BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked

Subject: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:23 PM

let me apologse, in advance, to any of you are offended by this thread. I know it is a divisive issue and that we have many from both sides and in the middle of this issue. Please do not read further if it bothers you.

Having said that, I am extremely pissed(US) off that Bush has wasted no time in immediately going after women's rights. How many fucking years do we have to fight for the right to govern our own bodies with the guaruantee that that right will always be ours? Being at the whim of any tom, dick, or harry who gets into office really makes me want to take to the streets, again! And, of course, he has to go after the poorest of the poor women in developing countries first:

Bush To Block Abortion Funds By Sandra Sobieraj Associated Press Writer Monday, Jan. 22, 2001; 10:51 a.m. EST

WASHINGTON –– President Bush has decided to block U.S. funds to international family-planning groups that offer abortion and abortion counseling, a White House official said Monday.

The action, which reverses a Clinton administration stance, will be among the first policy moves of the new Republican administration and was leaked on the same day that abortion opponents staged their annual march on Washington.

"The president does not support using taxpayer funds to provide abortions," press secretary Ari Fleischer said, refusing to speculate on any final decision to reverse the Clinton administration's position.

"It's an important issue," Fleischer told reporters. "Executive orders are possible at any time."

But a White House official, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed that the decision has been made and the executive order will be issued soon.

U.S. funds to international groups that support abortion had been blocked by former Presidents Reagan and Bush, in what became known as the Mexico City policy because it was announced by Reagan at a 1984 population conference there. President Clinton, an abortion-rights supporter, had restored funding two days after he became president in 1993.

Also on Monday, Bush was delivering a statement to anti-abortion activists marching on the capital to mark the 28th anniversary of the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision that legalized abortion.

The written statement would be read, Fleischer said, by Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J.

Asked why Bush wasn't delivering the statement himself, either in person or by telephone, Fleischer said Bush chose the manner in which to deliver his message and it "signifies that he has an important statement to make."

The politically and emotionally charged issue of abortion promised to test Bush's ability to deliver on his oft-repeated promise to unite Democrats and Republicans.

Since the election was decided, Bush has answered questions on the issue with a relatively tepid reminder: "As you know, I campaigned as a pro-life candidate."

But while he may not himself engage in the sound and fury of the activists who back him, Bush has nominated a staunch abortion opponent for attorney general, former Sen. John Ashcroft, and signaled swift action to reverse Clinton policies supporting access to abortion.

White House chief of staff Andrew Card served notice Sunday that several key abortion policies would be quickly reviewed by the Bush administration.

Asked about the recently approved RU-486 abortion pill, Card said, "We're going to take a look at all of the regulations. We're going to take a look at all the executive orders."

As for what the president might think of first lady Laura Bush's recent statement that she does not think Roe v. Wade should be overturned, Fleischer said Monday, "It's a personal matter."

© Copyright 2001 The Associated Press

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:41 PM

I'm sure that George W will personally adopt all of the unwanted children that will result from his actions.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:45 PM

Give him a year, Kat. Sales of wire coat hangers will outsell plastic. Poor women will die. Women who can afford it will travel out of the country. Or wealthy families preferring discretion will fund the trip. Meantime one smug bastard will be preaching birth control while another calls it sin. I think I am going to be sick. I spent hours and hours going through the "Blue Books" reading one horror story after another of beautiful babies who were burned, beaten, disfigured, raped, and worse by parents who didn't want them. If abortion is outlawed, who is going to adopt these children? Mind you they are not lily white. Where are all those parents desperate for children that I keep hearing about?

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:50 PM

AH! so THAT'S why he called for a day of prayer.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:50 PM

Well DUH! We knew this all along. See why I didn't vote for any of these nuts?

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 12:51 PM

We knew it was coming.........brace yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:10 PM

Yeah, Wesley...:-)

Sins, those people who want babies? They have ads in our paper in Wyoming everyday of the week, all year long because, of course, they know Wyoming is so white.

Matt, I thought you said you didn't think voting was worth it. Did you vote? If so, good for you!

It gets worse...at a Republican farewell for Clinton, i.e. "roast" Cal Thomas lauded Bush for bringing a "controlling moral authority" back to the White House and that goddamned bastard Bob Terrel of the "American Spectator" said he wasn't going to toast Clinton a farewell, rather he wanted to toast the Reverend Jesse jackson "for what he has done to propogate the race."

And these are the kinds of moral authority we are supposed to follow, that of bigots and racists????!!!

From Sunday's Meet the Press:

MR. ROVE: "Well, President Bush is going to do what he said during the campaign, and that is to build a culture of life, to find ways to make abortion less prevalent in our country, to make it more rare. He's going to look for ways to encourage respect for life, whether it's the life of the unborn or the life of the infirmed or the life of the elderly, and he'll seek opportunities to build that culture. Some of those actions will be actions using the bully pulpit, some of them will be policy. But the decisions-about making the decisions about whether or not to challenge a statute or a decision will be made at the White House."

So...it's a Culture of Life we're building?? With this asshole?

Where are we going to find the energy to fight this crap?

Thanks for listening..

kat

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:17 PM

add to this all the efforts he is making to undermine and overturn environmental rules and legislation so that the holy **BUSINESS** interests will be protected, and it is shaping up to be a LONG 4 years.

You want to drill for oil? Build a logging road in a wilderness? Seek relief from restrictive pollution laws?,,,Now's your chance!!!

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:22 PM

Just an observation. I saw a can with a host of bumper stickers the other day-I live in a college town- and I couldn't help noticing the apparent contradictions of the following collection.
" Pro-Choice." "Choose The Vegetarian Option" "Peta" "Love Animals. Don't Eat Them" "Abolish The Death Penalty" "Meat Is Dead"
Am I the only one who sees the contradictions here?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST,guestguestguest(intruder)guest
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:25 PM

:::from the tall grass:::

uh-huh, uh-huh, i said bottom feeder, i meant bottom feeder.

:::looks for taller grass:::

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:27 PM

Yeah troll, I saw one today on the way home, on the back of a female ECU student's car that said "Pro-Life: Protect the Rights of Unborn Women Too".

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST,Cheryl
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:28 PM

Kat, I sympathize with your feelings. Resign yourself to the fact that for the next 4 years, your f**ked and that there is nothing you or anyone else can do to reverse these policies. Hope and pray that during the next 4 years the economy remains stable, that there is no nuclear war or terrorist attacks on our country, that OPEC doesn't start another oil embargo, and that the status quo will more or less prevail. Then in 4 years, hope that the Democrats can get their act together and put forth a candidate with charisma, intelligence and intellect who CAN win a clear majority of the vote and defeat these Republicans who seek to send America back to the dark ages of their hopelessly outdated brand of morality and ultra conservatism. (Hilary perhaps?)

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:30 PM

Also, on my friends (fellow ECU students) have bumper stickers such as "Vegetarians, They Just Taste Better" and "Kill 'Em All" (Metallica album lol).

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:33 PM

You see the paid-off local bottom feeders
Passing themselves off as leaders
Kiss the ladies, shake hands with the fellows
Then it's open for business like a cheap bordello
And they call it democracy.
---Bruce Cockburn

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:35 PM

The contradiction in "Pro-Choice, Vegetarian, anti-death penalty" would be apparently about the same as "Pro-Life, Meat eating, pro-death penalty". The main difference would be when you define 'life' as beginning. If you define life as beginning at birth (or late in the pregnancy, when the fetus can live if removed from the mother), then the first does not contain any contradiction. The second however... Is a criminal dead at the moment he's condemned to death?

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST,guest(intruder on lunch hour)guest
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:35 PM

metallica stole that line from st dominic ---

"kill them all, god will know his own."

but my favorite is a group who CAN'T keep their own self-proclaimed rules setting themselves up on experts on how my life should be lived.

:::buys a gun, becomes sullen and suspicious of strangers:::

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:39 PM

Something that has disturbed me a great deal for some time now is that the religious right is SO GOOD at getting coverage that many, MANY people assume that religious = right = oppression = VERY BAD THINGS. They have put the bucks into ensuring coverage of their point of view.

The tone and extent of prayer that kicked off the inauguration really scared me. I winced, and I cringed, and I got mad, and I thought about it a lot, and I still am.

It scares me, first, to know the religious right (RR) is about to get us all, and second, that those of us who are R but not R will have a hard job to be heard and to help make change within the atmosphere the RR generates.

I feel like my voice of moderation and diversity and tolerance, already too small and quiet, has just been stolen out from my very breath and co-opted for a purpose I cannot place within my own moral compass.

I feel like jumping in the car to follow Big Mick and make it all stop as soon as it can be stopped. But I have to tend to my own patch here, or who will?

Make no mistake at least about where I stand, which is where I have stood all this time despite what anyone here assumed about me. I stand for all the choice we can think of having, for the personal responsibility that goes with these choices, and for people being there to help each other through the feelings and realities that are the result of our choices.

I stand there despite knowing from my own memories what the life of a fetus is and means, and despite holding all of human life precious. Because our free will is MORE precious. Without it, we are not human, and without being human, we can have no rights at all.

For those of us who are Christians, we must remember that free will is the first way in which we are made in God's image. We tamper with others' free will at great peril.

I'm going to be talking about that quite a bit in the coming months. Right here in the midst of Republican, conservative, rigid, north central PA... as a pastor's wife who has a certain place in the community, although it is supposed to be a very quiet place. They're gonna get me for it, too. And you know, it would be nice to be able to be here at Mudcat and explore these sorts of things without getting it from "friends."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:46 PM

Then, Troll, we need to come up with slogans like: Every Child a Home; Open Your Heart to the Unwanted; Want the Unwanted; Money for Programs; The World will be a Better Place When Every Child is Wanted...

Somehow the same people who want to outlaw abortion across the board also want to shut off the money for the programs that make it possible to educate, support, intervene.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:53 PM

Susan, right on!

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 01:59 PM

ebbie, exactly on the slogans...what sense does it make to take away money to fund BIRTH CONTROL in third world countries, etc. by anti-choice idiots like Dubya? They can't have it both ways. If they don't want abortions to be prevelant, they need to make damn sure every woman and man has acccess to any and all birth control options.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:05 PM

Actually, I think alot of folks were praying that he won't fuck things up too royally....

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:18 PM

Oh, is that the annual winter day of prayer and unity we been holding all over the country for years? I heard he co-opted that too. It's one of three all-community services here, each year.

There goes the careful work our ministerium has done over the last seven years to make it safe enough for all the local congregations to participate.

Fortunately some of us doing the trench work at the local level have a grip on what we are doing, and maybe we'll be more effective than I'm figuring. I'll have to ask Hardi if last night's service even mentioned Bush or his agenda.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:21 PM

Kat, please take a deep breath: you don't really expect these a**holes to make SENSE, now do you? You never did before.     ;-)

Hope the jackasses that actually believed the "uniter" and "compassionate" crapola are starting to see the light, however belatedly, & are feeling a bit foolish & won't get fooled again in 4 years.

'Til then, "You Aint Seen Nothin' Yet!!" And the Dem's that are gonna roll over on their backs and approve Ashcroft should be drummed out of the party- bunch of Gutless Wonders.

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:25 PM

"Every Child Is Wanted"
If only...

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:26 PM

*SIGH* anybody read Carolyn Hax (Tell Me About It)? She asked someone "what crawled up your [bleep] and died?" My question is, who died and made the US the only knower of what is Right? I am reminded of the attempt to outlaw that stuff some Arabs in the Gulf were chewing (this was back in the gulf war days) because it has mind-alterning effects - I remember even more the Letter to the Editor about it, asking if the US personnel had decided to outlaw this "on their coffee break, their cigarette break, or their beer break" - I mean, opinions are OPINIONS, not facts! Not TRUTH! The fact is that I am pro-choice, but that doesn't mean that I believe it to be a fact that a fetus isn't a human being. I just define a pregnancy as a woman's body part, till it isn't any more. And I also believe that the anti-choice position is wrong. But I wouldn't say that it IS wrong, only that I believe it to be so!

Now, if only I could get my Mom to think like that... THEN I can begin work on the rest of the world!

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:37 PM

And to the MEN who I warned about their support for the green party... I TOLD YOU SO!
No passaran... Adlante!
Salud
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: BlueJay
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:41 PM

Well, here we go again. Some years ago, when asked about the breaking news that Nixon had died, I said: "Once Reagan goes, my life will be complete". I guess that makes me a liberal. Ought to be an interesting four, (eight?), years.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:46 PM

Susan,

The RR uses the exact techniques of intimidation that you describe to great effect. Just like an extremist of any flavor. They rely, in part on the fact that most people are too polite and not willing to go to the mat with them. Try calling them a fascist bigot. Literally. Accuse them of being Un-American and quote the Constitution at them. Very effective (in my experience) at places like the PTA or in church meetings because then you have labeled them and they have to defend themselves. The best defense against them is really a good, offensive, offense.

Kat, I don't think Bush can do a lot about Roe v Wade directly. Congress could, but probably won't. Baring Congress passing a law banning abortion (that would almost mandate Supreme Court review), I don't see it happening. And I hope and pray I'm right. I suppose they could orchestrate a case and make sure a series of very conservative ideologues push it up the Court ladder to get it to the Court. The Court hasn't seemed all that willing to address the issue.

What I think he will do is pressure the FDA to reverse itself on the morning after pill, and use executive orders to limit access and funding as much as possible without actually banning them. Not that that's a lot of comfort.

A question: Why does the moderate conservative cant "except in cases of rape, incest or to protect the life of the mother" give them the moral high-ground? Coming at this as an insensitive male, I can understand the life of the mother: The other two I think I would have trouble with if I was anti-abortion. Incest has a higher probability of birth defects but that arguement leads to a subset of eugenics. Rape has significant and severe emotional/physical issues for the woman but that's not the fault of the unborn fetus. If abortion is, in their view, taking the life of a human being, why are the exceptions allowed and accepted? Morally as opposed to politically or practically??

The distinction always seemed hypocritical but rarely challenged.

In general, Bush is a pragmatists. He may pay lip service to the far right and do what he can for them. But not go out of his way for them. What he will do is push Big Business issues. Further limits to the right to bring suit. Requiring higher levels of proof for an employee to bring suit, deregulation and limiting corporate liability. Drop the Microsoft suit and so on.

Regards

John

PS: The sad part about the contradictions found on bumper stickers is that the people who own the car don't see it

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:54 PM

Am I the only one who thinks that a Presidential call for a day of prayer is unconstitutional?

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 02:57 PM

It'd be an interesting call, Bert... Considering our President Selected was running on a heavily religious message, he COULD claim that it's time to end the separation and let Jesus be president for him. Probably do less damage that way.

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:00 PM

Hmmm. I suppose, Bert, you mean it's against that part of the constitution that goes, "Congress shall make no law respecting the institution of a religion..."

Don't see the Prez mentioned there.

alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:05 PM

Ebbie, I agree with you.We have a case here in my county. They are willing to build a new juvenile detention center but not to fund the staffing of the youth centers.
DON'T get me started on adoption. We tried to adopt. Yeah! Right!
Those who support the death penalty and are anti-abortion seem to me to have a more logical stance than those who oppose the death penalty and support abortion. One side says that a criminal should die but an innocent unborn should live. The other says the child should die and the criminal should live.
kat, just what right does our, or any other, government have to go into another country-often unasked-to give out birth control and/or abortion information? In the places that we have meddled before such as the Sahel (Southern Sahara) our efforts have resulted in over-population and the subsequent desertification of the area. We need to study what the possible results of any kind of social or medical intervention will be BEFORE we sent aid of any kind.
Yes SeamM. The problem is one of definition. When DOES a life begin?
Re: Roe vs Wade. Bush cannot repeal it. Only Congress could do that by passing a law repealing it. The Supreme Court has repeatedly refused to reconsider it and if Bush appoints non-ideologues like his father did, I don't expect them to in the future.
Ishall now retreat to my cave, roll the BIG rock in front of the door, and await the ....well...the whatever.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:07 PM

Unless they slow down when they go back there to the rear to stick their heads up their asses.

Skeptic, thanks for validating my view in some respects, but I get more mileage out of being a subversive friend. Think of me as a warm, liquefying suppository up the butts of the worst assholes. When I love someone really well, accurately, they begin to chafe at their own rigidities. It's the slow way but I get a lot more done that way. They come to me after the kind of attack you describe for comfort... and find me, smiling, but expecting them to actually THINK. Very sneaky. Then they go off and start infecting others the same way. It's pretty amusing if I can see it happening, sometimes, and deeply satisfying.

Underneath all that rigidity is usually a terrified screaming infant trying to remain human. It's the ones I can't keep close to because I am outnumbered that get me... so I try to work up some partners in the effort, first off, to spread things around.

I'm just discouraged about it. I do actually know how to do this work and when the time comes to speak boldly I usually can't resist doing it no matter what it feels like will happen as a result. I'm not quiet these days because I am intimidated as much as because I have not been terribly well. I'm just tired, and not at what I know has been my best, and haven't figured out yet how to do it even smarter.

There IS a place for the approach you describe, and others have the gifts to take that approach. Mine just lie in doing things one on one most of the time, until I gain a visible role that facilitates positive exhortative speech to inspire and energize the good guys while I continue to build background alliances with the "bad" guys. I don't use these gifts as well as I should, but they are the ones I have.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:10 PM

John the Skeptic, thanks for your comments. I don't think Bush can do much to Roe vs Wade, yet, nor does he. His spokesperson on Meet The Press was quite blatant about how they knew the mood of the country would not allow that right now, but that through his "Culture of Life" propoganda they are dead set on changing that.

Guest, Cheryl, sorry I cannot resign myself to that for the next four years. If we all did that, he would definitely get what he wants. Thanks for your comments, though.

GrefF, thanks, darlin'...guess I needed a reminder, eh? Still won't shut me up, though:-)

Maybe I'd better take that deep breath and think about What Would Buddha Do.....

kat

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:14 PM

I tend to be a bit firm in my beliefs but THIS is ridiculous. I have NO idea how it happened.
Very Sorry.
A highly embarassed

troll

Nothing a JoeClone can't take care of; extras deleted.
-la joeclone -

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:18 PM

Oh, I think you liberal women will still be able to get your recreational abortions. Bush is just going to make you pay for you own, instead of socking it to the taxpayers!

If any of you haven't figured out how to prevent pregnancy, maybe you shouldn't be having sex yet. See your doctor.

No offense.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:20 PM

The 'Cat is moving kinda' slow troll....I think you got the rock parked on the submit button.

Outside of that, just get me enough drugs to last at least 4 years. Troll, don't get me started on adoption either, but if we reduce the options and have unwanted kids......................Adoption laws are changing, they're just not changing fast enough to suit me and the problems of attitudes are lagging even farther back.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:20 PM

Troll, what I see is that you just keep saying the same thing over and over again. [grin!]

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:21 PM

I don't know exactly Alex, but I seem to recall someting about separation of church and state.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Matt_R
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:23 PM

Mandatory vasectamies for all male babies! That'll teach us evil raping impregnating bastard pigs!

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:27 PM

Bert;

The issue is as Alex states above, that there shall be no law regarding the institution of a state religion etc. etc. etc...

It's a dodgy issue at best, as it all comes down to a matter of opinion for the most part... at what point does requesting a 'moment of prayer' go from being a personal gesture and become a governmental declaration? I suppose that Bush's prayer would all be considered 'personal gesture', as long as he does not try to mandate mandatory prayer via executive order or what have you.

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:38 PM

Yes - only Congress can repeal Roe vs. Wade. The giant BUT is that there can be no access to legal abortion if the clinics and doctors are inaccessible or unprotected. I don't see this president or his soon to be attorney general offering the necessary protection. The "abortion" pill is next to come under Bush scrutiny. A relatively private abortion alternative. Anybody taking bets how quickly it will be banned "for our own good"?

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:38 PM

'Spaw, I know about your adoption problems.
The funny thing is, they will PAY you to take the kid at five or six- who has been damaged badly by foster homes and being shuttled around the system- that they won't let you adopt as an infant.
Same kid, same parents, same agency.
GUEST, Thanks for your input. It would make more of an impact if you would sign your name.

troll **A. Nonymouse is not one of my favorite people**

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:41 PM

Susan,

The problem with your way is that all to often, by the time they realize what flaming assholes they are, the damage is done. My experience says it usually takes about 18 months for most people to run the cycle. By then, the rules have been changed, procedures put in place and doing it right after its been screwed up, takes, as the dictum says, twice as long and costs twice as much.

The RR feeds on its sucesses and ignores those who recant. As they view themselves as good people, clearly whatever they believe and want must also be good.

Doing it your way is probably more in keeping with your personal values, for which congradulations. Most people do nothing.

Regards John

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:44 PM

How absurd:

1st woman: Oh, what do you do for recreation around here?
2nd woman: Me? Why I go get an abortion, just for fun!"

Sure, let's have complete celibacy...sure would solve a lot of environmental issues, too. Long live Mother Earth!

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:45 PM

Here's how it was reported..."Mr Bush's first acts in office were to issue the new White House code of conduct and declare yesterday a "National Day of Prayer and Thanksgiving" for Americans to pray for leaders at every level of government."

This seems to me to be going beyond a personal statement. His 'act' - 'in office' was to tell Americans to pray.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:52 PM

Hadn't heard about the "National Day" part. I'd be inclined to agree - that sounds on the same level as school prayer, which has been shot down as a violation of separation.

"Freedom OF religion" should always take into account "freedom FROM religion".

M

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Troll
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:55 PM

I must have missed the Storm Troopers in the streets taking those who did not pray away to a fate worse than death.
I thought he was asking the country to pray. Thanks for setting the record straight.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: Skeptic
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 03:57 PM

Another problem that's come out dealing with adoption is that a child who's has been socially ignored during the first 1-6 years of life have a much higher probability of fairly serious behavior problems. It looks like social learning, like acquiring language, has to happen in a certain sequence and during fairly limited developmental periods. If not, there is a permanant gap and dysfunction that is difficult, if not impossible, to overcome.

Troll - re your comment to Guest. After reading between the lines of your comment, mega ditto's. And may I add to Guest "Thank you so much for sharing that with us."

Regards John

PS: There is so slight consolation in that fact that a lot of us, over the next four years, will have plenty of opportunity to say "Told you so". Ain't much but take what you can get.

Subject: RE: BS: And the assault begins....BUSHwhacked
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 04:07 PM

Troll,

There are no stormtroopers, but the criteria that has been used in the past is that the separation is violated when a public institution creates a climate that expects a religion (i.e., a period or day of prayer). For those who do not profess a religion or are devoutly athiest, this creates an inimical atmosphere towards them.

That is how classroom postings of the 10 commandments, mandated school prayer, etc. have been found to be in violation of this separation. And that is how I feel GWB could possibly be seen in violation of this as well.

Note that this is not my personal view - I wouldn't give a rat's ass if he decided to announce a day of devout religious two-stepping and ritual bigass belt buckle sacrifice. However, within the "Great Big Book of Things That Have Already Happened", he may be in violation of precedence.

M