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English Tradition, part two
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Subject: English Tradition, part two From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Jun 00 - 09:32 PM "What is it with the English" has reached a point where it's too big a thread to maintain sensibly. We could probably also do without the silly wind-up stuff. May we continue the discussion here? Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Terry K Date: 10 Jun 00 - 01:53 AM I've gone right through the parent of this thread and there's an awful lot about Morris Dancing - but nobody has mentioned the anti-Semitism that is so blatantly exercised by the Morris Dancing authorities. I think it's disgraceful!!! Terry |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: The Shambles Date: 10 Jun 00 - 04:28 AM Thank you Malcolm. This is a link to the original thread What is it with the English. Can you explain a little more about Morris and Anti-semitism? |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Snuffy Date: 10 Jun 00 - 09:14 AM You have to be a complete prick to be a Morris Dancer! Wassail! V |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Jun 00 - 08:22 PM Well, maybe they ain't anti-semitic, but some of them are over-the-top when it comes to keeping women out of it. I'm not taking about the heated question of whether there should be single-sex dance-teams - that seems as reasonable with Morris dancing as it does with cricket and football and hurling.
But when you get a Morris side who won't allow females on the same bus as them, as happened recently with one local side near us recently - that's what I mean by over-the-top. I wonder - do they have Morris dancing on Mount Athos?
That's maybe trhread drift. But there's a relevance to it. In the Engish tradition", there is ritual dancing (Morris and other sorts), and there is barn-dance type social dancing, and there is individual clog dancing occasionally - but there seems to be no equivalent of the Irish sett dance, the sort you can get in the corner of a pub, in a lively session. Or if it exists it's existence kept very quiet.
So far as I can see, there are plenty of dances, both in the barn dance and in the Morris dance traditions, which are perfectly well suited to be English set-dances. I think that this gap is a major factor in holding back the ability of Engish traditional music to broaden its appeal, and to be able to feed into the new multicultutal traditions that are developing. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Ebbie Date: 11 Jun 00 - 12:38 AM OK, somebody: Please take the time to define or describe Morris dancing? (I'm probably the only Mudcatter who has no idea of it. But that's one!) I tried to look it up but mostly what I found was websites for it and a lot of tunes that are evidently traditionally played in it. I gather that many of the tunes are jigs? I know some of the tunes, such as Haste to the Wedding and The Rose Tree but most of them are new to me. So is Morris dancing a style rather than typified by the tunes? If someone will give me a quick summary, I will appreciate it. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 11 Jun 00 - 03:30 AM It's a type of dancing, like Salsa, or Flamenco. A group of people (male or female, it doesn't matter a hoot which) do particular 'set' dances. That's where 6 or 8 people dance to and with each other. It's a bit like country dancing or barn dancing, but with fewer people. The steps are not particular to morris, nor are the tunes, but the costume is. It's usually black or white trousers, white shirt and a waistcoat (vest) but can be anything you like. It is customary to have bells somewhere. For convenience these are on a bell pad, a pad of leather, not unlike a cat flap, that ties to the leg, just below the knee. Sticks can be used to emphasise beats or rythmns in the tune by knocking them together, big sticks like hickory pick handles (as used by most morris teams), little sticks or tiny sticks with bells on, doesn't matter except to the 'tradition' of the style of dance you are doing. In barn dancing these stick knocks are replaced by hand clapping. To be a morris dancer you have to accept that you will have the urine extracted from you at great length, and not least by your supposed nearest and dearest! And don't even get me on the baldricks!! LTS - morris/sword dancer widow........ every other weekend between now and September!
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 11 Jun 00 - 08:52 AM There is a useful general introduction to the Morris at The Morris Ring. We do tend to forget that not everybody knows what it is! Not being personally involved with it, I'm not aware of any current anti-semitic issues, though if I remember correctly there was an attempt by Fascists to infiltrate the Morris Ring in the 1930s. It would be interesting if Terry K could give us some details. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 11 Jun 00 - 10:46 AM There was a side performed here whose hats were decorated with badges saying "knockers to women's morris". It did strike me when I got involved in a discussion (mild word) on the subject that the inability to explain why, and the strength with which the tradition was defended was very like the CofE attitude to women priests. There's something very deep and difficult there. Not just tradition (I'm listening to Fiddler on the Roof now). The morris reaction actually coloured my feelings about the church arguments. Penny |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Llanfair Date: 11 Jun 00 - 01:18 PM What has been described so far is Cotswold Morris, and it, and it's derivatives are the type usually seen and made fun of! No-one takes the mickey of the Shropshire Bedlams, they are much too scary! They black up and wear top hats and motley, and shout a lot. Hwyl, Bron. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Ed Pellow Date: 11 Jun 00 - 01:49 PM Sorry if this is thread drift (though this thread has already drifted into being just about Morris dancing) Anyway, my question is: why do some Morris Teams blacken their faces? I've heard various answers; from it being a way for farmworkers to disguise themselves so that their land owners wouldn't recognise them, to various obscure pagan rituals. Can anyone enlighten me? Ed |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Ebbie Date: 11 Jun 00 - 02:26 PM Thanks for the info, everybody. In looking at the pictures on the Morris blicky, the word 'caper' does come to mind! I had heard of mummers, of course, but not of Morris dances. It occurrs to me to wonder if the UK or Europe, for that matter, has clogging, as we in the US have? But that is fodder for another thread. Thanks again. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 11 Jun 00 - 03:11 PM Oh, and Kevin, I was pretty sure dear Hermione was a rag. Too much of a sense of humour, you know. I just decided to play it deadpan. Penny |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 11 Jun 00 - 03:51 PM Ebbie: Of course we have clog-dancing! Where did you think it came from? Here is a brief article: History of Clogs & Clog Dancing in Great Britain (Especially around Hyndburn East Lancashire). Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Jun 00 - 05:40 PM As Penny pointed out, Morris Dancing is essentially set dancing. (Oh yes, there are other types of ritual dances around that get generically referred to as Morris, buit aren't really).
So is social English set dancing, in a non-ritual, and non-barn dance context, catching on anywhere? I'd be surprised in a way if it isn't, given the explosion of set-dancing in Ireland, and in the context of Irish dancing. But I've never come across it. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Snuffy Date: 11 Jun 00 - 07:22 PM As a Morris dancer I personally have no problem with women's sides, but some of the guys I dance with certainly do. One of the most effective morris displays I have ever seen was a ladies side dancing Vandalls of Hammerwich from Lichfield. They danced it totally differently to a male side, emphasising the delicacy and precision of the sticking, rather thean the force and energy. Different but equally valid - they had changed the feel of the dance to suit their own capabilities. But I personally don't feel that mixed sides really work - or not very often. What does anyone else think? Wassail! V |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Ebbie Date: 12 Jun 00 - 01:11 AM (Thanks for the link, Malcolm D. How very much I don't know!) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Ringer Date: 12 Jun 00 - 05:09 AM Do I not remember having read that the black faces was (were?) to provide anonymity. Because of the black faces, the dancers looked like Moors, hence Moorish Dancing which became corrupted to Morris. Presumably the tradition of blacking up fell away except for odd sides like the Shropshire Bedlams, Bacup Coconutters, etc, but the name stuck. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Ella who is Sooze Date: 12 Jun 00 - 09:39 AM Llanfair I saw the Shropshire bedlams recently... They do look very menacing... not to mention daft. But I couldn't help wondering that it must be a complete pain in the axxe to get that stuff off. Don't think I could ever get into it though... not my style. I think I will stick to the Irish Set dancing. aaaa 1234567...123 a 123 aaaa 1234567. lol Which is a great laugh. Especially when doing it enmass in market squares in Ireland. I would have liked to have had a go at clogging though (my late gran always said I should have - she bought me my first pair aged 1 year) but as it happens I followed the Irish side of the family. Ella |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Richard Bridge Date: 12 Jun 00 - 12:37 PM Actually everything I said was true. Just trying to flush Hermione into a gaffe rather than a congeries of minor errors. (There's a word for you Rick) |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: selby Date: 12 Jun 00 - 01:26 PM I danced with a mixed dance team with black faces, in our area the dancers used to dance through peoples houses and take soot of the fire back to wipe on their faces, so that when at the end of the night when high jinks took place anonimity was assured. The are reports of the dancers performing for the local nobility and being provided with supper in the servants hall.The local history suggests that in the main it was driven by one family and they were "vagabonds". Keith |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Hermione Heyhoe-Smythe Date: 12 Jun 00 - 02:28 PM Trying to flush me into a what, Dickie? Who didn't get the Black Death reference? Ha Ha Ha!!! I think we have the answer to the original question, in a few of the above posts, er poles! Their arrogance!! Apologies to Bronwen; you I didn't mean to have a go at. :) H H-S |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 12 Jun 00 - 10:29 PM Now that we've got past the inevitable racist post, it may be time to resume the original discussion. Given that music works mainly in a social context, I suspect that the marginalisation of traditional musics in England may not be entirely unrelated to the changes that have been imposed on that social context by the increasingly monolithic brewing companies. When I moved to Sheffield in the early '70s, there was a lot of live, participatory music in the pubs. Piano-led singsongs in the main -music-hall and old popular songs with a bit of what we'd probably call folkmusic, though there were also instrumental sessions and, a mile or two up the road, traditional singers like Frank Hinchliffe at The Sportsman. The pubs were mainly composed of clusters of small rooms, so that singing might take place in one room, games in another and so on. All that changed as the breweries "did up" their tied houses, knocking down internal walls and installing jukeboxes. The space that had hitherto been available for home-made music disappeared; it wasn't considered profitable. There were, of course, exceptions: the Carolling tradition survived in spite of these changes, and has been extensively documented by Ian Russell; it survives in good health to this day. At that time, there was still a discrete Irish community here, and the pubs they used continued to encourage live music, mainly of the "Country & Irish" variety. Two are still running, and have live music most evenings, though the participants and repertoire are no longer mainly Irish. In other places, the tradition disappeared; until the mid '70s, the Old Horse still visited pubs in Dore (now a posh, Tory-voting area) at Christmas time -I believe that the Horse itself now languishes, pretty much forgotten, in a garage in Dronfield. In the last ten years or so, however, there has been a quite surprising expansion of live folkmusic round here, as publicans began to realise that it can boost profits considerably on otherwise quiet nights. It's a re-invented tradition, of course, but then again most traditions get re-invented on a regular basis. It's also a mix of English, Irish, Scots and American material; probably most of the participants are very vague about where one ends and the other begins. We also have a whole bunch of "Irish Theme Pubs", as do most cities in the UK just at present, but these are purely commercial things and will change again when fashion does. The point I'm trying to make here is that any tradition needs an available shared space in which to function; when that space is removed, the tradition may disappear into hidden areas, or disappear altogether if it is perceived -as it has been all too often- as belonging only to old people and other effectively marginalised groups. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Gervase Date: 13 Jun 00 - 07:51 AM Bloody good point Malcolm. So many old-style clubs and sessions in England have been squeezed out by the pub chains, who then "re-invent" traditional music as the inevitable Irish session, resulting in an ersatz experience which mirrors what's happened to English beer, bread and cheese. But, at the risk of being contentious, perhaps another reason for the popularity of canned Celticism is because we English are simply too boring, reticent and generally inept to make enough of an impact in the average pub. Sessions which really do work - like the Middle Bar of the Anchor at Sidmouth or the barn at Towersey - have a critical mass, both in terms of numbers and those with real talent, which can be literally breathtaking. I know that sessions and clubs are meant to bring on and encourage new performers, but there are limits to how much you can expect an audience to tolerate in terms of mistuning, forgotten lines, false-starts and goofs. Festivals bring out the best because talented folk are prepared to travel many miles to contribute, but local sessions rely on a very patchy mixture of local talent, and sometimes it just ain't good enough to warrant your average pub-goer turning down the footie and listening. I know I sound like a curmudgeon - and I realise those rare living saints who do actually get off their arses and organise sessions deserve better than my grumbles - but as a breed, we don't seem terribly good at enthusing people and getting away from the idea of folk as an f-word. Trouble is, we have to overcome three decades of stereotyping. I've lost count of the number of Aran jersey/beard/finger-in-ear/pewter tankard taunts I've heard, and what really hurts is that so many of them are true. Please, will someone prove me wrong with details of a regular English sing and play session somewhere within spitting distance of London that isn't part of a festival and which could be construed as traditional - and which isn't like the aftermath of Aunt Gertie's funeral? Sorry for the ramble, but I needed to get it off me chest! And, please feel free to rant back and put me right. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: sledge Date: 13 Jun 00 - 11:13 AM Gervase, If down Portsmouth way on Tuesday's, the Fighting Cocks Pub in Gosport has a regular, well attended play and sing around. Its been running for around three years now (but we still need a fiddle player if there's any in the locale) and the beer prices are very good. Cheers Sledge |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:50 PM Gervaise me old chum, your points are so true - especially in light of the fact that my local music session died last week, because they had the third change of landlord in as many months. Everyone wants to take over a busy pub, so they check the books. They see it's busy, take it over and immediately get rid of all those things that bring in the money and put in those that drive the real ale drinkers and hardened melodeon players underground, or back home with me on a Thursday, totally ruining the affair I'm having with my telly...... LTS |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:51 PM And the football.....! Once again, we stick to our great English tradition of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory..... LTS |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Penny S. Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:56 PM Arrogant - me? Some may be. Others of us creep around under cover of fondly imagined Celtic links or peasant backgrounds to deny any connection with the arrogant hoorays etc. Hence the abandonment of that which identifies us as the villains in Robin Hood etc. Penny |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Penny s. Date: 14 Jun 00 - 04:58 PM And that of course is the traditional stuff. who wants to be identified with what everyone reviles? Penny |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: The Shambles Date: 21 Jun 00 - 02:49 AM Having watched the Panorama TV programme on The low-life that attended Euro 2000 and listened to their 'songs', I wonder if this our living tradition?
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Kim C Date: 21 Jun 00 - 03:17 PM I don't know anything about Morris dancing either. But there was an article on Morris fiddlers in Fiddler magazine awhile back, and I thought they were dressed funny. They looked like they had ribbons & streamers & stuff hanging off them. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Penny S. Date: 21 Jun 00 - 03:54 PM Shambles, I just have to tell myself that being English means being part of a very diverse agglomeration of groups who never meet, have nothing to do with each other, and have absolutely nothing in common. That lot even gave being common a bad name. Penny |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Jim Dixon Date: 21 Jun 00 - 04:54 PM I just now got the joke which I first read a week ago! Morris dancers are anti-Semitic because you have to be a *complete prick* to be a Morris dancer! i.e. you can't be circumcized! Who else besides me missed that? Come on, fess up! |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Mick Lowe Date: 21 Jun 00 - 08:39 PM Oh Dear!!!! I've been away a couple of months and this is what you get up to behind my back.. I would set about putting the "record straight" viz English Traditional music, but you've gone off on so many tangents I'd be here all night and tomorrow as well... Let's try and address a few points... first any sexism involved with Morris Dancing... of course there is.. if you knew what Morris Dancing was all about you'd understand why.. namely that of the fertility of crops and livestock.. it is a pagan ritual (just like wassailing) born from the idea that man can fertilise Mother Nature...and thus ensure a good crop of wheat etc.. (hence it needs to be a male thing, unless Mother Nature has seen sense and come out of the closet).. over the passage of time the "Morris" has taken on board other "icons/symbolism".. i.e. the fool etc..depending upon the locality it is performed.. The Abbots Bromley Horn Dance on the 1st May has however still managed to retain much of it's origins despite Blithfield Hall being sold off and a housing estate built on it.. and yes I am bitter about this as my ancestors played a large part in making Abbots Bromley what it was.. alas no more... I've also come across the so called reference re the blackening of faces in some Morris troupes to "Moors" hence "Morris".. nice idea apart from the fact that the English were probably dancing some form of Morris long before they ever came across the Moors (Don't believe anything in Costner's Robin Hood).. Now's a good time to get yourself a sandwich and a cuppa because I'm going to rant on for a while yet.. It's not my fault.. you guys introduced so many varied points... Like dancing.. apart from the Morris that is.. and let's get the record straight here.. Barn Dancing is definitely an American thing.. and yes it is or was when I was a kid , endeavoured to be taught in schools.. and consequently for years after I detested anything that bore the slightest resemblance to it.. what they should have done and in fact now do.. is teach English Country Dancing.. on face value it may seem the same but once you get down to the nuts and bolts of it.. they are worlds apart.. well continents at least.. But none of that addresses what I percieve as the main thrust of this thread in so much as why don't you find any pubs in England playing "English Traditional Music"... The glib answer is you do.. i.e. find any Irish Theme bar and they are bound to be playing English or Scots music..that is reels, jigs and hornpipes are as Irish as the Pope is jewish.. What the original question should have been is.. Why do you only get the craic in pubs deemed as "Irish"... and that delves deep into the culture of the staid, conservative Englishman.. (I can say this because I am one).. the English having once ruled over the biggest empire this world has seen have now gone into abject withdrawl and readily denounce anything that may associate the "new liberal minded Englishman" with thoughts of tradition.. we are far too ready to take on board other cultures.. which don't get me wrong.. they are just as important (musically I mean).. but we have tended to lose our heritage in doing so... To the extent that come Friday night I play and sing in a pub in England that "Bills" the event as being an "Irish night".. I find it rather paradoxical that being a part of the English race that has for years endeavoured to subjucate the Irish (God alone knows why).. I now spend most of my time performing in an "Irish" pub in the heart of England.. I'm straying from the original concept of this thread... English Traditional Music is still alive (not sure about being well). the Spinners have a lot to answer for.. they have done more harm to English Taditional music than Val Doonican did to Irish. You can not appreciate "folk/traditional music/songs" without a sense of understanding or history.. the Irish (God bless them).. maintain their heritage (albeit poached from elsewhere).. the English are far too ready to throw their heritage into the skip and embrace any new culture that may alleviate any sense of guilt.. I've said too much without saying enough.. such is life.. This is somewhat a pet project of mine (like you haven't gathered that fact).. sometime in the future I hope to write "something" that will set out to make sense of it all.. if you want to contribute or even shoot down any theories I have.. please drop me an amail at mick@prof.co.uk... At the end of the day .. who cares where the music came from. so long as we enjoy it...
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Terry K Date: 22 Jun 00 - 12:12 AM well done Jim - have you been thinking of that all week? |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: MikeofNorthumbria Date: 22 Jun 00 - 07:59 AM Dear Mick Lowe, I'm pleased to encounter someone who'se thinking along the same lines as myself. (Apart, that is, from McGrath of Harlow - but he and I are partners in crime from way back.) If you'd like to read my thoughts on the subject in more detail, see my article "England, whose England?" in Rod Stradling's web magazine, Musical Traditions at http://mustrad.org.uk (where much else of interest can be found. I'd like to hear your response to it (or anyone else's for that matter). Wassail! |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Brendy Date: 22 Jun 00 - 08:09 AM England, Whose England? B. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Gervase Date: 22 Jun 00 - 08:59 AM Mike - a superb essay. But isn't it sad that any discussion of the English Tradition tends towards the elegaic than the celebratory? |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Jeremy Date: 22 Jun 00 - 10:01 AM Just finished reading this thread and would like to reply to Gervase who described the malaise affecting the English folk-singing-in-pubs scene very succinctly. To give him some hope, I can advise that there is a fortnightly session held in pubs in West Kent by The Travelling Folk where folksong/music is brought out to the public rather hiding it away in upstairs rooms. The Travelling Folk is a moveable folk session which only performs in the pub bar. The usual formula is for an MC to direct proceeding in a subtle way and to try to get the locals to join in or contribute a joke, story or a song. Anything can happen .. even Elvis Presley take-offs. Chorus songs are interspersed with ballads and music sessions and the main emphasis is to get the public joining in. No entrance fee is charged (of course) but if all goes well the publican passes the jug of beer around and a collection may be taken for charity. Different pubs are visited so that a pub only gets a couple of visits a year. The session frequently gets local billing in the pub or newspaper and are well attended. All musicians and singers are most welcome. The next few dates are as follows: 12/7 The Black Horse, Stanstead, Wrotham, Kent 14-16/7 The Bull's Head, Boreham Street,Hailsham,E Sussex (Camping weekend at a great country pub) 7/9 George & Dragon, Tudeley, Tonbridge, Kent Look at Folk London's gig guide for later listings |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: The Shambles Date: 22 Jun 00 - 06:15 PM Thank you Mike. I wish I read it earlier, it would have saved me a lot of postings. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: The Shambles Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:36 AM Well I will continue to maintain that it comes from Maori's dancing.
The 'get everyone involved' camp and the 'do it right and keep it pure' brigade, will argue forever, I suspect. Whichever camp you may support, be it in dance, song or music, it is always going to be more important, for others to know, the reasons why you feel the way you do.
Despite the divisions, Morris appears to me to be increasingly more popular. The attraction of Morris being that it is enjoyable. In the past money may have played a part but I suspect the main attraction even then was enjoyment and distraction. Whether the fertility idea had or has much or any basis, it is a lot less important to dancers, than getting together and having fun. The Abbots Bromley being danced to the tune of 'Yellow Submarine' (see the first thread), seems to indicate which side of the argument has most popular support.
Is there not a certain inevitability to this outcome? This Folk song collecting. Good or bad? also touches on and adds to many of the points in these threads. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: The Shambles Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:43 AM Kolk song collecting. Good or bad? |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: The Shambles Date: 23 Jun 00 - 07:45 AM Well you know what I mean. What is Kolk? |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: MikeofNorthumbria Date: 23 Jun 00 - 10:20 AM Gervase and The Shambles - thanks for your comments on my paper. As to the question of why so much writing on this topic is "elegaic" ... well, perhaps it's because so many of us doing the writing are getting into our autumnal years (even if we still think of ourselves as young at heart). Most of the young people I know who are interested in traditional music, dance & song seem too busy playing, singing and dancing to spend much time theorising about it. Which is probably a good thing. However, somebody needs to look back and ponder occasionally. As Santayana (the American philospher, not the Mexican general) once said: people who cannot remember their history are condemned to repeat it. But being a historian by trade, I would say that, wouldn't I? Wassail! |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Jun 00 - 05:30 PM Err - Hermione, did you get a date wrong? Treaty of Leake, 1318. Black death, bubonic plague that swept Europe 1347-1351 and remained endemic in England until 1666. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: The Shambles Date: 23 Jun 00 - 08:17 PM And it was Richard Strauss not Wagner. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Penny S.(elsewhere) Date: 26 Jun 00 - 12:34 PM Jeremy, is that the same Stansted that lies down little tiny lanes between Wrotham and Meopham? With an ancient yew tree in the churchyard? Penny |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Lady Dorothy Wibley-Forbes Date: 26 Jun 00 - 01:56 PM Or Dottie to my chums. And that really rather depends on you, Richard, old boy! Lady Hermione regrets she's unable to lunch today. She did, though, ask me to pass on her good wishes to all her new friends, and to chastise you, Richard, for being such a naughty chap! You said: Now. If you had have read her words on 08-Jun-00 - 09:23 PM, you would have clearly seen, Treaties of Leake and the like, notwithstanding: Indeed, Richard, grave news. Grave news indeed, Richard! We had time, though, to prepare, and by the time the blasted thing hit, somewhere around 1350, anybody who was anybody, had hopped off to more clement climes to ride out the storm, as it were." You haven't read your Treveleyan, Richard, dear boy! Or Macauley, for that matter. You obviously haven't read closely Lady Hermione's words :( D W-F |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: Richard Bridge Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:54 AM Penny S. Yes. THat Stansted. |
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Subject: RE: English Tradition, part two From: GUEST,Jeremy Date: 30 Jun 00 - 05:25 AM Message to Penny You are correct - the Black Horse is the one in Stansted up in the hills between Meopham and Wrotham. Hard to find but well worth it when you do! By the way, the pub is holding a Kent food and ale festival all week and there will be folk music/singing and morris dancing every night Try calling the Landlord, Ian Duncan for an events list |
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