Thought for the Day - June 27,00

Subject: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 09:23 AM

True Life Toronto Adventures:

I am having lunch with a therapist/marriage counsellor -- I am not in therapy or married -- and we are talking about this and that, and I mention that I have seen a lot of movies recently in which the big moment is when one person says "I love you" to another -- this seems to be the threshhold after which everything else is a minor detail (comparatively). Is this true in the young people she sees. She says that this is the big deal: sleeping together, hanging out together, whatever, are nothing. Once you say "I love you" you are just about to start living together. It comes very late. People were always throwing around the "L" word in her day (i.e. my day), but this seems to be the hard line to cross now. I ask her if she can tell when two slightly older people are really serious about getting married. In this culture, it obviously cannot mean when they start sleeping together. She says that in people from about 25 - 50 it is when they reveal their incomes to each other, not their genitals. Money is the big secret. I ask her about any other shifts she has noticed in her years of practice, and she says that the interesting thing is how nothing much really changes -- people still aren't talking to each other, and coming into her office and in the presence of the other person saying things that neither of them can believe the other has always thought. She shrugs her shoulders, and we go on to talk about other things, including her own recent messy divorce. As we are leaving, she turns to me and says: "Oh, yes, one other thing has changed. A lot more women are trying out being lesbian." Oh yes, I say, and do you think it is because they are inherently lesbian, or it is just an interesting option now more obviously available? "Don't know," she says, "I will have to ask my new girlfriend."

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:34 AM

A jaded sociology professor back in my college days once told the class: "Look at the person sitting next to you. Your chances of having a successful marriage are just about as good with that person as they are with someone

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:35 AM

..never mind. Hit the wrong button.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:45 AM

Actually, guest, I kind of liked it that way!

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 12:06 PM

Peter, I almost wish you hadn't shared this with us. I live in a community where certain people have a rabid hatred for homosexuals, mostly on religious grounds. Recent findings re: nature/nurture has at least gotten a toehold for acceptance based on the premise that God "designed" homosexuals for his own reasons.

"an interesting option ...more available" could set the dogs loose again with cries of "Perversion". Experimenting with homosexuality has of course always been an option. And I understand people's fear and revulsion. I just don't agree with it.

I would be interested in knowing how well gay relationships fare compared to straight. Any insights from your therapist friend? Or will we have to see how her own works out?

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:13 PM

Well, I personally know a clutch of lesbians (what is the group name for lesbians?), and as I find virtually everything dealing with sex hilarious, I have always assumed when dealing with gender and all other aspects of sexuality that if there is a God, she/he is an ironist. A friend of mine once referred, at a very straight-laced party I was at, to Mary, the Mother of God as a "bird fancier". This more or less wrecked the evening.

As the Romans said: Inter faeces et urinam nascimur (I leave it in the Latin for the sensitive among us). So it is pretty goofy at the best of times. Thinking about the lesbians I know, some of them just want someone who will not be a man for a while, since men are such jerks; some of them are just loving and it was a woman they arrived at; some of them are guy-like; some are straightout lesbians. I have never found anything that approximated a rule or a science. That my friend took up the torch (see k.d.lang for further explanation) was a total surprise; but given her husband, I would give up on men too. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:14 PM

Well, I personally know a clutch of lesbians (what is the group name for lesbians?), and as I find virtually everything dealing with sex hilarious, I have always assumed when dealing with gender and all other aspects of sexuality that if there is a God, she/he is an ironist. A friend of mine once referred, at a very straight-laced party I was at, to Mary, the Mother of God as a "bird fancier". This more or less wrecked the evening.

As the Romans said: Inter faeces et urinam nascimur (I leave it in the Latin for the sensitive among us). So it is pretty goofy at the best of times. Thinking about the lesbians I know, some of them just want someone who will not be a man for a while, since men are such jerks; some of them are just loving and it was a woman they arrived at; some of them are guy-like; some are straightout lesbians. I have never found anything that approximated a rule or a science. That my friend took up the torch (see k.d.lang for further explanation) was a total surprise; but given her husband, I would give up on men too. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:28 PM

"Bird fancier"? Another thought for another day?

"A clutch of Lesbians"? Old hens? You live dangerously.

My question was serious. Almost all of the gay men I know have been monogamous for years - some for 30 -40 years. Their relationships seem stronger than most marriages I know. The atmosphere in this country in the 50s and 60s could explain it. The air of secrecy made it difficult to find multiple (acceptable) partners. And fear of discovery had to play a part. But some couples are men in their 30s who have been together since high school. AIDS I'm sure enters into the picture. Sorry for the ramble.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:33 PM

There was a great cartoon I saw a few days ago, panel one of which had some guy saying to a gay couple: "You people live totally disgusting lifestyles, with no respect for traditional social institutions." The gays reply; "We'd like to get married." And the guy replies: "That is totally disgusting." I laughed.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 02:59 PM

Very funny and very sad. SS

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: JenEllen
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:18 PM

The 'L' line is a lot harder line to cross than most people think. Whatever it is, secrecy, inadequacy, the way you were brought up, it's a lot to tackle, and a lot to pin on just one person as being 'the one'.

What is amazing to me, and I never really thought about it before, (thanks Peter) is the length and type of relationships that the same-sex couple I know have. I'm not sure if they are just better at dealing with interpersonal relationships, or they just have fewer problems, but when my gay and lesbian friends found someone they could call 'partner', the petty things about relationships seemed to have ceased to be important.

The scenarios are endless, and I wish there was a tangible key to it all.

~Elle

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 06:43 PM

An intimate relationship that is loving & supportive is all that really matters in the end.
Elle, I have the same thoughts about intimate relationships. That they are all so different, how can we really compare them.
Intimate relationships are just that, intimate. Anyone outside the relationship will not really know the true relationship that is going on between two people.
What is most important is a nonjudgmental acceptance of a person's choice.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:04 PM

Hmmm....I'll have to ask my gyrlfriends what they think of the "clutch" thing, Peter!**BG**

This is a very close and tough subject for me. Sinsull made some very good points. We have always had many gay and lesbian friends and I can say, of the couple we know, once they got over the bullshit society would have them believe of themselves, i.e. self-hatred, abomination, etc., they have formed very honest and long-lasting relationships. Those who have supportive friends and/or family also fare better.

As for AIDS, clear back in 1987, the Utne Reader had a cover story about the new monogamy among heterosexuals because of AIDS. Straights were staying together, happy or unhappy because of the fear.

Personally, as a uni-sexual*BG*, it is whoever I love, no matter their gender. I do think it is inherent, as Sinsull mentioned, but I also happen to believe being uni-sexual, or bi-sexual if you prefer, is inherent. I think as women get older, they tend to look at things differently, too. I have several friends in their 50's who've agreed with me, that if there is a next person for them, it will most likely be a girlfriend, maybe not even sexual in nature, but for a true and loving relationship. That old patriarchal societal drive to get a man and procreate etc. is over and done with, by and large, and women are freer in their choices of who to live with and love. Of course, I am speaking of certain generations. From what I've seen with my daughters and my son, their generations are not under those types of constraints as much as we were.

katstickingherneckout

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:17 PM

that was supposed to read, "of the couples we know"

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: Mbo
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 07:41 PM

I'm sorry to hear that I as a male cannot create a true and loving relationship for a woman. I don't have anything against anybody here, love who you want, I say, but when we are turned away or rebuked because we are no longer desired for procreation services seems a little harsh. There is such a thing as love without lust. Not all of us have our minds in our shorts. And we are good for than just making babies...we are good for the long haul too.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: JenEllen
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:19 PM

Mbo;

I hate to speak for anyone else here, but for myself, procreation isn't terribly high on the list when engaging in friendships. Marriage should be the ultimate friendship. You should be able to expect from a partner the same things you would expect from a friend, male OR female; love, trust, compassion, and sharing a good laugh. All of those things, provided by a man OR a woman, are precious. The children grow up, and god-willing, leave the house, then who are you stuck with? If you married her just for her child-bearing hips, you'll be S.O.L.. I look at it like "If this is the person you are, and that person makes you happy, bless you both."

~Elle

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: Mbo
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:33 PM

That's not what I'm saying AT ALL. Read it again.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: JenEllen
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 10:52 PM

Mbo;
I'm not doubting YOUR capacity to love anyone. What I'm saying, is that if you came to me and said you'd found the love of your life, and his name was Fred, that I'd be hard pressed to find fault with it. A lot of heterosexual couples don't work out because they lack the basic tenets of respect for each other. Regardless of what sex your soul mate happens to be inhabiting, there's room in love for everyone.
~Elle

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: flattop
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:13 PM

What's wrong with Fred's hips?

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: Mbo
Date: 27 Jun 00 - 11:32 PM

ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE!! BUM BA BADDA BUM!
ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE!! BUM BA BADDA BUM!
ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE, LOVE!!!
LOVE IS ALL YOU NEED!!!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: flattop
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:06 AM

And Fred!

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: JenEllen
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 01:52 AM

LOL...jeez flattop!

Fred's hips are FABULOUS! And believe me, I'm a woman that looks!

And you are right Mbo, sing away, 'cuz love is all we need...

~Elle

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 02:52 AM

You know, I'm a man who's exclusively attracted to women...but DAMN, there is something about Fred's hips! I see what you're talking about Jen! He got him some fine hips!

Seriously, why is it that the hetero/homosexual line seems so black and white among men, but for women it's more of a gray area? It seems that women are more likely to dabble in same-sex relationships, while for men it's a permanent track. Or is this all due to the fact that Playboy and Penthouse have made lovemaking between two women appealing to men, and so there's less of a taboo??

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: Sailor Dan
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 05:35 AM

LONESOME E.J. you have been in the backwoods of the rockies to long. Unless Fred is short for Fredericka or Freda.

I dont agree with same sex relationships, to me it is unnatural. But if thats your schtick, have at it. Just don't push your beliefs on me. They are yours keep them. But I have found out that in a relationship it has to be give and take, there has to be love, respect, tolerance and HONESTY. One of the best ways in keeping a relationship going is to be a true friend to your significant other. Allow them to be themselves and they have to allow you to be yourself. You have to big enough to overlook some of the things that occur and search beyond the immediate happening for a reason. STop and think before you react. Temper your actions on the side of caution when it comes to the other person. If you stop and think and question why things were said usually a plausible reason can be found. Ad when all else fails, Saying your sorry never hurts either.

Dan

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: Mbo
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 07:59 AM

I may not like some things you do
But they're all a part of you
And I understand

I don't mind the cold when I have a fire to warm me
I don't mind the rain 'cause it make the flowers grow
I can take the bad times when you wrap your love around me
I don't mind the thorns when you're the rose

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day - June 27,00
From: flattop
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 10:29 PM

Be careful what you're labeling unnatural, Dan, or, before you know it, people will be accusing sailors of being heterosexual.