Oak, Ash & Thorn Opening for the Coppers(2000)

Subject: Opening for the Coppers
From: Dave Swan
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 03:50 PM

Oak, Ash & Thorn (my little band of idiots) had the honor of opening for the Copper family last Sunday, and I'm still high.

It's pretty common to say that a song was learned from the singing of (fill in the blank), meaning I took this song off his record. When a Copper says I learned this from the singiing of someone, that someone was named Copper too, and the song learned at his knee.

The contribution of the Copper family as collectors and custodians of traditional song can't be overstated.

Bob, John, Jill, and her husband John Dudley spilled out of the van at the Freight and Salvage in Berkeley and it was very much like meeting a group of Mudcatters. Old friends we just hadn't bumped into yet.

The sound check quickly concluded, we repaired to the green room at the Freight, opened the ice chest and got down to business. Drinking, laughing, and telling stories. Highlights: A long discussion about real ale, its handlng and consumption; Bob "I'm a blues freak" Copper singing the blues and playing air guitar for Pam as he discussed the affection he's had for the blues since 1936; improvising lyrics to Dido, Bendigo; singing in the green room after the show until we were thrown out; reading from the manuscript of Brasser Copper, a nineteenth century volume with which they travel!

Onstage the Coppers are as warm, musical, funny and informative as one wants them to be. That sound, coming from those four people wraps itself around the listener and doesn't let go. I won't surrender my Copper family recordings, but there is no substitute for feeling those voices resonate in the same room.

We were asked onstage to join them for the evening's final number. I don't think it's ever going to get better for me than singing Thousands or More onstage with the with the Coppers at the Freight and Salvage, with Bob reaching around to hug, pat, and squeeze each of us as we sang.

Bob's grandchildren, now in their 20's and 30's, are learning the songs and singing in England. The legacy of this dear, talented family is safe for another generation.

The Coppers are the founders of the feast and I am honored to have spent time with them.

Dave

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Peter T.
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 03:59 PM

Boy, baseball has sure changed since the last time I was in a stadium. When did Oakland become the Coppers? Or is that another gig? (joke, joke)
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Dave Swan
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 04:14 PM

That gig, you silly Canadian person, is yet to come. Don't think I be invited to drink and sing in the dug-out, but you never know.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: p.j.
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 04:25 PM

I believe his stage name is "Some Canadian Guy", at least in Shakespearian circles...

At the Coppers gig there were many fans of Oak Ash & Thorn who came on their recommendation to see the family where it all started. In the Missing The Point category, one of them was overheard saying about the Coppers... "Wow, they do a lot of Oak Ash & Thorn songs!" :o)

It was a grand night. What the Coppers gave us in rich tradition and warmth, Oak Ash & Thorn gives us in talented musicianship, humor and beautiful preservation of this music for new audiences. Good folks, all.

PJ

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: WyoWoman
Date: 04 Jul 00 - 04:49 PM

This is so great! Wish I could have been there, especiall since I know the OA&T part of the program now. (Lessee, El Swanno was the thorny one, right?)

PJ, that's such a funny story. But at least now the fans have been exposed to the source.

How wonderful to have perfect moments, and to be aware that they are when we're in the thick of them. Nothing to do but savor and say grace.

Full-contact, industrial-strength, body-slam hugs to all y'all. I'm getting a contact high...

ww

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 04:11 AM

A special night it was. It was my first time at a coppers concert. On stage, there was a table. The coppers were very warmly and movingly introduced by Dave of O.A. and T., and then they came out and sat around the table. It gave the venue an "at home" atmosphere, as they looked relaxed as they told anecdotes, family history, and background information on the songs. Two of the more humourous moments: Late in the evening one of the Coppers said, "Here's another song from the Oak, Ash, and Thorn repertoire." (big audience laughter) Earlier, they told of their meeting with and affection towards Utah Phillips. "We were telling him about all the places we were going to on our tour - we're going here, then there, the next day there, etc. Utah then answered 'If you sing like that you've got to travel!' I always carry a bus ticket in MY pocket!'" Oak, Ash and Thorn started the evening off with their own brand of warmth, humor, and fine singing. They are also keepers of the flame of English folksong - and of the old Rice Krispies commercial (which they sang at their own concert at the Freight a few weeks earlier).

chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 04:22 AM

Thanks, Dave: very nice report.

I've put a link to this thread on the official unofficial Coppers page

here.

Garry

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 08:38 AM

Dave, I must admit that my knowledge of the Coppers is limited to what an old friend in Melbourne has told me, plus a published book of his of their songs. Can you please tell us some more about what they have in print? At the time I looked at my mate's book it seemed there were quite a few songs not in the DT. Maybe it was songs for the four seasons - I'm not sure? Regards, John

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: JedMarum
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 09:01 AM

Dave - it sounds like one of those rare treats life throws you once in a while. I wish I could have been there!

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: DebC
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 09:12 AM

Is this the same Oak, Ash and Thorn that appeared in redding Calif in the early 80's??? I thought that group was no more. I purchased an LP and a songbook at that concert! What a great night!!!

And I am glad that the Coppers got back to California. I had the pure joy of spending a week in Peacehaven walking the Downs with Bob and hearing his stories. What a memorable experience.

I am so glad that Oak, Ash and Thorn are still or back together again. What a wonderful group!

Cheers, Debra

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 09:23 AM

I am still not clear on the concept. Is that Oak, Ash, and Thorn as in Evers to Tinker to Chance? Oak shortstop, Ash second base, Thorn on first (Who's on first?).

yours, Peter T.
P.S. Sounds like what my mother calls a "life entrancing experience".

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 09:42 AM

I don't know, Swanno, but that sounds like it may have been even more fun than annoying oxen, although it must have been close.

I had the pleasure of Dave and PJ's company in my home for a week. Dave and PJ sang a number of their favorites from this wonderful style of music. Dave also left me a CD of their music. DEBC, this is indeed the same band. El Swanno has been with them for 20 years and the band has been together about 25. I greatly enjoy their style of music, and there are a number of songs on their CD that I intend to pinch for our show. Marvellous stuff.

Great stuff, buddy. I am proud of ya, and wish I could have been there.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Willie-O
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 10:17 AM

That sounds like a great night out...Pam, I gather from your comments, considering your personal modesty, that you are not a member of Oak Ash & Thorn--why on earth not I might pointedly ask yr partner. (But I think I know).

Anyway, shouldn't that be Oak & Ash & Bitter Thorn?

Hope we meet again under equally unlikely circumstances or more so...

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Willie-O
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 10:21 AM

Pointedly, get it? A thorny situation indeed.

I never notice these groaners until after I make them...

Sorry. (But I'm not bitter.)

W-O

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Dave Swan
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 10:12 PM

Thanks to everyone for the kind words and for understanding the experience.

John in Brisbane, Gaz kindly included a blue clilcky above which takes to to a site with answers about the Copper's material.

DebC, Thanks for the kind words. That was indeed us in Redding, although that us didn't include me. I was unable to make that trip. You would have seen Doug, Dale & Mitchell. Those were the days we were a four man trio. Therebye hangs a very long tale.

Cheers, E.S.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 10:21 PM

'Go ahead.....We're all bored stiff.....Tell it El Swanno'..............Said Spaw, kicking back and propping his feet up and ripping a huge fart in preparation.

Okay go for it...............bbBBRRRRAAAWWWWWWNNNNNNFFFFFF........ ahhhhh.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 10:30 PM

Thanks Dave, I'll have another look at the printed source. Regards, John

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Dave Swan
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 10:31 PM

Nahh 'spaw, I'll tell everybody else, but none for you. You could have heard it in person, in Toronto, but nooooooo. You couldn't come to the board meeting or see your buddies. My therapist says it's going to be a very long time 'til I'm over this.

E.S.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Jul 00 - 10:42 PM

yeah,yeah,yeah.........I can see I'm in for a hard ass time over this........

So let me get this right..........The other night you opened for some police act and now you're about to sing for a ballgame. I guess this is some kind of metaphor thing for me to bite the bullet and play ball next time huh? Uh-huh.........Well, my best to Pam anyway.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 01:01 AM

Catspaw-

Dave Swan is one of those people who makes deals with coppers. You know the type.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 01:04 AM

Yeah, that's true.....And I know he likes to play with his big hose too.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 01:39 AM

Now, there's an opening act.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 03:00 AM

I always thought an Opening for the Coppers ws "'Ello, 'ello, 'ello. What's all this then?" Seriously, I sang on the same stage as the Coppers a few years ago at the Folk Alliance in Memphis. Of course, their concert had finished hours before, and the hall was closed, but I snuck in and sang a song anyway. ALl the best, Seamus

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 07:16 AM

Great description of your experience Dave. I am so happy it was such a success with the Coppers.

Willie-O, I figure Pam is not part of Oak Ash & Thorn band because she is completely booked with solo performances.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: p.j.
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 11:31 AM

....and everyone in the audience that night turned out to be Copper clappers...or doesn't anybody remember that Dragnet routine?

Thanks for the asking Willie-O and for a great dodge, Bonnie, but the truth is that I don't sing with Oak Ash & Thorn 'cause they have this stupid rule about everybody in the group having talent. When I open my mouth it tends to frighten small children and farm animals. They even flatulate in perfect harmony while rehearsing. 'S right disgoostin', 'tis.

PJ

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Willie-O
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 11:42 AM

That won't do Pam! Won't do at all! I've heard you sing and it did kind of frighten me, but not in the way you imply.

I have no idea now what I meant when I said "I think I know". I'm back now to my normal condition: clueless.

But happy.

W-O

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: p.j.
Date: 06 Jul 00 - 06:51 PM

Reminds me of the old quote "I know you believe you understand what you think I said but you may not realize that when you heard what you thought I said it was not at all what I meant when I thought it."

Clueless 'n happy, way to be, bud. We'll make you an honorary blonde. Honest, it's kinda peaceful in here...

Peej

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:51 AM

Pj, you must be kidding. A little less modesty please. After your mouth music demo, the menfolk all had to leave the patio for about two minutes just to calm down and become presentable again.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 09:46 AM

Well that explains it Peter. I was wondering where all the menfolk went. I couldn't get into either of the bathrooms and both showers were running.
Pam I think it is mighty time you go into the bathroom yourself and have a good look at the gifted lady of talent who stands before the mirror.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:30 AM

Well, if you are fishing for compliments here you are going to get a load of them. I sat and listened to Peej and El Swanno around my kitchen table, and I must tell you, fellow mudcatteers, you only saw the tip of the iceberg. These two harmonize wonderfully together and Peej has a marvellous voice. I don't know where the hell the idea that she doesn't sing well came from. She is wonderful. And an additional talent is that she climbs over fallen trees in a skirt!!!!!!..............that'll have 'em wondering, eh Peej???????.......LOL

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:36 AM

...well, drooling perhaps.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 11:55 AM

I better explain before El Swanno wonders what the hell that is all about. During the day while Swannee was annoying teams of oxen, I took Peej and the wee Ciara in the Jeep and showed her around some of my special places in the State Game area I live in. Included in this was the Duffy graveyard which is a small family plot along side a rode in the middle of the woods. It seems completely out of place, but they were Catholic and hence buried apart from the Protestant graveyard. The father, mother and two daughters all died less than 15 years apart. Then I took her to my hill where I go and play to commemorate my friends who have finished this part of the mortal journey. It is also where I proposed to my wife and then we got married up there. It is a very tall hill that looks out over Gun Lake and this big old forest. Quite beautiful and a bit of a hike through the woods. When we went over to another site, there was a big fallen tree over the path and Peej had a skirt on. While I was standing there wondering, Peej told me to get my big arse moving and was I an eejit enough to figure that she couldn't climb a tree. Of course the wee Ciara, who is completely enamored of PJ, pipes in with a "yeah, Da" and off we went.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: p.j.
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 02:39 PM

Testosterone abounds. This great hulking gentleman tried to treat me like a girl! Must've figured I'd never been hiking before (forgetting what I do for a living). In any event, Ciara and I demonstrated that legs work the same way whether or not they are denim-clad. I told Mick if he saw anything he didn't recognize, feel free to ask questions.

We then had the distinct pleasure of watching Himself leap tall pine trees with a single bound! What is this gene in guys that makes 'em jump over trees? I suspect it's the same one that requires them to reach up and smack the cloth awning that overhangs the sidewalk as they go down the street. At any rate, I'm here to tell you, whether it's scaling fallen forest logs or dancing in the rhododendrons, *this Mick can MOVE*! Very impressive.

I now have a pretty green rock in my fireplace, collected from the famous hill where he and the lovely MaryLou first pitched woo. Next time he posts about going there to be alone and play his whistle, I'll look at it and smile.

By the way, Peter-- you, Mick, Bonnie and Willie-Oh-My are definately on my list of favorite cures for insecurity. Didn't hurt any that Duckboots kept us well supplied with beer all the afternoon.....the more you drink the better I get!

Honest ta gooones, though, it's been amazing to have a musical influence like Dave in the house. He got me into traditional music, and I can't believe I'm lucky enough to sing with that voice anytime I want. We're off today to go hear Oak Ash & Thorn do the National Anthem at the Oakland Coliseum, and I'm very excited! Does anybody get the televised game with the Diamondbacks tonight?

PeeJay

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 03:09 PM

Thought I had a way of getting this game, but I don't (since he's still out of town). And Peej, I don't know why you should ever feel insecure about the obvious talent you have and the years spent in developing it. We're just glad you moved a bit of it over here to the folkie place.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Jul 00 - 08:56 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 01:13 AM

Man, I love this thread. I'm living vicariously through you folks!

Our e-mail has been down. Just got your epistles. I'll get back to you when I return from Mariposa.

Luv

Rick

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 08:59 AM

Today!!! The guys are playing today??????? Time for a new Thread!
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 05:39 PM

So how'd it go, guys? Or has the fat lady done her thing, yet? Sheesh, I read PJ said she stood beside Joe freakin' Gargeola(sp) during their sound check!!

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 05:46 PM

Actually gang, El Swanno DID start a thread announcing this awhile back and I refreshed it the other day. Its called "Singin' in the Big Leagues" and I'll go refresh it again for you now.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 07:55 PM

Thanks for the wonderfully evocative reports. I'm delighted to hear that these guys are still alive and kicking.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 09:07 PM

Swanno's singing for a national audience...Rick's off to Mariposa which is back in Orillia after 36 years of exile, and Lightfoot opens for Fielding I guess.

Me I just hope I still have my little 3-table cafe gig next week, because...a gig's a gig's a gig!

By the way PJ & Mick and any other serious outdoors people (Bonnie)--we should get together for some wilderness adventure sometime...this old forestry tech doesn't like to miss a good vertical scramble through the deep woods.

But I don't travel light often enough these days...
too many damn stringy things
Willie-O

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Jul 00 - 11:13 PM

Yeah, Willie. I still get to the woods but as my girth shows, it is not near enough. But I would love to do a Mudcat Hike, Camp and Sing. Wouldn't that be grand. Find a wilderness area, get the site and invite as many 'Catters as possible. For those of us in our region, Pennsylvania might not be bad. That is within an 8 hour drive for a lot of 'catters.

BTW, Mr. -O, what's the chances of you driving about 1 1/2 hrs. of Washington DC for the FSGW Getaway in October. I garawntee good pickin', grinnin' and singin'.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: GUEST,Marymac, sans cookie
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 12:50 AM

A PA gathering sounds good to me, (especially since that's where I live!), Mick. Would the hiking part be mandatory, as in a site inaccessible except on foot; or optional, as in day hikes for all those who can and want to? It can be good to have somebody back at the cabin or campsite fixing the stew!

Marymac, who, what with a bad back and a bum knee, wouldn't go for much of a hike, but enjoys the outdoors nonetheless!

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: p.j.
Date: 09 Jul 00 - 06:00 PM

Willie-Oh-Really! Let's go! If you'll figure out a way to get to FSGW to meet Mick 'n the gang in October, I will too. Bet they've got a fallen log or two we could scramble over...forestry tech, huh? Does that mean you know which leaves should never be substituted for Charmin?

Tell me more about the 3-table gig. I found it on the What's On post, but we want details, man.

PJ

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: p.j.
Date: 10 Jul 00 - 05:40 PM

I got the sweetest personal message this morning from someone who's been lurking around reading this thread-- If you're reading this, dearie, please come on and post... this is a wonderful, warm group of folks who would love to have you in the community of 'Catters.

Love PJ

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 04:54 PM

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Jul 00 - 07:44 PM

Peej, I am counting on you being there. You are going to love this gathering. These Greater DC folkies really get it right. I canna wait to see them all again. But I ain't doing the friggin' play again. Well, maybe I will.........LOL.

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: GUEST,Upstreeter
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 04:21 AM

PJ, just lurkin', lookin' and listenin'...nice to know there's support for the music out there. We didn't get to write on the wall...so we'll have to come back! J.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 10:57 AM

Geez, this thread is one I've been neglecting--turns out to be important. Really doing stuff huh?

1. What is FSGW? (I know what DC is, but...) May not be completely impossible, but its a long haul.
2. My gig at the Yellow Canoe Cafe is on for this Fri, and Ceitagh & 'rents may show, and my gang is coming. Its a cool little place in an attractive, very old by east Ontario standards (1790) Rideau Canal town about an hour from my home, and I have a lot of friends there.
3. Anybody up for some real hardscrabble, I've got a place (the old commune, still going strong, there's a decent campsite and I have a cabin there) up near Algonquin park.
4. What in the hell is Charmin? (My early-80's forestry education concentrated on industrially significant species, with just a glance at forest plant species as site indicators, most of which I've forgotten.) Or is that a joke or sumpin?

W-O

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: p.j.
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 12:57 PM

Upstreeter!! So glad to see you here... lurkers gotta get out of the closet once in a while for some fresh air! I like the new link on your website, all it's missing is YOUR account of the night-- I've heard everybody else's already. :o)

Mick, I'm making all the arrangements I can now for FSGW in October. Normally I go to some stuffy conferences for work during that month, but I'd rather be making music with youz guyz. Keep working on Willie-O, sounds like he's comin' around....

Villie-Oy, there's an FSGW thread awhile back, I'd make you a blue clicky, but my eyes glaze over when I try to read the instructions. It sounds like quite a romp, and I'm going to do my best to get there. The Yellow Canoe sounds like a great place, will there be pictures? And where is Algonquin park relative to FSGW, or is that what you meant? Finally pardon my red-face, I forgot that Charmin wouldn't be a household word in the exotic and far-away land of Canada. It's a kind of, um, *bath tissue* which is known for being especially soft and kind to your bits and pieces, unlike general forestry materials found while wilderness camping. It was a small joke. (maybe not.)

PJ

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 01:01 PM

Ohmagawd, I love the Coppers. I have never got to see them in person, but Bob Copper was kind enough to write back to me when I wrote him with a question about a song.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 02:25 PM

Got a lake, Willie-O?
pj, Algonquin Park is about 4 hours north of Toronto. Which, if you go around the earth south to north and then north to south and then south to north again shaves about 4 hours off the trip to FSGW.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Willie-O
Date: 12 Jul 00 - 02:26 PM

PJ. Charmin sounds like a very useful leaf, but not one we find around hereabouts.

Algonquin Park is the largest provincial park in Ontario, its about 3 hours north of Toronto, and about the same distance from where I am. 2700 square miles, very busy along the highway 60 corridor, but the interior has lots of good canoeing. Bonnie's doing a lot of paddling there this summer, she mentioned. I don't get there often. It ain't near FSGW I guess--I was just brainstorming accessible wilderness areas that I think are "central".

W-O is me.

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 05:15 AM

Jon Dudley of the Copper Family has now provided his own account of the evening referred to at the top of this thread, and I've put it hereabouts. Cheers, Garry Gillard

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Dave Swan
Date: 06 Aug 00 - 12:08 PM

Gaz,

Thanks for posting this link. I didn't know about Jon's account of the evening, it's nice to know he remembers it fondly as well. Thanks again Garry.

Cheers,

Dave

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 12:17 AM

Where did it go?

Dave, here I was all along thinking that the Copper's were closing for you.

Give my best to Pam & LOL to you both.

Barry

Subject: RE: Opening for the Coppers
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 03:33 AM

Hi, Barry - Garry's Copper site has been absorbed by http://www.thecopperfamily.com/ - but I didn't find the California page. I wonder if it might show up on the Wayback Machine or some other Web archive.
Garry's Website is now http://garrygillard.net - but he dropped his Copper Family coverage.
-Joe-