Women's Issues in Folk Performing?

Subject: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 09:23 AM

I have been reading about the women's jazz bands in the 2nd World War (a book called "Swing Shift" is making the rounds), that represented a brief moment when women were allowed to play in bands and make a living, which ended when the guys came back home. Interesting discussions about what they had to wear (either frillies or sex come ons), about what instruments were considered appropriate, and the usual sexist crap. There is also some discussion about the few women who persevered playing trumpet, or whatever, after the war.

It struck me reading this that I have always assumed that folk music was at least slightly more egalitarian, with all the Joans, and Jonis, and Maybelle Carter, and so on (hey, I know a lady banjo player) -- I just assumed people played whatever they wanted to play -- but like all this kind of assumption, I bet it is quite wrong. Since I don't know anything about the performing circuit, I was wondering if people had any thoughts or insights into existing pressures on women, exclusions, assumptions about what they could or could not play? I mean beyond the usual cliquiness. For instance, I was trying to think of a band which had mixed personnel -- I thought of the Rankin Family, and Alison Krauss and Union Station -- so it must happen. Maybe more than it used to? Is gender segregation usual? What happens in Celtic music? (As you can see I am speaking as a pure consumer of music, not as having any experience of the other side)

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 09:33 AM

Here's another book for you Peter.......Not perfect, but really a good read. Very fine info on the history of women in Country Music dating back to the mountains.

Finding Her Voice by Mary Bulwhack and Robert Oermann

Didja' know that some places women were not allowed to play anything in public and often hid their ability?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 09:39 AM

The majority of my favourite singer/songwriters are women, and have been ever since I can remember. I've noticed that women, when they do write, are better songwriters. They have a much more subtle touch, and they express themselves on a greater variety of human themes. They are also generally more articulate.

Of course, you will always find individual exceptions to this sort of thing.

There has been a phenomenal growth in excellent female performers in the last 15 years. I love listening to Mary Chapin Carpenter (unbelievable songwriter!), Shawn Colvin, Tanita Tikaram, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Eileen McGann, Kathryn Wheatley, Tish Hinojosa, Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell, Erin Benjamin (whom I just found out about recently), Jann Arden, my friend Jennifer Claveau, Sinead O'Connor, and on and on and on. Brava!!!

The one male performer I listen to with aboslute appreciation is Bob Dylan. Way to go, Bob! Bravo!!!

As for women's issues...

Well, women's issues are people's issues. Freedom is freedom, and that's all there is to it. We all need liberation and consideration.

I don't consider women as a separate group. 'Nuff said.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 09:40 AM

Mattera fact, yes, Spaw. I knew that.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 09:43 AM

Morning, CP, yes, I assumed that must have been the case -- it just occurs to me that the designation "family" must have been a significant reason for mixed playing, which wouldn't have been easily accommodated otherwise (e.g.,the Carter Family). Except for girl singers with a band. Anyway, I am not really interested in the history -- I mean I am, but I am interested in this thread in current experiences or concerns.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 09:43 AM

Oops, didn't mean to sound testy. My health's a BLEEP!ing mess, which seems to have resulted in short posts.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 09:47 AM

Hope the health improves Crow, but I didn't see anything wrong with your first post!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Burke
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 09:48 AM

I heard a talk that mentioned the Coon Creek Girls as a women's group that had to put on the fake hillbilly outfits to reach an audience.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 09:52 AM

Fake hillbilly outfits? Ooooo...tacky, tacky!

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: sophocleese
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 05:03 PM

Just a flying Mudcat visit before I head out to another festival..

Well Lilith Fair was started partly to challenge an assumption that audiences would be bored by watching all female acts followed by all female acts when they aren't bored, apparently, by all male acts following after all male acts. I think it demonstrated that you could have women singing and playing all night and not be bored.

Sometimes I think that female singers are supposed to be better singers than their male counterparts but I don't have any concrete evidence to back this notion up. Part of the appeal of singers such as Alanis Morrisette is that they are deliberately not pleasant-sounding.

I'm trying to remember who was playing at the Milrace festival last weekend and I can only recall one band with mixed genders and they had a husband and wife couple in it. Often its impractical to take the kids on the road so somebody has to stay home with them and maybe stay-at-home spouses feel happier about long road trips when they know the band is all one gender.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 05:13 PM

Hmmm. Are there many women studio musicians? yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 05:28 PM

I can't talk about pressures on female musicians but I do know this. I have been booking at coffeehouses for the last four years at least. It is dead easy to find male singer/songwriters. If that's all I wanted I could book a whole year in my sleep. But females are harder to find. And I want to feature a mix of talent and musical styles.

Mind you, I am talking locals only. It isn't that I don't want to book from away but we don't pay enough to attract anyone to travel any distance. Plus our main (Maine) interest is to feature locals and highlight local talent.

Still, I cannot find anywhere near as many females as males. Why is this? There are plenty of you females here at the Mudcat. Is it just a dearth of female talent/interest in this geographic area?

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 06:23 PM

The Coon Creek Girls were pushed to wear calico and country clothes,leader Lily May Ledford implies in one of the monologues on "Gems: Lily May Ledford" (subject of another thread). That wasn't necessarily a gender thing, though. Josiah Combs, a song collector and dulcimer player who came out of southeastern Kentucky in the post WWI years, cut short his performing career because promoters wanted him to wear clodhopper shoes, funny hat, etc. Combs had earned a degree at the Sorbonne and wouldn't put up with that foolishness. He settled into a long career as a professor of foreign languages.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 06:36 PM

HEy, it's only in 1968 that the IRS in the UK stopped recruiting boys almost exclusively for career jobs, and automatically "fired" women when they got married - they were given a one off payment for the wedding and that was it. No pension. The men got pushed further and further up the career ladder simply because they were kept on, and promoted according to length of service, rather than ability. There are women working now who are STILL trying to buy back their pension rights after being paid off in the '60's when they got married, but came back to work.

LTS

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 06:47 PM

Good thread Peter.

My mother had her own big band in the late 30s and through much of the war years. It was called "Dottie and The Debs" (ugh...but those were different times) and featured Ma on accordion and frilly sequinned gowns.

I don't know much about the band personally, because I was too stupid to ask her questions about it and neither she or my Dad talked much about their musical careers (before becoming a pharmacist, he was a jazz clarinetist).

I've got lots of old posters and promo sheets and a few newspaper clippings, so I know they were pretty popular. She even had a radio show on CKEY. I DID once ask if she'd ever recorded and she reminded me of the recording ban ordered by the union. By the way it was bandleader Percy Faith who "broke the faith" and recorded anyway.

I would love to have the opportunity to ask her about discrimination in those days, but my guess is that it would have been worse for the gals in her band, since she being an "accordion chick" which was a popular novelty act , probably got lots of work. Somehow I doubt that the women in her band were taken very seriously by the male jazzers of the time. But I might be wrong.

Gotta run. Peter T's coming for his lesson!

Rick

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Margaret V
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 12:15 AM

Peter T, I've never tried to hire studio musicians so I don't know how difficult it is to find women studio musicians. But I'll confess to feeling slightly rancorous -- no, that's too strong a word for the feeling; more like miffed -- when I go to read the credits on an album by some great woman and every musician/producer/engineer is a guy. I try to imagine myself in the position of having to put together an ensemble for a recording, and I feel like I'd want to seek out other women musicians as part of the balance. The other day I was reading the liner notes to the Island anthology of Marianne Faithfull's works, and they set her up as this poster-child for feminism, depicting her as having been oppressed by gender expectations in the late '60s, which I don't doubt for a second. But what's disturbing is that, with the exception of some orchestrated pieces that include a few women in the orchestra, all other musicians are men; the credits don't look much different from how they would have looked three decades ago. The notes say "When she began her career as a seventeen-year-old shaped by a series of producers, managers, and lovers, Faithfull was overwhelmed by the visions those men forced upon her. Her career on Island records has been a process of self-assertion. . ." but meanwhile, back in the 1990s, her producer is Angelo Badalamenti, manager is a guy, you get the idea. I suppose the difference is that in the '60s she didn't have as much choice, and now she has a choice about the people she wants to work with. Gee, I didn't mean to pick on Marianne Faithfull or anybody, really; it's just something I notice time and again. And yikes, we were supposed to be talking about FOLK music here; sorry!

Closer to my own reality, I'm typically the only woman playing at the local Irish session. I've never experienced any difficulties or overt inequities; doesn't seem to matter to anyone if I play the fiddle or the guitar. I have noticed , though, that when guitar-playing fellows show up to a session without an instrument, and start jonesing to play when they see everyone having fun, they'll always ask the only female -- me -- if they can borrow my guitar and sit in for a song or two. Of course, I just might seem to have a friendlier, more approachable demeanor than the other guitar players, and that's why the choose me, but in any case it's a pattern. There are so many variables, and I've always believed you just deal with gender inequity as and if it arises; I find no more unappealing character trait than that of having a chip on one's shoulder.

Margaret

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 07:55 AM

Margaret, I think it goes deeper than that. It may be an assertion of dominence! It comes from the evolutionary processes we are trying to overcome in our civilized society. Males dominate and females submit. Remember it has not been very long since we started to realize that is the wrong attitude. We have millions of years of evolution fighting against a few decades of human rights.

So, as I see it, when they ask for your guitar, the fore part of their thinking is just that they want to borrow a guitar. Deeper down, without thinking about it, it just seems right to take one from a woman.

That is the thing we have to fight. It is the non-thinking decisions we all have to be aware of and try to avoid. I am just as guilty as most of us. It takes constant vigilance. Not easy but necessary.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: flattop
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 09:08 AM

I'm glad that you don't have a chip truck on your shoulder, Margaret. I found an old tape of Marianne Faithfull last night when I was recording samples of Canadian singers for a foreign mudFriend. I was a little embarassed at how few female Canadian singers I had in my collection.

This morning I shoved Marianne into the tape deck before looking for a thread or two to read. Unfortunately the tape was sticking. She sounded shakier then she sounded when she was shooting heroin so I replaced her with a tape of bunch of guys jamming at Minnie's house in Cape Breton. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that my tapes had such political significance until I read this thread.

My interest in Marianne Faithfull was renewed recently when I saw a documentary on her life. The part of the documentary that really stands out in my mind was when a police dope raid on the Stones mansion caught Stones members trying to stick a Mars bar up Marianne's butt. The program cut to Keith Richards saying with a grin, 'That story was completely fabricated by journalists. We were out of Mars bars.' This didn't renew my interest in her music as much as her pain, sadness, honesty and the beauty in her songs.

I'm surprised, Margaret, that you stated your feelings so clearly after Little Hawk told you that there are no women's issues, only human issues. Now that we have complete worldwide equality of the sexes and now that Little Hawk and the rest of us boys can share equally in the joys of breastfeeding and in the pain of childbirth with all the women in the world, why would women complain? You wouldn't be fighting millions of years of evolution that has left men blindsided to the possibility that women can sing beautifully all night long?

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 11:46 AM

Hey guys, I didn't say that we have complete worldwide equality of the sexes...not on your nelly!!! (to quote the infamous Frank Burns) There is still horrendous suppression of women, and I have struggled against it all my life...as a man. I am delighted that much progress has been made, and that women are expressing themselves more in all arenas of life.

What I did mean to suggest was that all issues are essentially human issues, and that we should not be divided over gender, that's all. We should seek unity, not exclusivity.

Now, if I may wax a bit mystical, here...I believe that all humans are both male and female in their soul or their spirit self. The truly balanced human is one who utilizes the male and female archetypes in harmony and equality within him/herself. If so, she/he will not see any reason to divide humanity up into competitive gender camps, nor will he/she see any reason for a "war between the sexes" (what a ludicrous idea!).

Have you tried to use a teeter totter that has only one end...or only one rider? Doesn't work.

A man shows his male aspect outwardly, and has his female aspect hidden within, unseen. A woman is the reverse image of that. They fall in love with each other partly because they are seeking unity with their own inner self all their lives, and generally not finding it. They make the mistake of looking outside themselves all the time for it, but personal completion is found within. That's why it says "Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven, which is within, and unto you will be added all things". When you have done that...freed your inner, then you can love others in a truly effective and harmless manner, without staking a claim of ownership on them.

Aside from that, of course, there are the obvious biological imperatives to reproduce the race, and there's a hormonal charge to drive that imperative. All well and good...vive la difference!

The male and female spiritual aspects I spoke of previously are not hormonal in nature, and they are found in a potential form in all individuals. From them arise all forms of behaviour and attitude archetypes.

It's clear that far more men are songwriters, producers, arrangers, and guitar players than women. This is partly cultural in nature, and it's partly a result of the typical male archetype...which wants to express outwardly into the world, in what may be termed an aggressive (or a creative or an adventurous) fashion. The female archetype wants to nurture inwardly, in an unseen fashion, receive and take inwardly from the world of outward manifestation. All well and good.

The fact is, most people are heavily influenced to not be aware of their inner, their other self. So, most men deny and suppress their female aspect, and most women deny and suppress their male aspect. They are taught to do that from an early age by parents and society. Accordingly, most females are denying their male inner aspect to the point that it gets in the way of them expressing outwardly as writer/poet/musician/producer/etc., while to the males it simply comes naturally to do that. What males have trouble doing is internalizing, empathizing, feeling, and nurturing.

But when the women do get free of their learned social conditioning and do start to express themselves....ay-ay-ay...ARE THEY EVER GOOD AT IT!!!

I admire them like I admire the stars in the sky.

Hey, sophocleese! How ya doin' anyway? Some women are better singers than their male counterparts, but I agree it's debatable...we'll have to chew it over sometime, if ya can spare the time from your busy lifestyle. Come on out to Finnegan's next week and see Rick Kane perform.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Bert
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 12:01 PM

Naemanson, Have you tried the local singer/songwriter clubs. In those I've belonged to the women usually outnumber the men.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 01:34 PM

I don't think we have any such thing in this area, Bert. I'm pretty well tuned in to what is going on and I haven't heard of any.

Do you know something I need to know? I'm always open to suggestions.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Margaret V
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 11:34 PM

Naemanson, I hadn't really thought of the guitar-swiping as dominance per se so much as presumptuousness that a woman would be less serious or committed to the music she was making and therefore it would matter less to her to let go of the guitar for a while. Actually, all the guitar players at this session would be easy-going about sharing their instrument for a song or two (it's the accordions that really matter at this session anyway!). But you know, the optimistic view is that my Gibson is much cooler than all the other guitars in the room! And by the way, if I'm ever in Maine can I sing at your coffeehouse?

Flattop, I hope you included some Jane Siberry and some Holly Cole on that compilation tape. Thanks for your Faithfull perspective.

And Little Hawk, it sounds like you've spent a lot of time thinking about important issues. Here's a thought for you to mull over: many feminists find it just as sexist, oppressive, and inaccurate when womankind is credited with superiority in particular traits as when they are denied the right or the ability to possess certain other traits. So while some feminists declare that women are, for example, nurturing, intuitive, nonviolent, etc. -- all good human qualities -- others would say that's a bunch of nonsense and only serves to reinforce gender expectations for "female" behavior, thereby limiting women. So in reading your first post in which you say women songwriters are more subtle, expressive, and articulate, I worry a little that despite good intentions you might still be seeing women through a filter of assumptions rather than as individuals with all the range of characteristics on the spectrum from so-called "masculine" to "feminine" as plausible personality traits. Does that make sense, or am I falling down on the articulation job?! It's actually an issue that has caused a lot of ideological conflict among feminists, but has broader applications to both sexes.

Margaret

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: MichaelM
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 11:50 PM

I know several broad-minded educated women who, while claiming to have no blind spots in their view of the world, hold it as a moral and righteous good that they only read books written by women. They claim that male writers have nothing to say to them.

I can no more claim that women writers, song or literature, have nothing to say to me than I can claim that the sun and moon pause in their courses to await my pleasure. Arrogance!

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 11:55 PM

Margaret - I'm sure we all see everything through a "filter of assumptions". Feminists do that too. I'm certainly well aware that I do.

It is not so important to determine whether something is "sexist", as to determine whether it is true. And whether it is helpful. Things that are helpful to all of us are preferable to things that help a few at the expense of many...or many at the expense of a few.

If men were to form interest groups called "masculinists", I would avoid them like the plague. Do you follow me?

It is entirely evident in nature that female animals in a given species act quite differently from the male animals in a number of ways, both obvious and subtle. This is very beneficial for all concerned. Ditto for human beings. Any political movement which attempts to deny all forms of innate gender characteristic in people is some kind of artificial dogma that has decided to force reality into its mould. You see that sort of thing happen in very extreme political systems whose intention is not to liberate, but to enslave people. Certain forms of Communism, for example...or certain cults here and there.

Men sometimes treat women badly, women sometimes treat men badly...I've seen plenty of examples of both. Men treat other men badly and women treat other women badly. These are not sexist issues, they're human issues.

We are presently at the tail end of a patriarchal phase in civilization that has lasted several thousand (maybe even 15 thousand)years. There was a long matriarchal period that preceded it, but we have only slight information about that, passed on through very old traditions, and kept alive by such groups as Wicca.

I believe we are on the cusp of a whole new phase, where man and woman will be equal partners...not the same...but equal. Together we hold up the sky. I hope I live to see it blossom forth, because that will be the best thing yet seen upon this planet.

These are the best answers I can give you tonight.

Best wishes,

George

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 11:58 PM

Well then Little Hawk, maybe I took up the Banjo to bring out my masculine, chauvinist, redneck, Godfearing side that I never have had the opportunity to express.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Margaret V
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 12:58 AM

Yeah, but Little Hawk, it's also entirely evident that both men and women exhibit a wide range of behaviors. Any attempt to deny that is an attempt to oppress. We are of course animals, but as a species we have made many, many choices about what sort of animals we want to be. We aspire to shine like the stars in the sky, to borrow a phrase, so in general we try not to do things like rend live prey into shreds with our teeth and claws, or abandon our runts -- my point is that it is not always useful to draw exact parallels between animal behavior and human behavior. Margaret

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 10:40 AM

Hey Bonnie - Ha Ha! I would respond that to be masculine is NOT to be chauvinist or redneck...those are cases of misusing one's masculinity. As for "Godfearing"...that expression in its original vernacular meant "God-respecting"...fear had nothing to do with it. Unfortunately, it lost something in the translation to Olde English...or in the changing use of certain words over the last 10 centuries.

All Native Americans (prior to the arrival of the Whites) were very respecting of God, the Great Spirit...or the Great Mystery, as they sometimes called it. The women evidenced this attitude just as much as the men. There was not one single atheist in the entire length and breadth of this land in those days. Atheism is a response to religious oppression of people by an insane church.

Margaret - the general public presently rends its prey into bloody shreds by proxy...they have a slaughterhouse somewhere do it for them, and then they go to the supermarket, where the bloody remnants are all nicely wrapped up in cellophane for them and died red with red pigment number whatever. This is denial, and it is ignoble in the extreme. At least the animals do not enslave their prey in giant prisons before devouring them.

Quite a few people do abandon their runts...to the streets or to the television. See the results.

There is unaware barbarism all around us, in service to the dollar and the gun.

Are we civilized? Yes and no. We could be a whole lot more civilized than this.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 11:10 AM

Well, I was not really trying to stir up any grief, but I am surprised that so few problems have been brought up. I must assume from this that:
1) Women are not demeaned or ghettoized in the folk/blues world;
2) Women get paid equally with men for equal work;
3) Women have equivalent power in producing, getting studio jobs, festival venues, etc.
4) Women can take up any instrument or kinds of music without it seeming strange or a "novelty" act;
5) Women get equal billing.

This strikes me as completely different from the rock music world and in country music (about which I know nothing more than what I read in the papers). Is it because everyone is so poor in folk music? Or is it really part of the ethos?

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Margaret V
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 11:18 AM

Agreed, Little Hawk, which is why I've been vegetarian for almost twenty years now; I've always figured that if I couldn't face up to doing the killing myself then I had no business partaking . . . my point was that we have ideals for what we'd like to be, even if most of the time we don't reach our aspirations. And those aspirations, those conscious choices and reshapings, siftings and distillations, become a part of a constantly shifting human nature (or natures, I should say, since I believe that cultural differences are actually hugely significant; I'm not one who believes that everyone's the same underneath it all). I certainly didn't mean to imply that animals are barbaric and humans aren't, or anything that simplistic, though I understand why my post might have been interpreted that way.

Meanwhile back in the realm of folk music, does anyone else want to weigh in on Peter T's original question? I'm afraid we've drifted a bit far afield, for which I apologize! Margaret

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: rangeroger
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 12:17 PM

Several years ago, Pam Tillis got together with Mary Chapin Carpenter,Rosie Flores,I believe Bonni Raitt, and a few more ladies, and formed a group called "Pretty Good For A Girl". They were awesome.

I feel they were trying to draw attention to the stereotypes in today's country music, but they also had a good time making good music together.

rr

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 12:19 PM

and women also have far more attractive underwear

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 01:09 PM

Well Peter, with the short period of time I have been playing the banjo the only statement of yours I can offer an opinion on is......
4) Women can take up any instrument or kinds of music without it seeming strange or a "novelty" act

I have had only positive feedback from everyone who finds out I am playing the banjo. At the most someone maybe surprised but at the same time they think it is marvellous and they feel inspired to go off and do something artistic themselves.

I sense in the future I will most likely not run into problems with the other statements you have listed.
I think it has to do with my attitude. I am seldom confronted with existing pressures that some women feel such as exclusions, or assumptions about what they can and can not do?
I tend to not see there is an issue and therefore I am not confronted with one.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Alice
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 01:32 PM

A quick search of the net yielded a student essay titled "Is There Sexism In Music?" (answer, yes). The bibliography includes:
Buzzarte, Elizabette " Advocacy: Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra" IAWM journal, June 1997, p3-8

Buzzarte, Monique " We need a Man for Solo Trombone", IAWM journal, February 1996, p1-5

Fleischer, Tsippie "Is There a Future for Women In Music", IAWM journal, February 1995, p19

Ferjutz, Kelly "Women of notes" suite 101-Classical music articles, CFM/5849 p1

Osborn, William "Art is Just an Excuse: Gender Bias In International Orchestras", IWAM journal, October 1996, p6-14

Pool, Jeannie "The Passionate Pursuits of Musical Women, "Feminism, Unity, Advocacy" IAWM journal, October 1996, p6-14

Ponzio, Diane "At Last a Guitar Designed Specifically for Women", The Sounding Board, Vol 2 January 1997, online edition p1-2

Thompson, Diane NOVA Online, (an editing quote), December 1998

Worland, Gayle, "Clara Boon, Pioneer in Music Publishing, ILWC journal article, June 1997, p26-28

The author notes that instrument manufucturers, such as guitar manufacturers, cater almost exclusively to men; in ignorance they ignore developing the large market for women musicians.

I think that Margaret made some excellent points. In my experience, the men often dominate sessions in numbers and often in personality. It was the first thing that struck me when I went to our local session and listened for the first time. It was obvious that the group of women sat back and waited for the men to take the lead, except for the humble woman accordionist who is well respected as a musician and a quiet force in the local folklore society. She was the strongest presence among the women I watched, probably because she was the strongest female musician there, and the others did not have the time to practice and develop skill. I felt like some of the men were taken aback when I joined and would show up with the expectation that I would be included equally. It isn't something that some men are comfortable with. I don't know why. Generally, the women with families are home with the kids on Sunday night, and the men are taking time for themselves to go play at the session.

This topic is filled with the danger of backlash, because terms like feminism have taken on political connotations in academia that many women who once called themselves feminists, like myself, don't agree with. There is almost a cult of feminism that has formed in academia, and the movement of some to denigrate men in their attempt to find equality for women is really disturbing. I once bought into the notion that being a mother was not as important as having a career. When I saw the end of my childbearing years approaching, you can bet that I realized it was much more important to me to be a parent to my son while he was growing up than to build up social power or money. I realized that creating the next generation of human beings and instilling good character in my child was a greater creativity than any painting or song I could create. I am an artist/musician second and a parent first. I think there are men who feel this way about being fathers, too, and it is hopefully not only something that women are beginning to acknowledge more and more. Have I been paid less than men in equal job positions? Absolutely, all my life.

The stereotyping of men and women is just as destructive as the stereotyping of races.

Alice

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 02:06 PM

Margaret V - "guitar-swiping as dominance" You may be right. I only know that I have seen similar situations and the woman appears to be exected to give up her instrument and, at least once, the male borrower was in no hurry to return it. Fortunately most of my experiences in song circles and the like have treated the women participants with respect and equality.

Alice - "I think there are men who feel this way about being fathers, too" Count me in there! I have a special friend who told me less than an hour ago that my kids are special because of there father. I am a parent first and a career employee third. (Music has to fit in there too.)

Peter T - I have been working in coffeehouses and concert series for five or six years now. It's been my experience that your points, at least in the venues I've been working, are all true. I repeat them here:

1) Women are not demeaned or ghettoized in the folk/blues world; 2) Women get paid equally with men for equal work; 3) Women have equivalent power in producing, getting studio jobs, festival venues, etc. 4) Women can take up any instrument or kinds of music without it seeming strange or a "novelty" act; 5) Women get equal billing.

Unfortunately I cannot speak to Point 3 with the exception of the concerts I have worked.

However I would like to point out that the people who organize most of the concerts in this area are women! The director of the Chocolate Church is a woman as is the resident and chief organizer of the Bath-Brunswick Folk Club. The person who originally started the Side Door Coffeehouse is a woman and the person who runs it now is too. We all put great emphasis on featuring women whenever possible. There are many women performers in the area but they are vastly outnumbered by the men and they don't play out often enough to get into our venues. Tonight at the Mocha Cafe I know of only one woman who will be there specifically to perform on her own. The others are partners or supporting friends.

Anyway, we all agree there is a lot of work to be done to right the wrongs that women face daily. The problem is that we are not the problem. And we have limited power to push the solution. But we need to keep trying. I want my daughters to have a good fulfilling life without too many obstacles. Please wish them luck.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 11:35 PM

Good stuff, people! We have managed to avoid flying off the handle here, and brought forth some very valuable comments and insights. Margaret, I particularly appreciate the things you have said...well thought out and well put.

To get back to Peter's original question...I think on the whole that women (and people in general) are given better treatment in the folk field than in most other styles of music. I have seen song circles where the men dominated the situation...those were usually in bars, and they were not what you would call a "folk" scene at all. I don't see men dominating anything in the Orillia Folk Society (Jennifer Ives is probably our most active and influential member, all things considered).

There has been an extraordinary increase in the number of superb female singer-songwriters lately, both in the folk scene and in music generally.

I actually think that men are in a bit of a slump lately in this respect...partly because I think men in general are so utterly confused about what is their appropriate role in society (and relationships) now that they are downright demoralized. I kid you not. I've had numerous conversations with other men about this very problem. I'm not demoralized, but a lot of my cohorts are. How about that, eh? They say that the only people you can make jokes (and I don't just mean nasty jokes) about any longer are blondes (maybe...) and white males. Extraordinary, isn't it? There's a whole lot of paranoia out there.

Alice - I agree, being a parent is the most important thing a person can do (and the most challenging). Nothing else matches it...not being a president, a general, a CEO, nothing. Parents deserve far more help and recognition than they get from this society. They no longer have the extended family to help them, as was the case in so-called "primitive" cultures.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: GUEST,Scroggin
Date: 12 Aug 00 - 11:40 PM

Whilst I can't comment on women's issues in "folk" perse, I can comment on my own experience as a woman around musicians over the last 25 years - it seemed to me that women were fairly marginalised in the group I hung out with during my early adult life.

In retrospect it is kind of suprising, because I was in that mix of early post-Vietnam days; we were into discarding the past generations beliefs, and dreaming of our own utopia. Dope played a fairly big part in it all, as did the arts (especially music). Instead of re-inventing role stereo types, I think we just re-phrased them. The lads would go off, have a joint, play music whilst us women kind of rolled over, baked them nice things to eat, took care of the kids and sang privately in our kitchens.

The lads were "serious" musicians you see and we were their dotting audience. I think you had to be a really strong woman to make it musically then.

It's very pleasant now to finally "come out" and my standing on a stage to sing also is a personal statement of self validation.

I suspect the folk world is also less ego driven, and accepting of all.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 00 - 10:16 AM

Yeah, dope played way too big a role in everything back then. It just got downright silly at times. I remember one guy who seemed to be quite incapable of discussing ANYTHING except different varieties of dope, the stone you got from them, where they came from, what they cost, yadda, yadda, yadda. He would go on for hours about it. He had a girlfriend who never spoke at all. She was like an animated figure from Madame Tussaud's. Perhaps she was contemplating suicide...or maybe her synapses had fused...from one too many foreign substances...who knows?

I love Joan Baez's comment on dope to the press back in 1965 or '66...she said "It's silly to make marijuana illegal...but of course, it's silly to smoke it too." This remark infuriated both the hippies AND the estabishment. Way to go, Joan!

No offense to those of you who like to toke up. I have no objection to it, I just don't choose to myself most of the time. Can't be bothered.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: GUEST,Scroggin
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 02:51 AM

Enjoyed your comments 'Hawk - yes, I see a huge difference between occasional use versus abuse too.

Although some may see this as thread creep (and worthy of its own thread maybe) for me dope, early music days ("daze") and gender roles are inextricably linked.

I think the egocentrism of our late teens (we in the middle class west are generally privileged to be able to enjoy an adolecense after all) was compounded with another layer, where dope was prevalent.

When one is very self absorbed (stoned, whatever) it is a big dealto encourage or support other musicians, unless in doing so it supports your own ego trip. Still, I can't hear music like ISB without an edge of nostalgia for those balmy summers, smoke and communality (before I went off to bake more biscuits of course). They weren't all bad days, and submission was my choice and part of the dynamic too.

Subject: RE: Women's Issues in Folk Performing?
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Aug 00 - 06:36 AM

Margaret

Thank you for your contribution. It reminded me of this post of mine Here.

I realised to my shame that I did not point out that the guitar was borrowed from the only female musician. Although there were many male guitar players present.

I will cerrtainly notice and mention such things in future.