BS: What happened to Common Sense?

Subject: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:42 PM

I was just reading about the flooding in Kent, England.

I remember when I lived there years ago and they were building the Thames Barrier. I said THEN that, all it would do would be divert the flood water up the Medway.

Now why didn't THEY know that?

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:13 PM

Bert: You can send them to school and buy them books but that doesn't mean they'll learn anything. Speaking as an American, we see these kinds of blunders all the time, everywhere. We have a military that will spend $400. for a hammer. Not to mention a government that will not seriously research developing alternative fuel sources so we don't have to depend on some Arabian sheik's good will. That doesn't speak highly for the condition of the gene pool. Take heart and know that the stupid shall abide with us alway. Pull up a chair, fix a long cold drink and join as we laugh at them. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:15 PM

Oh, I thought this thread was about Thomas Paine. Sorry, no common sense I guess.
Bert, To whom did you say that?

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:25 PM

To anyone who would listen. Unfortunately one rarely has access to those in authority, and even then most decisions are made for political reasons.

On another occasion in Colorado, a truck ran into a local bridge and caused some damage. As I am a boilermaker, I could see that the amount of damage was trivial. It could be fixed quite easily with just a few hours work. I was horrified when I read that they were replacing the whole bridge. So I made contact with the authority concerned and offered to fix it for them. Of course they didn't want to know, the contract for the new bridge was already signed. This was two days after the accident. I bet they charged the whole bridge to the driver's insurance.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:26 PM

So Bert...Have you read the "McDonald's McStrip" thread yet?

I know what you mean though......I had a freind who had a rental house and was sued by the guy living next door. You see my friend's house had the misfortune to break a water line during a period of heavy rain and when the neighbor's basement filled with sewage (from the backed up storm sewers, he sued my friend for damages. The only kick here is that the neighboring house was 25 foot higher uphill than my friend's place and his basement floor was a full 30 foot above the water line break. ....not to mention 4 days of rain. The judge ruled against my friend proving that shit runs uphill.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:31 PM

Yes it's amazing what these 'judges' decide isn't it.
There was a case a few years ago down south where some new evidence proved the innocence of someone in jail. The judge ruled that 'new evidence' wasn't sufficient a reason for a new trial and so the poor guy stayed in jail.

So you're right 'shit runs uphill'

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:36 PM

I'm always amased to see the number of people who choose to live in a flood plain...a woodchuck knows better!

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Midchuck
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:45 PM

Yes, we live on one of the highest points in our village.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: khandu
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:45 PM

Hey, and I am not a well known high paid musician, and look at the no talent bums who are! Go figure> But seriously, folks; look at the candidates for the presidency. They come up with their plans for a better world,and yet their plans are built upon principles that have never and will never work.> As a wise man said, "You can't polish a turd!>khandu

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:49 PM

Isn't it frustrating to know these things? On a dead mans door, you can knock forever.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:49 PM

The soil in an alluvial plain is too good to be wasted. Floods were common but managable along the Medway until they built the Thames Barrier.

The area where I lived had been inhabited before the Romans came.

The reason they built the Thames Barrier was that the south east corner of England is sinking at a rate of about a tenth of an inch a year. They just didn't think about (or didn't care) where the water was going to go.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 05:48 PM

Engineers (and lots of others) are not necessarily paid to think. Only to solve the immediate problem, and hang the consequenses. Long range planning? Hells bells, just look at the whole planet!

Yes, I know quite well that shit runs uphill. That is exactly why I was soooooo scared about Bubba Luke's latest go 'round. It at least, came out OK.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 05:57 PM

bert - Have you read the book, The Death of Common Sense? It was popular a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: GUEST,noname-nocity
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:06 PM

a few miles out of town they were widening a 2-lane road to 4 lanes and for some unknown reason dug down 3 to 4 feet below the level of the previous roadbed. They had already finished several miles of 2 lanes of the new ASPHALT ROAD and were about to open them to traffic and begin work on the opposite lanes.

Fortunately the Highway Inspector happened along and saw it and had A CONNIPTION FIT. Anybody but a fool could see that it would FLOOD at the first rain and probably take weeks to drain.

SOLUTION: Quickly haul in HUNDREDS OF LOADS of ASPHALT and BUILD IT UP to its previous level. [layer on layer on layer]

TO COVER UP THE BLUNDER: They scattered loose dirt on the side of the asphalt roadway making it appear as only the top layer of asphalt was there.

GO FIGURE!

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:13 PM

Haven't read that Mary. I'll have to look for it. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:23 PM

"As a wise man said, "You can't polish a turd!" (khandu).

Oh yes you can, Scarab beetles do that kind of thing for a living, fortunately for the rest of us. You can read about it here

As for the Thames Barrier, simple explanation. The Medway is outside Greater London. And floods there aren't as costly as floods in the City and so forth would be.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:31 PM

bert - I found it at BarnesandNoble.com (Be sure to use the MudCat link.) Or do what I do, check your local library, and if they don't have it, get it on interlibrary loan. You can get all the details at BarnesandNoble.com

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 08:12 PM

What did they play?

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 08:33 PM

I'm not sure if common sense ever existed Bert but one that seems related to your original comments was a conversation I had with someone in a pub who worked for a company of Consulting Engineers. He commented that it worried him that the newer generation of graduates coming into his business were just taking figures from calculators and computers with no consideration as to whether these figures were yeilding results somewhere in the right ball park or not - computer/calculator says this so it must be right - no question of possible wrong input, worng programming, assumtions, etc.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: John Hindsill
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 09:20 PM

Was it Mark Twain who said, "There is nothing so uncommon as common sense."?

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 09:40 PM

(dick here) Common Sense is a well-known oxymoron. In the same class as Military Intelligence, Giant Shrimps, Legal Ethics and Working Press.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: bflat
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 10:46 AM

It became a Cafe in Katona, NY.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: GUEST,Sam Hudson
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 08:18 PM

Looking at the news film of the floods in the south east of England, and remebering that we're told that water levels are going to rise because of global warming, how on earth will the umpteen-thousand new homes destined for that area stay dry? We build on the flood plains and replace water-absorbent soil with tarmac and concrete, and then complain about the water running through the living room. Common sense went out of the window years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: bflat
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 08:25 PM

Or is that a Cafe in Port Chester, NY? Anyway it seems to be in decline among the earth's inhabitants.

bflat

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: GUEST,Penny S(working?!)
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 04:56 PM

Actually, Bert, this wasn't a sea-flood, though it was at the spring tides. About a foot of water arrived on the High Weald within 24 hours and poured down straight off the clay hills. When it got to the floodplains, it hit the new estates and the tarmac. It was a very unusual rate of flow, quite different from the old floods (I lived in Tonbridge as a child, and remember the birds on the sportsground. The flood barrier had nothing to do with it. This time. At Maidstone, the flood was fairly well contained, but upstream at Yalding and other plain settlements, it was very bad. One guy from a new house on the FP complained that it was the third flood this year, and something should be done to prevent it. I don't know where he thought they should put it. There isn't anywhere to build containment barriers. Those above Tonbridge were inadequate.

In Sussex, where a lot of the Wealden catchment drains into the narrow gap at Lewes, the water was 20 ft deep in Harveys brewery. The lifeboat crew came up from the coast with an inflatable, and to everyone's horror, it was sucked under the bridge. Five of the crew leaped up to the balustrade, but one slipped, fortunately to be grabbed by a colleagu and rescued.

Although the sea-level rise threatens the SE, and the Thames Barrier will not last far into the next century, this was due to the increase in weird weather. The expected damage will be greater than in the 87 windstorm - more people live on the plains than hilltops. anyway, the SE is not sinking. It's just that the sea is going up faster. (Unpublished thesis of a friend.)

Penny (above the water level, and not too much rain)

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: GUEST,Penny S
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 05:15 PM

We've just had another 20 to 40 cm forecast. Right where the last lot fell.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: sophocleese
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 06:17 PM

Well here in Ontario I have to admit to wondering if I'm judst missing something, or if others are. There is a proposal to ship Toronto's garbage up to the now depleted Adams' Mine in Kirkland Lake. I really haven't heard very much of the environmental/technical aspects(Peter T. could probably give us a whole lot more data) but this is what I have heard so far one day on the radio.

No water is coming out of the mine. It is so big it is still filling up with water.

With no water coming from the mine there is no danger of contaminated leachate getting into the surrounding water supplies.

Therefore it is possble to fill the mine with garbage and not damage the local area.

Have any of the people suggesting this ever left the tap running in the bathtub with the plug still in? What was the result after 1 minute? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? and 10 minutes?

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: poet
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 06:42 PM

I love it when people get on their favorite hobby horses immediately a disaster happens and cry how they told them so. However in this instance the thames barrier was built before any one had heard of global warming and extreme weather conditions so pardon us older generation who do'nt have any more crystal ball than you do today. I thought the thames barrier was a good idea. GUEST PENNY well said that fact is it pissed down with rain (1month in 1day) and England was not expecting that. So stop knocking the system, you could not do any better.

Graham (Guernsey)

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 07:14 PM

Graham; Point well taken but i understand the frustration. WHile the Thames project may indeed be a good idea, the "rocket Scientists" come up with their fair share throughout the world. For example: Here in America, in Johnstown Pennsylvania to be exact, rich sportsmen dammed a creek to provide a lake for thier fishing pleasure. A few years later, the heavy rains resulted in the Johnstown flood. Reason? It seems these would be "philanthropists" plugged the sluices to keep "Their" fish from escaping. Greed, and ignorance were in abundance. Common sense was nowqhere to be found. Hundreds died for that little excersize in greed and stupidity. Keep the faith, hopefully they'll do each other in and not the rest of us. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 07:42 PM

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen" - Albert Einstein. But then, what would he know about it...

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Max Tone
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 07:46 PM

I take it BS stands for BullShit that has nothing to do with Music. Go away! Rob

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Jock Morris
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 09:27 AM

Max Tone,

BS stands for Breeze Shooting, but bullshit is close enough. Seeing as you started a thread looking for a lonely hearts column (heartsearch) I reckon you've got balls of solid brass complaining about this non-music discussion. Lets have some tolerance, please.

Scott

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Bert
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 11:43 AM

Penny, thanks for the detailed info on this particular flood. We don't get all the details aver here. And the SE is sinking. It's all due to plate tectonics. England is tilting. The NE is rising and the SE is sinking. Roman London is now many (I think about 20) feet below sea level.
Poet, The weather changes due to global warming were predicted way back in the Fifties, long before the Thames Barrier.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 01:20 PM

You really want to know what happened to common sense? Well, a few years ago an Ontario politician named Mike Harris co-opted it, made it his personal possession, used it as a slogan to get elected, and then proceeded to dismantle and destroy our public services, shut down our hospitals, close mental institutions and turf their inmates out on the street, eviscerate the school system and alienate the teachers (causing many of them to quit teaching and look for a less stressful career), and so on...

His procedure...divide and conquer. Offer the credulous public a "tax break" in order to sucker them into voting for him. Demonize already powerless people like single mothers, homeless, and the unemployed. Favour money over people whenever making any decision, proving that yes folks, life really IS ABOUT MONEY (which Mike has always had plenty of, thank you very much...the old "I'm all right, Jack" routine...).

Want to know about common sense? Just ask a neo-conservative anywhere, and he'll tell you all about it. Money talks, poor people walk...if they still can, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 01:42 PM

One of my sisters neighbors decided that the best way for him to make his backyard larger was to fill in the drainage ditch in back of his house. He was shocked and suprised when the whole neighborhood flooded when the next big rains came. Also shocked and suprised at the reaction the neighborhood gave him when they found out what he did. His reaction was that "a man's got a right to do what he wants with his own property".

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 06:34 PM

OK Bert, there is a tilt, not due to plate tectonics, but to the land readjusting after the Ice Age loading to the north, and it does apply a down force to the SE.

The plate tectonics side is more complex. If you go back to the Cretaceous, you find that the SE was below sealevel. Since then, possibly as a distant reaction to the impact of Africa on Europe, it has been uplifted. There is no identifiable mechanism for reversing this process. There is more recent evidence for uplift. Next time I talk to the author of the thesis this is in, I'll ask him if I can write more.

This does not alter that fact that the Thames and its floodplain are threatened by the global sea-level rise.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Ritchie
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:37 AM

Common sense A.Hickman-Smith, Nosmo King & Ernest Longstaffe (1938)

When trouble looms around you and danger lies ahead; When your faith is almost shattered and your hopes are nearly dead, There is always something left you - and it's not a mere pretence, View your difficulties calmly - and use your common sense.

When there's talk of strife and danger and rumours fill the air, When the facts are so distorted, that your views become unfair, When mere trifles get so magnified until they seem immense, Just forget your party politics - and use your common sense.

Other folks have got their troubles and they've got their point of view; And it's not in human nature -, all to think the same as you. Try to see things from their angle, - listen in to their defence, And you'll come to agreement, - if you use your common sense.

Though we're given brains and judgement - quite a few of us I guess Let others do our thinking - and with borrowed views impress Many other thoughtless people - who as a consequence, Believe the things they wouldn't - if they'd used their common sense.

Life is far from easy, tempers frayed and feelings sore; Because the world is suffering from an aftermath of war. Rationing, controls and queues have grown to be immense! When they surely could be lessened - if we used our common sense.

Now the clouds have all departed - and there's brightness in the air, And once again instead of strife - there's gladness everywhere, Now the gloom of yesterday has gone - the feeling of suspense, It is because when things looked hopeless - SOMEONE USED HIS COMMON SENSE!

Amen & Regards, Ritchie

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 11:40 AM

That last verse there rings a bit hollow if you look at the date it was published...Very mnuch the feeling in the air I belueve in the false dawn of "peace in our time" after the Munich Crisis...

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 11:54 AM

Actually Mac, considering the date as you say, ALL of it has a hollow ring to it. Matter of fact, if indeed common sense is granted, then I think we must also infer blindness.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Troll
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 12:02 PM

Most people lose what little commonsense they have at the prospect of making a buck without having to work for it. This is why politicians can get away with the things they do: because they have convinced gullible people that THEY will make money on the deal.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Terry K
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 07:01 PM

Way to go Kevin, three very apposite observations; I think you have this thread sussed.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Rollo
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 11:10 PM

Northern Germany sinks as well as a result of the ice ages, and we have to rise the dykes on a regular basis.

now consider this famous tv star living in a big bungalow on the sides of river elbe near hamburg. she didn't want to have the higher niveau dyke between her house and the river because of the scenery, so they built a flood wall on the inward side of her estates. So far, so good, there is a whole colony of houses placed between the flood wall and the river. they all have gates which have to be closed on flood alert, in order to protect the inward land. It's their decision, so what? But not this ole crone... when next flood was prognosted she demanded in earnest the gates to be kept open so the water could run into the marches behind the dyke and her house would not get flooded. When community authorities refused this she parked her car in the middle of the flood gate to prevent it from closure...

Rmember, this person is a famous german tv star and likes to be titled "mother of the nation".

Subject: RE: BS: What happened to Common Sense?
From: Ely
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 12:07 AM

Don't get me started on people who live on flood planes. Houston floods all the time and people live on flood planes because the land is cheap (gee, I wonder why), but they don't have flood insurance and beg for help when they get washed out, and then they rebuild their homes in the same spot. It's enough to drive one crazy.

Speaking of floods (see Johnstown, Pennsylvania, above) 2000 is the 100th anniversary of the Galveston flood, worst natural disaster in US history (6,000-8,000 killed). Will it happen again? Well, there is one bridge linking Galveston Island to mainland Texas (I'm guessing the ferry would not be running in the event of a hurricane), and it would require a minimum of 36 hours to evacuate ONLY the people who live on the immediate seacoast. That is, assuming there is no other traffic, assuming the rest of the island stays put.

I love Galveston, but I think I'll settle for occasional visits.