Is this it, then?

Subject: Is this it, then?
From: Chet W.
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 05:14 PM

All of the weirdness going on here lately is a sad state of affairs to say the least. Unfortunately, there are people in the world whose only pleasure is in spoiling someone else's, and while I admire the attempts to reason with them, please understand that it will do no good. If you get angry, they win. If you try reason, they are delighted in having put you to the trouble. If you give up and go away, their victory is complete. They have no sense of right and wrong, and no conscience as most of us understand it. The only possible solution is to ignore them completely, but can we really get organized and unified enough to do that? I'd like to think so, but the temptation to come back at them with some kind of response is going to be too great for a lot of us. I have enjoyed this place very much the last few years (I'm not saying I'm leaving), but as we seem to be at the mercy of a different species right now, I'm in favor of whatever can be done to make things back like they were. I don't know what it will take, but my advice is not to try to understand the pathetic minds that have invaded this forum. They cannot be understood as humans. So please feed them the only poison that works, which is lack of attention.

Chet

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Áine
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 05:31 PM

Thank you, Chet, for saying what I've been thinking for days now. Only if we -- as a group -- refuse to respond to these kind of postings will they stop. I've posted this link before, but, I'm asking everyone to click here and read through this entire thing. It will open your eyes. This kind of person only wants you angry, upset and responding to it. Sit on your hands, take a walk, listen to some music, read a book, whatever you have to do to keep youself from responding -- Just don't give it what it wants.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 05:44 PM

Thanks for starting this Chet, please help us see it though.

I make a choice to largely ignore those who would intentionally disrupt the free flow of views, on the forum. In part out of a greater loyalty to the victims of those attacks and with the view that it is the ONLY way to deal with this problem. It must be accepted however, that for this policy to work, all contributors here must follow it and that is very unlikely to happen, unless ALL contributors can be convinced of the serious nature and the full extent the problem. There are new folk looking in all the time who must wonder what on earth is going on?

It must be recognised that to seek to impose a course of action, when this happens, on those who only see the more recent occurrences and are amazed and surprised by the reactions to it here, is counter-productive. For that imposition is in effect is what is happening when threads are stopped (for mostly the best intentions).

For is the present situation not a defeat? How do we deal with this in the future without tearing ourselves apart?

The only thing we can and MUST do, I would suggest, is to continue the debate in a civilized manner and ignore all of the obviously insulting posts, whoever they purport to come from. For to do otherwise IS to admit defeat, that is to allow those, who would try, to succeed in inhibiting our contributions to a free exchange of views. For at times like these there is no shortage of things to say, just a shortage of a safe place to say them. The endless speculation on the nature of the beast is not helpful either, 'it' is not on any ones side, and I would suggest that we just try to work out a way to limit the damage 'it's' methods cause.

Apart from talking about it. What I would suggest is the creation of a thread that would contain links to past threads which displayed the worst excesses of 'it's' posting and of subsequent reactions to them. There is no shortage of them as this is a long running problem. It would not make pleasant reading but it would take a long time to go through and by that time the heat may be gone. Links to this thread could be placed in any thread, by anyone, in order to alert a poster to the full extent of the problem. They can then decide themselves on what course of action to take but it would then at least be an informed opinion and thus one, to be respected, once made.

Hopefully this present situation will be the last time Mudcatter's allow them selves to be divided by this?

The view is held by some, that 'it' is a poor stray dog that bites others but not me. That view is held because the kick on the dog is witnessed but not the pain of the bite. It is not too hard to find those with those pains and when such an uninformed view is expressed, it just adds to that pain. ALL posters however, cannot be expected to know the extent of that pain and its causes, if they do not see it and if we will not tell them?

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: fulurum
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 06:01 PM

i, fulurum, hereby take the pledge to no longer respond to the destuctive comments we have had of late. I am here to learn and help if i can. thats all i intend to do from now on. fulurum

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Llanfair
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 07:13 PM

I have stood on the sidelines (sat on the fence?) all through the latest piece of interaction. Perhaps it's because I am very empathic, perhaps because I'm British, or just because I cannot make assumptions about people I have never met, whatever the reason, I find myself unable to develop or maintain an interest when this kind of thing happens. Some people like to share their interests and skills with others, some like to express opinions about these interests and skills, positively or negatively, and people express their hurt and bewilderment when the response is not positive.
There is a lot of "talk" that tries to pinpoint what it is about this particular forum that makes it special and different.Not surprisingly, there is no definitive answer, no absolute formula, that it follows.
Human interaction is fluid, it changes from day to day, week to week, and so does the Mudcat Cafe. Every posting changes it, every person's opinion or knowledge widens the parameters, and so it moves and grows.
I don't expect all the people who contribute here to be able to accept the views of others, and be non-judgemental, that takes years of training and working with people who are not considered socially acceptable, but tolerance, and the ability to value people even if their views are different to our own, and let them know that they are valued, is a social skill that I believe is important.
I will sit on my fence, now, and watch this site evolve.
Bronwen.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 07:23 PM

I have mostly ignored the venom and have mourned the disappearance of several loved 'Catters- anyone seen Sandy lately? I will continue to offer positive contributions and ignore the ugliness. Hope it helps.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Chet W.
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 07:46 PM

"Non-judgemental" sounds like a nice word, and surely to judge is not something to be taken lightly. But to have a strict policy against "judging" is just as naive and irresponsible as some other policies we have mentioned. Obviously there are lines that are not crossed if we wish to maintain something that can be called civilized (and that is, of course, a matter of personal values). I do not value, for example, those who think that genocide is an option for solving their problems. I do not value the choice of unprovoked violence, be it physical or otherwise, no matter how appropriate it might seem in somebody's twisted mind. I have worked with people who were deemed socially unacceptable in a big way, as a teacher in juvenile prison for 8 years. I found that while I wanted to help them all, with some the last thing I wanted was to understand them. Does anyone really want to understand a child molester? Not only is it futile, it only can do damage to those who try. I suggest that these anonymous "anarchists", who obviously have no understanding even of the term they use to identify themselves, fall qualitatively into that category. Of course if civilization is not desired (I admit that it is a wholly artificial creation) then maybe they have found a home. But my sense is that most of us here would prefer a civilized place to talk.

Chet

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 07:50 PM

The dilemma is not a new one:

"Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?"

And of course Hamlet decides on "taking arms", and the play ends with the stage covered by dead bodies.

I think The Shambles idea of a Thread of Past Horrors makes a lot of sense. It has a built in danger that, while for people of goodwill it would be a warning not to get carried away or respond inappropriately, for some of the people who've been surfacing recently it would not be a warning so much as a model.

And another thing which makes sense is to carry on this kind of discussion outside the context of other threads.

There are several things things going on here -
1) a continuing negotiation and debate as to what kind of customs and conventions we have here. The key thing in dispute is how far there should be limits on topics of discussion, or whether this should be purely about music and song - and what sort of music and song. And that in itself can be boring and repetitious, but does need to happen, partly because people want it to happen, and partly because it can have some value.

2) Another type of debate we have is over particular topics, which may be closely related to songs -arguments about Ireland, or about guns, or potentially about lots of other things. And these are both about the actual issues involved, and about the propriety of discussing them in this forum. And they can get very angry at times, and unfair arguments can be used.

And all these are in my view valid things to discuss - but not in a way that breaks down fellowship. And I know that at times we have failed to do this.

3) But what has happened recently is different from that - we've had intentional disruption, some of it in "fun", some of it in hatred.

Some of it has been done in "fun", some of it has been done as a way of bullying "enemies" into retreat and submission. Some of it has been done in a way that is quite frightening, and seems to indicate real disturbance on the part of those responsible. And the only way to deal with that kind of thing, I believe, is to ignore it.

So what I am suggesting, in a horribly long post (for which I apologise) is that when one of the real debates rears up again, if it's in a thread that is already in existence, we try to shift the discussion to a new thread, and remind ourselves of what can go wrong. (The Shambles' which I called the Thread of Past Horrors would come in here.)

And when we come across we just ignore it. Which is difficult, especially when someone we respect has just been unfairly attacked.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 07:54 PM

Last paragraph mangled by me. Should read:
And when we come across the kind of intentionally hurtful disruption I've just been talking about, we just ignore it. Which is difficult, especially when someone we respect has just been unfairly attacked.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 08:03 PM

I would recommend instead of sitting on hands, going for walks, reading of books, etc. is to spend that valuable time, not to mention phone bill, posting to threads that interest you (like music one's for example), instead of starting or contributing to ones like this, which generally complain about complaining about the fact that nobody is posting to music threads anymore.
I'm getting dizzy.
Breandán

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 08:25 PM

I've thought a lot about all this, trying to figure out what would bring peace to the Forum and still accommodate the concerns of everyone. I hate all this animosity, but I don't think the solution is for one group to shut up and go away, and for the others to rule without challenge. Everybody has valid concerns here, and we need to respect the ideas of everyone and come up with a workable consensus. I wrote something up and posted it in the latest healing thread. I'd like to ask you to take a look at what I said and think about it.
It think it's important to remember that we're all here to enjoy ourselves and to enjoy each other's company, so we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST,MTed
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 08:51 PM

The real problem that I am having, and, by the looks of it, that a lot of other people are having, is not with other what others are posting or not posting, is that I can't log on, because my cookie has expired, and when I try to renew it, I am told that the system doesn't recognize my name, and then when I try to just enter a new membership, it tells me I am already a member--

I have had this trouble for more than a month, and have seen no solution for it--

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 09:04 PM

MTed, tried a suggestion in the help forum earlier - haven't seen a reply there yet.

Joe, what can I say regarding you other post - maybe that is the voice of common sense...

Jon

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 09:11 PM

There have been quie a few "GUESTS" here of late, and because of my general belief in the basic good of human nature, I don't believe that they are all the same person and up to the same scullduggeriness.
Oh yes! Even the fabled Brendy had Ted the GUEST's trouble, a little before all this thing erupted, and although not a religious man, I did thank God for small mercies. But laziness got the better of me (see appropriate thread), and I joined under another nom de plume, having resigned myself, with no small amount of regret, to the fact that Brendy was well and truly in that big Recycle Bin in the sky.
Shows you how wrong you can be.
So now I am two, (Hell, if 'Spaw can do it so can I).
But I'll leave you to guess!!
Breandán

Subject: Logon Problems
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 09:18 PM

MTed and Jon - I try to make sure all the Help Forum questions get answered, but a few get missed at times. I just posted an answer to Art, who had a similar problem (click here to see if the same solution will work for you). If your problems continue, send me an e-amil with your user name, real name, and e-mail address. If you had a different e-mail address in the past, give me that one, too. You'll find my e-mail address at bbc's Mudcat Resources, or you can click on my name below to e-mail me.
Max gets kinda busy at time, so I handle most of the Help Forum messages since I'm an old retired guy (well, how 'bout a young retired guy?).
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Chet W.
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 09:20 PM

You don't have to respect the views of people who violently attack others, whether by hand or word. If somebody is performing an armed robbery on your person, compassion does not require you to think of their personal difficult past and present. Whatever you can say about the healing threads and other non-musicals, they were not hurting anybody.

Chet

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST,MTed
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 09:22 PM

I tried your tip before, as I said, about twenty times, Jon, but thank you for it anyway--and Brendy proves me right, that others have had this trouble--also, since Brendy seems to be one of the personae at the root of all this 'trouble", then the problem that I mentioned is really at the bottom of all of this--

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST,dick, susan, MAX from gargoyle
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 09:26 PM

Brendy....yes....the MC is CLEARLY labeled - at the top of every page

The MudCat/DT is about MUSIC!!!

Unfortunately, a very few, but wonderfully well intentioned, and kind hearted, generous souls, with lots of compassion/but no desire for committment, continue to

1. "talk within the sets"
2."clap off beat"
3. "applaude when there is a full-measure-rest...thinking it is the end "
4. "carry on discussions about their neighbors"
5."order another round - when the order all-around is disorderly"
6.and "basicly, have no musical background but are DESPERATE to relate to some sort.....any sort .....of real, or immagined "community."
7. Are clueless, expect respect, demand respect, but have NEVER read the introduction to this site.

Oh,,,,,I DOOOOO, love B.S.!!!

I am full of it....to the gills, over flowing ....to the max...and I probably contribute 95% b.s. to this board however, I do recognize it AS SUCH....and would NEVER consider calling it something else.....when an "OUTSIDER" suggests "OTHER" nomenclatures like "OS",,,,,,"MR" ....Non-Music.......and the go out and recruit peers.....it is obvious that THEY are the ones attempting to change the focus of the clearly labeled MudCat

I am PROUD to be considered the "demon." I dearly, appreciate the jousting with the well established personaes of this board........

But realize, None Of This Is Real!!!!(any more than the boss that fired you this morning because you used company time to post messages to cyber-space......or the fictitional paycheck you will not recieve on the 31st)

The MC has helped me grow both as a person
...........................................................and also as a musican.... I have solved mysteries or the musical and discovered things I never imagined
I am thankfull for the acceptance of myself as a keyboard player that lacks the intimacy to be found between a guitar, harp, banjo, mandolin-player (there are mechanical constructs which limit our erotic contact with the object of our desire.)

However....the bottom line is the3 MC is about MUSIC

NOT!!!!!

o.s....or m.r.

Dammit....there are about 8,543 other places to talk about ....other shit.....there is only ONE PLACE in the entire inter-net-universe......to permanently deposit and permanently record your own immediate familie's songs and lyrics.....

Dearest, Max, dick, susan.....

If I had my personal wish......at the end of two years I would like to see.....a simple "keyboard" ...."on- screen" where people could type in the melody....replay it....correct it....and then submit it...with lyrics.....the DT........(this would be far more fruitful than "GUESTS" added to threads that desparage "healing"

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 09:31 PM

Think again, Chet. The bad behavior of people does not govern the validity of their opinions. You should know that from your own experience - I'm sure you've encountered many evil people who have some very valid ideas. Besides, not everyone who opposes the healing threads is in the habit of attacking people. You have to look at the issue and judge it on its own merits. "Not hurting anybody" is not the sole gauge of the value of something, either.
Both sides of this debate have validity. What we need to do is find the common ground. How can we accommodate the chit-chat, the healing people, and the music and intellectual discussions, and make the whole community thrive?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 09:40 PM

Ted, you have the perception of a paper bag my old chum
I am not one of the one's who 'at the root' of all this, and I would hope for an apology from you for saying so.
If there were libel laws on the internet, your ass would be well and truly be mine.

Because I'm not.

Don't you EVER presume to judge me!!

And keep your paranoia to yourself and your shallow pals

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 09:55 PM

gargoyle does actually have a point...

this place is supposed to be about music

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Chet W.
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 09:56 PM

Of course you're right Joe, and I'm not questioning the validity of the debate, never have. What I was trying to say that when a troubled person is "in the act" of committing violence, their troubles and their opinions are of no consequence "at that moment". When that moment is over we can talk. Since you mention evil, yeah that is what I was talking about referring to understanding child molesters. If someone is truly evil (which I am very cautious about saying and I've only known one personally, other than some of my former clients) then their ideas on other subjects may indeed be valid and interesting but if they express themselves with violence they are not worth the trouble that it would take, even if it were possible, to understand them or even put up with them. I don't think it's possible, not with a mind that is either shaped by nature or by some civilized aspect of culture. Not many people can out-liberal me, but actively cruel people are their own problem, not mine. Just not interested.

Chet

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:00 PM

From what youve been saying, Chet, I think most of the world could 'out-liberal' you

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:07 PM

Joe, aren't there a few things that we could ALL agree on?

1. There are BS Threads that are so ridiculous that they aren't worth anyone's time ie"what time is it where you are?"

2. There are Music Threads so obscure or even boring that they aren't worth anyone's time ie"alternate verse structure to Sir Giles of Cornwood sought"

3. That we have the ability to avoid or ignore each of these?

4. That we also have the obligation, as members of what is a COMMUNITY of people attempting to coexist in relative harmony, to use honest argument or respectful humor , rather than character assassination and intimidation to persuade others to our view? And shouldn't those who violate this behavior be held in scorn, whatever their motives?

The problem is not so much Music vs BS. It is the tactics being utilized in these arguments by some who are rightfully on the very fringe of this forum.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:10 PM

Well penned Blondie.

Greaseball

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:15 PM

Is not the fact that you consider "alternate verse structure to Sir Giles of Cornwood sought" obscure and boring, intimidatory in its own way?

Some people are interested in such things, and it certainly has more validity than much posted here.

Mudcat will never be as any of us would truly like it - can we just stop arguing and accept that?

I doubt it

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:19 PM

I didn't say that Sir Giles didn't have his place in the Forum, just as "what time is it" does. I just don't wanna read em. I don't care if you wanna read em. Doesn't affect me either way, you see?

"Mudcat will never be as any would truly like it- can we just stop arguing and accept that?"

AMEN BROTHER

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Thomas Covenant
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:22 PM

And I have to agree with Catspaw49
Excellent, truly excellent

Subject: Trolls and Flamers, an Internet Bestiary
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:27 PM

Trouble, is, LEJ, that it gets messy when we start expressing that scorn, no matter how justified that scorn may be. Flamers crave attention. Feed them by giving them attention, and they get worse.
Sometime this week, somebody posted a link to very interesting explanation of the people who disrupt newsgroups and forums like this. Most common are the flamers we've become so familiar with. However, there is a less common type of disruption can be worse - that's the disruption caused by trolls, people who invite flamers to attract them, and then generate prolonged, nasty threads by acting as martyrs once they've been attacked. Trolls may crave attention even more than the flamers do, and indignant or scornful responses to flamers are sure to generate that attention. If you wish to express sympathy for the victim of a flamer, whether that victim is a "troll" or not, it's best to do it in a private message to the victim, rather than exacerbating the situation by posting to the thread.
The psychology of the whole thing is fascinating, but it's too bad we have to deal with it here.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:32 PM

Good point, Joe, and all too often I've counterattacked when I felt someone was way out of line. I guess I need to understand that people who do that are unlikely to experience either shame or a change of heart.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Chet W.
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:33 PM

I'm with you all the way on that one Joe!

Chet

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:35 PM

Joe,

I don't know what the answer is, and you seem to to be one of the few who have expressed a reasonable view and not gotten on any side.

For myself, I think a good deal of the problem is that we've collectively decided that there's a 'big problem'

I think that if we all chill out a bit, accept the occosional 'troll' as being inevitable, and just get on with life, we wont have a problem any more...

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Melbert
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:39 PM

I'm a lurker and occasional contributor to Mudcat, and I've learned a lot from the musical side for which I'm grateful.
I see a lot of parallels (is that spelt right?) here with some experience we had a few years back here in the UK. As I start to think about this it sounds a bit daft, but I think it is relevant.
When CB Radio was legalised here in the UK (I think it was '81) we had some great fun with it. At first, listening in, you got the impression that people bought a CB set in order to be able to call up people that they'd never met, in order to tell them what CB set up they had obtained! As it evolved some good discussion forums grew, some serious, many others less so. For us as a couple with young children then, it was such a change from watching TV - it was almost as if the art of conversation had been re-invented. We found ourselves chatting happily to all sorts of people, who under other circumstances we would never have become acquainted with . Some of these people remain good friends until this day, despite the fact that we've moved hundreds of miles from where we then lived.
However, after a while the "vandal" element crept in. Would be disc jockeys jammed the airways for hours on end, usually with an atrocious selection of music played through low quality equipment. Regular discussion forums were disrupted by usually anonymous contributors of uncertain parentage and having extremely limited vocabulary, or even just being "blanked out" by someone keying a dead mike over the conversation.
The end result? CB is, I think, pretty well dead now in the UK apart, perhaps, from the trucking community

I go to a regular music session each week where I meet with the same group of friends. The common interest which brings us to the pub is music, but that doesn't mean that's the only subject we speak about all evening. I think for most of us it's obviously the music which brings us to mudcat, but that, as we engage in cyber conversation with other participants it becomes inevitable that discussion will drift into other areas. The anonymity afforded by cyberspace allows us the luxury of being, perhaps, more forthright than we would normally be in face-to-face discussion with acquaintances and strangers. If we were talking face to face in a pub there are, I'm sure, times when we wouldn't give full vent to our true opinions or feelings for fear of causing offence and perhaps receiving a knuckle sandwich in reply. I know I've been wound up and offended by a few of the things I've read here (what they were is not relevant to this discussion, but I'm referring to "serious" postings, sometimes contained in the music threads, even!). My way of dealing with that is to take myself off somewhere nicer for a while (the internet's a big place) and rejoin the conversation when the guy I don't like has gone away. Others may respond differently and perhaps at least some of the offensive postings started via this route.
It would be a crying shame if we had to say 10-10 to the Mudcat. Perhaps if contributors think of postings as being a little more like a "real" conversation then fewer new antagonists will be created. As for those who're there already? Treat 'em like the drunken old bore in the pub. Ignore him and he'll go away
If you've read this far, thanks for your patience. Sorry for taking so long to say what I wanted to.

Mel

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:42 PM

Brendy....if you MEAN what you say/write

.................Then....... what YOU write is mean....and therefore,

I will.... ...................in turn .............. sue your ass''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''!!!!

However, ....because "this" is the internet what we "write"....may become what we "say"

Also, realizing of course,.......,,,,,that one is "liable" and the other is "slander."

Get a good rep......and recognize that "Legal Eagle" probably has time available.....and can use a few shillings in the pocket.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:55 PM

Brendy,

I do apologize, didn't intend to blame you for anything--in fact--I was only talking about the fact that you had mentioned that you had problems similar to mine, and that you had been forced to give up your name--Unfortunately, I tend to write and rewrite my entries before I post them,and had been in the process of rewriting a sentence when I inadvertently posted an unfinished message--if I caused you any discomfort through my error, please be assured that it was not my intent.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: bbelle
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:17 PM

For heaven's sake, folks, you are taking up memory by starting and posting to yet another thread discussing how to deal with flamers and non-musical threads. It's been said at least a hundred times before ... same subject, same words. Cease and desist and get on with reading and posting to those threads which you find interesting and leave the other threads, which you do not find interesting, to others. Surely, you can find other subjects to debate, e.g., what is folk music? ... that dead horse hasn't been beaten in at least 2-3 months. Or do something really constructive like reading music-related threads ... you might be surprised at how much you can actually learn from those threads and may even have something relevant to add. By now, it should be apparent that ignoring flamers diffuses them. I'm beginning to think that it is this type of thread which is causing people to leave the mudcat, not the flamer threads. And if you are curious as those who have made themselves scarce, check out the Big Mick Birthday thread. Several former mudcatters posted best wishes to Big Mick, however, you won't see them posting to any other threads. This is a sad state of affairs ... moonchild

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:21 PM

Read, re-read, and re-read again and again....

Dear Brendy....what is YOUR complaint against TED?

Please re-read your postings in the morrow when you are not under the influence.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:32 PM

for the 27th time in the almost 4 years I have been here, I will repeat my point...we can argue till were blue in the face, but Max decides what is tolerable here...he said he WANTS this to be mostly a music site,,,but he is quite tolerant of the side issues that evolve within a large, diverse group. Trouble is, some seem to think they can railroad the place into being what THEY want. But Max has shown signs of having had enough of that..He may have some ways to control it, as with the new name thing...but those who who rather see this die than shut up about THEIR 'vision' still have not gotten the point...and I doubt that any of us can make it clearer...I am 98% ignoring the forces of disruption,,,but, as in rush hour traffic, sometime I can't keep from honking ...

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:35 PM

Bill,

I think that the vast majority of us agree - yet here we are honking our horns

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Chet W.
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:36 PM

See how easy it is to ignore them. Imagine the spit dripping from their crooked grins as the gleeful twinkle in their eyes fades from sheer irrelevance. I think they're starting to lose it. Next they'll throw their diapers.

Chet and Chivas

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Bugsy
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:41 PM

"So here's to you my rambling boy(Poster to this thread),

May all your rambling bring you joy"

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:46 PM

Thanks for the grin, Bugsy

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Brendy
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:48 PM

There are others, Joe, who blatantly accuse other people for things they would not do.
This place is a discussion forum, and I generally discuss. I do not post to threads that don't interest me and I have NEVER been the first person to wittingly hurl an insult. But if someone wants to take issue with me over something I am not guilty of; make comments about what they think is impaled up my nether parts, I have no hesitation whatsoever in telling that person where to get off.
I mentioned my alter-alter ego further up the page in what I thought was a moment of levity. And, of course, it went down like a ton of bricks, even if I did explain that my second incarnation occured BEFORE all this furore broke out. It seems I was too quick to thank God for small mercies, because now somebody has made it an issue.
I don't really know what 'Spaw was saying, but what does it matter what your name is, as long as it is not GUEST, and as long as you mean no harm.
But it seems to me that the ones who are complaining about social decency are among those who who sink to it's lower forms to express the higher forms of it.
That is a severe case of the pot calling the kettle black in my opinion
I have nothing against Healing Threads. I did after all live with a white witch for many years in the west of Ireland. The reason I don't post to them and pass on my vibes to the afflicted; you see I do read them I just want to leave youse in peace to get on with it.
It is quite ironic really. Take the "Anarchy Rules" Thread. A blatant and unqualified attack took place by someone barging in there and giving his well voiced reason as to why the thread should not be there in the first place. Was that wrong? Or is it only in the healing threads that that rule applies?
As I said I only post to places that I have an interest in, be it Jake Thackray songs, finding a link for someone or whatever, the threads which concern my home etc. and those BS threads which often give a welcome break from the dreary drudge and dread of your average day.
But there are those people who drop in quite unwarranted and insult and fling sometimes quite vulgar invective, and all in the name of decency.
If you came here to discuss, well then lets discuss. If you came here to argue, well as an integral part of any discussion there are at least two of them, well lets argue also. If you came here to accuse people from behind the cloak of your own particular anonymity, and call them "Trolls", "personæ at the root of this trouble", "greaseballs" and all of that kind of thing, well then YOU piss off out of the thread.
When I want to talk about music, and as a full time guitarist I talk about very little else in my average day, well then I do so.
If, on the other hand, I wish to share a thought about a thread other than music, well then I do that also.

But when people start shooting at the preverbial 'piano player', THAT's what gets on my wick. And that's when I have to be careful. It is the one's who are looking for an enemy, rather than those who define one are the most guilty. And if they take a swing at me, by God I'll take one back. I stop short of peeling away the layers one by one. To do that would make me just as bad as the rest of the old aunties some of whom, I can imagine sow their wild oats, so to speak, during the week, and go to church on Sunday and pray for a crop failure.
Whatever one person (who I don't know) has an argument with another person (who I also don't know), I's none of my business.
But if by my silence, or ambivalence in the issue, I am branded as a fence-sitter (I would have thought by reading your repetitive posts on the subject, you would have welcomed fewer interlocutors), and therefore as a greaseball or worse, then I think some people have some very strange values.
As I have said before, I am an Irish Traditional guitarist and music is what I do. and I find it a very calming experience, and activity like that tends to leave you more or less at peace with the world.

I would suggest that some of you should take it up.

Breandán MacÍomhair

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Bugsy
Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:49 PM

You're welcom

Cheers

Bugsy whoheavesabigsighofboredom.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Chet W.
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 12:02 AM

They're trying to run, but they keep slipping and falling in their own filth. There must be a place to hide somewhere. Who can they attack next that will either get really mad or really hurt? Who has got their toys? Their Nintendos are down to 63 bits, and somebody's got to pay!!

Chivas and Chet

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 12:07 AM

Fair enough Ted.
You had posted while I was in the middle of the above, and indeed, I also know about hitting the submit button.
My favourite one is accidentally right-clicking on the page and sending it to my E-mail programme. That one gets me rolling in the aisles everytime!
B.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 12:25 AM

Totally different subject M.Ted, how did you get your name back? Your last comments in the help forum indicated you were still struggling.

Jon

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 02:00 AM

Jon,

Without giving away to much to the trolls, I will just say that your hint about the punctuation of my name made all the difference--and I got my name back!!! I feel like almost like Martin Guerre!

M.Ted

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 06:27 AM

Moonchild.

It is nice to see you here and read your views. You find that you are contributing to the very kind of thread you think is not a good thing. Please don't take that wrong, for you are very welcome to the club, for we are all at least, consistent in our inconsistency. It is a difficult subject to deal with, is it not?

You say "For heaven's sake, folks, you are taking up memory by starting and posting to yet another thread discussing how to deal with flamers and non-musical threads. It's been said at least a hundred times before ... same subject, same words. Cease and desist and get on with reading and posting to those threads which you find interesting and leave the other threads, which you do not find interesting, to others"

The point I was trying to make is that, this subject IS interesting, if not very pleasant. It has not all been said, especially as those newer posters need to have their say. An example of this is the very welcome contribution here from Melbert, which makes some very good points indeed. Views from a newer poster must ALWAYS be welcomed, on this subject as on any other and it must be accepted that THIS SUBJECT, is exactly the same as any other subject. It may be tiring, for some, to see yet another What Is Folk, thread but to some it is their first time. Who are we to deny the joys or otherwise of our 'first time'?

Responding to the flamers makes it worse, yes. What also make it worse is the reaction and the perception, rightly or wrongly, that there is a 'core group' that would impose a perceived view that, everything has been said and that talking about only it makes it worse', on other contributors. This is a free forum for discussion and that is its purpose.

I may not agree with your views but I do respect those views and the courage it takes to 'go against the flow '. Thank you for stating them here.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: alison
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 07:02 AM

I, like many of the rest of you try to stay out of these threads, and yes, I know.. it's making this one longer..... but I have a suggestion...

I know that it is difficult to watch someone be attacked and not jump to their defense... but Max has given us the ability to send personal messages... therefore we can "ignore" the thread by not posting to it... and send messages of support, or annoyance via the personal messages to the people concerned (I know this depends on them using their own names).... this doesn't give the attention that is being sought publicly... and doesn't fill up many more threads with the same old stuff...

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 07:44 AM

Is GUEST the same GUEST as GUEST or not? Use a n alias if you wish, but please don't just sign in a GUEST, GUEST. And that goes for GUEST as well.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: jeffp
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 08:25 AM

I agree that ignoring abusive posts is probably the best way to deal with them. Personal messages are also probably the best way to show support, as they accomplish your purpose without adding fuel to the fire. This is the way I have tried to respond to these incidents, and the way I will continue to respond. I don't post to a lot of music threads because I don't always have anything to offer, but I read almost all of them and learn an awful lot by doing so. As to those who must try to disrupt things here, ignore them and they'll go poop in somebody else's sandbox. Just my 2 cents worth.

jeffp

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 09:26 AM

One of the reasons I initially loved this site was that if someone made a comment that could be taken as a friendly jibe or a nasty dig, people usually interpereted it as a jibe and responded in kind. We've let one individual change the entire climate of this place. Now if someone says something that could remotely be seen as snide, sarcastic or otherwise nasty, people seem to immediatly jump to the conclusion that it must be.

The motive of a troll is to start arguments and gain attention. If you respond to a troll by arguing, you're doing what they want. If you respond to a troll at all, you're doing what they want. There's also the "last word" syndrome, and the "$0.02/"£0.02" syndromes, and we're all guilty. (After all, I'm posting to this thread, am I not? Just gotta say something...can't let that go...I really should just drop it, but I can't...) Well, all those other people you and I wish would just "put a sock in it" feel the same way.)

Subject: Lyr Add: Newsgroup Personality
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 09:30 AM

And now, for a musical interlude:
---------------------------------

NEWSGROUP PERSONALITY
Words: Tom Holt, author of fantasy novels such as Who's Afraid of Beowulf and Expecting Someone Taller.
To be sung to "Modern Major General" by Gilbert & Sullivan

I am the very model of a Newsgroup personality.
I intersperse obscenity with tedious banality.
Addresses I have plenty of, both genuine and ghosted, too,
On all the countless newsgroups that my drivel is cross-posted to.
Your bandwidth I will fritter with my whining and my snivelling,
And you're the one who pays the bill, downloading all my drivelling.
My enemies are numerous, and no-one would be blaming you
For cracking my head open after I've been rudely flaming you.

I hate to lose an argument (by now I should be used to it).
I wouldn't know a valid point if I was introduced to it.
My learning is extensive but consists of mindless trivia,
Designed to fan my ego, which is larger than Bolivia.
The comments that I vomit forth, disguised as jest and drollery,
Are really just an exercise in unremitting trollery.
I say I'm frank and forthright, but that's merely lies and vanity,
The gibberings of one who's at the limits of his sanity.

If only I could get a life, as many people tell me to;
If only Mom could find a circus freak-show she could sell me to;
If I go off to Zanzibar to paint the local scenery;
If I lose all my fingers in a mishap with machinery;
If I survive to twenty, which is somewhat problematical;
If what I post was more mature, or slightly more grammatical;
If I could learn to spell a bit, and maybe even punctuate;
Would I still be the loathsome and objectionable punk you hate?

But while I have this tiresome urge to prance around and show my face,
It simply isn't safe for normal people here in cyberspace.
To stick me in Old Sparky and turn on the electricity,
Would be a fitting punishment for my egocentricity.
I always have the last word; so, with uttermost finality,
That's all from me, the model of a Newsgroup personality.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Micca
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 09:38 AM

Jeri, Thank you ,thank you thank you, that sums it all up in a verse and a very funny one too Micca

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 10:39 AM

Jeri, that is one of the funiest verses (to me) that I have read in ages... problem is it contains to much truth... loved it

Jon

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 11:14 AM

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!1

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 11:20 AM

PS: Jeri--do you have a parody for "I have a little book"... or whatever it's called...of ones who wouldn't be missed? I think it's tradition for every performance of The Mikado to write verses specific to that occasion.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 11:23 AM

My brain has slowly cranked around to an obvious thought that I should have put in my last post.

How would we deal with a new thread created on a subject that had been covered before?

We would gently refer the poster to those threads or provide links to them. We would recognise that not everyone would have seen the earlier threads or would have had a chance to contribute to the discussion.

We certainly would not state that 'we had said all there was to be said on this subject'!

Why do we not do the same with this subject or the same when flamers appear?

I do like Kevin's title suggestion of this thread (any other suggestions?) but I do take the point of the possible danger in creating it but the 'Boogeyman' is out there and is not going to go away if we just 'hide our eyes' and hope that it will.

Thanks for the good sense Jeri, and for the song.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: bbelle
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 11:56 AM

"quoth the raven, 'nevermore'."

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 01:35 PM

Lot of sensible things have been said in this thread. And a few silly things rightfully ignored.

Thanks for finding the song Newsgroup Personality Jeri - this whole episode has been getting too heavy, and it summed up some of the issues splendidly. Once it's on the DT, the next time I feel irresistably drawn to responding to something that doesn't merit a response, I think I might just stick a blue clicky thing to.

And, I agree with The Shambles that we shouldn't be embarrassed or frightened of going on about this kind of stuff, so long as we don't lay into each other in a way that damages people, or damages the Mudcat. Now that we have the improved Forum Super Search up at the top of bthe page it's a great deal easier to enable people to go delve back into the Archives and find out what people have said before, and build on that.Or avoid building on it, if that seems better.

I try to work on the philosophy that if its not worth killing over, it's not worth quarrelling over. You can really infuriate people that way sometimes... As Rabbi Lionel Blue puts it "Don't take it so heavy."

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 01:39 PM

And as The Shambles spotted, beingnthe prescient fella he is - I really like it better when I use my first name, Kevin. But I'm not risking tampering with the Cookie Monster, or God knows who I might turn into.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST,GUEST-GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 03:40 PM

Jeri.....an absolutly BRILLANT set of lyrics

Describes us to a "T"
Thanks

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 04:01 PM

Sorry to do this, but please, check the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension thread--it is an important music-realated issue--people here have been complaining about there not being a lot of music related discussion--well, here is an important music related issue that affects (in one way or another) all of us, and no one is even opening up the thread!!!!!

Angle brackets <> removed and link added to make the "Sonny Bono" thing visible.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 04:08 PM

Ted is referring to the "Sony Bono Copyright" thread.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: JVZ
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 04:18 PM

Gosh, I just like to come in and seek/share lyrics and such. I didn't know it was so complicated.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 22 Jan 00 - 08:12 PM

JVZ, I think you just said it all!
Jo

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 00 - 07:06 PM

1. Apologies for extending what is already an overlong thread. 2. I use Mudcat very little nowadays, due to some attacks on my threads which left me shocked and shaken. Up until then I had been very happy here. 3. Sad to see a thread about not attacking people in which one Mudcatter threatens another with a libel suit. 4. Why do I now have GUEST in front of my name? I have cookies switched off on my machine. A Mudcat that wants to put GUEST in front of people's names is sending out the wrong message. 5. I am not any of the GUESTs above, but don't wish to sign my name if you're going to behave as THAT kind of club. I am saddened. Good night all.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Jan 00 - 07:53 PM

GUEST above, I think you are overrecting to being Guest. In the first instance, it has been stated more than once that this is only a temporay solution and none of us know what the final soulution will be.

The situation was not caused by Mudcat but by the actions of one Mudcatter who apparently thought that pretending to be someone else was a joke. Regardless of motives, I believe that impersonating somebody else is a serious matter and that action needed to be taken fairly quickly to put a stop to it, especially in view of the recent outbreaks of paranoia that we have witnessed.

The problem with the cookies is unfortunate and I don't know your situation but in some cases it is possible to set your browser up to only accept cookies from certain sites e.g. On Internet Explorer, I think you could make Mudcat a Trusted Site and set the security for Trusted sites to accept cookies.

Jon

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST,And PROUD to be a GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 00 - 09:32 PM

Realize....that "guest" is a nomenclature or friendship

Sincerely, sorry that you are offended at being a "guest."

Pick-pockets, grifters, drifters, and mal-contents are not GUESTS

Only those of "quality" enter my home to spend the night

If you are a "GUEST" consider yourself honored

WE could have been "barred" but you are welcome,....because you are a "guest."

Please.....PLEASE sit down awhile, share the brew, enjoy the crew, and don't lift a finger....for "your are our guest"

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Jan 00 - 01:17 PM

As to whether we can all agree on a course of action. It's looking pretty good so far.

I also note that on Sunday, One million people in Spain's capital city, agreed that they would take to the streets to protest about a possible restart of a terrorist murder campaign.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 00 - 04:20 PM

Forum Search on 'Guest' really nails thing down. There are only 549 since it was instituted 5 days ago.

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: GUEST,Mbo
Date: 24 Jan 00 - 04:32 PM

Be our guest, be our guest, put our service to the test! Put your napkin on your lap, cherie, and we provide the rest! Soup du jour, hot hors d'oevre--why, we only live to serve! Please don't start complaining while the flatware's entertaining!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Is this it, then?
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 24 Jan 00 - 05:27 PM

Guest,

Since I. apparently am the one who was threatened with a lawsuit, due a misunderstanding which I clarified and appologized for, perhaps it will help you out if I explain that, for my part, I have gotten to be rather fond of Brendy, and(without trying to speak for him) and have had occassion to fire off posts like that occasionally, myself--so I have my own sense of where that sort of stuff can come from--

For one reason or another, the internet is a place where people can get fairly upset, from time to time--I think it is because, on one hand, it is very easy invest a lot of time and emotion in writing something (in this way really putting yourself on the line and exposing a vulnerability) and on the other hand it is also very easy to get carried away and either overstate something or esentially carve into stone a very fleeting sentiment--

I have been poking around on the internet to one extent or another for a quite a number of years, and Mudcat has much less of this volatility than I have seen anywhere else--(I have occasionally told people that it was worthwhile to start listening to folk music just so you could join)

Please don't get too upset by the occasional disorderly conduct, it just seems to go with the medium--

Aloha,

Ted