Too many strings on a guitar?

Subject: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 01:34 PM

I have played guitar for over 30 years. I now prefer to play the bouzouki, which although it has eight stings, they are set in four courses, so in reality there are only four differntly tuned strings.

I realised that I had always been unhappy with the six differently tuned strings of a guitar.

That ringing sound that I love to hear when I play the bouzouki, I have never been able to obtain on guitar, or hear other far more skilled players obtain on guitar.

Does anyone share this view or understand what I mean?

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 01:36 PM

I only have four fingers so four strings would seem to be logical?

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 01:43 PM

Oddly enough I think we may have an agreement here Shambles. (:<))

I think you may like it for the same reasons I prefer 12 string guitars to six. There is something in the octave combinations or something that brings out the wonderful harmonics and fills things out beautifully. Maybe that's not it, but its a place to start.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: UB Ed
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 01:46 PM

Shambles, what's the tuning on the bouzouki?

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: GUEST,DrWord
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 01:47 PM

That's why god invented the tenor guitar

+ if you love that ringing sound, try the longer-necked (closer to guitar scale) "octave mando" or gittern or any of the four-course (or four pair) stringed beasties.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 01:47 PM

What does a 12 string guitar tuned to something like DADGAD sound like?

Jon

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Bert
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 01:50 PM

Let me get this straight. Sham says "four fingers so four strings"
Spaw agrees with him.

BUT SPAW plays the Hammered Dulcimer. So How many fingers does Spaw have?

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 01:50 PM

UBEd, there are several tunings used. GDAD is popular for "Irish" type playing.

Jon

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 02:00 PM

Bert as you well know, the only use for fingers on a Hammered is as a pincushion that the running end of the string pierces repeatedly when you string them. This also allows a nice pattern of blood drops to decorate the pin blocks and the soundboard.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 02:13 PM

Bert - We really don't like to talk about Spaws many deformities here. Just the fact that his personality is exposed to us is bad enough.

I know what you mean about a zouk. I've been looking for that sound for many years and I'm expecting the delivery of an octave mandolin soon. But I doubt that I'll give up my guitars. There are some songs that are just going to sound better on an old Martin { or whatever... }. Tell us about your zouk - what kind is it, scale length, tuning, ect. Thanks. Wesley

PS - Have you heard Citternalia by Steven Sobel yet?? Amazing stuff on a 10 stringer tuned DGDGD

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 02:16 PM

Jon F... listen to your Stan Rogers CD's and you'll hear his 12 string tuned to DADGAD lots.. like Marry Ellen Carter on Home In Halifax... they sound great.. but are even harder to keep in tune...

Generally, ya I do kinda agree... The standard tuned 6 string guitar is really sort of a feeble instrument... if you're unsatisfied that way you can either experiment with other instruments, or try different 6 string tunings... They really help your average 6 string to ring...

;-)

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 02:21 PM

Well, I don't know if this is related... but I know a guy who tunes his guitar so it can sound like a mountain dulcimer. Can you not tune a guitar to sound like a bouzouki? Would a different type of strings make a difference? I don't know enough about bouzoukis or mandolins of any kind to know.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Bert
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 02:45 PM

Ah Spaw, you're right about the fingers, perhaps I should have asked "How many HAMMERS do you have?"

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: GUEST,Carol's Friend Don
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 03:16 PM

I've been using a Dropped D tuning on my Alvarez 12 string for years (get at least a .56 on the bass E and try an Ernie Ball .24 plain for the octive). Use a Keyser Dropped D Capo (about $15 'merican) on your selected fret and use a regular Keyser 12 string capo two frets lower to catch the "dropped" bass string. I call it "Dropped D in Any Key" and it works great. The Dropped D Capo has a rounded cutout where the bass string runs through it, and was originally intended for 6 strings. However I used a Dremel tool (small drill) to grind the cut-out larger for the double course strings, and now citterns want to have my 12 string's children. Try this configuration playing Dm positions in an Em song and you'll never go back.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 03:18 PM

I agree with the original post about bouzouki playing being more satisfying (and easier!) than guitar. For years I mostly played bass guitar so I never really got used to 6 strings. I've toyed with guitar for years but I didn't really keep at it enough to become competent. I've only had the bouzouki a couple of years, but I now realise I should have got one years ago.

My bouzouki is double strung (rather than ocatve strung). So why do I prefer this? I dunno.

Kim C - Andy Irvine plays a guitar-bodied bouzouki with a deeper fatter sound than the usual bouzouki. Bouzouki strings are the same as guitar strings.

Les

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: John of the Hill
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 07:12 PM

Wesley, Tell us about the octave mando you have on order. I have a 10 string 25.5" scale cittern I usually tune DGDGD and often capo at the 2nd fret. I sometimes wonder if I might have been better off with a 4 course instrument. It took me 20 years to become a mediocre guitar player, maybe I can cut that to 10 on the cittern. John

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 08:08 PM

6 strings leads directly to bar chords, which are a bit of a pain. Perhaps it is a case of not enough fingers we have here. Gotta talk to those geneticists and see what can be done about it, cos I like 6 string guitars.

- LH

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 06 Mar 01 - 08:54 PM

I have played guitar for over fifty years now and it has always been my favorite instrument. It seems to lend itself to many styles of music. If I had a choice of only one instrument to play it would have toe be the guitar. Then there a great number of chords using open strings that require no fingers. Then there are a few chords that can be played with just one or two fingers. Some bar chords only require one or two fingers.

The thing that really bugs me are bowed instruments like the fiddle. Here you have four strings and can only play two at any one time. I did see a fellow put the bow under the fiddle with the hairs on top (I have no idea how he accomplished this feat) and was able to play all four strings at one time.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 01:46 AM

I used to buy Bouzouki bubble gum. It came with a comic strip about Bouzouki Joe. Made OK bubbles, too, but not as good as Swell. If you pulled on it with your fingers while you were chewing it you could make a string, but it got kind of droopy.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: GUEST,C mart
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 03:32 AM

If my fingers were the diameter of pencils with an extra knuckle in there someplace, and I had an extra finger on each hand I might be able to play guitar. As it is little short stubby fingers are not suited to being a master...

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: GUEST,Steve Parkes
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 10:39 AM

Shambles, the whole point of the guitar is youu can play chords easily because the interval between the strings is so small (4ths instead of 5ths, so 4 fingers = 4 frets). 6 strings gives you a decent range (2 octaves on open string) and lets you play bass & melody at the same time. Mandlin-type instruments, on the other hand, are great for melody. I know, 'cos I play both equally badly.

Steve

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM

John - The instrument I have on order is being made by Davy Stewart of New Zealand. I ordered it last July and it's being built as we speak. Indian rosewood, Italian spruce top, 22 inch scale, herringbone trim and some celtic knots for fret markers. It's his deep bodied model. I've never played one of his before { just one of his mandolins } so it's a leap of faith to order one.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 12:57 PM

I forgot to mention that with the current rate of exchange with New Zealand my octave mandolin should be less than $900.00 American. That's a pretty good deal.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 01:41 PM

The standard tuned 6 string guitar is really sort of a feeble instrument. . . 'Fraid I can't agree.

When it comes to versatility, it's hard to beat a guitar.

I've also been playing guitars for about 50 years, and I cheated early on by taking classic guitar lessons and I practiced a lot. The result is that I can play simple thumb-strum accompaniments with first position chords, more complex stuff (a la Richard Dyer-Bennet) if it seems appropriate to the song, or if the spirit moves me and I have a good tail-wind, I can still do a fairly decent job on Tarrega's Requerdos de la Alhambra. I took five months' lessons from a real Flamenco guitarist back in 1962, and I can still tear off a briskAllegrias from time to time (even though a Spanish gypsy would probably sigh and roll his eyes). I'm also a halfway decent fingerpicker. I don't play blues or jazz, but a lot of people do.

All this time I've used classics. My fingers are fairly long, but my hands are a bit on the beefy side. I can't handle a standard steel-string neck. It feels to me like they've tried to cram six strings onto a toothpick. But even on a classic, I agree with GUEST,C Mart that an extra knuckle would come in handy.

I love the guitar. It's a rich, full instrument with the same musical potential as a piano, capable of playing anything from gut-bucket to Bach and back. But I'm glad not everyone feels the way I do. Nothing but guitars could get pretty dull.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Boredatwork
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 03:47 PM

Shambles, there is a way to make a guitar sound a lot like a bouzouki. Tune it (from low to high) CGCGCG. This tuning uses the same intervals as the common ADAD bouzouki tuning - just lower and with an extra string both above and below where the bouzouki stops.

I actually prefer it to playing the bouzouki for a number of reasons. It is easier to reach the higher notes in many tunes because they fall in first position on the high G string instead of having to go up the neck on the bouzouki's high D. You can play many tunes in higher and lower octaves by just changing the string you start on instead of changing fingering positions. The bass notes add a dynamic that the bouzouki does not have.

On the down side, guitar E strings do not like being repeatedly taken up to G and then back down to E. A new 11 guage string will break after two trips. An extra guitar that can be dedicated to this tuning and strung with custom guage strings is a good idea. Also, not too many Celtic tunes are played in C so the first two frets are pretty much always on the wrong side of the capo. For most guitars, capoing at the seventh fret (key of G in this tuning) is about as far up as you can go without the heel getting in the way. So, tunes in A pose a problem. I solved the problem by buying a Wechter Pathmaker which is an acoustic double-cutaway on which the neck meets the body at the 19th fret. Capoing at the 9th fret is no problem (but it does get to sounding more like a mandolin than a bouzouki). I do occasionally tune my Guild 12-string to this tuning and it sounds remarkably like a bouzouki, but it usually involves a string sacrifice as I only have one 12. If I ever see a good deal on a used 12-string Wechter I'll doubtlessly succumb to another bout of G.A.S. (Guitar Acquisition Syndrome).

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: John of the Hill
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 06:27 PM

Wesley, My cittern is a Stuart. Davy was a delight to deal with, my only regret is that the exchange rate has gotten even more favorable than when I ordered mine. I think you leaped in the right direction. John

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 06:51 PM

I suppose we could all play the piano like Liberace if we had 88 fingers. Yet he only had 10.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: jofield
Date: 07 Mar 01 - 08:28 PM

Sorry, as an old crank, I have to pronounce my opinion of 12-string guitars: too many strings.

...unless you name is Huddie Ledbetter.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: ddw
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 01:08 AM

Too many strings? Whatta buncha wimps! So you guys want four strings to go with your four fingers? Can I suggest it would make world of difference if you MOVED those fingers?

;>)

david — doing reasonably well with just four short, fat fingers....

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: jofield
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 01:15 AM

Oh, it's not the strings-to-fingers ratio that bothers me. It's that jangly, bangly, rarely-in-tune "churchy" sound of the 12-string guitar.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 05:12 AM

I think Liberace used his elbows.........

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 10:11 AM

If only he'd stuck to using his fingers he might still have been with us!

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: GUEST,willie-o
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 01:25 PM

6 strings is just right...it's what ya do with what ya got! And you can get nice octave sounds either by using dadgad or with a little practice in standard tuning (start by playing the G string open and your pinky on the third fret, high e string...move up the fretboard, and learn to slide around like that. It's very juicy. You'll sound like george benson in no time. )

course, 8 is great too...

w-o

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Extra Stout
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 08:50 PM

Hey, Don Firth. I used to see a Detroit area rock band with a large fingered lead player who played a 12 string guitar with six strings on it. It seemed to work for him. The band's name was probably Catfish Hodge.Or maybe that was the guy's name.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 09:28 PM

well, you could phase out. You know--guitar to 5-string banjo to uke/bouzouki/mando family to balalaika to two-string bow (that's the one mentioned in Frankie and Johnnie) to washtub bass to bodhran.

If you wanted to.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 02:08 AM

Ah the stringless banjo or the green tambourine, as I have heared it called recently.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 02:13 AM

Actually it was my first instrument. I will leave others, better qualified to judge if I have progressed to better things?

My dear old mum got these funny looking drum things from a jumble sale in about 1957. We had no idea what they were or how they were supposed to be played. They seemed to fit in fine withour family skiffle group though.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: GUEST,Rhythm Man
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 09:31 PM

Hi, you guys out there, I agree with Capt'n Bob. OK I am another Bob. I've been playing guitar since I was 15 and want to say this, There is nothing that sounds better than a good Gibson or Takemine Acoustic Guitar. They have a rich tone that is not to be surpassed. For example, if you want to hear a Gibson - listen to the '64-'67 Beatles music. And for the Takemine just ask or listen to any of the Nashville and LA session players, and - about 90 % of all touring bands use Takemine as their main stage guitar.

Enough said. Rhythm man

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: GUEST,GLENZO de MagPIE
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 08:36 PM

HI... i have had this feeling too... why oh why was a 6 string
thrust on me when i was young.. it has bin a frustration festival
too long too long...

the simplicty of the zook really makes sence to me musical mind
i have the feeling the zook with its 4 courses four horses
easier to play intuitive more beautiful to listen to is going
to be the next big thing in 200 years or so

mark my words the 6 strings days are numbered

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 12:30 AM

Big secret about a 6 string instrument -


















you don't have to play all of them at once.

























I discovered this when playing my 88 string piano .....

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 01:11 AM

No comment.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: iancarterb
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 01:38 PM

Don Firth, you have expanded the traditional ratio of communication between picture and words to infinite, since division by zero is axiomatically forbidden. :) Fine picture!
I am surprised by the absence of reference to a part of the second sentence in this thread way back in 2001: "I now prefer to play the bouzouki, which although it has eight stings, they are set in four courses, so in reality there are only four differntly tuned strings." This would be on a good day, and that would apply to all the double strung instruments- poor tuning is common, and perfect tuning so that all the A notes are perfect multiples of 440 Hz or perfect unison, for instance, is rare, especially at the end of a tune. The slight beat from having 440 adjacent to 439.95 imay even be a part of the ring on mando family instruments. Certainly the sympatetic reinforcement of harmonically related noted is greater with more strings. The fallacy in all of the back and forth is that, technique being equal, the body of the instrument will trump everything else - one note by Pablo Casals or Yo Yo Ma is equal in presence to anything Andres Segovia OR Leo Kottke could do. Greater or lesser is in the ear of the listener.
Carter B

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 06:58 PM

"The slight beat from having 440 adjacent to 439.95 imay even be a part of the ring on mando family instruments"

Even with the strings tuned in perfect unison I find that when fretting one string of the pair will often bend differently to the other resulting in a pitch difference. Perhaps my left hand technique needs some work but I think this slight difference is what gives paired string instruments their character.

Subject: RE: Too many strings on a guitar?
From: GUEST,auxiris
Date: 18 Oct 10 - 01:03 PM

Why not try a tenor guitar?