singer. And one of the reasons is all the stuff above. Being perfectionistic (when it doesn't paralyze you) means you set a high standard and strive for it. Being demanding of yourself and others means you have a much greater chance of having stellar results... It's all kind of front-of-hand, back-of-hand. Ya can't have one without the other -- but the challenge is always balance. When do you say, "This song is finished. This article is done. This poem is a poem." and when do you say, "No, it just needs one more thing..." Giving yourself the gift of satisfaction is almost as important as creating in the first place -- and it's the part of the mix we creative types most often fail to allow ourselves, I think. At least it is in MY world... WW, rambling but hoping she's made some sense |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Chris/Darwin Date: 16 Jan 00 - 06:53 AM Just about everyone who has ever had an ambition to perform in front of other people has written some sort of poetry or song. The problem today is that we are constantly exposed to the best music ever written through recordings. Every singer has recordings of songs that "turn them on" in some special way. We listen to these pieces of perfection and think that nobody could possibly be interested in our miserable stuff. No wonder Rick feels trepidation! But the wonderful thing about folk music (and probably other kinds of music as well) is that there is always a new way of interpreting some idea, event, person, story etc. Most of us part-time musicians look at people like Rick and admire them for their originality and the quality of what they do. Sure, there are plenty of great folk musicians out there - but most people would say Rick is one too. I have written a bit of poetry and a few songs over the years, and know that I will never be say, an Eric Bogle. But fellow band members have said they got "goose bumps" when singing a particular song, and I guess therefore that there must have been some merit. However, I still am reluctant to sing my own songs, because I lack that basic confidence in them. I will happily sing songs written by fellow band members, or completely unknown writers, and they cannot understand my attitude about my own. But I guess that's basic human nature when you are sensitive, and perhaps easily hurt. Song writing, like poetry, is not like baking a pizza. You can vary the ingredients in a pizza and still predict that the result will be well received. The number of people in the world who can create, at will, tunes to perfectly match the mood of poetry, can be counted on one hand. Us mortals just don't know that the song is "right" until lots of other people have heard it and passed judgement. All my best songs went through a period of review and change, sometimes with help from non-musicians, such as my wife, who is a good critic. There is no substitute for that, as is singing the first drafts to audiences and gauging the reaction. You are going about it the right way Rick. The next perfect song is just under that gnome at the end of the garden....
Regards
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Pixie Date: 16 Jan 00 - 08:17 AM I'm no musician (3 chord wonder....wonder if I can play that in 3 chords?), singer or songwriter but sometimes just HAVE to write. My real job requires me to push a lot of paper but there's not too much creativity there. I have written a very few songs and almost throw up when I play them in front of anybody, particularly family. I feel SO vulnerable and naked....matter of fact, I'd probably rather BE naked in front of them....when playing I shake so much I miss strings and notes. BUT sometimes I just have to put it out there all the time wishing I could sing or play better. Reading this thread scares me even more if vetrans and accomplished musicians such as yourselves still go through the angst of creating and performing but it is also gratifying to know that those feelings may be a major part of the process!(talk about rambling...) ...and George if you read this I HOPE to see you tonight at Sounds Like Sunday.... |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: kendall Date: 16 Jan 00 - 09:21 AM A performer who has never had a case of nerves would have to be a real blockhead. The greatest of them have gone through that, Sir Lawrence Olivia had a problem with giggling when his nerves were shot. Judy Garland, Barbara Striesand..the list is endless. I well remember when I first started, and for years afterwards, I was as nervous as a Christian Scientist with a severed artery. Being nervous has a good side, it makes you want to do your best. However, if you are like the "deer in the headlights" only time and performing with plenty of positive reinforcement will cure that. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Peter T. Date: 16 Jan 00 - 10:14 AM One problem for people who are really self-critical is that they do use as their standard final, published work (or performed), and assume that since nothing but the perfect thing should go out of their door, there is no real place for testing and redrafting in public. It has to be perfect before anyone knows about it. I have friends who were private writers and then started to write for the theatre. They all found it wonderful after they had been through about 12 nervous breakdowns. Everything changed every five minutes, and no one had the slightest compunction about saying, that doesn't work, this drags, etc. To have the critical voice in their head actually belong to real people out there drove them crazy -- in part because the possibility that they were flawed was the one secret they could not reveal, and was contained in that harsh critical voice. Being able to edit in public (which is part of what Rick is talking about) is a complete mind shift for many writers: scares them to death. Yours, Peter |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Reggie Miles Date: 16 Jan 00 - 11:06 AM I've struggled with the same with my art endeavors. After I built my last rezophonic guitar I didn't want to tell anyone. After all it was built out of weird stuff like vegetable steamer, baseball bat, door kickplate, piano and record player parts etc. Who in their right mind could think they could get away with something like that?I would just play it and wait for those listening to comment, hoping the reviews would be good. Then after a few nods of approval I began to tell the story to folks of how I came to craft it. The more I shared the story the more the story itself became a part of my performance. This in turn opened up an area of of performance that I had never explored before, story telling. I soon found it easier to tell other musings, adding them as intros to songs. One of the wonderful things that happened is that after hearing my tale someone else decided they could build their own guitar and made two. I think the risk of condemnation was worthwhile if for no other reason than it inspired another to take that step toward the creative process. Tinkering with an idea trying to perfect it is something I've done as well. It took me a year of pondering about a found object scuplture I was working on before I could call it finished. I've experimented with my guitar for years, trying new tunings, a different combination of string guages, pickups etc., working on little details to try and make it sound better and still I continue. I've done the same with songs, stories, other instruments I've built as well as other art pieces I've played with. All are works in progress. I'm not thick headed enough to believe that what I produce will appeal to all nor am I thin skinned enough to let my critics deter my efforts at creating. Who knows what sparks of inspiration we may ignite in others through our efforts. I know of many, who after seeing me perform with my musical saw or washboard have been inspired to try the same. I don't feel so very adept at writng to these threads. It's always been difficult for me to organize my thoughts much less write them down so that others could compehend them. You Rick and others here have inspired me to do just that. We are all works in progress. Don't hold back. No one else can say what you need to say precisely the way you can and from what I've read of your posts here you seem to have a pretty good handle on how to make a point. Did I say that right? |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: JedMarum Date: 16 Jan 00 - 12:05 PM ... just as I fininshed making these points (above) about always struggling with new songs in performance, I played last night at a local folk club and for some reason just felt right trying out a new song I haven't really finished yet. I didn't introduce it ... but just slipped into it from a previous song that fit the key and mood. It worked well. I'm not sure if this is a new way for me to get over the 'new song nerves' or if the moon and stars were simply aligned for me ... but I won't look the gift horse in the mouth! Many good thoughts here. Wyo, I understand your comments re: endless refinement. With songs, the lyrics 'evolve' over time and sometimes the subtle changes have miraculous effect on the song ... in the business writing I've done, I find that the more 'mature' the doc, the happier I am with it. That is if I can keep my best effort attempt at a final draft for two days ... then do a final edit; I am always happier with the result. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Peter T. Date: 16 Jan 00 - 12:28 PM Traditional writers tend to fixate on the end product -- they don't tend to see themselves as craftspeople who can tinker and fix things, and get respect for doing that as a worker on the way to making a fine poem or novel. Editors (like Wyo, and me, often) do that -- not that they get any respect! Rolling out drafts in public to get a reaction is just not what writers do much (again, except for playwrights, and in writing seminars). It may be because they internalize the audience as well, which folk songwriters don't because they perform a lot. This may change with these poetry wrestling competitions and so on, but I doubt it. Writers internalize writer, editor, and audience, which is why they drive themselves nuts. It is interesting that the most prolific writers tend to throw into the public domain material, finished material, as if it were drafts, but not really drafts. They then have a body of work from their teens to their old age. This is probably really healthy, but not many writers can do that: the perfection voice is too crippling (or, on the other hand, it does prevent even more crap from getting out into the world). Most people forget that the great writers are considered great not because of everything they published, but a tight selection. Shakespeare wrote reams of dreck before he hit his stride: the 3 Henry VI plays, Titus Andronicus, and even after: Merry Wives of Windsor. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: The Shambles Date: 16 Jan 00 - 02:48 PM To write a song is not too difficult. To write a GOOD song and to know how to recognize one is the difficult part. It probably gets harder, rather than easier, the more 'good' songs you have or are seen to have produced. You have a 'yardstick', by which they can be judged. Until you do, It's not too difficult to improve on nothing. There is also the problem of writing the same song, over and over. Well if it was a good one, why not? Songs are probably more difficult than conventional writing (other than a play or such like) in the respect that you as the writer are there at the moment of it's introduction to the world and to witness the world's reception to your 'baby'. In addition, the process of performance is the main part of finding out if the song is a GOOD song. There is not really another way of doing it. I have found that the songs I have produced are all different, in that some just seem to write themselves and remain unaltered and others are revised over and over for a long period. Still not too sure which are the better ones. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Rick Fielding Date: 16 Jan 00 - 10:27 PM Thanks so much for the feedback folks. The concept of a "good" or "bad" song (as we all know too well here) is an almost useless measuring stick. Two lists of "favourite" and "Least favourite" songs will inevitably have a number of the same songs in both. I've got a couple more thoughts, but Duckboots wants TEA!! Rick
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: sophocleese Date: 16 Jan 00 - 10:54 PM I have knitted and crocheted sweaters, I have sewn clothes, I have painted various things, I cook, I like to sing and I have written a couple of tunes. All of these things are difficult, at some level, to present to others. Most of them are a mix of other people's things, creations, and my own. I don't spin my own wool or weave my own fabric. I follow recipes until I am familiar with them and then expeiment slowly. I sing other's songs that I think are good already and mix myself up in them when I sing. I can always lean a little on someone else's expertise. The more there is of me in what I present the more scared I am and the greater the return when it is accepted. When I present a tune I have composed myself I cannot lean on anybody else, it is all coming from me. Its terrifying. The criticism of a tone deaf bat would of course be accurate and spot on, because my judgement is shot all to hell by nerves. Only with time and custom can I get used to playing it in front of others. I'm only beginning to write, I'm hoping that it gets easier. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Brendy Date: 16 Jan 00 - 11:38 PM The thing I find about my own stuff (apart from the fact that a lot of it seems rather bleak) is the letting of the audience into my head. To sing one of one's songs involves letting one's "guard " down, and that can be an uncomfortable prospect even for the most weather hardened performers. To sing someone else's song lets you off the hook in a way, in that you can distance yourself from it at any time because you didn't write it, so therefore are not responsible if people don't like it. One's own stuff, however, you can't deny and of course it is natural to question it's content, it's accuracy to the way you felt at the time, and ( in my case anyway), it's degree of ridiculousness. When is the song finished? Questions like these haunt us, and it's only natural to feel a little self-conscious, especially when we are just about to give an audience the guided tour of our emotions. Because we are 'perfectionists' we are never satisfied. But we also are much more critical of our own stuff than other people are. We see the blatant flaws and scratch the head off ourselves trying to fit THAT word into THAT context, into THAT line, and do it where it describes the situation perfectly. The thing about it is, we generally do. And all the soul searching that went into the making of the song ensures that we do. But still we think we don't!!! I don't sing too much of my own stuff. Mostly because people hound me to sing Whiskey in the Jar and Molly Malone all night. ( I don't sing those neither, but the continual requests tend to break the spell somewhat). Each one of our songs represent a space and time and normally deal with some either experience, opinion, or other personal entity. Being worried about audience's reactions is natural, but if those songs were designed to make others think, then your words are just as relevant as anyone else's, and in many cases better. I don't like the terms 'Good' or 'Bad' when used to describe music. An individual's music and songs are always going to be 'Good', for the simple reason that it is 'Your' music. It doesn't matter if he/she can only play 2 chords (or less) and write songs with rhymes that would make you cringe; It is a personal statement, and it is sang in the true spirit of the folk tradition. We are messengers of sorts, Rick, and our self-criticism of our material in the writing stages is normally a pre-requisite to a reasonably well structured 'message', or 'cry for help', or whatever. Self-critically Yours, B. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: The Shambles Date: 17 Jan 00 - 04:47 AM Sorry to bring the concept of good, in relation to songs as of course it then brings in the idead of bad, which was not my intention. Unfortunately, those two extremes are a question of taste, made once the song is out there to be 'shot at'. I meant it only in the context of this thread. For if you are to have confidence in your song you must feel in the first place that it is good or you would put it in the reject pile? It only gets difficult at that point, for you then are forced to 'see it through' and have to back your judgement. If you do not have enough confidence in your own song, to sing it, then it is unlikely ever to see the light of day. If anyone out there is agonizing over whether to perform their song(s) or not, I could do no better than to refer them to the post above. Where Brendy say's "Because we are 'perfectionists' we are never satisfied. But we also are much more critical of our own stuff than other people are". All of the songs out there, must have been evenually thought of as good by the composer(s) for them to go ahead with it? Maybe 'good enough' is a better term to use? |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: JenEllen Date: 17 Jan 00 - 05:03 AM After reading this thread from inception, I owe all of you the biggest of hugs and thank you's. I still suffer from the "what-if's" and stage fright..and the songs are not quite good enough, ever. But I took the plunge tonight at our group sing-out, and for the first time I played/sang a couple of things I'd written. I thought it would be the way to go, considering your friends are often your harshest critics. I was right. And it was amazing to find that the things I thought were the most shaky were the things where the group went "c'mon girl, you have GOT to be kidding". I think that the lyrics and tone of songs are still easier to mold than poetry and written word, and there is much more flexibility and less finality when dealing with music. You're book is final once in print, but at least while dealing with song, you have the ability to adapt them to your audience and your changing self. You should never doubt your ability to adapt to the changes of your heart. A million thank you's and a butterfly net full of confidence to all. Elle |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Liz the Squeak Date: 17 Jan 00 - 05:58 AM I'm so scared of doing my own stuff (most of it is crap), that I never admit to it being mine, until I see how it has gone down once or twice in a club or singaround... One got such a good reception, that I did it a couple of times, even gave the words to someone, before admitting it was mine. I promptly then got firmly sat on, by a stuck up little twat who insisted that it was a traditional one and he'e learnt it 20 years ago....! Of course, that is the one I can no longer remember or have a copy of...... LTS |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: JedMarum Date: 17 Jan 00 - 11:44 AM liz - good approach to introducing your material, but I doubt it is really crap, and I suspect you'll find the more you do it, the more you'll like the result! ... and I suspect brewing tea for your loved one is much more valuable then dawdling with us! |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: The Shambles Date: 17 Jan 00 - 01:40 PM Liz There are not really that many of your SULTs (Stuck Up Little Twats), in the world but the small number of them can do a lot of damage. The trick is not to allow them put you off, I am pleased to see you don't semm to have been. Maybe we could widen their description to Insensitive Nit-picking Stuck Up Little Twats? Anyone else come across any of these here INSULTs? |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Little Neophyte Date: 17 Jan 00 - 03:27 PM I currently have the honor to be on the receiving side of Rick's ablility to instill confidence & encouragement to explore my creativity. Night Owl, has a good point. Rick, maybe being sensitive to this issue you are able to teach others what you Will for yourself. Combine that with your gift to teach and your Doctorate in Psychology (which the University owes you), and presto........ You are one incredible coach. Reggie Miles, your words were very clear and I agree with your thoughts on inspiration. BB |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Jan 00 - 07:56 PM Actually, if someone were to insist that a song I'd written was a traditional one he'd learned 20 years ago, I'd be flattered and amused, even if I'd just written it laasrt week - and even more so if it was one I'd written 20 years ago, and s/he had remembered it all this time.
Some songs need a bit of explaining, like "this is about my father, and ...etc" which involves telling people it's one of your own - but most times I tend to just sing the song. Then if someone says " I like that - where did you get it", you can look modest and say "That's one of mine." That happened last night at a session, and it's a great feeling. (It's also flattering when you sing an obscure song by some well regarded songmaker, and get asked if it's one of your own.)
I find most times the first draft of a song comes quick, like you're picking it up. I tend to write it down at this stage, or these days probably do it on the computer, which makes it a lot easier to shift the lines and the verses round till it makes sense.
After that, it's like breaking in boots. I just have to keep on wearing them now and then, until they get comfortable. They keep on changing shape - and so do my feet, I suppose. And it's the same with songs.
To start with I find the trouble is remmbering the words, so I might sing from a script the first time to get over this. Then there's a time when you're singing, and trying to remember the lines. I find doing it while driving in the car is best. But it's not till you've got it in you so that you sing it without remembering it, that you can really sing the song properly, just waiting for the right words to pop into your mouth. And of course, even with a song you've been singing for years, sometimes they don't.
When I look at songs that I wrote a little time ago, to check the words, I normally find they've changed a good bit in the singing, normally for the better. The same goes for the tunes - I can't write the notes down, but I often find the chords I wrote down as an aide memoire don't fit with the way I'm singing the song now.
I don't think a song ever really finishes changing. If it's a really good song, it would still be there after you were gone, and still changing. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Brendy Date: 17 Jan 00 - 09:14 PM Songs do have an evolution period in my opinion. They can be interpreted in any style to suit the mood, or rather your mood moulds the style. But the 'good and bad' thing. I have a sort of difficulty in labelling my stuff 'good'. A lot of it is fairly 'deep' (there's another classification for youse), and most lines are normawrenched out of me. But to label it 'good' would probably put me in a position of judgement over my own stuff, and such power can lead to conceit and a certain 'bigheadedness'. To label it 'bad', on the other hand, is to denigrate your talent, nay, yourself. Shambles ahd it close to the mark, I think, when he said 'Good enough'. The song is going to still evolve. It has to get out of it's infancy, find it's legs, go to school, start smoking and drinking, grow a beard and develop into a well rounded song. B. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Little Neophyte Date: 17 Jan 00 - 09:34 PM McGrath, I really like your analogy about breaking in a pair of boots. Makes a lot of sense to me. I guess you can also grow out of your boot, or have boots that never seem to break in and feel comfortable. Then there may be boots you love so much, you never want to take off. Isn't that what they said about Woody Guthrie. He never took his boots off. I read somewhere he even slept with them on. BB |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: WyoWoman Date: 17 Jan 00 - 11:28 PM JenEllen-- I've been making my living by writing for 20 years and it still is exceedingly hard to sit myself in this chair and write. And then not to simply delete what I've written. I have this certain circle of friends and family I will send things I've written to get their reactions before I send it out into the big world or into the dumper. The folks I send it to first are only two or three, and they are writers and/or editors themselves, so I'm not just looking for someone to pat my fanny and blow smoke in my ear (although ... wait a minute .... no, nivver mind...)I just don't trust my perceptions that much, so I let people who have the training and expertise -- and my complete permission to tell me where the writing doesn't work -- give me an assessment before I allow myself to either flush it or publish it. As an editor, one of the things I most often see in beginners is that they have a good idea or a good start, but then they either stray off into way too much cleverness or cuteness or drama or ... just extra stuff that the story doesn't need, and they either don't self-edit well, or they don't have someone who knows a thing or two about structure going after their stories with their pruning shears. Knowing what to snip out is just as important as knowing what to put in.
So, no, it doesn't necessarily get easier, nor do you necessarily develop some WW |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Willie-O Date: 17 Jan 00 - 11:54 PM On the rare occasions when I get around to writing a song, and finish it, its because I really like it while I'm involved in creating it. Usually after its done, it sits and sits and sits...for some reason the break-in period, as mentioned, is the hardest to do, cause it feels like work that isn't (for me) accompanied by the pleasure of a creative rush. So quite a few songs never get past this stage. That's when you need to share them with your peers so they can tell you which ones to keep working on...(not that you should always take someone elses advice on this) W-O |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: sophocleese Date: 18 Jan 00 - 12:52 AM Wordsworth had Coleridge for a friend. A good ear and editor can be very, very helpful. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Escamillo Date: 18 Jan 00 - 01:04 AM I've never tried to write songs or poetry, but I wish to tell you how much I enjoy the thread. There's always something to learn in here. And I'm happy Rick is a fellow NTB (Night Tea Brewer) Un abrazo - Andrés |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Peter T. Date: 18 Jan 00 - 11:12 AM While I am sure that part of having trusted friends talk to you about your work is to get strong feedback, much of it surely is that in the hard parts, you need to believe in the existence of what you are creating, and the existence of yourself, and you need other people to reassure you, even if the cost is criticism. A writer friend told me that when he writes he is sucking out his own life energies and putting it into the work, so that it will live, and have a shape. While this is going on, he is on life support (the other new life he is creating is the fragile extended life support). I have a minor version of that: when I have anything important to write, everything around me becomes a mess, because all my energies are going into organizing that other thing. As scientists would say: order requires entropy elsewhere. (The example of Wordsworth scares the hell out of me, when I think of what it cost Coleridge to help Wordsworth be Wordsworth). yours, Peter T> |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Liz the Squeak Date: 18 Jan 00 - 11:38 AM Great advice, but I don't do the tea thing, except when camping, when I am known as the tea fairy (complete with wings, wand and tiara now!) because no matter how hungover I am, I always seem to be the first one up, except for the day I got stuck in my sleeping bag, but that is another story..... and probably a song too... LTS |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Penny S. Date: 18 Jan 00 - 12:57 PM I've only ever sung my stuff when it's a parody, like the Ofsted songs we generated here back in October. Then it doesn't matter (and everyone was so high, they'd have appreciated anything). Writing, however, (including university work, even) is different. That's me, out there. This week I've done a piece for literacy hour, heavily disguised as SF, and very derivative of Asimov, Zenna Henderson and probably others, but really about a boy who hates school so much that he has an enuresis problem. (One of the boys does, and the purpose is to flush out the problem (Urghh!) so that it becomes something less oppressively "I'm the only one this happens to".) I handed it to our year leader to have it vetted. She said that it would do. I feel put down. I worked hard at that (and revealed my secret past). I cannot imagine singing anything I'd written in that way to an audience, and watching them as I did so (reading happens somewhere else), and have the greatest admiration for those who can. Penny S. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Neil Lowe Date: 18 Jan 00 - 01:05 PM I'm not a professional musician, nor do I aspire to be one. I don't have any desire to play in front of an audience. I just get great enjoyment from sitting down at the kitchen table and plunking along to songs that are not much more complicated structurally than three chords. Any more than that and it's too much like work. It would take all the satisfaction out of it for me if I depended on music for my livelihood. The only person I aim to please with my playing and writing is myself. It becomes a very personal endeavor in that respect. Therefore, on that rare occasion when the muse strikes, I am writing for an audience of one - myself - and if I like what I've written I have great confidence in the finished work. Later if I happen to trot it out to, say, the one who may have been the initial inspiration for the song, I am not devastated if that person doesn't like what I've created. It only means that maybe what I've written doesn't mean anything to anyone else but me. As long as I'm happy with it, I don't care what anyone else thinks about it. My belief in the song's integrity isn't dependent on external opinions. Most of what I consider my best stuff seems to have written itself in thirty minutes or less, but then again, I'm not trying to create something on the level of Ives' Symphony #4. Neil |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Jan 00 - 01:42 PM Three chords is ample for some of the most beautiful songs there are.
Reemmebr, the chords are just the accompaniment - what matters is the song, and that's just a melody line (unless there's someone else singing along with you and putting in harmonies). |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Bert Date: 18 Jan 00 - 01:59 PM I am shameless about singing my songs. I'll impose them upon anyone unfortunate enough to be trapped in the vicinity. I wasn't like that when I first started though. The trick is to join a songwriters club. These clubs exist solely to praise one anothers' songs, which is a very necessary function for many songwriters. There is one in our area called 'The Philadelphia Area Songwriter's Alliance'. It's a great club where you can take your songs and get really good constructive criticism without any hint of being put down. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: MMario Date: 18 Jan 00 - 03:12 PM Bert - I'm with you. But then again, I'm a comlusive singer, so .... But I figure that unless I sing the song to someone, I'm NEVER going to find out whether or not ANYONE likes it.... MMario |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Brendy Date: 18 Jan 00 - 08:54 PM I think that sometimes other peoples' opinions can tend to confuse the matter. It just gives you one more one more pressure to do it to another's guidelines. I get asked to sing my own stuff from time to time, and when I do, I don't have really have all that many fears about how others will take it. My difficulty comes with the 'baring of the soul', which is a totally different matter. For a song to be totally yours it has to be TOTALLY yours. Warts and all. We shouldn't classify our creativity in other peoples' verbiage, otherwise you are only writing something for the sake of getting it down rather than describing YOUR experience. Be true onto yourself in songwriting, unless of course you WANT to collaberate (joint authorship and all that). Songwriting and performance are excercises in self-confidence building, and nobody can really do that for us in an objective manner. The "Oh that's very nice..." can be a great placebo when you have just asked someone else their opinion, the same way as "That's shite..." can take the wind out of you for a very long time. If you are confident, or getting confident, at expressing your thoughts through verse and music, then the pleasure is gained by knowing that you have expresed your reasoning in terms that can be related to by others. Not necessarily everybody (otherwise we would all be writing Spice Girl songs), but those with whom you are trying to make a connection. Once other people start getting involved in that process (I think), not only does it take away your individualism, it also defeats the object. |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Rick Fielding Date: 19 Jan 00 - 02:03 AM I've spoken to about 10 folks (most getting up there in age) who were involved with the "critic's group" organised by MacColl in the 60s, and it sounds fascinating. I'm a great fan of the man, but ohhhh, would I have loved to call him to task for some of those "American style" drekkie anti-Vietnam songs of his' and Peggys'. Some were worse than the war itself. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Confidence/lack of, in 'Your own' Songs. From: Liz the Squeak Date: 19 Jan 00 - 08:42 AM Re: the Critics - just goes to prove that experience provides the best basis for writing anything, be it poetry, prose or song.... So much of MacColl's stuff bears little resemblance to the real thing, he did some great stuff, but if I were him, I wouldn't let 4-5 great songs stop me feeling ashamed for the rest of the crap, which is why there are three songs I wrote years ago that will never see the light of day again. I read them again last month. They're still shite... LTS |
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